CAP 30 - Part 4 - Typing Discussion

[spoo]

Jumping in to update:

So, I'm aiming to have a slate of 7ish types (give or take 1). Here is a list of how many times each typing has been submitted so far after ~1.5 days, hopefully I didn't miscount anything:

fighting: 6
steel: 6
fairy: 6
fire: 4
grass/poison: 3
psychic/bug/flying/dark/electric/water: 2
ice/normal: 1

As you can see, submissions are fairly skewed towards a couple specific types, which is pretty understandable because TL has great synergy with them. Feedback on these typings is also a little skewed; the fighting types and steel types are seeing a bunch of feedback while the rest aren't getting toooo much love.

My goal at the end of this stage is to present a balance slate which is representative of the typings that the community seems to really like, while at the same time avoiding over-representing any specific typings. Given there are only 7 slots, I can 100% guarantee that no typing will take up more than three slots on the slate, and like 80% guarantee no more than two. What I'm getting at is - I really encourage people to compare and contrast typings within each broad category (eg, which of the steel types is the best/worst and why) and to give your feedback on typings which might not be as obviously popular/good, or even a typing that you think has many negatives that are flying under the radar. This will help me a lot in building an accurate slate. One of the main things previously discussed was also that TL gives a ton of room for basically any type combo; fighting/steel/fairy obviously benefit in some of the most pronounced ways, but typings like flying, normal, and water are also cool for a whole host of reasons and could definitely see more exploration (not trying to push anything here, just giving some examples).

Some stuff you can talk about while giving feedback or in submitting your own types:
Which guaranteed defensive switch-ins does this typing have over another and why is that preferred? What about offensive switch-ins - does this typing imply something more offensively polarizing (eg Kyurem, hard to get in but if it clicks the right move you die) or does it occupy the other end of the spectrum? Does this type get any STAB on utility-based moves like scald/plume? Do you favor more offensive types like fighting, defensive ones like steel, or maybe more balanced ones like fire - and why? Does this typing allow for freedom of ability choices for our second forme or could it potentially restrict us? Just brainstorming, obviously feel free to take whatever approach feels most natural to you when giving feedback/writing a sub.

Last small item of interest to go over:
It's been roughly like 36hrs since opening subs and I aim to close them within 36-48 more hours, with a pre-slate posted ~24hrs beforehand. I say "aim" because I have been pretty tied up with irl this past week and I expect it to unfortunately continue for the future of this stage as well. Things will hopefully not drag on past that point though, so if you have something you are itching to post about then do it within that timeframe cus I can't guarantee stuff will be open past then.

 

[NitioWO]

I am here to submit Fairy/Dark.

EDIT: oops, just saw spoo's post. Subbing anyway, and will provide feedback on other's subs later.

What are the broad strengths and weaknesses of this typing
Overall, Fairy has always been a very solid, consistent typing, and when paired with Dark, provides resistances to some of the most common moves in the meta. Its weaknesses are types that are not among the most common attacking types in the meta. Immunities to Dragon and Psychic are very nice.

What this typing lacks is high-power STABs, but it does have consistent, spammable options on both physical and special sides in Moonblast, Dark Pulse, Crunch, Darkest Lariat. None of these moves are held back by low accuracy, recoil or stat dropping. It also has nice utility moves in Knock Off, Parting Shot, Spirit Break, and Draining Kiss (maybe even a sneaky Nature's Madness??), along with strong priority in Sucker Punch. We are able to hit a few walls super effectively, but this typing would likely have to rely on a decent stat distribution (and utility moves like Taunt) to force damage, rather than high BP moves and SE hits.


What does this typing broadly offer defensively?
Weaknesses: Fairy, Poison, Steel
Resistances: Dark, Ghost
Immunities: Dragon, Psychic, Prankster

This typing doesn't offer the endless list of resistances like Steel typings do, but it does offer specific resistances to the most common moves in the metagame.

The most obvious is a 4x Dark resist, which makes us pretty much impervious to Knock Off. In addition, this typing is not weak to most of the common coverage moves Knock users carry (Earthquake, Triple Axel, Low Kick/CloseCombat/CircleThrow, Hurricane, U-turn, Plasma Fists, Scald). It does have weaknesses to Clef's Moonblast and Scizor's Bullet Punch though.

This typing also offers a resist to Ghost, which is currently one of the most spammable attacking types in the metagame due to a dearth of resists, as evidenced by Dragapult, Blacephalon and (to a lesser extent) Pajantom. In addition, Dark/Fairy is able to hit back against Ghost mons with reliable STAB, and may not need speed to do so due to the option of a STAB Sucker Punch. This typing might as well have been submitted for the "Duck Fragapult" concept, as it resists both STABs and is not chunked by U-turn, while not being weak to rocks on switch-in.

An immunity to Psychic is utility in itself, due to the ubiquity of Future Sight in the metagame. What Dark/Fairy provides that most Dark types do not, is the neutrality to Fighting and Bug (specifically Uturn), which are two common attacking types used to take advantage of Future Sight. This typing is able to hit back with SE damage against Future Sight setters themselves AND common abusers such as Urshifu, Weavile and... Buzzwole.

The immunity to Dragon is also useful. Garchomp, Kyurem, and the aforementioned Dragapult are the most common users currently. This typing is also not weak to any of the coverage moves these pokemon usually run. Given enough stats, we would be able to switch in to these pokemon safely. If not, we are still able to completely avoid damage on a correct prediction, and force these pokemon out.

Dark/Fairy is not weak to Stealth Rock, which increases the number of times this pokemon is able to switch in and attempt to break or perform its utility tasks. This is useful on a typing without high powered moves, because we're going to need to come in multiple times a game to do our job. I think Rock weaknesses are best left to typings with high power nukes who may not need to switch in as often.

All in all, Dark/Fairy offers answers to the most common and oppressive moves in the meta; it takes nothing from Knock Off and does not take SE damage from most Knock Users, while threatening some out. It resists Ghost while threatening Ghosts out. It is immune to Future Sight and does not take SE damage from FS abusers, and forces common abusers AND common setters out. On paper, it does not compare to typings with lots of resists, but Dark/Fairy offers a specific set of advantages to common meta threats instead of broad defensive resists.

Which important Pokemon can this typing threaten via SE hits?

Super Effective: Dark, Dragon, Fighting, Ghost, Psychic
Neutral: Bug, Electric, Fairy, Fire, Flying, Grass, Ground, Ice, Normal, Poison, Rock, Steel, Water
Resists: None
Immunities: None

In terms of walls, Dark/Fairy is able to threaten Glowking, Slowking, Slowbro, Arghonaut, Mandibuzz, Buzzwole and Tomohawk with super effective damage. Colossoil and Tyranitar might fit in this category too.
In terms of offensive mons, we can threaten SE damage on Dragapult, Weavile, Urshifu, Garchomp, Kyurem, Blacephalon, Aegislash, Dragonite and Hydreigon. Note that most of these are extremely potent offensive threats in the current meta.

