CAP 30 - Framework Submissions

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Name: Physical Fairy-type move CAP

Description: A Fairy-type CAP that has a high physical attacking stat and a custom move to compliment it.

Explanation: Right now there are only three notable physical attacking Fairy-type Pokemon. Zacian, a Pokemon so busted that it was banned to AG, twice, Azumarill, which is only a Physical Attacker because of Huge Power, and Grimmsnarl, which is currently in UU. There are also only two physical Fairy-type moves, Play Rough, and Spirit Break. The addition of another move would allow this CAP to have three STAB moves that utilize its Physical Attacking stat... assuming if it somehow gets Spirit Break alongside Play Rough, which might be possible. Ideas for this move include a priority move like Quick Attack or Extreme Speed, a recoil move like Double Edge, or maybe something ridiculous like a physical Fairy version of Eruption and Water Spout.

Possible questions:
  • What Pokemon can this CAP check?
  • Should it be paired up with another type, or should it be mono-fairy?
  • How would the custom Fairy-move act?
I think an idea for this one would be to use Pixilate and moves such as Strength or Quick Attack so as to have not overly powerful Fairy STABs while still maintaining priority, all without the need of creating new moves. However, this mandates Pixilate as the only usable Ability.
 
I appreciate the simplicity of this framework. While a very powerful option, I believe the community has better intuition when it would come to balancing protean/libero compared to the power granted from a legendary framework. I do think the questions posed at the end of this framework are underwhelming. The most important element would be how are we effectively preserving checks/counters? If we disregard prioritizing strong counterplay, we run into the problems seen with both Greninja and Cinderace.
Yeah, I do agree that the questions segment is underwhelming, I think I went a bit too far with underprioritizing strong counterplay. I'll try to fix the questions segment today.
 

Wulfanator

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UPDATE: People who have submitted illegal frameworks are allowed to submits new one. You must edit your existing post when doing this. I am still waiting on an answer if ALL users are allowed to change their submissions.

EDIT: ALL users are free to change your framework at any time provided it is not too frequent and you provide opportunity for others to submit
 
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Name: Fluffy Clone

Description: A CAP with an ability that halves incoming damage from contact moves, but doubles incoming damage from moves of a type decided during processes.

Explanation:
Fluffy is an ability that reduces the damage taken from contact attacks, and it also introduces the equivalent of a weakness to Fire-type attacks. Despite this weakness, the wide pool of contact attacks makes Fluffy an incredibly strong ability, and is almost always recommended on the Pokémon who get it. Unfortunately, no Pokémon with Fluffy has seen serious CAP usage.

Although most physical attacks make contact, not all of them do. Physical-oriented Pokémon that mainly use non-contact attacks include Garchomp, Landorus-T, Colossoil, Pajantom and Syclant. All of these use the non-contact Earthquake as either STAB or coverage. Additionally, Garchomp, Pajantom and Syclant have the respective STAB moves Scale Shot, Spirit Shackle and both Ice Shard and Icicle Crash, all of which are non-contact. Thus, potential immunities aside, all five of these Pokémon would have ways of dealing non-halved physical damage to a Fluffy clone CAP. Contact-making special attacks are much rarer, but one of them is Draining Kiss, which is commonly run on Tapu Fini. This can be used to the CAP's advantage.

The custom angle here is which type's incoming damage should be doubled. Depending on the types chosen, this can nullify a resistance, introduce a new weakness, or exacerbate an existing weakness. This, combined with the contact damage reduction above, can be used to form a CAP with a unique set of strengths and weaknesses.

Possible questions:
  • When should the typing weakness be discussed? Should it be before, during, or after the typing discussion?
 
Name: Runner-Up CAP

Description: Two CAPs are created, the first of which follows a regular CAP process. The second of which will at some point branch off of the first CAP by using the runner-up option of one, or multiple competitive polls. After that the second CAP will continue to be created as a second regular CAP process but still following the same concept.

Explanation: As an onlooker to many CAP projects, I sometimes find myself wondering how a given CAP would have turned out differently if a few votes swung in a different direction. A project such as this would allow us to take a glimpse into that alternate universe.

Ideally a separate framework assessment would proceed to determine when the second CAP would split off of the first by taking the runner up of the poll(s) (eg at the secondary ability stage; at the stats stage; at both typing and primary ability), as it would allow the community to determine which would give us most insight into the project process.

