CAP 29 - Part 4 - Typing Discussion

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Subbing mono-Steel.
7) What benefits does Color Change offer this typing?
a) Can this typing set up an Initial Weakness into Color Change Resist combination?

Weaknesses: Fighting, Fire, Ground
Out of these, it can set up a weak-> resist combo with Fire. While Cinderace and Heatran have already been discussed as likely lost causes, and taking a V-create is probably not reachable, there are many examples of weaker Fire moves (particularly Astrolotl's Fire Lash) that we can turn into a resistance.
b) Can this typing set up a Initial Neutrality into Color Change Resist combination?
Neutralities: Ghost, Dark, Water, Electric
Dark, Water, and Electric are all self-resists, so it is definitely capable of setting up this combination. Dark is more of a coverage move type, but we can easily deal with Scald spam. Electric somewhere in the middle, where we may be Volt Switched on, but at the very least, it won't chunk us, and we can take any repeated Electric moves more easily.
c) Does this typing offer consistent switchins, that is, Initial Resistance to Color Change Resistance interactions?
Resistances: Bug, Dragon, Fairy, Flying, Grass, Ice, Normal, Psychic, Rock, Steel
It can maintain Grass, Ice, Psychic, and Steel resistances, all of which had been mentioned earlier as not being particularly accessible for neutral/weak->resist interactions. Steel's resistance to them makes dealing with these interactions a lot easier. In addition, its large list of starting resistances makes it easier to get CAP29 in, and in a pinch you can tank a Draco Meteor without taking additional damage the next turn.
8) What further bonuses does this typing offer (SR Resistance, Toxic Immunity, Burn Immunity, Spikes Immunity.., Ghost Immunity, Dragon Immunity) beyond its resistances.
This type offers a Stealth Rock resistance and a Toxic Immunity. Rather niche, but you also get a starting resistance to Future Sight, can keep your typing when hit with Doom Desire, and take minimal chip if you predict wrong and get U-turned on.
 
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I'll be subbing Poison/Dragon.

I know that we're coming off two Dragon CAPs in a row, but I find that the benefits of the Dragon typing are too great to ignore. On its own, Dragon resists four self-resisting typings in Fire, Water, Grass, and Electric. Coupling it with Poison removes the Fairy weakness and gives us a valuable Toxic immunity. Two of its weaknesses in Psychic and Ice are self-resisting; another, Ground, becomes neutral, leaving this typing somewhat difficult to punish. While this typing is weak to Dragon and will continue being weak to Dragon, most Color Change mons will be unable to switch into Dragon moves anyway, so it's not a major drawback. These factors make it so that Poison/Dragon offers a unique typing that checks most of the necessary boxes, and is able to provide a plethora of switch-in opportunities that other typings may not offer.

Many aspects of this typing are very similar to Poison/Water, with the key differences being swapping an Electric weakness for an Ice Weakness, turning a Grass neutrality to a Grass 4x resist, and turning into a Steel neutrality rather than a resist. Electric moves are used far more often than Ice moves, with notable Electric types like Zapdos, Zeraora, and Krilowatt, and good prediction into these Electric types could give a Poison/Dragon more switch-in opportunities than other typings may offer. Furthermore, the 4x Grass resist allows CAP29 to reliably switch into Rillaboom's Banded Woodhammer, which would 2hko a neutral mon with Color Change. While a Steel neutrality may make switching into Melmetal's DIB tricky, I believe that the openings this typing creates elsewhere makes up for the fact.
 
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Subbing Grass/Poison:

a) Can this typing set up an Initial Weakness into Color Change Resist combination?

Yes: Fire, Psychic and Ice here are initially weak, then resist after Color procs.

Against Fire, some of the main STAB users (Cinderace, Heatran in particular) are always going to be bad matchups, but we have upside against things like Astrolotl's Fire Lash (note: Lotl MU is heavily dependent on what set it actually runs now, post-nerf) and Moltres's Flamethrower (it can Scorching Sands us, but forcing a ground move to make progress is rarely a good situation for our opponents.) We also can match up well into things that run fire as coverage, like Flamethrower Clef and Slowking-G.

Against Psychic, this does make matchups into Future Sight weird, and those are the most common Psychic moves that are used currently outside of rarer picks like the aforementioned Tapu Lele and Latios that we can match up well into. We do threaten out a lot of FS setters, though- we hit the Kanto Slowtwins super effectively with Grass, notably.

Against Ice, you're looking at an awful lot of coverage Ice Beams and not much other than that outside of Syclant.

b) Can this typing set up a Initial Neutrality into Color Change Resist combination?

Yes: We do this with Poison and Steel.

Most notable of these I think is Poison, as we're going to remain Grass/Poison. That makes for a strange MU spread when you're looking at prominent Poisons in the meta now. A lot of these will be quite prediction heavy as they run lots of coverage, such as how Slowking-G runs stuff like Flamethrower and Scald.

c) Does this typing offer consistent switchins, that is, Initial Resistance to Color Change Resistance interactions?

Bigtime Yes: Water, Electric, and Grass. All three of these can be quite impactful, between common moves like Scald for Water, and a good MU spread against common Electrics, but easily the most notable of these is Grass. Staying Poison typed helps us massively with most all Grasses currently: Kartana now is way more limited (we lock out a neutral Sacred Sword and Smart Strike notably- if it wants to make real progress it has to Knock on the most common sets), we eat Jumbao alive, as well as the most common Rillabooms, and can threaten back with potential Poison STAB that's remained as STAB.


8) What further bonuses does this typing offer (SR Resistance, Toxic Immunity, Burn Immunity, Spikes Immunity.., Ghost Immunity, Dragon Immunity) beyond its resistances.

We are Toxic immune, which is a substantial bonus, and we're neutral to Rocks. There's also the whole "powder move" immunity- Spore, Stun Spore, Sleep Powder most notably- which are realistically irrelevant currently. The upsides of Poison moves and the like have been discussed half to death by this point, so I'll spare the additional commentary.
 
I'd like to propose mono-Water

7) What benefits does Color Change offer this typing?
a) Can this typing set up an Initial Weakness into Color Change Resist combination?