We are able to avoid SE damage from all of these offensive mons except Aegislash (and Hydreigon Flash Cannon), threaten them out with an SE hit, and hit the switch-in for consistent neutral damage, or click a utility move like Taunt. We are also able to consistently switch in to and make progress against common walls such as Slowking due to our ability to sit on a Future Sight AND its most common abusers. We do have to be wary around Glowking though. We're able to hit Heatran neutrally with Dark, but that fucker still looks pretty annoying.

We're able to threaten some common Knock Off users with super effective damage too, such as Weavile, Arghonaut and Colossoil, making us even better switch-ins to Knock Off against these mons.


How much does this typing abuse or benefit from tinted lens?
On the Dark side, Weavile, Clefable, Urshifu, Arghonaut, Jumbao, the Tapus, Buzzwole, Colossoil and Tyranitar all take neutral damage instead of resisted damage. On the Fairy side, Glowking, Corviknight, Scizor, Toxapex, Melmetal, Ferrothorn, Equilibra, Magnezone, Blacephalon, Victini, Volcarona, Cawmodore, Aegislash, and Excadrill all become easier to hit.
Especially with utility moves like Knock Off, Draining Kiss and Spirit Break on the table, we will be able to force damage on more pokemon while performing our utility role simultaneously. Consistent spammable moves like Moonblast and Crunch become much harder to switch in to. Crunch especially has parallels with Dragapult's and Blacephalon's Shadow Ball due to its chance to drop defense.
However, none of these moves are super high-power, so will likely be easier to balance than other moves. These high power options often also come with recoil, stat drops or low accuracy, which we avoid entirely.


Are there any other cool side effects this typing has, such as immunity to status, resistance to hazards, or otherwise?
This typing leans heavily into a 4x resistance to Knock Off and also provides neutrality to Rock. However, it does not offer immunity to any status conditions (unless the move is clicked by a Prankster user).

Dark/Fairy does keep the options for 30b wide open due to its neutrality to Rock, consistent STAB options on both physical and special sides, and an array of utility moves that are used by pokemon in a variety of roles. Dark/Fairy is also not a horrible STAB combination on its own, so the non-Tinted Lens 30b will not be stuck with garbage STABs, which lessens the pressure on the coverage conversation.

Overall, Dark/Fairy is a pretty balanced type combo. It's not obscene defensively with 10+ resists, and offensively it doesn't hit like 5+ types SE. However, it has specific defensive and offensive merits, and overall is a solid, reliable, consistent typing. I think going with a balanced typing now will allow us to spend more of our power budget in Ability 2, stats or movepool.

 

[Brambane]

Submitting Fire/Psychic

What are the broad strengths and weaknesses of this typing?

This typing does nothing half-assed. It goes all out in terms of offenses presence, defensive utility, and clearly defined weaknesses. As a Tinted Lens combination, these STABs are unresisted. The STAB options for both types are varied in function, power, and utility on both ends of the attacking spectrum. Defensively, the typing boasts a formidable seven resistances, including crucial resistances to Fairy, Grass, Ice, Psychic, and Fire in the current metagame. The trade off is is 5 extremely common weaknesses, including vulnerability to Stealth Rock. These weaknesses are a critical component for this typing's identity: its weaknesses balance the fantastic coverage and breaking potential of this STAB combination.

What does this typing broadly offer defensively?

Fire/Psychic is a deceptively great defensive typing. First and foremost, it absolutely shits on Jumbao, which is debatably the best CAP in the current metagame. It also resists Tapu Lele's STAB combination while simultaneously benefitting from Psychic Terrain, yoinking that match-up in its favor. It's odd array of resists can catch specific moves from a wide variety of offensive threats, including Scizor, Urshifu, Tapu Bulu, Weavile, Melmetal, and more. However, most of these Pokemon offer coverages that can hit Fire/Psychic, which I consider an important point in the typing's favor: considering how strong it is offensively with Tinted Lens, having some risk when hard-switching in on something you want to threaten keeps that offensive prowess in check. As a small defensive perk, the typing also resists both Future Sight and Doom Desire. The seven resists are a good enough backbone for the typing's defensive potential for 30b, if it chooses to go that direction.

The typing is weak to some very common coverage. The unremovable item reducing Knock Off damage does help with the Dark-type weakness immensely. The Stealth Rock and Spikes vulnerability is another facet for keeping the type in check; for a our design process, the fewer defensive answers to a Pokemon,, the harder it should be able to bring in. By further limiting its ability to come in safely throughout a match, entry hazards are a tool for the player to use against CAP30i to keep it from fracturing their team's defensive backbone from beyond repair.

Which important Pokemon can this typing threaten via SE hits?

The biggest one is 100% The Pex, since breaking Regenerator walls generally means trapping, finding a way to make the damage stick, or giving it "all my friends are dead :(" syndrome. Considering that the first option is not an established role and kind of polljumpy and the last one isn't really something we can build a single Pokemon around, that means making sure we do enough damage to keep pressure on Toxapex is a strong metric us succeeding as a wallbreaker. In the case of this typing, that is easily achieved through the Psychic STAB. The Psychic STAB also squeezes the ink outta Arghonaut, deflates Buzzwole, and knocks Tomohawk even further down the VR ranking where it BELONGS.

Fire STAB roasts Corviknight, Ferrothorn, Scizor, Melmetal, Tapu Bulu, Jumbao, and Skarmory. If you consider the secondary burn chance of some Fire STAB (mostly Lava Plume) you could potential "break" even more threats by eliminating Leftovers.

How much does this typing abuse or benefit from tinted lens?

Psychic has a wide variety of potential STAB options that add extra utility or allow us to hit different threats in the metagame, making it an even stronger Tinted Lens typing. These include: Psychic, Psyshock, Stored Power, Future Sight, Psychic Fangs, Expanding Force, and an array of signature moves. Fire has some utility STAB options, but is mostly about having both strong and reliable offensive breaking options.

Are there any other cool side effects this typing has, such as immunity to status, resistance to hazards, or otherwise?

We are immune to burns, which is cool.

Design Space for 30b

While I don't consider it the highest importance, I do take the framework into consideration when looking at our potential typing. As a whole, most typing combos have ample design space for CAP30b, but some are definitely better than others. I think the combination of weaknesses, resists, and offensive presence that Fire/Psychic possesses makes it a great typing for 30b. It has enough defensive utility to flex into a defensive role with the help of a solid ability, while it only needs a bit of coverage to fit into an offensive role as well. Potential of the more unique STAB options like Future Sight, Stored Power, Psychic Fangs, and Mystical Fire provide ample design space on their own.

