CAP 29 - Part 4 - Typing Discussion

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So there are three typings that I read here that interested me more than I thought they would, and then I have one more submission of my own to make after. I won't be explicitly quoting or answering Quziel's questions, but they are all kept in mind when working on these, particularly questions C through E.
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One typing that I really liked the sound of here was dex18 's Ground/Flying. I initially thought that Ground would be a rather poor typing to use alongside Color Change due to its poor weakness/resistance distribution w.r.t. self-resisting types, but thinking about this one feels as though its a nice hybrid that makes the best of a few scenarios. The biggest red light is that big 4x weakness to Ice, but looking at who we can or cannot safely switch in against at the moment, this only really effects two choice locked Pokemon, Kyurem and Syclant. At the cost of turning these matchups into mostly loses, we gain so much more.

One of the big threats of coming in against fighting types was the follow up from flying attacks from foes like Tomohawk, Tornadus, or even Hawlucha. The resist from Fighting paired with an enemy flying move sending us back to Flying will allow us time to set up and then take them out with our own SE Flying STAB. Likewise, the usually-neutral ground type that was extremely common is no longer a threat to us at all thanks to our immunity. The enemy is either forced to switch or to go through hoops just to hit us with a ground move, at which point we will have had ample time to set up and start sweeping.

The aforementioned Ground immunity gives us a significant amount of safe switchins against our currently neutral pool of mons like Landorus, Hippodown, Colossoil, or even Sheer Force Nidoking. Likewise, the combo of Volt Switch -> SE Ground is a non-problem since we are immune to the Volt Switch entirely. The only noteably dangerous switch ins we have are the universal CC bullies like Cinderace/Dragapult/Venusaur, Choice Ice Kyurem/Syclant, and water types that can follow up with SE Grass/Electric moves like Krilowatt (which are already a threat). In exchange we have a mountain of switch in routines that either let us setup or change our type to a far-less-punishable monotype thanks to Color Change. It is extremely unlikely that we can be revenge killed by Ice type thanks to Color Change, nullifying this typing's greatest weakness entirely thanks to our ability.
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The other typing here I think suits us really well is G-Luke 's Fairy/Flying typing. This typing has 4 self-resistant weaknesses and Rocks, which does put some strain on stats stage, or on partners that it wants to play alongside. For instance, a screen setter like Astrolotl is typically weak to Dragon or Ground moves, but being able to pivot into our Fairy/Flying Color Changer means that we would absorb any Dragon or Ground moves as immunities. Likewise, the screens severely downplay the threat of the 2x effective switch in moves, whose self-resistance means that they become 1/4 effective compared to their first hit.

Even without a partner, we can switch in extremely safely against the common Fighting or Ground moves that normally threaten color change thanks to our immunity and 0.25x Fighting move multiplier. Damage taken from that first Fighting move is extremely negligible that it would be as if we switched in for free, to the point where even the followup SE Flying/Fairy/Psychic move isn't a death sentence, and we can still safely setup.

The biggest flaw is that this is rocks weak, it is otherwise a perfect typing for a Color Change Setup Sweeper. In exchange, we have an immunity to all other hazards such as Spikes.
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The last one I was waiting to see submitted was Ghost/Electric, submitted by viol and bass. This combo has a few interesting combinations I like. Like the other two types I have here, it can switch in and setup safely against Fighting moves that normally punish Color Change thanks to its total immunity. Most of what I have to say was summarized by them in regards to how it forces extremely popular threats that typically bully Color Change like Tomohawk into submission without giving up on any of our good matchups other than arguably Hydreigon.

Being Knock weak sucks, and Close Combat followups can still hurt after a Knock Off. But this would more often than not come up after we have time to setup, and against mons that only have STAB from either 1 (Colossoil) or neither (Zeraora) of the moves. This typing leaves us with a lot of versatility in the movepool stage while also giving us a number of switch ins against Fighting/Electric moves where we keep our threatening STAB combo. This makes us very useful at not just checking threats that dislike Color Change, but also scaring a significant amount of normally frightening threats from Moltres to Dragapult. This pairs perfectly with any number of Pokemon that are afraid of Fighting moves (Equilibra, Blissey, even our own Hydreigon) generating a lot of safe switchins. Flying types also make for fantastic partners, as the opponent needs to make a decision between using an uneffective electric move against our Color Changer, or an uneffective Ground move against the original flier/levitater. (Again, Equilibra.)
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I also wanted to submit Electric/Flying as I feel it has a lot of relevant merit as well. I'll keep it a bit shorter compared to the Fairy/Poison post I made since this is already a very wordy post. Electric/Flying is similar to Ground/Flying as discussed above where it has a glaring weakness in Ice (albeit 2x instead of 4x.) Its only other weakness is to Stealth Rocks, like Fairy/Flying it trades for immunity to all other hazards. Both are also uncommon typings to see in general, meaning that we will be mostly taking neutral damage before changing type. Mostly.

There is one major interaction we have, which is with the Flying type. Because we retain our typing when getting by Flying moves, we turn that typing into a self-resistant typing. In other words, Hurricane spam that normally punishes this ability can't do that anymore. Additionally, we retain our Electric STAB, allowing us to immediately punish with an SE Electric move of our own. The only flying type this combo fails to work against is Cawmodore, but that's not exactly something we would switch into and survive to begin with.

Beyond that, everything I said about ground moves with the last two Flying types applies here as well, turning the incredibly common threat into a non-problem. The Volt Switch into Ground spam is also impossible since we keep our Ground immunity. Also I guess we are immune to paralysis, which is nice.
 
Hello, meant to submit this yesterday, but Life, ya know. Addressing Q 7 and 8 now, will tackle Q 9 later.

Submitting Poison/Steel.

7) What benefits does Color Change offer this typing?
a) Can this typing set up an Initial Weakness into Color Change Resist combination?

-Yes, its Fire weakness becomes a Fire resist upon Color Change activation. Fire is a strange type for 29 to deal with. Given Cinderace circumvents it entirely, Heatran traps, and as kjnjkmjk1 mentioned, a potential Lash+Tantrum Astrolotl set, Fire is going to be a problem for almost any typing we give this thing.
- Given reasonable bulk, other Fire types are going to have a tough time beating this. This is generally true for other Fire-weak typings just by virtue of CC. Things like Lotl, Moltres and +0 Volc don't quite hit hard enough to cause us undue trouble. Even at +1, Volc has difficulty unless it hits us on the switch.

- Strong Ground users take a big fat stinky poop on us. However, Ground coverage and weaker ground moves can be dealt with. The following cherry-picked calcs are based on a Poison/Steel Corviknight, which I think has reasonable defenses.

0 SpA Moltres Scorching Sands vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Corviknight: 200-236 (50 - 59%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Tyranitar Earthquake vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 176-208 (44 - 52%) -- 10.9% chance to 2HKO
4+ SpA Equilibra Earth Power vs. +2 252 HP / 252+ SpD Corviknight: 204-244 (51 - 61%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Melmetal Earthquake vs. +2 252 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 180-216 (45 - 54%) -- 43.8% chance to 2HKO

We can't come in on Ground moves (unless we're pretty fast). Moltres Sands and TTar EQ are dealt with by set-up + recovery. Melm and Libra can be dealt with if we set up on the switch to Melm/Libra, then outspeed and set up again. Lando? Chomp? Drill? Colo? Who are those?

Overall, Ground fucks us up. Also remains to be seen what kind of moves we will have access to that are able to hit these mons.

b) Can this typing set up a Initial Neutrality into Color Change Resist combination?
- Yes, this typing is neutral to Water, Electric, Psychic and Dark.
- Water: Useful for stopping scald spam, but Kril is annoying. Outside of rain, nothing hits strong enough with Water that the initial neutrality is a problem.
- Psychic: Glowking can't do any Future Sight -> Sludge Bomb shenanigans without hitting us with a third move first (thereby giving us an extra turn to set up). Future Sight neutrality is nice in general too. Other than Lele nothing is hitting strong enough that initial neutrality is a problem, and we 0.25x resist its other stab.
- Electric: Usually this is probably going to be Volt Switch, and most powerful electric mons aren't running ground coverage.
- Dark: Resisting knock off spam is nice. Hydreigon doesn't usually run Earth Power and we can set up in its face due to Draco drops. Nothing hits super hard with Dark, and not being weak to Knock Off is nice.


c) Does this typing offer consistent switchins, that is, Initial Resistance to Color Change Resistance interactions?
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I thought you'd never ask!! Our friend here resists Steel and Ice 0.5x, Grass 0.25x and is immune to Poison!!
- This is great for tanking strong Doom Desires and Flash Cannons, DIBs from banded Melm, Grass moves from Rillaboom and Kart, Sludge Bombs from Glowking and Ice moves from... Kril? Scylant?
- The 0.25x Grass resist is especially nice for shutting down Rillaboom (which is forced to run the suboptimal High Horsepower in order to beat us), and Kart (which can't chain Steel -> Fighting without hitting us with Fighting first).