Both Grass and Electric are self-resisted typings and are Water's only weaknesses. It's been mentioned already that Rillaboom, Kartana, and Jumbao are all three very hard hitters for Grass, but on the Electric side, I'd say the only real OHKO threat would be variations of Tapu Koko on terrain and Zeraora.
b) Can this typing set up an Initial Neutrality into Color Change Resist combination?
Out of the list of 12 neutral typings, Dark, Poison, and Psychic are all self-resisted. Dark is more common as coverage rather than STAB, but Poison and Psychic both have prominent STAB users, so having the opportunity to set up on these is a bonus.
c) Does this typing offer consistent switchins, that is, Initial Resistance to Color Change Resistance interactions?
Pure Water has four total resistance including itself, the others being Steel, Fire, and Ice. Additionally, all three of these typings are self-resisted, so switching into a Cinderace STAB at worst means you get hit for neutral non-STAB damage on non-choiced sets, same applies for Kyurem and Magearna (non-choiced Melmetal is an exception here) and a few others I've seen in the above posts. It also gives the benefit of negating some negatives of scald, fire lash, triple axel, and lava plume.
8) What further bonuses does this typing offer (SR Resistance, Toxic Immunity, Burn Immunity, Spikes Immunity.., Ghost Immunity, Dragon Immunity) beyond its resistances.
While Water doesn't carry any immunities, it takes neutral stealth rock damage and has access to great STAB and coverage in the form of Ice type moves. Before anyone says "STAB isn't too important," Water is only resisted by 3 types total, and there's a couple of flavorful additions found in Water movepools that offer additional utility. Granted, the benefits of water STAB are more special leaning, but that would negate the concern for burn.
 
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Initial weak=>CC resist
This typing can set up weak=>resist for water and psychic, though psychic is difficult to actualize due to the most common psychic attacks being incredibly high powered. Taking a scald, knowing that you won't be burned, and then resisting the next scald is a very cool interaction though, especially because of how common bulky waters are. No water types are particularly powerful other than barraskewda under rain, and the type itself is incredibly common, so there will be a plethora of opportunities to get the most out of our ability here.

Initial neutral=>CC resist
Fire/Fighting is initially neutral to electric and poison, which are another two of the most accessible self resists imo. Neither attacking type has any rillaboom-esque nuke mon so we can switch in on those types pretty freely and resist them. It's unfortunate that zapdos and kril are somewhat problematic because of hurricane=>electric and surf=>electric respectively, but if we don't switch in on their non-elec STAB then we're fine, and most other electric types should be within our reach to win against. Poison moves are a bit rarer but galarking is the most common and I feel we could do fine against it. I also want to include Initial weak=>CC neutral interactions here since they're effectively the same decrease in power––ground and flying are both types we're weak to initially but could definitely tank if we have the proper bulk/setup options.

Initial resist=>CC resist
Resisting grass means that we'll likely win the rilla matchup and having a steel resist is fairly helpful as well for initial switchin opportunities. Our other resists (fire, ice, dark) are self resisting too, meaning that literally all of our initial resists are also CC resists.

8) What further bonuses does this typing offer (SR Resistance, Toxic Immunity, Burn Immunity, Spikes Immunity.., Ghost Immunity, Dragon Immunity) beyond its resistances.
As I mentioned earlier we're immune to burn when switching in, and there are a fair few situations where we can keep our initial typing as both fire and fighting are decently common attacking types. Both of our STABs are also solid offensively, especially fire since it doesn't have to rely on low BP/highly inaccurate moves. It's very realistic for this typing to a) run its STAB and b) have opportunities to maintain it, which is a great bonus. A 4x resistance to bug is nice to mitigate u-turn but realistically that doesn't actually solve the problem, it's just another very small perk of the type.
 

Wulfanator72

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Subbing Ghost/Dark

The typing focuses primarily on initial neutral damage into Color Change resist as opposed to the other Color Change interactions. Ghost/Dark avoids being weak to any of the self-resisting types (the most important being Fire, Water, Grass, Electric, and Steel) which allows it to switch-in to nearly all potential Color Change targets discussed in concept assessment 2. The typing also initially prevents the self-weak ghost loop at the cost of not being able to fully use color change for dark self-resist. On switch-in, Ghost/Dark prevents fighting into flying combos from Tomohawk and Hawlucha as well as the dark into fighting combo from Arghonaut. A singular initial weakness to fairy, a type that is rarely seen as coverage, means our ability to switch-in is rather free. This type does trade hazard resistances/immunities and status immunities for a larger power budget in later stages of development.
 
Ya boi is back with another type sub. It's time to talk about Ground/Flying

7a) This typing's initial weaknesses are really just limited to Water. Ice type attacks kinda blow it back, but being able to come in on Scald and then stay in is quite nice.

7b) Initial neutralities are a strong suit of this typing. Grass, Fire, and Dark are all types that CAP 29 would be able to come in on weaker attacks (such as Fire Lash or Knock Off) and stay in. This gives CAP 29 nice matchups into Astrolotl and Hydreigon. Steel is also a self-resistant type that CAP 29 would be neutral against, though the relevance of a Steel neutrality is debatable.

7c) The one resistance that this typing has that stays is Poison, which is quite useful in a meta where Slowking-Galar runs rampant. We would additionally be able to further pressure G-King with a super-effective Ground move should it stay in our switch, regardless of whether or not it Sludge Bombs.

8) This typing's main attraction are all the extra benefits it would provide for CAP 29. Namely, a rocks neutrality and spikes immunity are quite nice. Additionally, two important immunities to Electric and Ground would give CAP 29 the free turns it needs to setup and roll through teams, particularly when facing choiced attackers such as Landorus-T and Tapu-Koko. Not having a Toxic immunity is unfortunate, but being immune to Toxic Spikes is arguably fine in that regard.
 
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Subbing Ghost/Poison:

7) What benefits does Color Change offer this typing?
a) Can this typing set up an Initial Weakness into Color Change Resist combination?