I think it will also be very interesting to see just how different the two pokemon may end up being, while ultimately being created from the exact same concept.
Made some edits to my submission based on feedback from discord and the thread. Mainly honed the process to only take the runner-up option of one or multiple polls and "split off" from there to ensure the second CAP is created in a competitively mindful way.

Thanks to everyone who provided feedback!
 
Name: no Idea yet

Reasons: I’ve been thinking of a rockhead based ground/rock mon. But I don’t know if it’s ok since there’s already a recoil based mon(is it recoil based?): pyroak.

Suggestions: My only suggestions too it is to let it have a majority of the recoil moves(head smash, wood hammer/wild charge no exception. Please find a way).

Please?: If you can, can you make a ground type head smash? It’s technically not completely fake, it’s headsmash but ground type.

Please and thank you - Imsogoingtolose(sorry for the not very clear suggestions)
 
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Name: Speed Body Press

Description: A CAP that abuses a speed-variant of Body Press

Restrictions:
  • The custom move must be 80 Base Power to match Body Press
  • The custom move must calculate damage using the CAP's speed stat
Explanation: Body Press is a very interesting move, as it is a means of dealing direct damage without having a high attacking stat. A speed variant would have the same opportunities. I'm leaving the physical/special category open, as it can provide interesting combinations. Similar to Psyshock, this would allow the CAP to hit both the physical and special sides of the spectrum, and target the opponent's weaker defense stat. Some examples of archetypes would be a physical attacker using a special speed variant, a special attacker using a physical speed variant, or a support/lead that doesn't have high attacking stats at all.
 
Name: Multiple Weather Abilities

Description: This pokemon would have multiple 5 turn weather setting abilities (eg, Drought, Drizzle, Sand Stream)

Explanation: Despite existing since generation 3, there has never been an official or CAP pokemon with multiple different weather abilities. These abilities offer a wide array of offensive and defensive benefits (and weaknesses) but we have never seen a pokemon that makes you consider those options and pick one. Similar to -ate choice or multi attack, the CAP30 user can change itself at the teambuilder level to fit what it's team needs or what it wants to beat with coverage and defensive boosts. However, it helps avoid the guessing game of those by announcing itself once the pokemon comes into battle, and it may be hurting it's team if it wants to choose a weather that dis-advtanges it's teammates. I think this will create a unique cap that gives the user much more customization in teambuilder than other CAPs.

Questions:
What different benefits (offensive or defensive) can we give to each ability, through typing or movepool, to make the choice of ability meaningful?
Are there times where CAP 30 would choose an ability that benefits the team more than itself, and vice versa?
Can we make an educated guess at which ability CAP30 has at team preview, based on team composition?
Is it worth sacrificing the obvious ability that benefits the team to lure an opponent with an unexpected coverage option?
 
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Name: Permanent Health-Based Form Change

Description: This CAP will have a custom ability which functions like Power Construct, Changing the base form into a new form when health reaches a certain threshold. (And not reverting to the base until the battle is over.)

Explanation: Power Construct is an interesting ability, being the only form change which alters the base HP stat. With Zygarde, this is all the ability really does, acting as a huge heal when half health is reached. This framework can also be though of like a more permanent Zen-Mode. The slight other changes Zygarde recieves shows the ability is not limited to health. Other stats and even typing could be altered when the ability triggers. While ability and movepool remain constant, the rest of the pokemon could change drastically when critical HP is reached.
Multi-Ability Ability is out, Permanent Health-Based Form Change is in. Pretty similar to some of the other form change frameworks, but I think Power Construct has some interesting mechanical differences which make it stand out.
 
WIP, feedback appreciated

Name: Multiple Weather Abilities

Description: This pokemon would have multiple 5 turn weather setting abilities (eg, Drought, Drizzle, Sand Stream)

Explanation: Despite existing since generation 3, there has never been an official or CAP pokemon with multiple different weather abilities. These abilities offer a wide array of offensive and defensive benefits (and weaknesses) but we have never seen a pokemon that makes you consider those options and pick one. Similar to -ate choice or multi attack, the CAP30 user can change itself at the teambuilder level to fit what it's team needs or what it wants to beat with coverage and defensive boosts. However, it helps avoid the guessing game of those by announcing itself once the pokemon comes into battle, and it may be hurting it's team if it wants to choose a weather that dis-advtanges it's teammates. I think this will create a unique cap that gives the user much more customization in teambuilder than other CAPs.