 

[Yu_IOTJ]

Just thought I'd take this moment to talk about some of the types that have interested me the most. Uh First one needs no introduction,

Ice/Fighting is the most blatantly offensive and super effective focused option submitted here and I love it. It's such a cool type. It breaks through just about everything with its coverage, though it may have trouble with the steel birds depending on the stats. It also gets a great array of STAB options, Triple Axel is a great move and so is close combat. It's not bad on the special side either, on hail it can run a great Blizzard and Focus blast combo, and freeze dry gives it more super effective coverage, or it can simply run the tried and true ice beam and aura sphere if you don't like missing. It's my favorite here.

Fire/Fairy Is a very offensively and defensively satisfying combo. It has a lot of powerful resists to common attacks, and the combo threatens a lot in return not named Heatran. A big value that fire brings as one of the dual types is breaking through the Steel/Flying birds, which I think is one of the more important things to consider. This typing also walls out Weavile, and Jumbao, some of the best CAP threats right now.

Fire/Psychic works similarly, but trades defensive utility for a more offensive dual type in psychic, which has a lot more options for STAB that barring Draining Kiss and Moonblast are quite a bit more interesting options to bring to the table. It does not take on Dark Types like Weavile as confidently as Fire/Fairy, which would be the main drawback and comparison between the two. Overall, I like the two Red and Pink types.

Electric/Steel is another lovely typing. It's one of the typings with the most numerous resists among the submissions. However it does have some glaring weaknesses for some of the most common and powerful attacking types; Fire, Fighting, and Ground. Especially salient for that x4 ground weakness. The typing still works fine in its own right. Barring Cawmodore, it takes on the Steel birds well, and very handily takes on the water types of the tier, Pex and Argh. The typing is also a very fine Tapu answer, as all besides Fini with water stab are thwarted by its resists.

Fighting/Poison is another cool as heck typing. Actually this goes for Fighting/Steel too, both are fighting types that dumpster fairy types. Though it is clear that among both of them for this role, Fighting/Steel is the more defensively useful typing. I do like Fighting/Poison's offensive presence a bit more though, having access to moves that can poison the target is a big boon, Gunk Shot is a powerful option especially with Lens alongside Fighting coverage. For me it's hard to decide between the two which one I'd pick.

I like Fairy/Water a lot actually. It has a lot of potential here for wallbreaking as seen previously by Primarina. It's a synergistic type already, and being able to break past poison steels and grasses with the combo is real nice, I'll take any water that can cut past Ferrothorn.

 

[quziel]

Figure that Tinted Lens is gonna pull a ton of the weight offensively, so submitting a few typings that I always look at the tier and go "man I wish those existed" cause I figure defensive stuff is gonna be very important.

Grass / Poison:

So this typing is very defensively inclined, allowing you to compress a check to every non-lele fairy type into one slot, which is a very potent reason to put it on a lot of teams (its even immune to tricky barb clef). You further compress a check to Rapidshifu, Zeraora, Rillaboom, Tapu Bulu, and Kartana, which is legitimately just a bit insane. This typing ensures that CAP 30 would instantly be able to find a slot on a team thanks to just having a load of resists, albeit while being a grass type that loses to our ground types.

That said, this typing is sorta rubbish offensively, with its main SE hits being against the aforementioned Fairy, Grass, and Water types. Luckily we do have Tinted Lens to help us on that front. This means that the stab combo is resisted by Heatran, Corviknight, and Skarmory after Tinted Lens, which, while being fairly prominent mons, are also mons that are infamously weak to utility moves (Heatran is beyond item dependent, Corv gets worn down very quick after status).

Grass has a number of very high utility attacks, with the omnipresent Giga Drain being especially useful for slot compression, while every single Poison-type stab has built in utility thanks to the Poison Chance. This typing ensures that we will be able to bring this mon in often, makes excellent use of Tinted Lens taking a 3/10 stab combo to 7/10 offensively, and definitely leaves enough space for the other forme due to the general lack of defensive Grasses atm (barring Ferrothorn).

Grass / Flying:

I'd like to preface this by saying that Grass/Flying is not a great typing overall, and that's entirely fine given that we gotta balance out Tinted Lens somehow. Lets begin with this typing's merits defensively, which allow it to be a rare RapidShifu answer (for an offensively inclined typing), thanks to the unknockable orb, its a near perfect answer to Ground type Knock Off users (Lando and Colo), it can easily switch into and punish Slowking and Slowbro (on the rise again), as well as the common Tapu Fini and Rillaboom.

This typing is also actually fairly solid offensively. Grass-typing with Tinted Lens isn't great, but Flying is where this typing shines. Flying becomes legitimately amazing with Tinted Lens, hitting every single mon barring Magnezone for neutral damage, as well as hitting stuff like Argh, Rilla,and Shifu for great SE damage. Flying is an amazing partner for the utility that grass moves can provide here, and really serves as the offensive powerhouse to push Grass up to par.

Overall I like this typing as a fairly weak option with some very strong upsides, a clearly defined list of mons it can very easily come in on, and several very strong weaknesses to balance it out. There's definitely room for the other forme here too given that its defensive typing does yield some very cool winning matchups.

Dark / Flying:

This is the strongest typing that I am going to be submitting today. Defensively it offers a fairly unique set of resists (next to mandi), potentially letting it check several meta powerhouses such as Knock Off Landorus-Therian, Dragapult, Colossoil, and Grass-Types such as Rillaboom. Offensively these typings are both very difficult to resist even before Tinted Lens, and afterwards they become beyond spammable, perhaps too spammable. That said, it also brings a Stealth Rock weakness, which is incredibly important balancing tool given the strengths we inherit with our offensive typing, ease of switching in, and Tinted Lens. This allows us to provide a ton of space for a secondary forme, which is a fairly important consideration. It should be noted that Dark-typing is also a utility powerhouse, offering a ton of moves that compress damage and utility together.

Dragapult, Colossoil, Landorus-Therian, Rillaboom, Kartana, and Hippowdon are all mons that we can reasonably expect to give us fairly free switchins, we can hit a truly massive number of mons for SE damage, this typing really has it all. I don't have much else to say, this is a very strong typing, and one we absolutely should consider as a result.

Fire / Normal:

This is perhaps the most offensively inclined of the typings that I'm submitting today, and thanks to Fire this typing is able to force a very large number of switches using its STAB. Ferrothorn, Corviknight, Equilibra, Rillaboom, Weavile all need to immediately fear our STAB and swap out or just die. Normal contributes here by providing a typing blessed with many strong attacks to nail the typical fire resists of the tier, potentially letting us eventually chip Heatran, Slowbro, and Hydreigon down. Fire and Normal are two typings where you have just a boatload of potential utility moves across both (Lava Plume, Mystical Fire, Tri Attack, Body Slam, etc). That said this typing notably does not have the means to hit the "generic walls" on either side SE (Blissey, Glowking, Physdef Lando, Hippo) barring Skarmory.