Ghost/Poison is weak to Ground, Psychic, Ghost, and Dark. If this typing is setting up initial weaknesses into a resist, it's going to be looking for Psychic or Dark, both of which are fairly prevalent thanks to Future Sight and Knock Off. The interaction with Future Sight is interesting since CAP wouldn't necessarily be weak to Future Sight when it hits, but if CAP is given a free switch, the opponent can't hit it with a Fighting move to completely drop it. Knock Off is much more straightforward and may be where many of these types of opportunities come from. Of those who may carry the move, Clef, Torn-T, Fini, Pex, and Ferro give us the opportunity to switch in and take advantage of the situation. Clef and Fini may be a bit shakier to use this to our advantage since they have STAB to hit us with, but I think that they're generally passive enough where we can still use the switchin to our advantage.

b) Can this typing set up a Initial Neutrality into Color Change Resist combination?


Most other self-resistant types will fall into this category, including Fire, Water, Electric, Ice, and Steel. Of these, we can probably best take advantage of stray Scalds, Flip Turns, Discharges, and Volt Switches. With the last move, though, we will require speed and coverage to sufficiently threaten any ground type switch that may want to come in. The others, however, will allow us to switch in on mons like Pex, Fini, Galarian Slowking, Kril, Zapdos, Koko, and Zeraora.

c) Does this typing offer consistent switchins, that is, Initial Resistance to Color Change Resistance interactions?


The best opportunities for switchins would have to be with Grass and Poison moves. Grass has grown into a formidable offensive typing and gives us opportunities to switch into Rillaboom, Ferro, Jumbao, Kart, and Amoonguss. Poison, on the other hand, would mainly be seen on Nidoking, Galarian Slowking, Cinderace, and Amoonguss. Of these, Galarian Slowking and Amoonguss are probably our safest switchins that we can take advantage of.

8) What further bonuses does this typing offer (SR Resistance, Toxic Immunity, Burn Immunity, Spikes Immunity.., Ghost Immunity, Dragon Immunity) beyond its resistances.


The main opportunity that Ghost/Poison will afford us is on the initial switch because of Immunities and Passives. Of course, other typings may provide these sorts of opportunities as well, but Ghost has to be one of the best. We don't have to worry about any sort of Normal or Fighting moves on switchin. And this sheer fact alone is amazing for us. Assuming we have good-great bulk, the typing will provide us with consistent switchins to Tomohawk, Kerfluffle, Arghonaught, BP Corv, and Urshifu-R. Tomohawk and Kerfluffle are particularly great opportunities to switchin on.

On the passive side of things, we always absorb TSpikes, providing major team support on that end, and give ourselves opportunities to switch in on toxics that may be coming from Pex, Blis, Buzz, or Amoonguss. And while not as passively resilient as Ghost/Steel would've been, I do like being able to take Fire moves and switching in on Astrolotl and Cinderace in a pinch.

It's not necessarily my favorite, but I think that this typing could be very pro-concept. In particular, this is a typing that will focus on providing switch in opportunities without a need to stay in its type. Immunities are best for providing switches, and because of how Ghost coverage is and how we plan to be a bulky setup sweeper, we are not likely to choose to run Ghost STAB and may instead opt for better coverage. So once we're in, we don't really need the typing anymore. And if you had any reservations about the Ghost-Type Weakness, I wouldn't lose too much sleep over it. It's something that we've already acknowledged as something that can hit us hard and most of the Ghosts in the tier are going to rock us anyways.
 
Subbing Electric/Grass here, a very weird typing as it is outside the typical Steel/Fairy/Dragon core that has somewhat swallowed CAP , that have been the most common submission suggestions here, but one that I feel has many important merits, which I'll elaborate on here

7) What benefits does Color Change offer this typing?
a) Can this typing set up an Initial Weakness into Color Change Resist combination?


Yes, out of its 4 weaknesses, 3 are self resisted (Fire, Ice and Poison) and the other is somewhat rare, in Bug, which is hard to combo in to unless you are running Dark/Grass/Psychic + Bug moves (the only combo that comes into mind here is KnockTurn, which is very common, but others don't work.


Onto its weaknesses, Poison is rare and easier to pivot into (Steels) , Fire and Ice are quite common, but self resist, so it's hard to combo it in to achieve any amount of meaningful damage.

b) Can this typing set up a Initial Neutrality into Color Change Resist combination?

Yes, this typing is neutral to Dark and Psychic, of which, the first one is quite common and easy to switch into and the latter is niche. This gives it a concrete niche against many Dark types as opportunity to set up on


c) Does this typing offer consistent switchins, that is, Initial Resistance to Color Change Resistance interactions?

This mon has a base resist to Grass, Water, Steel and a tasty quad resist against Electric, all of which are self resist. This makes it very easy to setup on, considering that 3 of those types are very common (Water, Steel and Electric, though Steel is often coupled with either Fighting or Ground). This makes setting up very easy game to game.


8) What further bonuses does this typing offer (SR Resistance, Toxic Immunity, Burn Immunity, Spikes Immunity.., Ghost Immunity, Dragon Immunity) beyond its resistances.

Being immune to Paralysis, which often cuts sweeps down, being immune to Spore, which is quite common, at least in low-ish ladder and being neutral to the common Flying and Ground moves of the tier.

Other Ideas I am fine with
  • Poison/Fairy
I actually wanted to submit this, but I was late to it, as I like the Dragon and Toxic immunity, as well as having all of its base weaknesses being self resisting.

  • Steel/Flying
Same as above, awesome resistances and both of its weaknesses are self resisting to boost

  • Normal/Fairy
Pretty solid typing overall, I like it

I don't get Rock/Dark and Steel/Fairy is a bit overdone imo, but it works nonetheless
 
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I'd like to propose Poison/Electric. It is a very interesting typing in CAP29's case due to being a very good offensive typing that we can expect to keep at least quite frequently due to both types being fairly common (Even if Poison is generally only seen with Toxic), while still having a lot of strong moves on both sides (like Thunderbolt, Volt Switch or Gunk Shot), which will give us a lot of flexibility on where we want to take CAP 29 in the future. It is also a great defensive typing outside of it's 4x weakness to Ground, having only two weaknesses, which would give it a pretty easy time switching in.

7) What benefits does Color Change offer this typing?
a) Can this typing set up an Initial Weakness into Color Change Resist combination?