Questions:
What different benefits (offensive or defensive) can we give to each ability, through typing or movepool, to make the choice of ability meaningful?
Are there times where CAP 30 would choose an ability that benefits the team more than itself, and vice versa?
Can we make an educated guess at which ability CAP30 has at team preview, based on team composition?
Is it worth sacrificing the obvious ability to benefit the team to lure an opponent with an unexpected coverage option?
This is just a concept, not a framework
 
This is technically a framework others have already proposed earlier in the thread. However, I think the real potential and CAP-relevance of the framework was overlooked, so I’m “re-submitting” it.

Name: Non-Uber Cover Legendaries

Description: A pair of box-art-tier legendaries whose high BSTs are used to enable builds that’d otherwise be unusable.

More precisely, the restrictions / affordances are:
  • Two mons
  • Both have identical BSTs of ≥660.
  • They share a typing AND/OR have conceptually similar abilities.
  • Either each of the two has a signature move, or the pair shares a signature move.
Explanation:
This will cover Legendary Duo and Cover Legend CAP.

I think these frameworks risk being detrimental to the metagame. I do not have faith in the community to navigate this type of project with the finesse it requires let alone twice. We have struggled in the past with power balance, especially during Jumbao’s, Equilibra’s, and Astrolotl’s projects. The last thing we need is to greenlight an excess amount of power (more than the example projects I listed) and not be able to responsibly build with it. I think there are only a few routes we could take that avoid an absurd final product and getting users onboard with these reasonable routes will potentially be a difficult task. I am willing to reconsider my stance, but I know for a fact a duo is beyond our capabilities as a community.
I think the bad habit of overpowered CAPs is motivated by: after 8 generations of power creep, even the average non-CAP OU Pokemon has a fairly well-optimized typing / ability / movepool / stat spread. It isn’t hard for an on-paper great Pokemon to fall through the cracks. So people worry that the concept they spent months contributing to won’t meet the mark without that little bit of extra edge.

“Power Budget” - the idea that you can only afford so many strong tools before you become Overpowered - is brought up a lot, but I think the opposite - “Slack Budget”, where you can only afford so many not-perfectly-optimal traits before you become Outclassed - is on people’s minds just as often, invisibly and namelessly.

A box-legendary stat spread bypasses this concern. >650 BST unhampered by Truant / Slow Start is (in Gen 8’s mega-less meta) viable by default, and is a huge windfall of Slack that can be spent exploring ideas that we otherwise wouldn’t.

Put another way, the central question of this framework is: what can we get away with when we know, going in, that our power budget is being spent on stats?

Some hypothetical examples to illustrate potential concepts (beyond just redoing Kyurem):
  • Alternate takes on low-tier concepts (eg Steam Engine while 4x weak to Fire)
    • Coalossal invests so many stat points into the bulk needed to eat a 4x effective hit that it ran out of points to spend on its offenses. With a higher BST, it could make more practical use of that ability.
  • Theoretically-plausible but ridiculous strategies (eg pure accuracy-boosting setup)
    • As an alternative to standard eg Nasty Plot / Swords Dance setup; the mon could have a high attack stat that needs no boost, but only inaccurate moves too inconsistent to use without an accuracy boost.
  • Unusually strict restrictions elsewhere (eg Hyper Beam or Sky Attack as its only viable STAB move)
    • Theoretically, these moves are another alternative to NP/SD setup, or lite Z-moves. Practically, though, the power gains over single-turn moves are too marginal, and the consequences of losing a turn too steep. However, a mon with high enough base attack and defenses might not be as bothered by these problems.
  • Otherwise-outclassed strategies with odd side effects (eg setup with Rototiller or Screech)
    • Related to how Zamazenta-C could only boost with Howl; there are a variety of subpar boosting moves with rarely seen effects, that a sufficiently strong mon could afford to have to use. Would likely necessitate some form of item restriction.
  • Strange anti-synergies (eg Water-type with Drought; Dragon/Flying-type with Misty Surge)
    • An alt take on a neutral/hindering ability, where the ability itself is good on paper but the mon can’t benefit from it. Field effects are particularly interesting because of how foes and allies could use it.

