CAP 30 - Part 1 - Concept Assessment

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Wulfanator

Clefable's wish came true!
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Hey all. I am still working on gathering my thoughts from all the new responses. I think the obvious thing to share is that typing will be shared in its entirety between forms.

I think consensus is favoring picking 30i's ability => typing => 30b's ability, but I would like to hear more about the idea of picking an ability and then assigning the ability to a form after the fact.

lastly, I wanted to share that I am planning to close this thread in 48 hours.
 

Zetalz

formerly Zetasniper
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I think consensus is favoring picking 30i's ability => typing => 30b's ability, but I would like to hear more about the idea of picking an ability and then assigning the ability to a form after the fact.
Divorcing ourselves from assigning an ability to a specific form until after typing is definitely the way to go. Constraining ourselves to anything at this stage with what little we know on cap 30 isn't necessary, and we can have a far more involved discussion after typing.
 

MrDollSteak

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I have very little to add in terms of new discussion but do want to throw some weight behind Kj's specific suggestion. This is something I have thought about and discussed a little bit on Discord as well, because I think limiting the first ability choice to either the Base or Item form is needless hamstringing. At the end of the day there are very few abilities that could not work for both forms, being limited basically to those that interact with specific items such as berries, and as such there is really no reason for discussion to suggest or clarify who it will belong to prior to being voted in outside of these edge cases. Once an ability is chosen, more discussion can be had about it to the point that it then becomes clear who it would be better suited for, and as such allowing flexibly for the second ability discussion to be tailored to either the base or item form as necessary.

I personally wouldn't be opposed to doing both abilities first, but I can understand why there is support for having typing chosen in the middle to at the very least guide one ability as a means to ensuring both can synergise with it to some extent.

With that in mind I think the most likely way we would set it out is:
Primary ability => role and form discussion => typing => primary ability for second form
 
I also don't have much new to add to the conversation lol. After reading over the discussion thus far, I'm starting to agree with the idea of picking an Ability and then assigning the Ability to a form after the fact. It just makes sense to address each form separately to make sure each one works with it's Ability to the highest degree possible. I personally don't think the particular order, (i.e., 30i going first vrs. 30b going first) matters much, but I agree that we should pick an Ability, discuss which form it would be best suited for, then pick an Ability for the other form. I'm also still not sure if deciding on Type in-between Abilities is any better than afterward, but that certainly seems like the way the wind is blowing, so :blobshrug:.
 
Primary ability => role and form discussion => typing => primary ability for second form
Let's see what would happen if we do that shall we?

there're four things that can happen
1- We decide on an ability that synergizes with 30i's item, decide on a role, decide that that ability and role fit 30i, decide a typing, decide on an ability for 30b
2- We decide on an ability that synergizes with 30i's item, decide on a role, decide that that ability and role fit 30b, decide a typing, decide on an ability for 30i
3- We decide on an ability that doesn't synergize with 30i's item, decide on a role, decide that that ability and role fit 30i, decide a typing, decide on an ability for 30b
4- We decide on an ability that doesn't synergize with 30i's item, decide on a role, decide that that ability and role fit 30b, decide a typing, decide on an ability for 30i

we don't want 2 or 3 unless we want to twist CAP 30 into a knot later just to compensate

now what happens if we go 30i ability => role discussion => typing => 30b ability?

then two things can happen
A- We decide on an ability that synergizes with 30i's item, then decide on a role for 30i, decide a typing, decide on an ability for 30b
B- We decide on an ability that doesn't synergize with 30i's item, then decide on a role for 30i, decide a typing, decide on an ability for 30b

we don't want B for the same reason we don't want 2 or 3

so what are we gaining when picking an ability and then assigning the ability to a form after the fact exactly?

freedom? how exactly? in both cases 2 and 4 are still deciding on an ability that synergizes with 30i's item, only even more constrained since we already have a typing by then; and we don't want 3

"Ah, but we aren't constraining ourselves by consciously thinking about forms" but we are constrained to forms and we are constrained to one of those forms' item is just that in primary ability => role and form discussion => typing => primary ability for second form we aren't consciously picking an ability and in 30i ability => role discussion => typing => 30b ability we are consciously doing exactly that

in one we pick an ability that, whether we know it or not, works either well or poorly with 30i's item

and in the other we make our best so that we pick an ability that works well with 30i's ability

so 30i ability => role discussion => typing => 30b ability is the best option

unless your argument is that we'll somehow learn more by not actively thinking about our options in advance

or you think that the item is a minor consideration in which case Knock-Off would like a word with you
 
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I disagree with Rapti's analysis simply because the vast majority of abilities are item-agnostic.