Yes, with the Psychic type. That part of the typing, however, isn't the best, because of the sheer amount of damage Tapu Lele deals on weaknesses (which leaves trying to take it's hits well pretty out of the question), and because of Future Sight non-consecutive nature, which means you will usually not have tto take two in a row. It isn't a bad trade because of how good the typing is in other regards though, and of how good it's one of it's only two weaknesses.

b) Can this typing set up a Initial Neutrality into Color Change Resist combination?

Yes, with the Dark, Ice, Water and Fire typing. Even if Cinderace and Heatran are pretty much out of the question due to their coverage being able to take on the Fire typing they give, other weaker Fire attacks (such as non-Stomping Tantrum Astrolotl) will be easier to switch into. The other three are all pretty useful, and they don't have much super powerful attackers (except maybe Specs Kyurem), which makes them pretty easy to switch into and gives off more switch-in opportunities, especially with how common moves like Scald or Knock Off are.

c) Does this typing offer consistent switchins, that is, Initial Resistance to Color Change Resistance interactions?

Yes. It is resistant to Poison, Steel, Grass and Electric (and to Fighting, Flying, Bug and Fairy but those aren't self-resistant, even if they still offer switch-in opportunities). Those are all pretty good to resist, and they're all pretty common (except Poison) which means that those four typings will be consistent switch-in and set-up opportunities.

8) What further bonuses does this typing offer (SR Resistance, Toxic Immunity, Burn Immunity, Spikes Immunity.., Ghost Immunity, Dragon Immunity) beyond its resistances.

This typing gives an immunity to both Toxic and Thunder Wave, which are both extremely useful (the former much more than the latter though) for setting up and sweeping.


I would also like to submit Grass/Ghost.

7) What benefits does Color Change offer this typing?
a) Can this typing set up an Initial Weakness into Color Change Resist combination?


Yes, with the Fire, Dark and Ice typings. Those typings are all pretty common, so we can expect that weakness to resist to happen pretty often. Out of it's two other weaknesses (Ghost and Flying), one become neutral and the other is pretty much a lost matchup for Color Change anyway.

b) Can this typing set up a Initial Neutrality into Color Change Resist combination?

Yes, with the Poison, Steel and Psychic type. Those are all fairly common, and being neutral to the Steel and Psychic type initially and then resisting it is great, as it would allow CAP29 to Switch more easily on strong hits like Tapu Lele's Psychic or Melmetal's Double Iron Bash.

c) Does this typing offer consistent switchins, that is, Initial Resistance to Color Change Resistance interactions?

Yes, with the Grass, Water and Electric type (and with the Fighting and Normal types too, since they're immunities). All of those are common types (except Normal), and being able to consistently switch into them gives a better time switching on Rilaboom, Scald users like Toxapex, Volt Switch...
 
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Birkal

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I've got a lot of thoughts on this thread and the typings people are suggesting, but it's going to take a while to write them all out. For now, I just wanted to comment on a worrying trend that I've been seeing crop up in a few posts here:

I am increasingly leery of perpetuating the Fairy/Steel/Dragon bubble that has swallowed CAP for the past two generations.
Subbing Electric/Grass here, a very weird typing as it is outside the typical Steel/Fairy/Dragon core that has somewhat swallowed CAP, but one that I feel has many important merits, which I'll elaborate on here
This is absolutely not a thing, and a detrimental leap in logic to impose onto a competitive CAP process. The Create-A-Pokemon Project is not beholden to making a specific typing, or avoiding a specific typing. We could make another Bug/Dragon for CAP29 if that's where this discussion took us. Previous CAP typings do not and should not affect our process in any way. If it makes the most sense for us to utilize one of the three typings mentioned in this post, then we should absolutely pursue that typing. I think there's a convincing case to be made for all three of those typings, actually.

If you're the type of person that craves uniqueness and identity, I'd encourage you to consider this: CAP29 is the first CAP to have a less-than-great ability. All CAPs have at least a passable ability, and the vast majority have a really fantastic ability (and several have multiple). That alone is going to give CAP29 a feel that's much different than all of our other creations. Don't attempt to restrict our current CAP29 by some arbitrary guidelines that make no competitive sense. We need to be focused on synthesizing CAP29's concept in the best way possible, and that includes considering all options available to us, regardless of what was decided on for past CAPs.
 
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Dogfish44

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I want to echo what Amamama said with regards to making sure we thing beyond just "We turn a weakness into a resistance", and instead look at the power level of the Super Effective moves we're intending a certain type to switch into (aka: note that Question 6 from Quziel exists). Perhaps I'll best explain it with an example?

I was pondering over Ground/Fairy, because it did a few interesting things. It had four weaknesses, but all four (Grass, Water, Ice, Steel) get conveniently turned into resists. It also boasts two valuable immunities, negating Dragon spam and Volt Switch, and it resists hazards, and it naturally resists Knock Off and U-Turn, which makes both of those Less Horrible to switch into.

So far, so good - it sounds like a typing that checks not only the basic boxes, but a handful of the bonus points as well. However, when I actually checked the sort of numbers we'd need in order to tank the first hits from Grass, Steel, and Ice types? The technical term is 'ow' - these are typings which are hitting ridiculously hard from common STAB sources. Whilst we could absolutely increase our bulk to the needed levels if we desired, that would likely be restricting us in other ways.

For what it's worth, this doesn't mean that Ground/Fairy is a poor typing (I think it's still perfectly sound on the Water front along with Dragon and Electric immunities - and it is possible to use Color Change against weaker weakness --> resis), but we need to be practical in what's going to work, and what's potentially an unfortunate or limiting pothole in the road.
 
This is absolutely not a thing. CAP is not beholden to making a specific typing, or avoiding a specific typing. We could make another Bug/Dragon for CAP29 if that's where this discussion took us. Previous CAP typings do not and should not affect our process in any way. If it makes the most sense for us to utilize one of the three typings mentioned in this post, then we should absolutely pursue that typing. I think there's a convincing case to be made for all three of those typings, actually.