Some other benefits of this framework:
  • Can easily include other proposed frameworks; eg forced Normal-type, the various pair-based frameworks
  • That all box legendaries have custom elements actually gives more flexibility with how we execute the eventual concept(s); eg we could build around STAB Hyper Beam or Zap Cannon without being forced to run a type of one of the existing variants; we could have a Bug/Ice with a Steam Engine clone that doesn’t send the artists to Hell.
  • Having two output mons lets us approach the premise from multiple directions at once. We could make two variations of the same concept (eg anti-synergy with rain + sun), or two completely unrelated concepts.
    • However, should two really be too much, the framework wouldn’t break with only one new mon. The exact implementation of this part could be put to vote or something.
 

Brambane

burn the midnight oil
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Name: Re-typed Move

Description: This CAP has access to a signature move that is an otherwise exact clone of an existing move, except it has a different typing.

Explanation: There are a lot of unique offensive moves that would pigeon-hole us into specific typings, i.e. how Spirit Shackle and Doom Desire restricted typing in the past. This framework would allow us to crack open the creative process when it comes to typing and better explore moves with interesting mechanics, like Body Press, Psyshock, Aura Wheel, V-Create, Foul Play, Explosion, etc etc. This framework modifies the process by adding an additional step during concept assessment, or at least prior to typing discussion, to decide what move we should retype. The typing of the move should be submitted alongside the typing of the CAP. In theory this framework could explore adding typing to the move at a later stage, but I believe this would complicate the checks/counters and stats stages.
 

Birkal

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Name: Unused Pokemon CAP

Description: A CAP that is loosely based on, retrofitted as, or inspired by an unused Pokemon design, a beta Pokemon design, or a disputed Pokemon design.

Explanation: GameFreak and The Pokemon Company has a dearth of designs that have been unused throughout the years. The global Pokemon community is fascinated by their existence, and has been for decades. Any unused assets capture our hearts and imaginations; we love to wonder what "could have been" had this franchise gone another way with its character design. With this concept, we would reignite that urge and reimagine what it would be like to have one of these designs brought forward into the 8th generation of competitive Pokemon.

Obviously the community would decide which of the routes to explore for this framework, but I believe a few ground rules might be prudent. Capsule Monster designs and general unused designs could be considered, including Gorochu, Deer, and Crocky. However, altered designs should not be open for consideration, since they were clearly revamped into official Pokemon (e.g. the beta designs for Pokemon like Ivysaur, Dragonair, and Raikou). Any other beta designs would be available for this framework, even ones based solely on spritework and speculation. It's important to note here that if we select a pre-evolution beta design, we would also need to develop its evolution(s) as well (some examples include Kurusu and anything from these images). And finally, the disputed Pokemon category has a lot of depth to explore, from in-game lore (non-cyborg Genesect, the Pokemon that provides bones for Vullaby/Mandibuzz, the origins of the Dreepy family) to anime/manga designs that are not canonical Pokemon (unnamed arachnid from The Superhero Secret or unknown cat creature from Pokemon Origins: Episode 1). We could even consider disputed designs from far-reaching Pokemon media, like MechaMew2 from Pokemon Live! the musical. There's clearly a lot of unused material for us to repurpose as inspiration for this framework!
 
Given it appears we're nearing the end, I wanted to highlight a few of my favorite frameworks.

Normal Type CAP: I feel this framework is a great balance of being open enough to remain interesting and focused enough to lead to excellent discussions and a good end result. Particularly since the only Normal types to work their way into OU and UU consistently are Blissey and Chansey, this is a great opportunity to see what it takes to thrive as a Normal type in the CAP meta outside of massive amounts of special tankiness.

Freeze-Dry Clone: This option really appeals to me in its simplicity and potential. This would really give us some great options to target top threats in the current CAP meta in a reasonable way. I feel this gives us massive creativity for how to tackle this project but a good focal point, and some excellent fodder for discussions on threats and counters.

Mythical Pixie Pokemon: I have always been a big fan of the Pixies, and have (mostly unsuccessfully) forced a number of them on to my teams. This is a more confined framework given how impactful the stat restrictions are, but I think CAP could really make a balanced Pokemon with some flexible playstyles using this option.