Defensively this typing also has the potential to shine. While the Item Forme will have to struggle with Stealth Rock, I view that as an important balancing factor for a typing that is blessed offensively as this one is. This typing allows us to switch into and blank Ghost moves, which is going to instantly give us a spot on a lot of teams (see Weavile doing the same), and to a lesser extent can allow us to switch into Fairy, Grass, and Fire-type moves, even if the matchup against those mons is a bit iffier.

There is also a lot of room for the secondary forme specifically because of how valuable the typing can be defensively and the inability of our Item Forme to hold Heavy Duty Boots. Due to the offensive prowess of this typing when combined with Tinted Lens, the useful defensive typing, and the Stealth Rock weakness, I believe this typing gives us a very wide design space for both the Item and Base forme.

Commentary:

Fire / Psychic:

This typing offers a great mix of great defensive attributes, acting as an excellent switch-in to many of the tier's fairy types, great offensive coverage, featuring SE hits on a lot of very prominent walls, and has a SR weakness, which I still view to be a great balancing tool for a typing that is this competent offensively. Overall I very much like this typing. This typing also potentially opens up the cool interaction of "tank Weav's knock and then KO it" which I love.

Ice / Fighting:

This is an incredibly offensively inclined typing, and that's great, but it still retains a number of fairly useful defensive switchins, being a near full counter to Weavile, taking on the rest of the tier's Ice types fairly well, and with good play could let us switch into and threaten out Lando-T and Colossoil. This typing definitely has its weaknesses thanks to a number of fairly common type-weaknesses, but I think its fairly solid, uses Tl to hit a fair few more mons than it otherwise could, and probably has room for a secondary forme.

Steel / Bug:

This is obviously a very strong typing, being nearly 10/10 defensively, and making good use of Tinted Lens to boost its otherwise very lackluster stabs up to par. That said, I do worry about finding enough design space for two new Steel/Bugs in the meta given how prominent Scizor is atm without either outclassing or being outclassed by it. I think its definitely possible, but due to this consideration other typings definitely are a tad higher on my preference list.

 

[Reviloja753]

Going to echo support for Grass / Poison. I feel that as a defensive type combination it is a type combination that heavily takes advantage of several prominent attacking types and Pokémon to generate a lot of easy switch-ins. As a bonus, due to being a Poison-type, it’s a wallbreaker that is immune to Toxic, which itself is a very good reason to put it on teams. What’s more, Poison and especially Grass have a wide variety of attacks with secondary effects that can immediately help us put pressure and even generate some switches like Sludge Bomb, Poison Jab, Giga Drain, Horn Leech, Trop Kick, and others. Lastly, while it is offensively walled by a number of Steel-type Pokémon, this in my opinion only serves to give us more wiggle room for future stages to enhance CAP30 and overall balance CAP30i. In fact, having Pokémon that can absorb one of our STABs means that players will be encouraged to think about their plays more, as opposed to simply clicking the same attack every turn, which Tinted Lens can most certainly encourage on more offensively leaning type combinations. Overall, I feel that the defensive role compression combined with its wide movepool choices help create a Pokémon that can both truly capitalize on Tinted Lens and easily fulfill its role as a utility wallbreaker, especially considering that, as Quziel pointed out, a lot of what switches in on our moves is rather susceptible to being worn down. Even if those Pokémon beat us, having at least a few Pokémon that can safely switch in on us is a rather good idea, lest we pick an offensive type combination so fantastic with Tinted Lens that we need to arbitrarily restrict 30i everywhere else.

I would also like to briefly discuss Fire / Psychic as another type combination I support. It has similar benefits to other Fire-type combos, with a wide utility attack pool and relevant Pokémon to capitalize on for switch-ins (admittedly less so due to being weak to Knock Off, but even then the 2/3 damage reduction is huge), but with the added wrinkle of having an immunity in Dark. As mentioned before, having one of our STABs be something able to be absorbed entirely makes us think more about what we are clicking, which I believe will be an important part in not having 30i run an all-out attacker set with no regards for utility. Overall, this is yet another Fire-type combination that takes advantage of its movepool options with an added layer of strategy attached to it which makes me like it just about as much as Fire/Fairy and Fire/Fighting.

 

[Tommaniacal]

Submitting Electric / Fighting

What are the broad strengths and weaknesses of this typing?

Electric / Fighting is very strong Offensively. Electric hits many prevalent Water and Flying types, while Fighting's sheer amount of Super Effective hits allows for it to hit most of the tier for at least neutral damage.

Both typings have no effect against another, with Electric not affecting Ground and Fighting not effecting Ghost. This can be considered a weakness, though it can also be used as a balancing measure to keep Tinted Lens in check.

What does this typing broadly offer defensively?

While being a mostly offense-oriented typing, Electric / Fighting offers a strangely high amount of defensive utility. Resisting U-Turn, Knock Off, and Stealth Rock are 3 important examples. It can also shrug off Electric type attacks from those in the tier like Tapu Koko and Zeraora. It's also only weak to 3 types in Ground, Fairy, and Psychic.

Which important Pokemon can this typing threaten via SE hits?

There are many OU staples this typing threatens.
Electric hits prevelant Water-Types like Toxapex, Tapu Fini, Arghonaut, Slowking, Urshifu-Rapid, as well as Flying-Types like Corviknight, Tornadus, Skarmory, Moltres-Galar, and Tomohawk.

Fighting hits Steel-types like Melmetal, Ferrothorn, Kartana, Magnezone, and Equilibra, Dark-Types like Weavile, Colossoil, Hydreigon, and Tyranitar, and other various threats like Kyurem.

How much does this typing abuse or benefit from tinted lens?

Electric and Fighting are both resisted by common types within the tier and are thus benefited greatly from Tinted Lens. Some examples are Fighting being resisted by Toxapex, Tornadus, Clefable, Landorus-Therian, Jumbao, Tapu Fini, Zapdos, Tapu Koko, Buzzwole, and Tomohawk.

Electric being resisted by Dragapult, Zeraora, Jumbao, Tapu Koko, Astrolotl, Kyurem, Rillaboom, Ferrothorn, Kartana, Magnezone, and Hydreigon can also be mitigated by Tinted Lens.

Are there any other cool side effects this typing has, such as immunity to status, resistance to hazards, or otherwise?

As previously mentioned, Electric / Fighting resists the competitive staples of U-Turn, Knock Off, and Stealth Rock. It also resists Volt Switch and is immune to Thunder Wave.