If you're the type of person that craves uniqueness and identity, I'd encourage you to consider this: CAP29 is the first CAP to have a less-than-great ability. All CAPs have at least a passable ability, and the vast majority have a really fantastic ability (and several have multiple). That alone is going to give CAP29 a feel that's much different than all of our other creations. Don't attempt to restrict our current CAP29 by some arbitrary guidelines that make no competitive sense. We need to be focused on synthesizing CAP29's concept in the best way possible, and that includes considering all options available to us, regardless of what was decided on for past CAPs.
I'm so sorry here Birkal, but this isn't my meaning at all, though reading my post can definitely give that interpretation, and my post being rushed due to personal issues definitely doesn't help here at all.

Firstly, Steel/Fairy/Dragon is a very good trio of types, all are meta defining and are pillars of every single Pokémon gen since 2. It makes sense that many typing suggestions are those types, there's just very few types as solid as them. I have nothing against Mons being those types either.

What I meant there was the suggestions in this specific CAP were overwhelmingly leaning to Steel/Fairy/Dragon, like Steel/Fairy, Steel/Dragon, Steel/Flying, Fairy/Poison and Fairy/Normal, and for good reason, those typings work really well with Colour Change.

In fact, I had a massive write up on Steel/Flying written specifically as it seemed like a very logical choice, but it ultimately had to be scrapped to avoid being repetitive, as it didn't add much to the discussion of the post aside from "Yes, Steel/Flying is good". This happened again with Poison/Fairy too

The idea of Electric/Grass was a side idea I had, whose merits definitely exist, but are less obvious than Steel/Flying, I was still wondering about.

I'm not a contrarian at all for the sake of being a contrarian, I'd rather show a different view point, like how at the starting stages of CAP29, people were still confused whether it should work in spite of CC or with it.

I apologize for any disruption of the discussion and I will immediately edit my submission so that my point is conveyed directly. Hope this is a bit more clear Birkal
 
I want to echo what Amamama said with regards to making sure we thing beyond just "We turn a weakness into a resistance", and instead look at the power level of the Super Effective moves we're intending a certain type to switch into (aka: note that Question 6 from Quziel exists). Perhaps I'll best explain it with an example?

I was pondering over Ground/Fairy, because it did a few interesting things. It had four weaknesses, but all four (Grass, Water, Ice, Steel) get conveniently turned into resists. It also boasts two valuable immunities, negating Dragon spam and Volt Switch, and it resists hazards, and it naturally resists Knock Off and U-Turn, which makes both of those Less Horrible to switch into.

So far, so good - it sounds like a typing that checks not only the basic boxes, but a handful of the bonus points as well. However, when I actually checked the sort of numbers we'd need in order to tank the first hits from Grass, Steel, and Ice types? The technical term is 'ow' - these are typings which are hitting ridiculously hard from common STAB sources. Whilst we could absolutely increase our bulk to the needed levels if we desired, that would likely be restricting us in other ways.

For what it's worth, this doesn't mean that Ground/Fairy is a poor typing (I think it's still perfectly sound on the Water front along with Dragon and Electric immunities - and it is possible to use Color Change against weaker weakness --> resis), but we need to be practical in what's going to work, and what's potentially an unfortunate or limiting pothole in the road.
I actually really love this typing that you proposed and its benefits. Having the weaknesses it does should not be a deterrent from choosing it, given no matter what type combination we go with, it'll naturally come with at least one weakness that we'd have to figure out how to circumvent (for instance: with the typing that I submitted, Bug/Steel, there are no ifs, ands, or buts about going around fire). What's convenient though is that at least the weaknesses you listed for your typing is that they're only 2x, and all 4 resist themselves post CC. Perhaps there is a way to have enough bulk to avoid a 2KO by taking it 2x first, CC-ing, then recovering on either the resisted hit (preferably, like against choiced mons) or on weak neutral hits (i.e. for non-STAB coverage). I think your combo should be given some serious consideration, because the ability to trap volt-switchers and maybe actually abuse STAB on the switch sounds like a great benefit to us (on top of being knock-off resistant, hazard resistant, and immune to one of the 2 self-weak types).
 
However, when I actually checked the sort of numbers we'd need in order to tank the first hits from Grass, Steel, and Ice types? The technical term is 'ow' - these are typings which are hitting ridiculously hard from common STAB sources. Whilst we could absolutely increase our bulk to the needed levels if we desired, that would likely be restricting us in other ways.
This is the gap I had in submitting Dark/Rock, on paper I was seeing all these opportunities for a SE to Resist hit that felt pro-concept, but we would need astronomical stats to accomplish it. I don't believe amping up the stats to 11 would be the end of the world here, as it may create some exciting moments using CAP 29 to convert momentum in the player's favour, but I think the balancing act it would require could cause for an overall mess by the end of the concept that will need ongoing work.

That being said, I am still a fan of the typings that have included Dark, as I believe keeping our STAB typing or regaining it when being hit by the ever-present Knock Off would be a massive benefit to allow us to continue to sweep despite losing our item. In particular I find Poison/Dark to have the most potential. Removing the Bug weakness helps us tank U-Turns, switch into Toxic/Toxic Spikes and turn a lot of neutral hits into resists.

I also feel that
Steel/Flying and Poison/Fairy make strong arguments based on their Toxic immunities and strong defensive positions. I considered submitting Dark/Fairy, but I believe Poison/Dark and Poison/Fairy are both superior options, but if anyone wants to make a case for it go ahead.
 

Sputnik

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I'm just going to come in here and say that I believe that the idea of a Toxic immunity is being somewhat overrated here in general. It's definitely nice enough and could let you pivot into certain things like Toxic Melmetal with the right prediction, but realistically we must remember that this thing keeping its base typing for more than maybe one turn is relatively unlikely. Indeed, even if there is a Toxic immunity, many of the better users of the move, like Toxapex and Heatran, have high value moves like Scald and Magma Storm that have very high reward on their own and do not necessitate predicting a Toxic on the switch in many situations and then make you vulnerable to Toxic as a result. Even other things that can run Toxic like Blissey and Swampert can just use their attacking move once and then go from there. Unless this Pokemon has obscene attacking stats that can force out these very bulky Pokemon immediately I don't think having a Toxic immunity will matter that much, especially if the opponent is reasonably competent and will know how to abuse Color Changes downsides.
 