8) What further bonuses does this typing offer (SR Resistance, Toxic Immunity, Burn Immunity, Spikes Immunity.., Ghost Immunity, Dragon Immunity) beyond its resistances.
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An SR resistance is super nice.
- Toxic immunity upon switch in is very nice too.
- 0.25x U-turn resist can come in handy. There is potential for using U-turn to change our type to Bug in order to avoid a switch in with a strong Ground move.
- 0.25x resist to Fairy is very nice, because Fairy is difficult to chain SE hits into (outside of Mage).
- Overall great resistances with Normal, Dragon, Steel, Ice, Rock, Flying PLUS 0.25x resists to Grass, Fairy and Bug AND extra extra Poison immunity.
- Steel type with neutrality to fighting is also very nice.
- Initial Dragon resist is nominally nice for switching in to Dracos.
 
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I just want to say that personally, I believe the supereffective to resistance interaction is being overrated. You aren't luring a supereffective move on switchin and why would you switch in on a supereffective attack when you could instead switch in on a resisted one. I think a much better direction to no is to keep our resistances after being attacked.

As you keep your typing after being hit by a type you have, dual typings have a huge advantage here. As do immunities. As being immune to an attack you switch in on let's you keep your typing for a bit longer as well.

I also consider immunities to self-resistant types to be bad synergy as you are removing one of the benefits of Color Change. Now, when I brought this up in Discord, it was pointed out to me that the benefits of ground blocking volt switch on switchin outweighs that and I was convinced and concede that, but I still think these are factors that should be considered. Far more than the factor I said was being overrated
 

Rabia

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I think the typing I can get behind the most other than my own very epic submission would have to be Poison / Water:

(apologies in advance because I might be poll jumping with some of the praise I give the typing)
I think my big thing with this typing is that it opens up the potential for some really low drawback moves; I could very easily see this Pokemon ending up with Sludge Bomb and Scald, and these two moves are really good regardless of whether they get STAB or not because of their secondary effects. This would be a very easy way to lessen the impact of Color Change changing our typing because these moves' potential doesn't really rely on their damage output.

The Toxic immunity is also really convenient. There are few things worse than having your defensive Pokemon poisoned as it switches in, and being able to mitigate that risk for at least a turn could end up being useful. Hell, even removing Toxic Spikes upon entry is a pretty good benefit; the only common Pokemon we have that currently do that are Toxapex and Galarian Slowking, and while they are by no means slouches, I do think another option to do so would be cool to have around.

Denying revenge killing isn't too bad for this typing; it isn't weak to Grassy Glide, resists Kerfluffle's STAB moves, only really worries about a potential Zen Headbutt from Cinderace, and isn't immediately weak to something like Dragapult. The main worry here would be the Ground weakness and how that lets Choice Scarf users like Landorus-T and Colossoil potentially feast, but that's pretty easy to prepare for in the teambuilder.
 
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I concur with the people saying SE>Resist and Toxic Immunities are overrated.

Sure, we might turn a 2HKO into a 3HKO, buying us time to recover and forcing out an opponent but that’s a mitigatatory effect not an advantage. It will always be better to Resist>Resist or Neutral>Resist than to SE>Resist. Which is why I’m confused by all the typings that tote their SE>Resist effects as an upside, when competing with other types that just Resist>Resist or better.

As for Toxic, that’s pretty much relying on perfect prediction. Most toxic-toting ‘mons have some coverage that will switch us off steel or poison. If they use that, toxic immunity goes away. So while it’s an upside, I personally think it’s incomparable to things like hazard resist/immunities.

Of the typings so far, I really like Steel/Flying. This is how you do SE>Resist right; a tiny number of weaknesses that all turn to resists plus a large number of resistances.
 

Zephyri

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I want to use this post to address a typing that I'm finding to be rather worrying with this CAP: that being the Poison/Water typing. Trying to utilize this typing would be directly competing with Toxapex, along with the plethora of bulky water types in the current metagame. We see that Toxapex gets less use in this metagame due to the prevalence of Slowking and Slowbro, I just want to ask: what makes us think another Poison/Water type would be any different?

Furthermore, we've seen with Snaelstrom that trying to make a bulky water when the metagame has an extremely dominant bulky water, and also expecting it to be viable is unwarranted hopefulness at best and ignorance at worst. This is also coupled with the fact that this 'mon will have a rather "inconvenient" ability, meaning that it'll be even more difficult for us to cement ourselves as a decent team pick.

There's also another quality about Poison/Water that rubs me the wrong way, albeit a subjective one, that is the neutrality to Grass. Rillaboom is easily one of our best matchups with Color Change, if not the best matchup in our arsenal. I feel like it's definitely something we should try and capitalize on with our starting typing. Rillaboom does a buttload to anything unresisted as well, so I'm doubtful we'll be able to counter it super well if we're neutral at the beginning.

To make this less of a downer post, I'll talk about a typing that I really like rn: Poison/Dragon
(will edit in the explanation cuz i'm lazy as shit)
 
I want to use this post to address a typing that I'm finding to be rather worrying with this CAP: that being the Poison/Water typing. Trying to utilize this typing would be directly competing with Toxapex, along with the plethora of bulky water types in the current metagame. We see that Toxapex gets less use in this metagame due to the prevalence of Slowking and Slowbro, I just want to ask: what makes us think another Poison/Water type would be any different?

Furthermore, we've seen with Snaelstrom that trying to make a bulky water when the metagame has an extremely dominant bulky water, and also expecting it to be viable is unwarranted hopefulness at best and ignorance at worst. This is also coupled with the fact that this 'mon will have a rather "inconvenient" ability, meaning that it'll be even more difficult for us to cement ourselves as a decent team pick.

There's also another quality about Poison/Water that rubs me the wrong way, albeit a subjective one, that is the neutrality to Grass. Rillaboom is easily one of our best matchups with Color Change, if not the best matchup in our arsenal. I feel like it's definitely something we should try and capitalize on with our starting typing. Rillaboom does a buttload to anything unresisted as well, so I'm doubtful we'll be able to counter it super well if we're neutral at the beginning.

To make this less of a downer post, I'll talk about a typing that I really like rn: Poison/Dragon
(will edit in the explanation cuz i'm lazy as shit)
I don't really agree with a lot in this post––the notion that any two mons sharing the same type combination are directly competing with each other is overlooking the fact that every Pokemon fulfills vastly different roles. I don't really see how toxapex competes for the same role that a bulky setup sweeper does. The comparison to toxapex is also disingenuous because we won't be water/poison for extended durations of time, only before we're hit by a move. I don't think we'd be competing with corviknight if we're steel/flying, or heatran if we're steel/fire; this logic doesn't work very well. We will ultimately fulfill a radically different role than any Pokemon we share our type with, and any similarities begin and end at what our typing will be for the first move we're hit by.

Snaelstrom also has way more problems than just being a bulky water that was made in a metagame with another bulky water, and I think this viewpoint ignores a lot of what happened in its process and what makes it perform poorly in the metagame. I did not follow the process heavily, so this information may not be 100% complete, but some way bigger issues are that Snael was basically made to be a zygarde counter (hyperfocusing on a mon that got banned), has awkward movesets, checks very few relevant pokemon, is extremely passive + exploitable, and is weak to rocks when it really doesn't want to be. Again, I didn't directly participate in snael's making and I don't remember a lot of what I lurked on, so someone else would probably be able to address this point more accurately. But simply "making a bulky x type in a meta with another bulky x type" doesn't make a mon immediately horrible, and I think it's a fairly reductionist stance to take; having competition doesn't make you unviable, being much much worse than your competition makes you unviable.

Also on the point of rillaboom- at the end of the day, it's just one mon. It's an easy and attractive route to take, but it's not the only route to take. Disqualifying every type that's neutral or weak to grass seems pretty unnecessary. Some type combinations sack the rillaboom matchup, and that's okay. also, even if we're neutral to grass, beating it isn't out of the question:
bulk set to 80/100 (random numbers for the purpose of illustrating my point):
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex in Grassy Terrain: 294-346 (80.7 - 95%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
after resisting:
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex in Grassy Terrain: 147-173 (40.3 - 47.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
There's no point in fiddling around for the specific defensive benchmarks but as long as we're not OHKO'd by rilla's initial wood hammer and have the ability to outspeed and click recover, we technically beat it (esp with terrain recovery). The numbers I chose aren't even that unreasonable, either; we wouldn't win the matchup dominantly, but we'd still technically win in an ideal situation. Choose whatever other stats you want to prove this point, it doesn't really matter, but going from neutral=>resisted is still within our scope for rillaboom. Even if we initially resist, we could actually lose to the mon depending on how stats and moves shake out. Just in general I'd caution against focusing on rilla too much at this stage.
 
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Submitting another mono typing for consideration, mono-Ground:
7) What benefits does Color Change offer this typing?
a) Can this typing set up an Initial Weakness into Color Change Resist combination?