An interesting interaction of the type is its ability to have a Pokemon resist one of its stabs, but be weak to another. This allows for opposing pokemon to attempt to switch on a resisted hit, take more due to Tinted Lens, and then be threated by the other STAB type. Some examples are Ferrothorn and Kyurem resisting Electric but being weak to Fighting, as well as Toxapex and most Flying-Types resisting Fighting but being weak to Electric.

 

[Lectrys]

I'd like to submit Water/Steel.

• What are the broad strengths and weaknesses of this typing?
  • Water/Steel is a good defensive typing, with 10 resists - 2 of them 4x resists - and an immunity. Water/Steel can also take advantage of Water's reasonable super-effective and neutral coverage (super-effective against 3 types; resisted by 3 types) and Steel's ability to hit Fairy-types super-effectively. Water/Steel also gets to spam STAB Scald and burn a fair few mons with attacks, along with having access to the nuke Hydro Pump and a fair few spammable, reasonably powerful attacks (Iron Head, Surf, Meteor Mash, Flash Cannon, Liquidation, Waterfall, Gyro Ball). Water/Steel even gets STAB priority with Bullet Punch and Water Shuriken along with the STAB pivot move Flip Turn! Water/Steel has some inconvenient weaknesses in Ground, Fighting, and Electric, so it can be hard to switch in at times, and it really does not like taking a Volt Switch. Water/Steel also can have trouble behaving like a bulky Water at times, as it no longer has a Fire resist. Water/Steel also has mediocre super-effective coverage, hitting only 5 types super-effectively.
• What does this typing broadly offer defensively?
  • With Water/Steel, we end up with a Steel-type that's neutral to Fire - so it forces out the Earth Power from Heatran and can stand up to Astrolotl somewhat better - and a Water-type that's neutral to Grass - so we can stand up to Rillaboom, Jumbao, Tapu Bulu, and Ferrothorn better. Water/Steel is immune to Poison and 4x resists Ice and Steel. Water/Steel's other resists are Normal, Rock, Bug, Psychic, Dragon, Fairy, Flying, and Water, so it can eat U-turns all day, stand up to bulky Waters, and tank Dragon-, Psychic-, and Fairy-types for the most part (including their Fire coverage moves).
• Which important Pokemon can this typing threaten via SE hits?
  • Water/Steel is the rare Steel-type that can tank Heatran's STAB and hit it back super-effectively, along with scare off Landorus-T with a super-effective (Water) attack. Other prominent mons we hit super-effectively include Clefable, Hippowdon, Jumbao, Equilibra, Excadrill, Colossoil, Victini, Volcarona, Kyurem, Tapu Lele, Tapu Bulu, Tyranitar, and Grimmsnarl.
• How much does this typing abuse or benefit from tinted lens?
  • Water/Steel abuses Tinted Lens fairly well as a combined offensive typing. Both Water and Steel are resisted by Water normally, and Tinted Lens patches that up. Since the only type that resists both Water and Steel is Water, the only mons who still resist Water/Steel after Tinted Lens have abilities that make them immune to Water (e.g. Gastrodon, Mollux, Jellicent, Seismitoad). With Tinted Lens, Water can now hit Grass, Dragon, and Water neutrally, while Steel can chop through its several resists (such as Steel, Fire, and Water).
• Are there any other cool side effects this typing has, such as immunity to status, resistance to hazards, or otherwise?
  • Water/Steel grants an immunity to poison (including Toxic) and a resistance to Stealth Rock. Water/Steel's access to Tinted Lens STAB Scald looks particularly good at making progress throughout a game.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I also have some comments about certain already submitted typings:

• Ice/Fighting
  • Ice/Fighting already gets great neutral and super-effective coverage (remember how good Ice/Fighting coverage was in previous generations?). While finally hitting Toxapex, the Kantonian Slowtwins, Tapu Fini, Victini, and Aegislash (and Kitsunoh, I guess) neutrally with Tinted Lens STAB is great, CAP 30i's unerring ability to switch moves makes me think that we'll want to switch to a non-Tinted Lens neutral or super-effective attack after hitting a mon with a Tinted Lens-boosted move, so I don't think any typing with great neutral coverage will actually use the Tinted Lens boost all that often, and I think any such typing is significantly more likely to appreciate a boosting ability that doesn't just work on resisted hits (e.g. Adaptability, Iron Fist, Strong Jaw). As a result, I really do not like Ice/Fighting as an option.
• Bug/Steel
  • This is quite possibly my favourite already submitted typing. Like my submitted typing, both offensive types are resisted by at least one of the same type (Steel and Fire in this case). Bug/Steel also has pretty good resists (even if mildly compromised in some areas like a Stealth Rock neutrality). Its 4x Fire weakness is huge but still manageable.
• Normal/Fairy
  • This is one of my favourite already submitted typings. Normal brings nuke regular attacks (Boomburst, Double-edge, Head Charge) and priority (Extreme Speed) to complement Fairy's lack of them. Both Normal and Fairy are resisted by Steel, so Tinted Lens should boost moves somewhat often. This defensive typing is fairly convenient against Dragapult in particular, and Fairy is already quite a good defensive type by itself.
• Poison/Flying
  • This is yet another one of my favourite already submitted typings. Both Poison and Flying are resisted or worse by Steel and Rock, so Tinted Lens should boost moves fairly often. It's defensively no slouch despite its weakness to Stealth Rock - it even has multiple 4x resists - and Flying even grants this Poison-type immunity to Ground, which it would be otherwise weak to.

 

[MrDollSteak]

Since typing's have been out for a few days and there's a lot of submissions, I thought I'd go through and discuss some of the other ones that I like and think would work reasonably well for this project. I'll discuss them in order of submission so as to not show off too much bias.

Fighting/Psychic

I think that this is one of the more interesting Fighting type pairings, and does a lot for the Psychic type too. While the typing in my opinion isn't the most synergistic in regards to making use of Tinted Lens' capacity to neutralise not-very effective hits, with Psychic and Fighting STABs resistances often being the other's Super Effective coverage, for example Psychic hitting Poison super effectively, and Fighting hitting poison not very effectively, Tinted Lens provides a lot of redundancy that eases prediction to a large degree. The defensive utility while not amazing, is also interesting enough to work with our items in terms of having a Stealth Rock resistance and a Knock Off neutrality.

Water/Grass

This is a very interesting type that offers a lot of interesting synergy with Tinted Lens, being able to power through its main set of shared resists in Grass-types and Dragon-types neutrally without needing to rely on Ice coverage. Both types also offer a wide range of interesting utility moves that could encourage us to think outside of the box and lean more into the utility side of our wallbreaking potential. The average defensive potential of this Pokemon also I think can act as a meaningful balancing tool, without us being too hamstrung with a Stealth Rock and Knock Off neutrality.