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quziel

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Ok, so keeping in mind that submissions are still open (you can submit more stuff if you do a thorough job, aka more than like one sentence per bullet), I'd like to transition to our next stage.

8) Pick a typing you like (that someone else submitted) and argue why its great here in terms of actualizing Color Change, providing a reason for use, and specifically in the context of a Bulky Setup Sweeper / Pivot / Other roles. (Some possible points, if you have a different angle use it, these are just suggestions)
a) How does this typing, when combined with Color Change, deny revenge Killing?
b) How does this typing, when combined with Color Change, let you set up Neutral / Weak to Resist combos?
c) How does this typing, when combined with Color Change, provide switchin chances?
d) How does this typing provide a reason for use on a team?
e) How does this typing help generate setup or switchin opportunities?
 
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I'm just going to come in here and say that I believe that the idea of a Toxic immunity is being somewhat overrated here in general. It's definitely nice enough and could let you pivot into certain things like Toxic Melmetal with the right prediction, realistically we must remember that this thing keeping its base typing for more than maybe one turn is relatively unlikely. Indeed, even if there is a Toxic immunity, many of the better users of the move, like Toxapex and Heatran, have high value moves like Scald and Magma Storm that have very high reward on their own and do not necessitate predicting a Toxic on the switch in many situations and then make you vulnerable to Toxic as a result. Even other things that can run Toxic like Blissey and Swampert can just use their attacking move once and then go from there. Unless this Pokemon has obscene attacking stats that can force out these very bulky Pokemon immediately I don't think having a Toxic immunity will matter that much, especially if the opponent is reasonably competent and will know how to abuse Color Changes downsides.
Throwing some support behind this sentiment. A toxic immunity is valuable in the sense that it provides more opportunities to switch in for free and maintain our base typing, especially if we can threaten out the toxic user with our STAB; fighting/steel accomplishes this with blissey, steel/flying can switch in on melmetal without fear, and water/poison could do this with heatran, just for a few examples of what I mean. However, the issue with the vast majority of these situations is that the toxic user can generally just go for a second move and follow it up with toxic, and that switching in on toxic itself is incredibly prediction reliant. Sure, a poison/fairy type can switch in on a toxic from colo and threaten it out, but we'd really fear catching an earthquake instead. Having a status immunity is unquestionably a perk, but it's hardly more useful than other bonuses like a stealth rock resistance or spikes immunity. Will probably respond later to the questions that were just posted, but I felt the need to quickly chime in and back up sput's post as I agree that a toxic immunity is being overvalued by some people in their personal criteria.
 
This is absolutely not a thing, and a detrimental leap in logic to impose onto a competitive CAP process. The Create-A-Pokemon Project is not beholden to making a specific typing, or avoiding a specific typing. We could make another Bug/Dragon for CAP29 if that's where this discussion took us. Previous CAP typings do not and should not affect our process in any way. If it makes the most sense for us to utilize one of the three typings mentioned in this post, then we should absolutely pursue that typing. I think there's a convincing case to be made for all three of those typings, actually.

If you're the type of person that craves uniqueness and identity, I'd encourage you to consider this: CAP29 is the first CAP to have a less-than-great ability. All CAPs have at least a passable ability, and the vast majority have a really fantastic ability (and several have multiple). That alone is going to give CAP29 a feel that's much different than all of our other creations. Don't attempt to restrict our current CAP29 by some arbitrary guidelines that make no competitive sense. We need to be focused on synthesizing CAP29's concept in the best way possible, and that includes considering all options available to us, regardless of what was decided on for past CAPs.
Um, what? Where is this coming from? Never mind that previous CAP typings will affect our process by necessity because we delegate a part of the process to checks and counters. I can't tell whether you're taking my comment as an effort to constrain others' proposals (how?) or a rationalization for a less than optimal type combo (it isn't), but I tell you now: I am completely aware our rules are geared towards competitiveness over "uniqueness." You're talking to one of the finks who did trumpet Psychic/Dragon and later Bug/Dragon for 28.

I am not restricting anyone else's submittal. I am restricting my submittal because I find all-purpose type combinations to be such a low-hanging fruit. If that's not clear even after I conceded Fairy is a most alluring option for this concept, I don't know what more to say.

With all of that said, I would like to review what others have suggested.

Let's talk Water / Poison.
See my own post recommending this type combination.

I would like to propose Bug/Ground.
Unexpectedly, I do see some merit in this combination. The one thing about Water/Poison that haunts me is that we cannot capitalize on Electric's auto-resist interaction because the most common Electric move in the tier is the accursed Volt Switch. This suggestion creates switch-in opportunities by way of immunity to exactly that move. In addition, it sports neutrality to Stealth Rock and Grass Glide, which are two moves we identified as dangerous early on, though I must wonder if the benefits are sufficient to justify it over something with actual resistance. Other benefits include maintaining Bug STAB after taking the other age-old pivot move and resisting most of its weak points on the second attack (Ice, Water, Fire). It's a tough sell since we're more concerned about Toxic than Thunder Wave immunity, but I wouldn't wholly dismiss it.

Subbing Grass/Poison:
This is where my head went first before I settled on submitting Water/Poison. My only gripe is that we become less resistant to Grass moves as the battle wears on, but Grassy Glide has a hard time revenge-killing regardless. [CORRECTION: Grassy Glide does not activate Color Change, so this type is in even better standing.] Otherwise, this type combination opens with some other strong resistances that remain intact after the hit (Water, Electric) and an additional status immunity to Spore. Notably, some of the fastest 'mons in play are Electrics that could otherwise go for a revenge kill even after a +1 boost. This combination also enjoys its individual types creating neutralities where they cover one another's weaknesses—for example, it is an uncommon Grass-type that takes neutral damage from Poison and rarer yet the one takes even less on the second go.

...

I should like to discuss additional posts, but I have already been here an hour overlong. Poison/Fairy and Steel/Flying are strong contenders, so I'll leave others to discuss them for now. I'll comment on them in another post if we skip over them somehow.
 