Weaknesses: Water, Grass, Ice
All three of these weaknesses are self-resist weaknesses. While we do have to sack the much-discussed Rillaboom matchup, our Water weakness can easily be converted into a resistance in the face of the very common Scald. Ice is a harder ask due to a majority of its small number of STAB users hitting very hard, but the Syclant matchup is potentially doable, and we would still be able to deal with Ice coverage.
b) Can this typing set up a Initial Neutrality into Color Change Resist combination?
This typing boasts lots of neutralities, including neutralities to most of the self-resist types (Fire, Dark, Psychic and Steel). Avoiding a weakness too Knock Off is nice, and as discussed before, we are capable of sitting on weaker fire attacks from Pokemon like Astrolotl and Moltres. A Ground type also gives us a potential way to deal with Heatran, although this is admittedly shaky. Psychic and Steel neutralities are awkward in relation to Future Sight and Doom Desire, but we would still potentially be able to deal with Tapu Lele's Psychic spam, as well as Banded Melmetal, and Equilibra will have to waste time landing SE hits that we can potentially just outheal.
c) Does this typing offer consistent switchins, that is, Initial Resistance to Color Change Resistance interactions?
Resistances: Poison, Rock
The only particularly relevant resistance to the resist->resist interaction is Poison; this particular typing is convenient because we will likely have moves that can hit this type super effectively. Besides the Rock resistance is much appreciated for the Stealth Rocks resistance. We are also immune to Electric, the benefit of which I will discuss in a moment.
8) What further bonuses does this typing offer (SR Resistance, Toxic Immunity, Burn Immunity, Spikes Immunity.., Ghost Immunity, Dragon Immunity) beyond its resistances.
Besides the aforementioned Stealth Rocks weakness, and what is functionally a Paralysis immunity (moves like Glare, Body Slam and Tri Attack that could paralyze are essentially non-existent in the metagame, although our ability to avoid Static is dependent on our movepool), we have an inherent niche in being able to block Volt Switch and keep our typing. This is particularly relevant for Volt Switchers like Zeraora and (less commonly due to using U-turn) Tapu Koko, which are stuck either hard switching or hitting us with a guaranteed neutral move in order to Volt Switch out, allowing us to either hit them with a super-effective move or get our desired free turn(s). In addition, Ground type comes with a number of moves that have decent power and utility even outside of STAB.
 
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Slapperfish

Banned deucer.
Oh boy, my first typing submission! I was mulling over a number of undiscussed type combinations, and despite my reluctance towards the possibility of having three CAPs in a row with a shared type...

I would like to submit Steel/Dragon.

7) What benefits does Color Change offer this typing?
a) Can this typing set up an Initial Weakness into Color Change Resist combination?

Unfortunately, no. However, both of its weaknesses, Fighting and Ground, do become neutral hits upon activation. This does mean that higher-tier mons with super effective follow-up STABs like Tomohawk, Kerfluffle, Hawlucha, Swampert, and Gastrodon would counter us pretty hard, but the positives of this typing far outweigh the negatives.

b) Can this typing set up a Initial Neutrality into Color Change Resist combination?
Yes: Fire, Ice, and Dark. Astrolotl is threatened outright by the possibility of any Dragon moves it might be carrying, regardless of STAB, and mons like Hydreigon and Kyurem have a tough time hitting it super effectively with STAB, assuming they don't read a switch-in with Earth Power.

c) Does this typing offer consistent switchins, that is, Initial Resistance to Color Change Resistance interactions?
Absolutely! It's difficult to ignore the defensive capabilities of both Steel and Dragon, even when separate. Together, they resist Steel, Water, Grass, Electric and Psychic. Additionally, initial Steel attacks allow it to keep its Dragon typing for even more resisted follow-up hits from Grass, Electric and Water attacks, thanks to the mechanics of Color Change.

8) What further bonuses does this typing offer (SR Resistance, Toxic Immunity, Burn Immunity, Spikes Immunity.., Ghost Immunity, Dragon Immunity) beyond its resistances.
  • STAB or not, the prospect of Steel attacks can threaten slower Fairy-types that decide to switch into a predicted Dragon move.
  • Initial Poison immunity is always a good thing.
  • Like a handful of other type combinations, Dragon/Steel takes the least amount of overall damage from Rillaboom's Grassy Glide > U-Turn combo, thanks to a whopping 4x resistance to Grass.
  • Because of how Color Change works, any initial Dragon-type attack directed at it will not turn it into a vulnerable mono-Dragon type.
 
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Sure, we might turn a 2HKO into a 3HKO, buying us time to recover and forcing out an opponent but that’s a mitigatatory effect not an advantage. It will always be better to Resist>Resist or Neutral>Resist than to SE>Resist. Which is why I’m confused by all the typings that tote their SE>Resist effects as an upside, when competing with other types that just Resist>Resist or better.
First off I want to reply to this.

For any role, that isn’t set up this ist true.
BUT a Pokémon that can set up on a would be check, (maybe the only check left to your opponent) will be really hard to revenge kill, especially, if it boosts defenses and/or speed.
Granted this will not work with every Pokémon.
You are not going to set up on a Rillaboom with a grass weak Pokémon.
A dark weak Pokémon on the other hand could very easily tank one knock off, click it’s set up move and continue to wall the opponent.
Ofc. A dark resist could do the same. BUT a Dark resist probably would have another check/counter on the opposing team as well.
In the best case scenario this could mean, that you force out the best check to your offensive set, pressuring the opponent to rely on a more shaky back up, resulting in even another turn you can spend setting up or healing.

The one downside this has is that only a select few Pokémon are really going to be forced out, rather than following up the SE hit with another one that’s neutral or SE even. But we can make out those few and build with this positive in mind.
Other than that I agree that focusing on consistent resists is important, but most self resisting types already offer this SE->resist option anyway, so it wouldn’t even be a distraction but a bonus if we can make this viable.

I have to read through the types that interest me the most, but I’ll be back with answers to the last couple of questions.
 
I don't really agree with a lot in this post––the notion that any two mons sharing the same type combination are directly competing with each other is overlooking the fact that every Pokemon fulfills vastly different roles. I don't really see how toxapex competes for the same role that a bulky setup sweeper does. The comparison to toxapex is also disingenuous because we won't be water/poison for extended durations of time, only before we're hit by a move. I don't think we'd be competing with corviknight if we're steel/flying, or heatran if we're steel/fire; this logic doesn't work very well. We will ultimately fulfill a radically different role than any Pokemon we share our type with, and any similarities begin and end at what our typing will be for the first move we're hit by.

Snaelstrom also has way more problems than just being a bulky water that was made in a metagame with another bulky water, and I think this viewpoint ignores a lot of what happened in its process and what makes it perform poorly in the metagame. I did not follow the process heavily, so this information may not be 100% complete, but some way bigger issues are that Snael was basically made to be a zygarde counter (hyperfocusing on a mon that got banned), has awkward movesets, checks very few relevant pokemon, is extremely passive + exploitable, and is weak to rocks when it really doesn't want to be. Again, I didn't directly participate in snael's making and I don't remember a lot of what I lurked on, so someone else would probably be able to address this point more accurately. But simply "making a bulky x type in a meta with another bulky x type" doesn't make a mon immediately horrible, and I think it's a fairly reductionist stance to take; having competition doesn't make you unviable, being much much worse than your competition makes you unviable.
I do think a Steel/Flying bulky setup CAP29 could come into conflict with Corviknight because Corv does actually run bulky setup sets. That said, your broader point stands. Toxapex is an obnoxious wall with zero setup options and numerous means to combat sweepers such as Knock Off, Scald, and Haze. In a sense, a Water/Poison CAP29 stands to be an anti-Pex inasmuch as it is meant to fulfill a far more offensively inclined role with the same initial type combination.

For another example, Zephyr2007, consider type-clones Kartana and Ferrothorn—they are nowhere in the same ballgame.

Further...

I want to use this post to address a typing that I'm finding to be rather worrying with this CAP: that being the Poison/Water typing. Trying to utilize this typing would be directly competing with Toxapex, along with the plethora of bulky water types in the current metagame. We see that Toxapex gets less use in this metagame due to the prevalence of Slowking and Slowbro, I just want to ask: what makes us think another Poison/Water type would be any different?
Do we see the contradiction here? If Pex usage has plummeted—be it due to the Slowfellas, poor matchups with new 'mons, or sheer passivity—then it presents little competition to speak of. Why should we be concerned about competing with something that is already suboptimal? If anything, I would argue that the downfall of Pex should improve the viability of a Water/Poison CAP29 because it stands to wall our new project otherwise.

(Also, 2spoopy4u, the rundown on Snael is fairly spot-on.)
 
7) What benefits does Color Change offer this typing?
a) Can this typing set up an Initial Weakness into Color Change Resist combination?
b) Can this typing set up a Initial Neutrality into Color Change Resist combination?
c) Does this typing offer consistent switchins, that is, Initial Resistance to Color Change Resistance interactions?
8) What further bonuses does this typing offer (SR Resistance, Toxic Immunity, Burn Immunity, Spikes Immunity.., Ghost Immunity, Dragon Immunity) beyond its resistances.
I'd like to propose Poison / Dark.
I really like this typing a lot. It can continue to resisting three of the self resisting types and retains stab moves for two of them, which is especially relevant for the Omnipresent Knock Off.
Resisting :Rillaboom:STAB is another great selling point, as this one will be the hardest to check wallbreaker, without an initial resist.
Additionally being immune to poison is a nice bonus this type offers.
Initially Posion/Dark has a lot of neutral type matchups, which are turned into resists for a fair few op them.
This means Color Change adds defensive utility to this type.
The biggest selling point for me is that dark and poison type moves are great to have, even if they aren’t STAB, as they often bring some form of utility with them.

Submitting Steel / Flying
There is just nothing, that this type doesn’t offer for color change:
The only two weaknesses are self resisting? Check!
Resists a bunch of Self Resists? Check
Some even 4x? Check!
What is a Rillaboom? Check!
Immune to poison on the switch? Check?
No Fighting weakness? Check!
Immune to Ground? Check!
Takes no or neutral Damage from entry hazards? Check!