Poison/Flying

One of the most interesting typing combinations on offer at the moment I believe, and one that really leans into requiring Tinted Lens to fulfil its job with both Poison and Flying being quite interesting offensive types in terms of their super effective coverage but let down by major resistances (or in the case of Poison an immunity) to the ubiquitous Steel types. The defensive potential on this typing is insane which is also highly interesting, but is balanced out by a minor Stealth Rock weakness. Another benefit is that I think this typing offers a lot of different avenues for 30b as well.

Ice/Fighting

Without a doubt one of the craziest typings on here, and one that I think is a little bit hard to evaluate in a vacuum. I think it offers us a really interesting approach, by just going insanely hard on the offensive front. With Ice and Fighting already having excellent Super-effective coverage, the invalidation of the only common hypothetical switchins in Toxapex, Slowbro and Slowking could be really potent. That said, I think the absolutely horrible defenses offered by the typing can ensure that it doesn't end up too ridiculous. It's only positives on this front are that it doesn't have a Stealth Rock weakness and can technically absorb Knocks too. My biggest concern with the typing is primarily in regards to 30b with Ice being quite one dimensional making it hard to think about how it could be differentiated from 30i so its not directly outclassed.

Some other options that I think are workable but less interesting for various reasons are Bug/Steel, Fire/Fairy and Fire/Psychic. In the case of the former I think it's insane defensive potential is a positive for 30b and offers us a few paths to go down, but I think it is a typing that's already fairly well explored with a few different viable examples of Bug/Steels across different metagames that fulfil different roles. In the case of both Fire/Fairy and Fire/Psychic, we receive some very powerful attacks that are boosted but are fairly outclassed offensively by some of the other options discussed, specifically Fighting/Psychic, and have some quite crippling defensive weaknesses to Rocks, and in the case of Fire/Psychic, Dark type attacks.

 

[Da Pizza Man]

Might as well through my hat into the ring because why the hell not.

Submitting Bug/Electric

What are the broad strengths and weaknesses of this typing?

In terms of strengths, Bug/Electric is actually surprisingly strong on the offensive side. Electric is able to hit a lot of the defensive threats in the meta-game, while Bug hits basically all of the common switch-ins to common Electric-Type attacks for at least neutral damage when taking into account Tinted Lens. The typing also offers a good amount of utility options as well, namely access to two different pivoting moves and a couple of interesting options offered by Bug as well. Bug/Electric is also surprisingly decent on the defensive side, with us having some pretty cool resistances to types such as Electric, Fighting, and Grass.

Some weaknesses I would say are that, first of all, we are Stealth Rock weak, and without the ability to hold Heavy-Duty Boots is going to wear us down pretty quickly over time. The other main thing I think that is somewhat holding this typing down is that when it comes to determining if we want to go Physical or Special, these two types sort of go against each other. Bug is generally more suited to go physical, having access to stuff like Megahorn and a more powerful U-Turn if we choose that route, while on the flip side Electric typically wants to go Special since that's where it's more powerful attacks come from. That being said, both of these types have the capability to do both so I don't think it's too much of an issue.

What does this typing broadly offer defensively?
Weaknesses: Fire, Rock
Resistances: Electric, Fighting, Grass, Steel

In terms of common offensive Pokemon whose STAB we resist, we have the following:


In terms of Pokemon we can pretty much completely wall through our typing and the pseudo-resistance to Knock Off given to us by the Orb, we pretty much completely wall the following Pokemon:
(w/o Blaze Kick) (w/o Toxic)

This admittedly isn't the most impressive display of resistances, but I still believe that it holds its place within the metagame. Being able to resist both Electric and Grass at the same type while also not having super exploitable weaknesses (Offensive Rock Types basically don't exist right now and Fire-Types outside of aren't super common either) is pretty cool. We also do quite well against a lot of offensive Steel-Types within the metagame (In addition to the aforementioned Pokemon, we also resist most attacks from ). That being said, the weakness to Stealth Rock obviously sucks pretty badly for us, and while it's not something I think prevents us from succeeding, is something we really should be aware of if we choose to go with this typing.


Which important Pokemon can this typing threaten via SE hits?

On the Offensive Side:
via Electric:
via Bug:

On the Defensive Side:
via Electric:
via Bug:

How much does this typing abuse or benefit from tinted lens?

I would say this typing benefits from Tinted Lens quite a bit. The combination of our STAB + Tinted Lens means that we can hit every pokemon in the metagame bar for at least neutral damage. A lot of this has to do with Electric's ability to pick up the slack on and do reliable damage against a good number of Pokemon in the metagame who have a 4x Resistance to Bug, and as such even with Tinted Lens they don't really take much damage from those attacks. In fact, between the 7 Pokemon ranked B or higher on the viablity list and have a 4x resistance to Bug ( ), 3 of them are neutral to Electric and 3 of them are weak to it, with only the aforementioned really being able to resist the combination. Bug boosted by Tinted Lens also gives us the ability to combat Pokemon who can switch into Electric-Type attacks such as and , the former of which having to fear a super-effective attack.


Are there any other cool side effects this typing has, such as immunity to status, resistance to hazards, or otherwise?

We are immune to paralysis for one, and as mentioned earlier we have STAB on both U-Turn and Volt Switch. Bug also has some pretty decent utility moves outside of U-Turn, namely:
- Infestation (Trapping)
- Leech Life (Healing)
- Lunge and Skitter Smack (Weakness our opponent's offenses, making it easier for us to switch into something else)

 

[spoo]

Without further ado, here’s the pre slate.
Ice fighting
Fire fighting
Fire psychic
Steel electric
Steel fairy
Water fairy
Grass poison
Dark flying


The steel types:
Steel/electric
Steel/fairy
=====
These two steel types are generally just fantastic across the board with some of the most useful defensive typings in the game while also having great offensive potential, especially when it comes to abusing TL. My current worry with these two is that there isn’t really a “weaker” option for people who like steel as a typing, but I feel that these two were both pretty popular overall and are clearly some of the strongest and safest options on the whole slate.

The fairy types:
Water/fairy
Steel/fairy
=====
Not gonna reiterate what I said about steel/fairy, but water/fairy is very nice in terms water being great for TL while also offering so much defensive utility. I wanted to fit a water type on the slate for this reason, and I felt that this was a good place to look.

The fighting types:
Ice/fighting
Fire/fighting
=====
Fighting was another type that took the lead pretty early, and for good reason. Fire/fighting is very cool as each typing helps to balance out some of the issues with the other, and also has a lot of very clear opportunities to abuse TL with common bulky waters and fighting resists. Ice/fighting was perhaps a bit more controversial, but I feel it still got enough support to justify slating. Its offensive use is obviously incredible while still having enough value as an ice and dark resist (both pretty useful in this meta) to make me believe we can succeed with it.