I find their scenarios 2 and 3 to be quite likely, in fact, because synergy between an ability and a Griseous Orb-like item is likely to be weak at best:

2- We decide on an ability that synergizes with 30i's item, decide on a role, decide that that ability and role fit 30b, decide a typing, decide on an ability for 30i
3- We decide on an ability that doesn't synergize with 30i's item, decide on a role, decide that that ability and role fit 30i, decide a typing, decide on an ability for 30b
I'd say that some intriguing abilities like Weak Armor, Steam Engine, Water Compaction, and Rattled can easily go on 30i even though they ignore items or even favour type-resist berries on paper.

Some abilities that tend to go on offensive mons (in Balanced Hackmons, at least) and therefore may stack with 30i's item on paper such as Triage, Merciless, and Stakeout can easily go on 30b, maybe even due to the perceived belief that several of those abilities may actually be too dangerous if fully optimized (to put this in perspective, Stakeout is banned from BH).

I'm a full supporter of picking abilities before roles, but I've always actually thought that the most intuitive order to pick is Ability 1 -> Ability 2 -> Which Ability on Which Form -> Roles -> Typing. From my experience with Balanced Hackmons, I'm of the fairly strong opinion that typing matters the least when it comes to optimizing an ability, and the part where typing most matters is its synergy with movepool - or, rather, moves that synergize with an ability the best (e.g. draining moves with Triage, powerful moves that lower your own stats with Contrary).

It would be an intriguing exercise to come up with a typing that at least passably supports 2 wildly disparate abilities (e.g. Kartana in BH is seen with Triage and Unburden reasonably often - Triage synergizes with STAB Horn Leech, while Unburden Imposter-proofs a Belly Drum sweeper that can OHKO its own Blissey-HP Imposter with V-Create and just needs to reliably outspeed the Imposter - note how iffy Grass/Steel looks on an offensive mon with Triage and Unburden). Note, with the Kartana example, how willing I am to support iffy typing matches for any given pair of abilities.

I suspect that picking which ability goes on which form and which role(s) each form have will be heavily interconnected and might even be discussed at the same time (e.g. say we pick Stakeout to go on the nerfed offensive form, now which of 30b and 30i looks like the better nerfed offensive form?). It's likely better to pick a typing with the mon's roles in mind, though (a bulky offensive mon cares quite a lot more about a decent defensive typing than a hyper offence mon, for example, while the hyper offence mon cares more about potent STABs).
 
I'm very new to CAP and don't have the best understanding of the process, so take what I say with a grain of salt. It seems to me that most of the proposed orderings of role/ability/typing/form would work fine, so long as we decide 30i's ability before doing typing.

The sequences Ability 1 -> Ability 2 -> Form Discussion -> Typing and 30i Ability -> Typing -> 30b Ability both prevent this from occuring. However, Ability 1 -> Form Discussion -> Typing -> Ability 2 could end up giving Ability 1 to 30b (which is fine in itself), then picking a typing that constrains our ability and role choices for 30i. For example, giving CAP 30 a hazard-vulnerable typing will discourage abilities/roles that involve pivoting as 30i can't run boots, while a typing with poor offensive STAB won't synergise with the item, hindering the optimisation of offensive abilities/roles. This is a worst-case scenario of course, and we can make up for these problems in the stats and movepool stages (although because BST and movepool are shared that risks indirectly buffing 30b).
 
We can probably discuss which abilities we want in the same thread and poll them separately, but we should decide what these forms to do before even considering typing. I do prefer discussing aspects in the following order: CAP 30i ability before typing, then 30b ability. Regardless, stats should be discussed last.
 
I'd say that some intriguing abilities like Weak Armor, Steam Engine, Water Compaction, and Rattled can easily go on 30i even though they ignore items or even favour type-resist berries on paper.
I'd just like to point out that, of the stated abilities, all of them have their viability heavily impacted by the item a pokemon's running either positively or negatively

In general, I find the statement of "item agnostic abilities" to be quite misleading as most abilities do in fact benefit from certain items and find other items irrelevant if not outright hindering

a x1.2 STAB, unaffected by Kock-Off or Trick item is in fact either appreciated or unwanted by most abilities and we should take that into consideration
 
I'd just like to point out that, of the stated abilities, all of them have their viability heavily impacted by the item a pokemon's running either positively or negatively

In general, I find the statement of "item agnostic abilities" to be quite misleading as most abilities do in fact benefit from certain items and find other items irrelevant if not outright hindering

a x1.2 STAB, unaffected by Kock-Off or Trick item is in fact either appreciated or unwanted by most abilities and we should take that into consideration
Are you sure Weak Armor, Steam Engine, Water Compaction, and Rattled would indeed have their viability heavily impacted by the item their Pokemon runs, especially if the Pokemon is not weak to the type(s) that activate(s) most of them? Would Weak Armor really start plunging in viability if we put Choice Band on the mon instead of Leftovers, for instance?