The two minor nitpick I have for this one is, it’s initial STAB sucks a.., which might be negligible in most Set Up scenarios, but could be annoying in situations, where 29 needs to force switches.
And actually baking able to take advantage of our 80->20 scenario is going to be less likely than with other types, as a lot of fire types either run SE ground coverage (Astro is likely going to turn to either ground or dragon moves, which worsens our MU a lot) or hit hard and can switch to a neutral move

This type will have to rely on its incredible defensive benefits to actualize our concept as a Set Up sweeper.

I'll be subbing Poison/Dragon.
This is another cool one.
It has a lot of similarities with water/poison, with a few significant upsides.
It offers a lot of resists to Self Resisting types, especially the 4x resistance to :Rillaboom: is nice as it allows us to work as a great check to the monke.
Swapping Electric for Ice weakness is nice, because ice mostly comes in the form of coverage, rather than STAB (although if it’s stab it’s usually choiced), while electric will mostly be Volt switch, which makes The 80->20 scenario easier to abuse with an ice weakness.
Being immune to poison is nice and being able to spam posion moves as STAB or without is good as well.
I feel like Being weak to Psychic will give us less opportunities to abuse SE->resist combinations, as it usually is either backed up by immense power or is Future Sight, which doesn’t interact with color change the same way other moves do.

Fire/Fighting
This typing looks really cool to me.
While I think a poison immunity is great, it’s mostly just a bonus and Fire/Fighting has enough perks to make up for its lack of it.
Firstly this is probably the type, out of all submissions, that I would consider most for a physical sweeper (dark/poison would be second)
It’s initially burn immune and has really high power physical STABs that are fairly spammable.
Obviously it’s Special movepool is neat as well, with some really cool utility options, that work both as STAB and coverage.
In general both types can make for great coverage moves even without STAB.
I mostly like fire types, because their interaction with weaker water type moves, and Fire/fighting is the only fire type without a Rock weakness or a 4x weakness.
In addition this type looks Great at tanking Steel and Grass hits and being able to follow up with super effective coverage moves
, that are also STABs if it can get in for free.
Subbing Ghost/Dark
I think this one is in a very similar place with dark/poison, as it gives up on initial resists, to instead be weak to almost nothing. I feel like it’s a Little less targeted, than Poison/Dark, since it doesn’t have any self resist Interaction. But it has neat implications for dealing with ghosts, as we don’t Change type, while being hit neutrally and have two SE STAB options to deal with them.
Another great perk is being immune to Fighting and Psychic, which is cool for a lot of Special attackers, that carry Psychic, Fighting and Flying moves. They will often be forced to use weak coverage or three turn combos to make progress or be forced out.

I wanna propose Electric/Ghost
Last but not least, the typing I was going to submit myself after falling out of love with my first submission.
Similar to dark ghost, this one looks a lot different to the earlier bunch.
It does not have a poison immunity and is less targeted to being weak to self resisting types. It does have a dark weakness, which is one of the easier to exploit weaknesses for CC.
What I like most about this type is its niche as a great anti flying type.
Of all the birds in the meta only:Moltres:has a neutral match up, while:Mandibuzz:technically has moves to hurt us, but is going to hate turning us into a dark resist, while eating Electric type moves.
Flying/Fighting, Flying/Electric and fighting/steel, with sometimes additional fire coverage are the most common move types on flying type Pokémon. This means 29 will naturally Wall most Flying types in the meta for at least 2 turns, regardless of move combinations, (being a good Cawm check just from typing is already a reason to put 29 on a team.)
Additionally the build of a bulky ghost type is pretty rare in the meta, so it will see even less competition there.
Like a lot of the types I really like it’s STAB combo is Great and is still usable without STAB.
Electric in particular is easy to patch up offensively with only one additional move type,
which is going to make move sets a lot easier.
Finally both immunities to fighting, which is a typing that CC struggles to deal with, as well as immunities to paralysis and Rapid Spin, and Absorbing volt switches, while keeping its type will add to its utility and help build a niche for 29 outside of set up.

Of all of these typings I like Electric/Ghost the most.
What makes it stand out for me, is, that it offers the clearest path forward in terms of Defensive match ups and the utility it brings to the team.
 
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Some of the other typings I like have been covered, so I'm going to use the template to promote Bug/Ground.

9) Pick a typing you like (that someone else submitted) and argue why its great here in terms of actualizing Color Change, providing a reason for use, and specifically in the context of a Bulky Setup Sweeper / Pivot / Other roles.

I feel like this typing has seen some light discussion but hasn't really been standing out. I wanted to highlight it because of the critical chances I believe the type offers for set-up opportunities.

a) How does this typing, when combined with Color Change, deny revenge killing?
So this is a bit of a tricky question, because if CAP 29 is getting revenge killed it has probably lost some HP and it's original typing. I will say that Bug/Ground probably handles this the best because it keeps it's original typing from U-Turn and blocks Volt Switch. It is difficult to easily pivot into this type without it getting a chance to set up.

b) How does this typing, when combined with Color Change, let you set up Neutral / Weak to Resist combos?
As we've discussed in depth already, SE to Resist hits are probably not our best option here to fulfill the concept. Water, Fire and Ice all go SE to resist for this typing, but I feel that the typing won't fail because of it. It's certainly a consideration, but I feel with suitable bulk things like Scald won't be the end of the world. Neutral to Resist works great for Grass, Dark, Steel, and Psychic, good opportunities for us to come in on threats like Rilla.

c) How does this typing, when combined with Color Change, provide switchin chances?
This is the big one, with the Electric immunity and the ability to keep our typing through a U-Turn. I feel Bug/Ground has the best options for getting in compared to a number of other types. Electric immunity is huge, plus a big resist to Ground and Bug gives a wealth of switch-in options that won't activate CC. No SR weakness and immunity to Thunder Wave are big wins.

d) How does this typing provide a reason for use on a team?
This question does seem a bit premature, but I feel like the highlight is the Electric immunity and strong ability to handle common pivots.

e) How does this typing help generate setup or switchin opportunities?
Ground is a great threatening attacking type to force out some top threats in the current meta, which helps us bring in enough attack power to force switches and get setup opportunities. As well, the Electric immunity gives a number of options to switch in and avoid damage, forcing a switch and giving set-up options.
 
You know what, fuck it. I'm going to be making another submission: Water/Dragon.

a) Can this typing set up an Initial Weakness into Color Change Resist combination?
This is one of the few downsides of this typing, as it only has two weaknesses, and none of them can be turned into resists. In fact, it actually maintains one of these weaknesses in Dragon.

b) Can this typing set up a Initial Neutrality into Color Change Resist combination?
Now this is where this typing truly shines. It has neutralities to a ton of common attacking types, the most important of these being
Grass, Electric, Dark, Ice, Psychic, and Poison. This gives us a whopping six neutrality to resist combos, allowing us to switch into threats like Rillaboom, Tapu Koko, and Galarian Slowking as well as moves like Knock Off.

c) Does this typing offer consistent switchins, that is, Initial Resistance to Color Change Resistance interactions?
This typing has three very good resistance to resistance interactions, specifically with
Fire, Steel, and Water attacks. The latter two are especially good here, as they allow us to maintain resistances to Double Iron Bash and Scald respectively, which are two very important attacks to keep our resistances to IMO. Taking less damage from Pyro Ball and Lava Plume on the switch is a nice bonus as well.

8) What further bonuses does this typing offer (SR Resistance, Toxic Immunity, Burn Immunity, Spikes Immunity.., Ghost Immunity, Dragon Immunity) beyond its resistances.

Unfortunately this typing doesn't really offer any additional bonuses. But it still more than makes up for it in terms of the sheer number of switchins it has, and while I think my original submission of Steel/Fairy does have more overall merits, the sheer defensive utility of Water/Dragon cannot be ignored.

Other submissions I really like so far are Poison/Dark (I was actually considering submitting this alongside Steel/Fairy, but decided to hold off a bit), Water/Poison, Poison/Dragon, Poison/Fairy, and Poison/Steel. I really like Poison overall as a typing for this CAP, and these combinations provide the best defensive synergy while also giving us a good number of switch ins.
 

Korski

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Hello, meant to submit this yesterday, but Life, ya know. Addressing Q 7 and 8 now, will tackle Q 9 later.

Submitting Poison/Steel.

7) What benefits does Color Change offer this typing?
a) Can this typing set up an Initial Weakness into Color Change Resist combination?

-Yes, its Fire weakness becomes a Fire resist upon Color Change activation. Fire is a strange type for 29 to deal with. Given Cinderace circumvents it entirely, Heatran traps, and as kjnjkmjk1 mentioned, a potential Lash+Tantrum Astrolotl set, Fire is going to be a problem for almost any typing we give this thing.
- Given reasonable bulk, other Fire types are going to have a tough time beating this. This is generally true for other Fire-weak typings just by virtue of CC. Things like Lotl, Moltres and +0 Volc don't quite hit hard enough to cause us undue trouble. Even at +1, Volc has difficulty unless it hits us on the switch.

- Strong Ground users take a big fat stinky poop on us. However, Ground coverage and weaker ground moves can be dealt with. The following cherry-picked calcs are based on a Poison/Steel Corviknight, which I think has reasonable defenses.