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My only gripe is that we become less resistant to Grass moves as the battle wears on, but Grassy Glide has a hard time revenge-killing regardless.
We don't do this, actually- we remain Grass/Poison, as if you get hit by a move that is one of your typings, you remain as your current type. The reference to Nido is also odd as Sheer Force does not interact with Color Change.


My own .02 on some typings I like:

Steel/Flying is a favorite of mine from the jump. It's a flying type that isn't rocks weak, which I think is huge, and it's probably one of the better typings in terms of holding onto STAB thanks to its immunities. It feels really good at giving us a lot of time thanks to its resists/immunities, and being ground immune is big for what Quz suggested in terms of having a reason to fit this on a team.

In addition, Ghost/Dark has caught my eye quite a bit. It's quite appealing to be super anti Hawk (which otherwise eats us) and having a number of neutralities->resists sets up for a more unique approach at the concept. Wulf's argument of "larger power budget later" also strikes my fancy a bit.
 

G-Luke

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Greetings guys! I'd like to suggest some Typings we can possibly explore for this CAP

First one is Electric / Ground

7) What benefits does Color Change offer this typing?
a) Can this typing set up an Initial Weakness into Color Change Resist combination?


Yes it can! Ice, Grass and Water are all self resistant Typings this Pokémon could be weak to. Unfortunately, practically speaking, Grass will be next to impossible to explore here thanks to the sheer power of the main Grass STAB abuser in Rillaboom. Ice is tricker, as it's commonly a typing locked on choices attackers, but none are on the level Rillaboom offers. Water, on the other hand, can be worked with here, as the most common water attacks are relatively weak Scalds being thrown out by the various bulky water types within the tier, and this is something an Electric Ground type can utilize to its advantage.

b) Can this typing set up a Initial Neutrality into Color Change Resist combination?

Dark, Psychic and Fire are the key typings to note here. We can switch into Dark types like Hydreigon and Tyranitar (particularly the latter), as well as weaker Knock Offs from support Pokémon. Psychic typing is usually found on Future Sight users, which are tricky to navigate with CC, but are still doable. Fire is most impactful in our matchup versus metagame glue god Astrolotl, as we can tank the initial lash and be resistant to further uses of the move.

c) Does this typing offer consistent switchins, that is, Initial Resistance to Color Change Resistance interactions?

Poison and Steel come to mind here, with a much bigger emphasis placed on Steel, as the most common Poisons can hit you with SE secondary STAB. Being able to sit effectively infront of most Melmetals will be pretty great for this Pokémon

8) What further bonuses does this typing offer (SR Resistance, Toxic Immunity, Burn Immunity, Spikes Immunity.., Ghost Immunity, Dragon Immunity) beyond its resistances.

An Electric immunity is always great to have, ESPECIALLY since switching into electric types mean it can preserve it's typing and utilities it's useful stabs unperturbed. That's another main highlight, both Ground and Electric typing have the benefit of carrying strong STABs that have great neutral coverage, and is often great even without STAB behind it. A Stealth Rock resistance is always great for resilience as well.

Second typing I want to suggest is Flying / Fairy

7) What benefits does Color Change offer this typing?
a) Can this typing set up an Initial Weakness into Color Change Resist combination?


Yes it can, the Poison, Ice and Electric typings. As we discussed prior, Ice types are commonly choiced locked breakers, so being consistent checks to these Pokemon it will be less than ideal. Poison types also have a hard time being justified here, as the common offensive Poison type Pokemon in the tier all carry supereffective secondary STAB. Electric types are a more varied, as Pokémon like Zapdos and Krilowatt are not really hard hitters and rely on getting consistent SE hits to deal meaningful damage.

b) Can this typing set up a Initial Neutrality into Color Change Resist combination?


Fire is ofc a major boon here, beating Pokémon like Torkoal and Astrolotl quite comfortably. Water us good here too, and in addition to weak Scalds, we can attempt to tackle the various Water breakers thanks to only being neutral. Psychic is another option, as stated earlier, though in addition to Future Sight, our typing leverages us an advantage versus notable user Latios.

c) Does this typing offer consistent switchins, that is, Initial Resistance to Color Change Resistance interactions?


Here is where this typing can shine, with resistances to Grass and Dark, making it essentially a sure fire counter to anything Rillaboom can toss out, while forcing out every Dark type (outside of, comically enough, Voodoom).

8) What further bonuses does this typing offer (SR Resistance, Toxic Immunity, Burn Immunity, Spikes Immunity.., Ghost Immunity, Dragon Immunity) beyond its resistances.


Having both an immunity to Dragon and Ground gives us several switching opportunities, and the Dragon immunty specifically leaves our typing resilient to the Dragon STAB type situation that naturally hinders color change. Immunity to Spikes is also a major boon, at the cost of a Stealth Rock weakness, which may limit our item options.
 
We don't do this, actually- we remain Grass/Poison, as if you get hit by a move that is one of your typings, you remain as your current type. The reference to Nido is also odd as Sheer Force does not interact with Color Change.
My mistake. I was in a hurry to finish writing, and I have now adjusted the text. I have long been aware of Sheer Force failing to proc Emergency Exit and Berserk, but Color Change is a new one for me. Good catch.
 
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I might be just a little late but I want to suggest FIRE/FAIRY.
Of the 9 types that resist themselves we have a natural resistant to 4 and a weakness to 2, leaving us neutral to the remaining 3. Having a natural resistance to the heavy hitting stabs like we want to switch into like Rillaboom is important as others have mentioned, the bulk 29 would require to Check some of these opposing mons is quite high. The face that our weakness and neutralities are among the weaker of the self resist attacking types allows us to more safely leverage color change by switching into resisted moves. While the Dragon immunity gives us an initial deterrent against dragon spam that 29 would naturally be faced with.
 
8) Pick a typing you like (that someone else submitted) and argue why its great here in terms of actualizing Color Change, providing a reason for use, and specifically in the context of a Bulky Setup Sweeper / Pivot / Other roles. (Some possible points, if you have a different angle use it, these are just suggestions)

I had been thinking about submitting a type combo but we got like all of the ones that are good, so thanks for the chance to comment on others.