In fact, assigning Steam Engine to 30i makes increasing amounts of sense to me. The form with boosted offences thanks to their item is slightly more likely to appreciate the speed boost.

I don't think a Griseous Orb-like item that cannot be Knock Offed or Tricked is in fact appreciated by most abilities so much that a mon with that ability would use the item given the chance. Giratina in Balanced Hackmons virtually exclusively uses defensive sets and defensive abilities (e.g. Fur Coat, Prankster thanks to Haze, Poison Heal). While indeed Giratina often uses Griseous Orb to avoid being Tricked, Safety Goggles is also dirt common in order to dodge Spore, and Darkinium Z was common in Gen 7 in combination with Parting Shot to deliver a 1-time full heal to a switched-in follow-up. (Toxic Orb on Poison Heal Giratina is mandatory.) Also note that the damage boost that Griseous Orb provides to Spectral Thief and Core Enforcer is not Giratina's primary concern.

There are several abilities that do not want the Griseous Orb-like item at all or think it redundant, like Poison Heal, Sticky Hold, Unburden, and Harvest. But they are far outnumbered by the abilities that do not care about the item (examples I haven't previously mentioned: Aroma Veil, Heatproof, Wonder Skin, Grassy Pelt).
 
Are you sure Weak Armor, Steam Engine, Water Compaction, and Rattled would indeed have their viability heavily impacted by the item their Pokemon runs, especially if the Pokemon is not weak to the type(s) that activate(s) most of them? Would Weak Armor really start plunging in viability if we put Choice Band on the mon instead of Leftovers, for instance?

In fact, assigning Steam Engine to 30i makes increasing amounts of sense to me. The form with boosted offences thanks to their item is slightly more likely to appreciate the speed boost.

I don't think a Griseous Orb-like item that cannot be Knock Offed or Tricked is in fact appreciated by most abilities so much that a mon with that ability would use the item given the chance. Giratina in Balanced Hackmons virtually exclusively uses defensive sets and defensive abilities (e.g. Fur Coat, Prankster thanks to Haze, Poison Heal). While indeed Giratina often uses Griseous Orb to avoid being Tricked, Safety Goggles is also dirt common in order to dodge Spore, and Darkinium Z was common in Gen 7 in combination with Parting Shot to deliver a 1-time full heal to a switched-in follow-up. (Toxic Orb on Poison Heal Giratina is mandatory.) Also note that the damage boost that Griseous Orb provides to Spectral Thief and Core Enforcer is not Giratina's primary concern.

There are several abilities that do not want the Griseous Orb-like item at all or think it redundant, like Poison Heal, Sticky Hold, Unburden, and Harvest. But they are far outnumbered by the abilities that do not care about the item (examples I haven't previously mentioned: Aroma Veil, Heatproof, Wonder Skin, Grassy Pelt).
The fact that a lot of abilities would not appreciate 30i's item is my main point that's why I advocate to do 30i's ability first so to minimize its ability clashing too much with its item, which in turn would have to compensate for later complicating the whole process

I made a post addressing each ability you mentioned and how it would either be helped or hindered by 30i's item before, but the mods deleted it for talking too much about abilities at this state of the process
suffice to say, I found your statement about those abilities not caring about the item false for all of them (as you just did regarding Steam Engine), as for the abilities you just mentioned finding the item irrelevant, I can already see two that do in fact care quite a bit about what item their mon is running

once again most abilities do in fact benefit from certain items and find other items irrelevant if not outright hindering, the item matters a lot for most abilities, that is the point of going 30i ability => role discussion => typing => 30b ability
 
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Wulfanator

Clefable's wish came true!
is a Pre-Contributor
Given that people are starting to push into ability conversations, it is time to move on.

On the topic of stage ordering, the thread looked split on picking an ability and assigning it to a form after. I discussed our options with the TLT and the team unanimously agreed that primary ability 1 > assign ability to form and define role > typing > primary ability 2 is the best course of action.
The main problem with deciding both abilities first was it could negatively impact our typing discussion. In the event we have mismatched abilities, we are forced to compromise on a typing that provides less synergy with either form. The structure selected should guarantee one form maximizes its potential while also giving us enough information to find a second primary ability that complements the same typing. Another benefit of this approach is that it lessens the importance of 30i’s item in the ability conversation. This concept would benefit from prioritizing an interesting ability to explore instead of trying to complement a small element of one mon. We can still pursue item-ability synergy if we so choose, but it is no longer forcing itself on the conversation.

Conclusions from this concept assessment:
  • We want the ability to be a leading element of CAP 30’s functionality while avoiding optimization that removes healthy counterplay.
  • Each form will explore a different ability.
  • The project will follow the order: Primary Ability 1 > Assign Ability to Form and Define Role > Typing > Primary Ability 2
With that, I will hand the project over to Tadasuke for the first Primary Ability Stage.
 
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