0 SpA Moltres Scorching Sands vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Corviknight: 200-236 (50 - 59%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Tyranitar Earthquake vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 176-208 (44 - 52%) -- 10.9% chance to 2HKO
4+ SpA Equilibra Earth Power vs. +2 252 HP / 252+ SpD Corviknight: 204-244 (51 - 61%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Melmetal Earthquake vs. +2 252 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 180-216 (45 - 54%) -- 43.8% chance to 2HKO

We can't come in on Ground moves (unless we're pretty fast). Moltres Sands and TTar EQ are dealt with by set-up + recovery. Melm and Libra can be dealt with if we set up on the switch to Melm/Libra, then outspeed and set up again. Lando? Chomp? Drill? Colo? Who are those?

Overall, Ground fucks us up. Also remains to be seen what kind of moves we will have access to that are able to hit these mons.

b) Can this typing set up a Initial Neutrality into Color Change Resist combination?
- Yes, this typing is neutral to Water, Electric, Psychic and Dark.
- Water: Useful for stopping scald spam, but Kril is annoying. Outside of rain, nothing hits strong enough with Water that the initial neutrality is a problem.
- Psychic: Glowking can't do any Future Sight -> Sludge Bomb shenanigans without hitting us with a third move first (thereby giving us an extra turn to set up). Future Sight neutrality is nice in general too. Other than Lele nothing is hitting strong enough that initial neutrality is a problem, and we 0.25x resist its other stab.
- Electric: Usually this is probably going to be Volt Switch, and most powerful electric mons aren't running ground coverage.
- Dark: Resisting knock off spam is nice. Hydreigon doesn't usually run Earth Power and we can set up in its face due to Draco drops. Nothing hits super hard with Dark, and not being weak to Knock Off is nice.


c) Does this typing offer consistent switchins, that is, Initial Resistance to Color Change Resistance interactions?
-
I thought you'd never ask!! Our friend here resists Steel and Ice 0.5x, Grass 0.25x and is immune to Poison!!
- This is great for tanking strong Doom Desires and Flash Cannons, DIBs from banded Melm, Grass moves from Rillaboom and Kart, Sludge Bombs from Glowking and Ice moves from... Kril? Scylant?
- The 0.25x Grass resist is especially nice for shutting down Rillaboom (which is forced to run the suboptimal High Horsepower in order to beat us), and Kart (which can't chain Steel -> Fighting without hitting us with Fighting first).


8) What further bonuses does this typing offer (SR Resistance, Toxic Immunity, Burn Immunity, Spikes Immunity.., Ghost Immunity, Dragon Immunity) beyond its resistances.
-
An SR resistance is super nice.
- Toxic immunity upon switch in is very nice too.
- 0.25x U-turn resist can come in handy. There is potential for using U-turn to change our type to Bug in order to avoid a switch in with a strong Ground move.
- 0.25x resist to Fairy is very nice, because Fairy is difficult to chain SE hits into (outside of Mage).
- Overall great resistances with Normal, Dragon, Steel, Ice, Rock, Flying PLUS 0.25x resists to Grass, Fairy and Bug AND extra extra Poison immunity.
- Steel type with neutrality to fighting is also very nice.
- Initial Dragon resist is nominally nice for switching in to Dracos.
Yep this a good type

Poison / Steel

4x: Ground
2x: Fire
1x: Dark, Electric, Fighting, Ghost, Psychic, Water
1/2x: Dragon, Flying, Ice, Normal, Steel, Rock
1/4x: Bug, Fairy, Grass
0x: Poison
  • weak —> weak: none
  • weak —> neutral: Ground
  • weak —> resist: Fire
  • neutral —> weak: Ghost
  • neutral —> neutral: Fighting
  • neutral —> resist: Dark, Electric, Psychic, Water
  • resist —> weak: Dragon
  • resist —> neutral: Bug, Fairy, Flying, Normal, Rock
  • resist —> resist: Grass, Ice, Poison, Steel
Pro-concept:
  • broad defensive typing w/strong hazard resistance provides natural bulk and a diversity of switch-in opportunities that can both be enhanced with stats
  • narrow weaknesses of initial typing provide counterbalance while easing prediction when Color Change is not activated on switch-in (also Ground-types are famously weak to one of the major coverage types being considered for this CAP, so it may end up being difficult for them to just switch right in every time).
  • poor offensive typing lifts pressure off of retaining original types to sweep.
  • redundant STABs w/ narrow SE coverage offer no pressure to use both, or either (although each can shift from STAB to targeted supplementary coverage pretty easily after Color Change is activated)
  • Standout matchups: Kartana, Magearna, Rillaboom
 
I really like Electric/Ghost , as it's one of the few CC typings that can wall Tomohawk (and Fighting/Flying in general) for more than one turn. If Tomohawk decides to stay in, it gives us ample opportunity to set up, or threaten it with Electric moves. Resisting Volt Switch and not changing types is another benefit, as well as the initial immunity to Paralysis.

I also support Poison/Dark . Being able to Switch in on Toxic is pretty great (and has the bonus of removing T-Spikes, something Steel doesn't have). Resisting Rillaboom's Grass moves is also great, as well as coming in on Knock Off without changing typings. Its few weaknesses and the plethora of useful moves Poison and Dark provide are very appealing to both CC and set up sweeping.
 

quziel

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Ok, going to give roughly my top few typings that are actively under consideration for slating, and explanations as to why I'm not slating some otherwise popular typings. I should note that this will be a WIP, because this is a giant points and I don't want my hands to go dead.

Stuff I am considering:
Poison / Dark:

This typing is widely endorsed, receiving 4 endorsements that I could find with a cursory glance, and for good reason. It has 1 weakness, total, which means that its very easy to exploit Color Change with respect to Neutral=>Resist matchups, and while it doesn't have any Weak=>Resist matchups, the sheer number of neutral ones really helps. An initial resist to Grass/Dark also makes it a great Rillaboom answer. The initial Toxic immunity is nice, but not absurdly impactful, as is the fact that it just eats Glowking by being immune to Sludge=>FS combos.

Fire / Fairy:
Another typing that excels vs Rillaboom, resisting U-turn, Grassy Glide, and Knock Off, although it really hates having to take Knock Off. I don't love that this typing is all but forced to hold HDB, but that is outweighed by its great use of Color Change w.r.t. Water, Electric, and Poison matchups, as well as access to Fire STAB, which is just really great.

Water / Poison:
This typing had a lot of endorsements, 4 that I can count, and makes good use of Color Change letting it just eat Electric moves, as well as being one of the few water-types that can potentially take on Rilla, with the Neutral=>Resist combo being open depending on stabs. An initial STAB on water is a noted advantage given the very wide neutral coverage that water offers, as well as its proven use on Glowking and Glowbro as a non-STAB move (both use the actual stab combo). Toxic immunity is a minor but noted advantage.

Steel / Flying:
This typing received the most endorsements out of all of them, with 7 positive endorsements, and is honestly one of the best defensive typings that exists total. This really defines the more defensive end of the spectrum, with an endless list of both resists and immunities, can use CC to turn Fire and Electric matchups from a loss to a win, with its only major drawback being the fact that it doesn't really gain any bonus from STAB (literally all flying moves suck).

Poison / Dragon:
This typing again focuses on being Toxic Immune and beating up Boomer, offering almost as many resists as Steel/Flying (one less, though no immunes). It doesn't really leverage Color Change to the same degree, really only offering the Weak=>Resist with Psychic and Ice, which aren't super common attacking typings. This is a fairly good typing, but its lack of real STAB attacks sorta annoys me, and the heavily losing matchup vs Libra does annoy me a tad.

Grass / Poison:
Frankly a lot of the typings focused on beating Toxic and Rilla, and this is another one of them. I'm a bit shakier on it than a lot of the others on this list, but it has potential for a fair bit of CC abuse, given the Fire and Ice weaknesses, and maintaining typing on a GG hit does help a fair bit. This definitely struggles with no real access to good STAB (in the cases we have it) given the relative suckitude of Grass and Poison. Overall this is a bit more concept relevant (more CC abuse) and a bit less powerful than Poison / Dragon.

Fire / Fighting:
This typing again beats up Rilla, and trades the common Toxic immunity that a lot of other typings offer for just offering situational access to two of the best STABs in the game. I don't necessarily know how to weight those, but this is a great STAB combo, gives access to a lot of situationally great "STABs", and that's sorta cool? I consider this to be a major competitor to Fire/Fairy, offering a very similar resist palette with respect to Grass, Dark, and Fire itself, but trading a slightly worse defensive typing for not having to hold HDB.

Ghost / Dark:
This is an excellent defensive typing, really going hard on the "minimize weaknesses" train, with literally only Fairy hitting it SE initially, which lets you go really hard into the Neutral=>Resist combos, as even if you predict wrong, you're still only taking neutral damage. Bit iffy in terms of "you don't wanna use a non-stab Ghost move", which constrains how much you'd want to run those initial stabs. Keeping Ghost/Dark when hit by Knock is a noted advantage over other Ghosts, as is being unable to be hit SE by chained Ghost moves.

Ground / Flying:
This typing is one of those that really provides a compelling reason to actually use CAP 29, with both a Ground Immune and a Volt Immune, which is great considering that both are attacks commonly used by Choiced mons, which can't punish CC ever, aka our dream. This is also a Ground-typing that can sorta beat up Rillaboom, which is an advantage over the rest of the Ground-typings, as well as a Flying-typing that doesn't die to rocks. Overall a very solid option which gives a lot of neutral matchups, immunities, and at least one good STAB.