EDIT:

Runner-up CAP: Seeing some of the others point out this concept, I do find it extra interesting. I tend to lean more on the new mechanics than process changes, but this one has grown on me substantially. Getting two unique results without putting a huge burden (except I imagine the art crew) on the CAP community seems extra interesting.
 
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I guess I'll share my favourites too outside of Giratinas:

Genie/Deoxys Forms: I like the idea of an out of battle form change. In stats there is always an argument for different routes to take, and Deoxys is an excellent opportunity to say "why not both?" and try out multiple solutions. This is something I would have loved to do with previous CAPs and here is the golden opportunity being handed to us.

In Battle Form Change Ability: This is a really vague framework since it can apparently lead to any of the abilities which makes me much more wary to vote for it. But I like the idea of getting to use Stance Change or Shields Down or Battle Bond in particular, something that would be a lot of fun and feel like a special cap.

Silvally/Arceus mons: I like this. It creates a really interesting setup where we might find a middle ground between silvally being shit and arceus being great, plus it gives us a Normal type cap which everyone seems to like a lot and also makes our first monotype cap in what, decades? Its quite an exciting prospect and not as intensive as making 15+ mons might seem, as we can focus discussion around optimal types and let the other types be more flavor/inevitably unviable. Can we make multiple monotype mons work in CAP, probably without abilities? I would be intrigued if we could.

tldr I want to make a framework cap that can only be achieved with a framework, but without custom attacks or abilities. If its something that could potentially be done in a non-framework cap, then I don't really want to do it this time round while we have a special opportunity, like having fixed abilities or typings.
 
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I gotta admit that I like the idea of a CAP whose art comes first. Re-interpreting a Spaceworld or later beta design to become a CAP was something I was hoping to see submitted here since we were considering a second Framework. I hope it makes the slate, as Farfetch'd as it may seem at first.
 

MrDollSteak

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I thought I'd also join the band wagon of writing a quick post about some of the frameworks that I'm most excited by (in chronological order of post)

Genie/Deoxys Forms and Giratina-style forms: I've lumped these two forms together in a similar way to Wulf because I think they're functionally quite similar in terms of their implications for the process overall, even if there are some minor differences in the forms themselves. I think both set very clear and detailed limitations in terms of species-clause and shared typings, andcan really force us to think about the different ways we can utilise the typing and movepool stages to fit different Pokemon. I have no major preferences between the two since the main differences are in regards to the use of items, which while interesting enough to differentiate them, isn't something that is making me lean either way.

Form Change Ability triggered by a Move: I personally really like how specific this framework is in regards to its imitations of having the form change tied to a move. I think it does a great job of explaining what it aims to achieve and sets some very important restrictions which will allow the project to run smoothly. Both Aegislash and Cramorant which are listed as examples are very interesting Pokemon, and I'm sure that CAP will be able to create something equally interesting and flavorful with the tools at our disposal. I look particularly forward to deciding what move is used and what the specific effect of the ability is, such as a simple stat swap with Aegislash, or an on-trigger effect like Cramorant.

Random Slates: Boy am I glad quziel submitted this. This is one of the frameworks that I was first thinking about submitting based upon interesting discussions over Discord in the past few weeks and didn't have the Pokeballs to do so. I think the specific limitations that quziel entertains are effective ways to try and make the idea of randomness feasible and sets up great practical considerations for us. I personally would really like to see stats could be partially randomised as well. As crazy as this particular framework sounds, I actually think it would be rather tame in implementation and result in productive discussions that could lead to some really unique end products that CAP might otherwise never make.

Runner-Up CAP: This is another one of those really interesting process suggestions that I think really utilises the affordances of a Framework well. It is one of the more simple suggestions at a quick glance but I actually think has some of the broadest implications for the process at large and will result in the most distinct and unique end products in my opinion, without putting any substantial strain on the stages. It is really rather elegant in terms of what it achieves, and there's not much more to say than it will really show off CAP at its best.
 

quziel

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Name: Weak Status Move Ability

Description: This CAP has a custom ability that uses the effect of a weak status move upon switch-in.

Explanation: Currently abilities such as Drizzle, Intimidate, and Grassy Surge functionally activate a status move upon switch-in, and currently these are some of the strongest abilities in the game. This framework would aim to explore a weaker, niche status move, and see how effective it could be as an ability. While most status moves are clearly broken in this context, I believe other moves can act as balanced, but strong abilities. Some abilities that come to mind include Magic Room, Reflect Type, Imprison, Laser Focus, Recycle, and Torment.