The fire types
Fire/fighting
Fire/psychic
=====
Already spoke on fire/fighting, but fire/psychic is a frankly great offensive and defensive typing as we have seen with stuff like Victini being surprisingly useful as a defensive unit when it needs to be. I knew I wanted to fit a psychic type on this slate as it had gotten a good deal of discussion and seemed to look promising for us, and fire/psychic was ultimately what I settled on.

The rest:
Grass/poison
Dark/flying
=====
Grass/poison is an absurd defensive type in this meta right now, and TL helps so much to shore up the ways in which it’s offensively lacking. I wanted to fit a grass type if only cus they get so much damn mileage out of TL and this one barely edged out grass/flying for me, especially as it gives poison types slate representation too. Dark/flying is a deceptively strong offensive type as we’ve seen with stuff like Molt-g taking off on HO, is nothing to laugh at defensively as a ghost resist and ground immunity, and TL really assists both dark and flying in breaking past a host of common walls in the meta atm.


Discussion points:

Slating different/“weaker” steels
Steel electric/fairy are both very, very good, almost to the point where I worry that their typings will overshadow TL in terms of the pokemon’s niche or viability. And again, there isn’t really a less “optimal” option like steel+fighting/bug/psychic (which are all still fantastic) for those who might see the two current slated options as uninteresting design-wise or starting off too strong. Right now I would probably replace steel/electric for something like steel/bug but any kind of feedback on this broader point is appreciated.

Fitting different fairy-types
I saw a lot of value in types like fire, normal, and poison fairy, but I still settled on steel/fairy for reasons described, and water/fairy I feel is very similar to fire/fairy as an incredibly balanced type with fantastic resists and loads of offensive potential for getting the most out of TL. My worry is that water/fairy didn’t see a ton of support from what I could tell + we’ve seen it fairly explored in recent+past OU metas this gen, but I ultimately landed on it over fire/fairy to not over-represent fires and give an opportunity for water to shine as I think it could be a very solid type for us. I was also considering replacing water/fairy with water/grass, and while that would leave only one fairy type on the slate, I wouldn’t even be mad at that as steel/fairy just occupies a lot of the territory we would want to cover anyways.

Potentially fitting other typings
Grass/flying, poison/flying, sorta normal/fairy, and other steel types like bug/steel were the ones I was looking hard at when building out this slate. I ultimately couldn’t find a great place for them, but let me know if these are worth squeezing in somewhere. Also keep in mind that replacing one thing on the slate has a ripple effect on the rest, eg replacing grass/poison with poison/flying leaves me with no grass type representation and likely means that something else will have to be replaced too.

Please let me know what, if anything, should be changed here. You can comment on specific discussion points, raise others that I didn’t cover, or even give your personal ideal slate so I can gauge general consensus. Thanks a lot for the great discussion in this stage so far and I’m looking forwards to the next (hopefully) 24hrs until everything is all said and done.

Edit: also, if you don’t want to comment on the organization of the slate itself, as always feel free to just give feedback on types you like or don’t like. Further discussing specific typings will let us go into voting with informed opinions and stances on each option

 

[shnowshner]

Time to share thoughts after being too slow/unsure to sub anything

Ice/Fighting

Without question the most asinine submission on the slate, I was surprised to see someone was brave enough to actually do this. I had thought about Ice/Fighting when thinking of a strong STAB combo that used Ice: its got beautiful coverage and is the rare Ice type that is not Rocks weak.

My biggest worry is that this just sucks defensively. Ice, Dark, and Bug resists are definitely appreciated, but that's it. You then have six weaknesses to surmount, and they're not good weaknesses. Fighting, Fire, Flying, and Fairy are either popular coverage or used as STAB on popular types. Psychic and Steel are not as common but still have some presense to them. In short, we have no shortage of mons that can threaten us and will have almost no chances to stand our ground. Very do-or-die and I have major concerns for its longevity. If the goal is to balance out the strength of our ability with a double-edged typing, however, there's nothing else that really comes close.

Fire/Fighting

This is a much safer, less flashy version of Ice/Fighting and I'm more partial to it as a result. It faces less weaknesses and provides more defensively, while still being a stellar offensive typing even without considering Tinted Lens.

Fire/Psychic

I really struggle to appreciate a typing weak to Dark and Rock with our Framework. I feel this is just done better by Fire/Fighting, even if it does allow for using some of the more unique Psychic moves and has better MUs versus key defensive mons.

Steel/Electric

Great defensive typing with obvious weaknesses and common nemesis in Electric. Tinted Lens works great here to allow Steel more room offensively so it can compliment the already-solid Electric STAB. A Steel/Electric that doesn't just trap things would be a neat addition to the metagame.

Steel/Fairy

This immediately triggers my Magearna PTSD but I do think we need to look at this beyond the obviously overpowered mons: this is without question one of the best typings in terms of combined offensive/defesnive value, and that's on top of a similarly powerful ability in Tinted Lens. What this essentially means is that our Stats and/or movepool need to balance us out which sounds like a fair trade-off. If Kelfki could be a good mon in Gen 6 Ubers a Steel/Fairy CAP30 can absolutely fit in to the ranks of fellow OU/CAP mons.

Water/Fairy

Solid all-around. I don't have much else to say other than we'd likely compete with Fini, but honestly you could get away with running this type twice it's that good.

Grass/Poison

I support this only because it gives some semblance of a chance to run mono-Grass/Poison some time in the future.

In all seriousness a good Grass/Poison is sourly missing and one that manages to still pose a threat outside of Sleep moves would be a breath of fresh air. This also gives a ton of moves that fit the utility attack category, more than any other type here in my opinion.

Dark/Flying

Dark/Flying is a type that really needs a Pokemon which uses its strengths effectively. Mandibuzz is too passive and item-dependent, Honchkrow is too much of a glass cannon, and Goltres is just a weird design all around (Yveltal doesn't count before you ask). Flying can be an annoying type to build offensive due to having so few good attacking moves, with Brave Bird being the only one I'd consider a truly good move, but its strength as an offensive type is not to be underestimated.


The only change in my opinion (keyword: opinion) is to remove Fire/Psychic, it just doesn't strike me as unique compared to other options and faces a pretty hostile environment with it being noticeably vulnerable to Hazards and weak to a lot of common attacking types. Ice/Fighting is another potential drop but it's such a spicy pick that it would be a shame to not give it a chance unless it loses a lot of support.

 

[Brambane]

Going to respond to the slated types, not going to make this post super long.