Electric / Ghost:
This is another pretty solid typing, really going hard on the anti-flying tack, giving a solid reason for use in terms of just making Tomohawk very sad, which is a niche that a lot of teams would love. It does suffer from the same issue as Ghost/Dark where you sorta hate running non-STAB Sball, which makes movesets a tad difficult, but that's really not a major issue at all. Great number of neutral matchups again, though I do worry that this typing is sorta similar but worse when compared to Ghost/Dark.

Why I'm not considering stuff:
I would like to explain that everything in this section is still a very good typing, its just that between either competition to existing setup mons, or just me not wanting to spoiler effect the slate (A1, A2, B as options, B wins due to A1>B>A2 vs A2>B>A1).

Steel / Fairy:
The issue I have here is twofold; There's a whole lot of steel typings submitted here already and frankly, I don't want to engage in a huge spoiler effect, as well as me not really believing its super wise for us to compete with Magearna given its sheer dominance of the setup sweeper role. While it is possible for us to have meaningful competition with Magearna, its sheer strength means that a difficult project will just become more difficult.

Fairy / Poison:
Again, this is really just its competition with what I view to be a similarly endorsed but slightly more interesting option in Fire/Fairy, which offers very similar defensive merit, while also having Fire STAB that really streamlines our set, with respect to Fire STAB being useful with, or without the actual STAB bonus, which isn't really as true for Poison STAB. There's also a lot of competition between Poison types honestly.

Bug / Ground:
This is an interesting one, but imo its main benefit in terms of keeping base typing when hit by U-turn is sorta complicated by the fact that the most common U-turner is well, Cinderace. This is combined with its competition with the later submitted Ground/Flying, which has very similar defensive merits, trading a 4x Ice weakness for less awkward typing overall and situational access to Flying STAB.

Steel:
Frankly there's just too many Steel typings submitted, and a lot of them are really solid here.

Fairy / Flying:
There's just so many flying types, and this is unique among them for being weak to SR, making it far more restrictive than the others submitted.

Fighting / Steel:
Holy crap so much steel type competition.

Normal / Fairy:
Frankly this feels like its focusing way too much on minimizing the weaknesses of CC, being a hard counter to Pult, a mon that would otherwise eat us, than focusing on the strengths. Although it does have a large number of Neutral=>Resist combos.

This list is not final, if you disagree with something in the consideration list, or not consideration list I can be persuaded, and also the consideration list is intentionally larger than the final slate will be. Also submissions are still open, and evaluations of other typings are still wanted.

Edit:

Bug / Steel: Competition with other Steel types (a common trend) means that really getting into the top list as a steel is gonna be proper hard (again, trying to maximize slate diversity in order to improve voting patterns). Main problem with it is how it interacts with Fire-types, which are a target we noted as possible during CA; it would be difficult to tank Fire=>Neutral or even resisted coverage regardless of possible bulk spread. Hence it not entering the list.

Ground / Fairy: This is really mainly competition, as its competing with a lot of other stuff for a spot, I could be convinced here, but I feel like this typing gets a few autolose matchups (DIB is a literal truck) compared to other ground typings which can access those.
 
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Ok, going to give roughly my top few typings that are actively under consideration for slating, and explanations as to why I'm not slating some otherwise popular typings. I should note that this will be a WIP, because this is a giant points and I don't want my hands to go dead.

Stuff I am considering:
Poison / Dark:

This typing is widely endorsed, receiving 4 endorsements that I could find with a cursory glance, and for good reason. It has 1 weakness, total, which means that its very easy to exploit Color Change with respect to Neutral=>Resist matchups, and while it doesn't have any Weak=>Resist matchups, the sheer number of neutral ones really helps. An initial resist to Grass/Dark also makes it a great Rillaboom answer. The initial Toxic immunity is nice, but not absurdly impactful, as is the fact that it just eats Glowking by being immune to Sludge=>FS combos.

Fire / Fairy:
Another typing that excels vs Rillaboom, resisting U-turn, Grassy Glide, and Knock Off, although it really hates having to take Knock Off. I don't love that this typing is all but forced to hold HDB, but that is outweighed by its great use of Color Change w.r.t. Water, Electric, and Poison matchups, as well as access to Fire STAB, which is just really great.

Water / Poison:
This typing had a lot of endorsements, 4 that I can count, and makes good use of Color Change letting it just eat Electric moves, as well as being one of the few water-types that can potentially take on Rilla, with the Neutral=>Resist combo being open depending on stabs. An initial STAB on water is a noted advantage given the very wide neutral coverage that water offers, as well as its proven use on Glowking and Glowbro as a non-STAB move (both use the actual stab combo). Toxic immunity is a minor but noted advantage.

Steel / Flying:
This typing received the most endorsements out of all of them, with 7 positive endorsements, and is honestly one of the best defensive typings that exists total. This really defines the more defensive end of the spectrum, with an endless list of both resists and immunities, can use CC to turn Fire and Electric matchups from a loss to a win, with its only major drawback being the fact that it doesn't really gain any bonus from STAB (literally all flying moves suck).

Poison / Dragon:
This typing again focuses on being Toxic Immune and beating up Boomer, offering almost as many resists as Steel/Flying (one less, though no immunes). It doesn't really leverage Color Change to the same degree, really only offering the Weak=>Resist with Psychic and Ice, which aren't super common attacking typings. This is a fairly good typing, but its lack of real STAB attacks sorta annoys me, and the heavily losing matchup vs Libra does annoy me a tad.

Grass / Poison:
Frankly a lot of the typings focused on beating Toxic and Rilla, and this is another one of them. I'm a bit shakier on it than a lot of the others on this list, but it has potential for a fair bit of CC abuse, given the Fire and Ice weaknesses, and maintaining typing on a GG hit does help a fair bit. This definitely struggles with no real access to good STAB (in the cases we have it) given the relative suckitude of Grass and Poison. Overall this is a bit more concept relevant (more CC abuse) and a bit less powerful than Poison / Dragon.

Fire / Fighting:
This typing again beats up Rilla, and trades the common Toxic immunity that a lot of other typings offer for just offering situational access to two of the best STABs in the game. I don't necessarily know how to weight those, but this is a great STAB combo, gives access to a lot of situationally great "STABs", and that's sorta cool? I consider this to be a major competitor to Fire/Fairy, offering a very similar resist palette with respect to Grass, Dark, and Fire itself, but trading a slightly worse defensive typing for not having to hold HDB.

Ghost / Dark:
This is an excellent defensive typing, really going hard on the "minimize weaknesses" train, with literally only Fairy hitting it SE initially, which lets you go really hard into the Neutral=>Resist combos, as even if you predict wrong, you're still only taking neutral damage. Bit iffy in terms of "you don't wanna use a non-stab Ghost move", which constrains how much you'd want to run those initial stabs. Keeping Ghost/Dark when hit by Knock is a noted advantage over other Ghosts, as is being unable to be hit SE by chained Ghost moves.

Ground / Flying:
This typing is one of those that really provides a compelling reason to actually use CAP 29, with both a Ground Immune and a Volt Immune, which is great considering that both are attacks commonly used by Choiced mons, which can't punish CC ever, aka our dream. This is also a Ground-typing that can sorta beat up Rillaboom, which is an advantage over the rest of the Ground-typings, as well as a Flying-typing that doesn't die to rocks. Overall a very solid option which gives a lot of neutral matchups, immunities, and at least one good STAB.

Electric / Ghost:
This is another pretty solid typing, really going hard on the anti-flying tack, giving a solid reason for use in terms of just making Tomohawk very sad, which is a niche that a lot of teams would love. It does suffer from the same issue as Ghost/Dark where you sorta hate running non-STAB Sball, which makes movesets a tad difficult, but that's really not a major issue at all. Great number of neutral matchups again, though I do worry that this typing is sorta similar but worse when compared to Ghost/Dark.

Why I'm not considering stuff:
I would like to explain that everything in this section is still a very good typing, its just that between either competition to existing setup mons, or just me not wanting to spoiler effect the slate (A1, A2, B as options, B wins due to A1>B>A2 vs A2>B>A1).

Steel / Fairy:
The issue I have here is twofold; There's a whole lot of steel typings submitted here already and frankly, I don't want to engage in a huge spoiler effect, as well as me not really believing its super wise for us to compete with Magearna given its sheer dominance of the setup sweeper role. While it is possible for us to have meaningful competition with Magearna, its sheer strength means that a difficult project will just become more difficult.

Fairy / Poison:
Again, this is really just its competition with what I view to be a similarly endorsed but slightly more interesting option in Fire/Fairy, which offers very similar defensive merit, while also having Fire STAB that really streamlines our set, with respect to Fire STAB being useful with, or without the actual STAB bonus, which isn't really as true for Poison STAB. There's also a lot of competition between Poison types honestly.

Bug / Ground:
This is an interesting one, but imo its main benefit in terms of keeping base typing when hit by U-turn is sorta complicated by the fact that the most common U-turner is well, Cinderace. This is combined with its competition with the later submitted Ground/Flying, which has very similar defensive merits, trading a 4x Ice weakness for less awkward typing overall and situational access to Flying STAB.

Steel:
Frankly there's just too many Steel typings submitted, and a lot of them are really solid here.

Fairy / Flying:
There's just so many flying types, and this is unique among them for being weak to SR, making it far more restrictive than the others submitted.

Fighting / Steel:
Holy crap so much steel type competition.