Steel/Fairy
Out of every option this is the blandest but also among the most effective, and results > opinion in this case. Everyone does and should know this is one of the greatest type combinations in the game in terms of combined defensive and offensive qualities, but the defensive aspect is what's most valuable here seeing as relying on STAB isn't a given. It resists a ton of important attacking types, has two immunities, and includes a SR resist. The Fire weakness can quickly become a resistance as well, thanks to CC. What does suck is the neutrality (and lack of subsequent resistance) to Steel, which means our potential edge over the likes of Melmetal are squandered, plus being weak to common Ground moves.

Fighting/Steel
I think this is a much cooler choice than the previous. The additional Fighting type provides a neat resist to Dark while maintaining a Steel resistance, and in general actualizes the W>R and N>R a bit more. Being perma-weak to Fighting blows, so I don't think it's as good as Steel/Fairy, but it is an interesting choice and both STABs are pretty threatening and/or spammable given the right tools.

Poison/Dark
Another fantastic type combo, a sole Weakness to Ground does hurt but can be worked around nicely thanks to Rillaboom (both as an opponent and teammate), among other things. Not the most resist-laden against some of our targets but still has plenty of switch-ins, especially with CC giving it extra leverage against Water, Electric, Fire, Ice, the sort. A Psychic immunity and Poison type also screws heavily with Glowking while giving it extra switch-in opportunities and some safety against Toxic. Actually all three typings I posted are immune to Toxic.

Steel/Flying
I really like this one. Both weakness turn into resists, and both of those happen to be weak to Ground, which lends towards pretty straightforward counterplay but not one readily abusable. Having yet another Toxic immunity alongside one to Ground and incredible resilience against hazards makes this very easy to switch in while being quite simple to fit onto a team from a type-balance perspective. We really can't go wrong with this one.

Steel
funny toxic immunity but fr I love the simplicity with pure Steel. It provides us with lot of key resists and all three weakness become neutralities or worse. 3 of the 4 typings that hit us neutrally become resists as well, which is great use of Color Change. Steel/Fairy and Steel/Flying have an 80% chance of being better, but I like the maintained Steel resistance it provides while also not being as weak to the pretty common and sometimes nuclear Electric, yes Fighting/Steel does this as well but losing initial resists to Psychic/Fairy/Flying kinda blows even if Psychic at least resists next turn.

Grass/Poison
I was this close to submitting Grass/Poison but just wasn't confident enough, then chad SHSP does it anyway. Flying is our only weakness that does not become a resist for next turn, and the typing gives us a good deal of status protection, uniquely among the ones I've mentioned also being immune to Powder/Spore moves + Leech Seed. I also like that it's a Poison type not weak to Rocks nor Ground, something that I value a lot, and it is also a Grass not weak to U-Turn or Poison. I really like how this does a lot to annoy Kartana and Rillaboom while also being a big middle finger to Electrics and Waters. Biggest gripe is that it's the most vulnerable to Dragon/Ghost out of anything in this post, but those are pretty poor matchups anyway.

At some points I was also considering Water/Steel and Poison/Flying but became slightly disillusioned with them later. The former gives us good standing against Fire, Dark, and Ice (considering Freeze-Dry), as well as resisting Water and Steel off-the-bat, but the weaknesses and lack of Grass resistance left a sour taste in my mouth (notice how all my liked typings resist Grass: pretty scared of Kart's Leaf Blade and monke's Wood Hammer doing too much for us to handle), while the latter has some sweet resists and works very well with Color Change, but being SR weak is something I want to avoid if possible.

At the end of the day my priorities mainly lied on resist Grass, Toxic Immune, neutral or > to hazards and benefits from CC decently well. All of the six I highlighted give us plenty of maneuverability, not only figuratively for the later CAP stages, but also literally as in getting onto the field and finding opportunity to set ourselves up. If my opinion matters for anything I think the Steel typings are the most reliable but I'd love for the Poison typings to go through.
 
I wanna propose Electric/Ghost. This is one of very few typings that resists both of Tomohawk's STABs on turn one, and cannot be hit super effectively by Tomo on turn two. The vast majority of other typings are hit super effectively by Aura Sphere into Hurricane. It additionally blocks Tomo's Rapid Spin. It has very favorable matchups with things like Hawlucha and Tornadus. It has only three weaknesses and a wide spread of resistances/immunities to aid switching in. It keeps its extremely good STAB and resistances when switching into Volt Switch (while resisting it), and is immune to Thunder Wave.

Our STABs, when we can maintain them, are great to an almost unparalleled extent. On the CAP viability rankings, I believe only Hydreigon and Collosoil resist both. This would make coverage moves almost unnecessary on setup sets and promotes moveset efficiency. This is perhaps this typing's most important niche.

While this typing is weak to Ghost, a self-weak type, it also strongly discourages Ghost-types from switching in due to our own Ghost STAB, which is an enormous boon. and we're always on the lookout for enormous boons

This typing would also grant us a rare niche: that of a bulky Ghost. We won't really find ourselves having to compete for viability with other similar mons because they are vanishingly rare.

7) What benefits does Color Change offer this typing?
a) Can this typing set up an Initial Weakness into Color Change Resist combination?

Electric/Ghost is weak to Dark, which subsequently becomes a resist. With good bulk, we may be able to live two Knock Offs from things like Rillaboom.
b) Can this typing set up a Initial Neutrality into Color Change Resist combination?
Grass, Psychic, Water, Ice, and Fire neutralities become resistances. With sufficient bulk we can switch into these moves with relative ease and perhaps use them as setup fodder.
c) Does this typing offer consistent switchins, that is, Initial Resistance to Color Change Resistance interactions?
Electric, Steel, and Poison resistances remain resistances after Color Change. Fighting immunity also allows us to maintain our typing on fighting moves, making matchups with Tomo, Hawlucha, and Tornadus-T very favorable.
8) What further bonuses does this typing offer (SR Resistance, Toxic Immunity, Burn Immunity, Spikes Immunity.., Ghost Immunity, Dragon Immunity) beyond its resistances.
We are immune to Thunder Wave, Rapid Spin, and Fighting moves.
 
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