Questions to be Answered:
- How can we reliably determine the effectiveness of a status move as an ability without being able to test them?
- Can a competitive mon be created by using a strong ability while sacrificing in other areas?
- Is there anything that can be learned from Colossoil's process, which did functionally the same thing with Rebound acting as Magic Coat?
Yo this is cool, there's a load of really horrid moves that suddenly become very cool when you get them for free. I like this one.
 
While reading over these submissions, I noticed that some of the frameworks have already been done recently - more specifically, on Flash CAP.
Probably not a big deal, but interesting to note anyway.
 
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Wulfanator

Clefable's wish came true!
is a Pre-Contributor
Round 3. This will probably be my last round of feedback before a slate is submitted. Consider this your 24 hour warning. I plan to finish this thread tomorrow at midnight (12am GMT-4).
I think the possibilities with this concept are incredible. Traditionally underwhelming moves become incredibly potent when automatically activated. Field effects like magic room would have to be blacklisted from the conversation since no items for 5 turns warps the meta too drastically. Otherwise, I am very interested in the design space allowed by this framework.
This is one of the more interesting in-battle ability changes, so I would be onboard with this specific route. I am not sure we would even need to create a brand-new ability depending on how Power Construct’s code is written. People would be able to identify it with greater ease if we are able to just use the ability “as-is”, especially with its original name. I am leaning towards including one of the in-battle form change frameworks but am still unsure as to which one.
This can be submitted as a legal concept.
This will cover Sandstorm-Abusing CAP and Multiple Weather-Setting Abilities.

Without the limitations, both submissions could be submitted as legal concept. They would just be a single concept where we design a Pokémon that use weather. We have Jumbao and I think the community would naturally push us in one of the two directions proposed here to differentiate from an existing creation.
I think the edit has helped push this framework in a better direction, but I am still unsure of the need for a new physical fairy-move. With the recommended clones from the edit, people will inquire why this is not just a physical pixilate framework. I can see that a new move would avoid locking us into a specific ability, but I think this framework would have benefitted from using different example clones. Moves like dual wingbeat, fire lash, gyro ball, and body press could have been better examples since it is functionality the type does not already have and does not elicit the pixilate criticism. Please note there are plenty more options than what I have list. I am just trying to create a starting point if you wish to build upon what you currently have.
Pixies have been falling out of favor this generation compared to previous ones. If this is a trend we will continue to see, I would like to explore what it would take to keep them competitively relevant moving forward. I think this strikes a nice balance between flavor and competitive that everyone could support. Although, we would remove the need for a stats SL this project.
I could see this yielding an interesting final product for us. I think this is a better use of frameworks compared to flash cap option previously subbed. I think we would need to heavily look at balancing the immunities provided by primordial sea/desolate land with the base power boosts their respective type-moves get.
I am trying to find an approach that would keep this interesting, but I am struggling. Art railroading competitive stages stands to create a situation where we are trying to force a square peg into a round hole. Trying to artificially create a need for this mon does not sound like an appealing process.
There is nothing inherently wrong with this framework. I like that the custom element is something that is more of a problem for the user playing with the mon than a problem for user playing against it.
If you just focus on the recoil element of this framework, you can submit it as a legal concept. “This mon would use recoil/self-damaging moves.” You would not want to specify specific moves, types, and abilities if you decide to do this.
I am most curious as to why pick speed compared to special defense. The clone would be more 1-to-1 with the existing mechanic. Now, it is incredibly messy and risks being less intuitive for new players. I just am struggling to justify this.
This could work. I think whatever move we pick needs to fill a missing role in the new types movepool to warrant the reskinning. Stronger aqua jet (i.e. water extreme speed) seems dull given the design space this framework would permit.
How much of the project is this overriding? “Loosely based” leads me to believe we can fully deviate from the initial design path of whatever mon we select. If not, I think this poses the same problem I had with the Art First framework. Also, I think this would negatively impact art since , in most cases, it forces artists to conform to the source material. I am usually not one to concern myself with flavor, but I do think most of the charm our project has comes from art. I think there are only a few routes we could take this framework that could keep everyone happy (i.e. things like the bones from Vullaby/Mandibuzz).
 
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