Normal / Fairy:
Frankly this feels like its focusing way too much on minimizing the weaknesses of CC, being a hard counter to Pult, a mon that would otherwise eat us, than focusing on the strengths. Although it does have a large number of Neutral=>Resist combos.

This list is not final, if you disagree with something in the consideration list, or not consideration list I can be persuaded, and also the consideration list is intentionally larger than the final slate will be. Also submissions are still open, and evaluations of other typings are still wanted.
Sorry if this one-liner isn’t aloud, but what about Bug/Steel? I didn’t see that in either of your categories, and I was just genuinely wondering your thoughts on that. Dogfish also mentioned Ground/Fairy, which seemed pretty appealing to me.
 
I think it is a bit unfair to remove Flying/Fairy from consideration because of the volume of flying types when it approaches it in a different way that Ground/Flying or Steel/Flying, especially when the 4 poison typings made the list, three of which blend together their resistances thanks to their similar secondary typing. (Poison/Dark is unique among them.) I already wrote up some thoughts about it earlier in the thread, but I believe its a very versatile typing whose biggest strength lies in maximizing its potential after the first switch in rather than a laundry list of resistances to really bring into focus Color Change and make it want to work with the ability.

To continue with that, I feel as though Grass/Poison, Water/Poison, and Dragon/Poison are all too similar with minor differences between them. Below I also have an image comparison of the three and their interactions with self-resistant typings. Of the three, Poison/Dragon is the biggest offender that shares a matchup with one of if not both of the other Poison typings, and should not be slated. Water/Poison and Grass/Poison would look at least a little more unique here, but even then I would argue only 1 of the two should make the slate given their similarities. Between the two, I would suggest cutting Grass/Poison. Offensively, Water hits the same Ground/Rock types Grass hits, but adds on others Grass can't deal with like Equilibra or Heatran. Defensively, Grass/Poison is not just missing a resistant to Poison, but Poison is no longer a self-resistant typing here. Water/Poison can keep its STAB combo and be resistant to both typings that hit it, but Grass/Poison is stuck with a redundant 0.25x resistance and a 1x neutrality that it retains for each of its typings.
PKMN Cap 29.png

EDIT: For the typings on the consideration slate, I think that Poison/Dark and Water/Poison should at least both be slated. But if we are going to have more than two poison typings, I would prefer some that bring different unique advantages than the three discussed above. I am also a huge fan of Ground/Flying and Electric/Ghost as was discussed in my previous post. I can see the merit Ghost/Dark has as a universally neutral typing that also screws with ghosts, but I don't think ghosts are important enough to care about, especially if half of them can just hit us with Dragon STAB instead. Being immune to fighting moves is nice too, but if the slate becomes too tight I'm fine with just Poison/Dark which is quite similar.
 
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I think typing competition is a silly thing to consider. No one is going to take a Color Change Mon and go "this typing is already covered". Because Color Change doesn't keep its type anyway
 
Already said it but I'm throwing support for Poison/Dark

9a)How does this typing, when combined with Color Change, deny revenge Killing?
Poison dark is one hell of a typing, as it has only one weakness in ground that avoids it being damaged super effectively most of the time. When combined with useful resists/immunities to psychic/grass/poison/dark, as well as the winning positions provided by Color Change it is able to deny various revenge opportunities.

b) How does this typing, when combined with Color Change, let you set up Neutral / Weak to Resist combos?
This is a large boon of this typing. Its one weakness in ground gets neutered by Color change, which at first sounds mediocre but can be a huge boon for 29 on certain situations. From there, all hits coming from fire, water, grass, steel, electric, and ice attacks will become resists, while poison, dark and psychic types won't be able to change our typing while allowing us to still have an upper hand against the opponent.

c)How does this typing, when combined with Color Change, provide switchin chances?
Poison dark by itself is able to switch into dark, poison, psychic, grass and ghost attacks (the latter just temporarily). By virtue of its interaction with self resisting attacks it can also take a neutral hit from steel/water/fire/electric/ice attacks and end up resisting them after the turn of the initial hit.


d) How does this typing provide a reason for use on a team?
Out of the possible role compression this typing provides alone, poison dark is able to provide teams with a toxic spikes absorber, a future sight switch-in and a knock-off absorber. It's STAB attacks (which it can use even after losing STAB) are able to somewhat threaten relevant CAP mons such as Clefable, the entire slow family (especially galarking) rillaboom, the tapus, and Latios to some extent.

e) How does this typing help generate setup opportunities?
This typing allows us to switch into a variety of common attacks, such as g-king's sludge bombs and future sights, numerous psychics and psyshock, and a lot of attacks from self-resistant typings. One of the most huge setup opportunities however, is the ability to come into various types of knock offs, which are often on Mons with weak attacks that 29 can easily come into and start setting up.

As of the slate, Poison/Dark, Water/Poison and Flying/Steel absolutely deserve to be slated. These are easily the most discussed typings and while I'm personally not a fan of the later two typings they have had clear and concrete discussion about how they can easily help the concept. Despite not being discussed as much, o also think Grass/Poison, Electric/Ghost, Ground/Flying and Fire/Fighting could merit a place on the slate, as they still have had their good amount of support and good reasoning to help the concept. I haven't really heard of Fire/Fairy, Dragon/Poison, or Ghost/Dark, so I wouldn't be so sure of slating them, not do I find them discussion worthy enough to be considered. Instead I would throw my support on Fairy/Poison, which had been discussed at almost the same level of the big three.
 
I’m actually a little surprised Fire Fairy has so little discussion around it. As a typing the benefits it has easily makes it comparable to the some of the other more spoken about typings. Defensively you can argue it’s a better typing than both poison/water and poison/dark especially when you factor in the offensive rarity and lack of strength of some of its weaknesses. It burn and dragon immunities and better offensive options make up for the hazard weakness.

we have to be calculated into what super effective attacks 29 can switch into as it’s quite a few mons that possess such gifted offensive capabilities that they will just Bulldoze past us, or constantly force us to use our free turn to heal. I don’t think we can afford to be weak to a heavy hitters common attacks (cept Melmetal cause fuck trying to come in on those)
 
I would like to submit bug/eletric

a) Can this typing set up an Initial Weakness into Color Change Resist combination?
This type combination has only two weakness initially and while Rock go from SE to neutral, Fire go from SE to resist.

b) Can this typing set up a Initial Neutrality into Color Change Resist combination?

Poison, Water, Dark, Ice and Psychic so it doesn't have an initial weakness to Knock Off and Scald.

c) Does this typing offer consistent switchins, that is, Initial Resistance to Color Change Resistance interactions?
It offers key resistances to Grass, Electric and Steel besides Fighting moves go from a resistance to neutral.

8) What further bonuses does this typing offer (SR Resistance, Toxic Immunity, Burn Immunity, Spikes Immunity.., Ghost Immunity, Dragon Immunity) beyond its resistances.
An immunity to Paralysis, it can switch in U-Turn/ Volt Switch and mantain its typing. Its STAB combination is not very good but CAP 29 isn't hindered heavily by that.
 

dex18

As far as I know, I'm immortal
is a Pre-Contributor
Ok, going to give roughly my top few typings that are actively under consideration for slating, and explanations as to why I'm not slating some otherwise popular typings. I should note that this will be a WIP, because this is a giant points and I don't want my hands to go dead.

Stuff I am considering:
Poison / Dark:

This typing is widely endorsed, receiving 4 endorsements that I could find with a cursory glance, and for good reason. It has 1 weakness, total, which means that its very easy to exploit Color Change with respect to Neutral=>Resist matchups, and while it doesn't have any Weak=>Resist matchups, the sheer number of neutral ones really helps. An initial resist to Grass/Dark also makes it a great Rillaboom answer. The initial Toxic immunity is nice, but not absurdly impactful, as is the fact that it just eats Glowking by being immune to Sludge=>FS combos.

Fire / Fairy:
Another typing that excels vs Rillaboom, resisting U-turn, Grassy Glide, and Knock Off, although it really hates having to take Knock Off. I don't love that this typing is all but forced to hold HDB, but that is outweighed by its great use of Color Change w.r.t. Water, Electric, and Poison matchups, as well as access to Fire STAB, which is just really great.

Water / Poison:
This typing had a lot of endorsements, 4 that I can count, and makes good use of Color Change letting it just eat Electric moves, as well as being one of the few water-types that can potentially take on Rilla, with the Neutral=>Resist combo being open depending on stabs. An initial STAB on water is a noted advantage given the very wide neutral coverage that water offers, as well as its proven use on Glowking and Glowbro as a non-STAB move (both use the actual stab combo). Toxic immunity is a minor but noted advantage.

Steel / Flying:
This typing received the most endorsements out of all of them, with 7 positive endorsements, and is honestly one of the best defensive typings that exists total. This really defines the more defensive end of the spectrum, with an endless list of both resists and immunities, can use CC to turn Fire and Electric matchups from a loss to a win, with its only major drawback being the fact that it doesn't really gain any bonus from STAB (literally all flying moves suck).

Poison / Dragon:
This typing again focuses on being Toxic Immune and beating up Boomer, offering almost as many resists as Steel/Flying (one less, though no immunes). It doesn't really leverage Color Change to the same degree, really only offering the Weak=>Resist with Psychic and Ice, which aren't super common attacking typings. This is a fairly good typing, but its lack of real STAB attacks sorta annoys me, and the heavily losing matchup vs Libra does annoy me a tad.

Grass / Poison:
Frankly a lot of the typings focused on beating Toxic and Rilla, and this is another one of them. I'm a bit shakier on it than a lot of the others on this list, but it has potential for a fair bit of CC abuse, given the Fire and Ice weaknesses, and maintaining typing on a GG hit does help a fair bit. This definitely struggles with no real access to good STAB (in the cases we have it) given the relative suckitude of Grass and Poison. Overall this is a bit more concept relevant (more CC abuse) and a bit less powerful than Poison / Dragon.

Fire / Fighting:
This typing again beats up Rilla, and trades the common Toxic immunity that a lot of other typings offer for just offering situational access to two of the best STABs in the game. I don't necessarily know how to weight those, but this is a great STAB combo, gives access to a lot of situationally great "STABs", and that's sorta cool? I consider this to be a major competitor to Fire/Fairy, offering a very similar resist palette with respect to Grass, Dark, and Fire itself, but trading a slightly worse defensive typing for not having to hold HDB.

Ghost / Dark:
This is an excellent defensive typing, really going hard on the "minimize weaknesses" train, with literally only Fairy hitting it SE initially, which lets you go really hard into the Neutral=>Resist combos, as even if you predict wrong, you're still only taking neutral damage. Bit iffy in terms of "you don't wanna use a non-stab Ghost move", which constrains how much you'd want to run those initial stabs. Keeping Ghost/Dark when hit by Knock is a noted advantage over other Ghosts, as is being unable to be hit SE by chained Ghost moves.

Ground / Flying:
This typing is one of those that really provides a compelling reason to actually use CAP 29, with both a Ground Immune and a Volt Immune, which is great considering that both are attacks commonly used by Choiced mons, which can't punish CC ever, aka our dream. This is also a Ground-typing that can sorta beat up Rillaboom, which is an advantage over the rest of the Ground-typings, as well as a Flying-typing that doesn't die to rocks. Overall a very solid option which gives a lot of neutral matchups, immunities, and at least one good STAB.

Electric / Ghost:
This is another pretty solid typing, really going hard on the anti-flying tack, giving a solid reason for use in terms of just making Tomohawk very sad, which is a niche that a lot of teams would love. It does suffer from the same issue as Ghost/Dark where you sorta hate running non-STAB Sball, which makes movesets a tad difficult, but that's really not a major issue at all. Great number of neutral matchups again, though I do worry that this typing is sorta similar but worse when compared to Ghost/Dark.

Why I'm not considering stuff:
I would like to explain that everything in this section is still a very good typing, its just that between either competition to existing setup mons, or just me not wanting to spoiler effect the slate (A1, A2, B as options, B wins due to A1>B>A2 vs A2>B>A1).

Steel / Fairy:
The issue I have here is twofold; There's a whole lot of steel typings submitted here already and frankly, I don't want to engage in a huge spoiler effect, as well as me not really believing its super wise for us to compete with Magearna given its sheer dominance of the setup sweeper role. While it is possible for us to have meaningful competition with Magearna, its sheer strength means that a difficult project will just become more difficult.

Fairy / Poison:
Again, this is really just its competition with what I view to be a similarly endorsed but slightly more interesting option in Fire/Fairy, which offers very similar defensive merit, while also having Fire STAB that really streamlines our set, with respect to Fire STAB being useful with, or without the actual STAB bonus, which isn't really as true for Poison STAB. There's also a lot of competition between Poison types honestly.

Bug / Ground:
This is an interesting one, but imo its main benefit in terms of keeping base typing when hit by U-turn is sorta complicated by the fact that the most common U-turner is well, Cinderace. This is combined with its competition with the later submitted Ground/Flying, which has very similar defensive merits, trading a 4x Ice weakness for less awkward typing overall and situational access to Flying STAB.

Steel:
Frankly there's just too many Steel typings submitted, and a lot of them are really solid here.

Fairy / Flying:
There's just so many flying types, and this is unique among them for being weak to SR, making it far more restrictive than the others submitted.

Fighting / Steel:
Holy crap so much steel type competition.

Normal / Fairy:
Frankly this feels like its focusing way too much on minimizing the weaknesses of CC, being a hard counter to Pult, a mon that would otherwise eat us, than focusing on the strengths. Although it does have a large number of Neutral=>Resist combos.

This list is not final, if you disagree with something in the consideration list, or not consideration list I can be persuaded, and also the consideration list is intentionally larger than the final slate will be. Also submissions are still open, and evaluations of other typings are still wanted.

Edit:

Bug / Steel: Competition with other Steel types (a common trend) means that really getting into the top list as a steel is gonna be proper hard (again, trying to maximize slate diversity in order to improve voting patterns). Main problem with it is how it interacts with Fire-types, which are a target we noted as possible during CA; it would be difficult to tank Fire=>Neutral or even resisted coverage regardless of possible bulk spread. Hence it not entering the list.

Ground / Fairy: This is really mainly competition, as its competing with a lot of other stuff for a spot, I could be convinced here, but I feel like this typing gets a few autolose matchups (DIB is a literal truck) compared to other ground typings which can access those.
I thought I'd go through the options Quziel likes and give my opinions on them.

Poison/Dark: It's honestly a great option purely for its interaction with Galarian Slowking. Outside of that, it has quite the number of neutral interactions, and seems like a great option for the slate.

Fire/Fairy: I initially didn't really like this typing that much considering switching into Knock Off is something CAP 29 will probably be doing fairly often, but I've thought about it and I think it is worth slating if only for its interaction with banded Rillaboom.

Water/Poison: It's obviously an outstanding defensive typing, and gives us many Resistances -> Resistances. It further turns CAP 29 into a mon that is capable of working against Rain, something I see as an absolute win. I'd say it's absolutely worth slating.

Steel/Flying: Even when I was submitting Fighting/Steel, I knew that Steel/Flying was a better option. It just simply has the best Weakness -> Resistance interactions of any typing, and needs to be slated.

Poison/Dragon: I'm not as much of a fan of this typing as the others. I understand the appeal with regards to Rillaboom, but I feel that Steel/Flying and Water/Poison both do what this typing is trying to accomplish better. In my opinion, it should not be slated.

Grass/Poison: I understand what this typing is trying to get done (it hard pressures Rillaboom), but I don't know if it's our best option moving forward. I wouldn't mind it being slated as I do think the interactions it provides are quite useful, but I also wouldn't mind it being left off.

Fire/Fighting: I honestly like this typing a lot, I just don't know if it offers us a whole lot more than what Fire/Fairy does. I do like the immediate offensive pressure this typing offers, but again, it's another one that I wouldn't mind being on or off the slate.

Ghost/Dark: I really liked this typing when it was submitted, but the more I think about it, the less I like it. I've come to the conclusion that this typing would be fairly restrictive in future stages, namely in stats, and the main draw of this is that it doesn't lose to Dragapult, which honestly will be quite the monumental task with Color Change. After this consideration, I do not think this typing should be slated, even though it provides the most neutral interactions out of any typing along with Poison/Dark.

Ground/Flying: I love this typing for focusing on the "free turns" part of what CAP 29 needs to function. This typing is a full stop to mons like Zapdos and choiced Ground and Electric attackers, and it, more than any other typing on this list, forces switches without having to lose our initial typing. It should absolutely be slated.

Electric/Ghost: This one is really interesting, and I'm fairly torn on whether or not it's good. At the end of the day, it doesn't really have any meaningful resistances, and while I do like the immunities and relatively small number of weaknesses it has, I don't think it fulfills the concept to the fullest. I would hesitantly say that it shouldn't be slated, though I am more than willing to be proven wrong on this one.
 
Coming in at the end with water/ground

Initial weak=>CC resist

The only type that we're weak to is 4x grass, which means we have zero hope against rillaboom but just a 2x weakness to grass isn't going to be different in practice. This type combination instead focuses on a few key neutral=>resist interactions that are backed up by great resists and the ability to act as a volt blocker.

Initial neutral=>CC resist
Ice, psychic, and dark are the types that actualize this. These aren't super common types in the meta but both ice and psychic tend to be very high-powered (tapu lele's psychic, syclant's icicle crash) so a neutrality leaves these matchups opened up for us, should we choose to focus on them. We're neutral to water, but we can't resist it because it's a part of our initial type, which is probably the worst part about this type combination. Being a ground type that can't eventually resist water is a small downside, but it's still ultimately outweighed by the rest of this type's many strengths.

Initial resist=>CC resist
We initially resist steel, fire, and poison for self-resisting types. Steel and fire especially are great types to resist, given how strong some of their attackers are. Heatran is a pretty cool matchup of note here since we resist Magma and it can't change our initial typing with EP, so we're always able to switch in and threaten it out with our Ground coverage to prevent it from chaining SE hits.

8) What further bonuses does this typing offer (SR Resistance, Toxic Immunity, Burn Immunity, Spikes Immunity.., Ghost Immunity, Dragon Immunity) beyond its resistances.
We resist stealth rock which is really nice, and we're immune to electric so we can fill the extremely valued role of a volt blocker. The typing is just generally incredible from a defensive standpoint and it's made a lot better by the fact that we wouldn't have to sacrifice our offensive potential. Our stabs are only resisted by a couple truly relevant pokemon in the meta (rillaboom and hydrei, arguably jumbao and latios too but very rare), and Ground and Water both have great 2 move coverage with a lot of other types so the door is wide open if we opt to not run dual stabs.
 
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