A quick note about my perspective of this typing stage. I am looking strictly at each typing's STAB moves and what stat benchmarks we need to reach to crack open common walls in the meta atm like physdef Arghonaut, Toxapex, Glowking, SpD Lando, Corvi, etc. While there are other ways to wallbreak than just hitting things with your STABs, I believe we get more design space from hitting some of the important walls super-effective, since it means we don't need to rely as much on coverage, specific wallbreaking utility (as oppose to other forms of utility), or beefing up our stats. Part of the appeal of TL for our wallbreaker was moveslot compression after all. I value hitting walls SE, especially making damage stick on Regenerator walls, very highly. Frail shit like Weavile should be getting chunked by our TL neutral hits, so I don't value hitting them quite as highly as our defensive targets. I also want there to be ample design space for 30b, but I won't really talk about that much because the slate works well for 30b; we aren't shooting ourselves in the foot with any of them. So I am mostly focusing on 30i for this.

Starting with the typings I think are well-deserved for being slated: Fire/Psychic, Ice/Fighting, Steel/Electric, Grass/Poison, and Dark/Flying. I made a post about Fire/Psychic already so I won't go into it here. Ice/Fighting imo is the strongest of the Fighting-types submitted, to the point it mostly overshadows them. A lot of this admittedly comes from the potential of Freeze-Dry, which while not a guarantee if the type wins, there is no denying that TL Freeze-Dry for hitting Arghonaut and Toxapex helps our wallbreaking endeavors and offers way more room to explore different stat spreads. A built-in Weavile answer is also always appreciated in the current meta, even if the typing overall lacks resists. It leans hard into the offensive side, and I think having at least one typing like that on the slate is good. Steel/Electric is the best typing at striking the balance between offense and defense, with a wonderful set of resistances and fantastic typing for a breaker, hammering Toxapex, Clefable, Tapu Fini, Corviknight, and Arghonaut, as well as pseudo-fatties like Tapu Bulu and Jumbao. Imo Steel/Electric is one of the strongest and safest typings we could go for. Grass/Poison is more utility than wallbreaker, but Sludge Bomb/Poison Jab poisons are great for pressuring the opponent and Grass has probably the most eclectic set of STABs of any type. Defensively it is phenomenal. Dark/Flying is solid. Dark hits the Slow crewe, while Flying slays Arghonaut. Flying in general is just a good TL typing, as is Dark. Dark also has a lot of utility and quirkiness baked into its STABs, which should lead to a fun process. Defensively, it resists Dark and Ghost, so yeah sign me up.

Steel/Fairy is a fucking fantastic type. You are hitting almost the same set of walls SE as Grass/Poison funnily enough (Clefable, Tapu Fini, Arghonaut), but you are trading for a very different set of resists. You lose crucial ones like Water, Electric, and Fighting, yes, but you pick up Dragon, Psychic, Rock, Ice, Flying, and Dark (and ig Bug and Normal...). To me, that is an extremely good deal. Steel/Fairy would slot in so nicely in the current meta that it scares me a little? Like we aren't making just one Steel/Fairy, we are making TWO. I am wringing my hands nervously about this typing's potential, but I think the leadership and community could reign it in. Of the two more "defensive" typings, I like Grass/Poison more because it offers more interesting and unique design space.

Fire/Fighting has grown to be meh to me. Fire is a fantastic typing for us, as is Fighting, but imo the sum is less than its individual parts. While they balance out each other okay and cover a decent set of defensive targets (Corviknight, Scizor, Buzzwole Heatran, Skarmory, Tapu Bulu, and Jumbao), it has some pretty wide openings it can only hit for neutral. In particular, Tapu Fini, Toxapex, the Slow crewe, and Arghonaut. I bring this up because I personally value hitting at least one common Regenerator wall highly as a wallbreaker. Fighting is a really bad neutral type into Toxapex and especially Arghonaut who tend to run physical due to how much attacking power you would need to pressure them with your STAB. Play around in the damage calculator and you will see what I mean. So Fire has to pick up the slack on the special side, considering that special Fighting STAB options are so dubious. The typing doesn't work for me atm, but I am not completely cold to it. The typing DOES have interesting resists and cool potential for 30b, but I am struggling to see where it shines compared to most of the slate.

I straight up don't like Water/Fairy. It's a good af typing and its like okaaay as a wallbreaker, but its going to be really hard to stomp on Tapu Fini's turf and, honestly, I don't want to. Tapu Fini's diversity and customability is a cool part about the current metagame. Some of the other slated types have Pokemon that see use in the meta (Blaziken, Moltres-G, Magnezone, etc) but they are all pretty specific in what they do. Tapu Fini is so good at wearing multiple hats that I am not interested in having to make TWO Pokemon that compete with it from a typing perspective. If we weren't working with our framework then sure, but with the framework in mind I really don't care for it.

There are two typings I think have more interesting design potential than Water/Fairy and maybe even Fire/Fighting:

Poison/Flying hits the fat Fairies and Fighting-types in the metagame, but it has the same benefit that Grass/Poison had with being able to fish for poison to apply pressure. Flying is a generally good TL typing. I am a little leery since it can't hit the Regenerator walls very well, but it makes up for that the same way Grass/Poison and Steel/Fairy do by being a strong defensive typing. It doesn't have the most resists, but high quality ones like Fairy, Grass, Fighting, and a Ground immunity make up for it. It is also immune to Spikes and Toxic, which further adds survivability to the typing despite the SR weakness. A very cool typing for sure, definitely somewhat carried by Poison STAB's inherent 30% "add 12.5% to your damage" chance.

I really like Fire/Normal. Already mentioned that Fire is fantastic for us, but Normal really comes into play with the power and utility of its STABs. The Normal-type STAB design space is almost unrivaled; few things even comes close to the kind of quirky and powerful utility Normal STAB can provide. Defensively its surprisingly okay; Fire has some good resists and a Ghost immunity is well-appreciated. But really this typing is about its offensive potential and the raw power behind some of the Normal-type STAB options.

 

[Zetalz]

I think that Grass/Flying is actually a crazy fun type for us to build for and I think it should be included. If an option needs to be cut to include it I'd throw my hat in for either of the fighting typings, though preferably Fire/Fighting. I think of any of the typing combos we have the Fighting typings feel the most like they're 'going around' Tinted Lens if that makes any sense, being already superb offensive typings that kinda treat Tinted as that little bit extra rather than thriving off of it to the fullest extent like some of the other typings would.

Other than that I think there's something to be said for swapping Steel/Fairy for another of the lower power steel typings. Steel/Fairy is beyond insane on wallbreakers as history has shown us, and personally it's the only typing that gives me hesitance about the rest of the project. Steel/Electric is a strong Steel option that doesn't quite have the same absurd levels of craziness Steel/Fairy has so it's fine imo. As for potential replacements for Steel specifically I think Bug/Steel or Grass/Steel would be worthy candidates for the lower power spectrum that still have fantastic options available to them, though if you wanted another option outside the Steel wheelhouse Water/Grass is a great add also.

EDIT: Forgot to mention that I, like Estronic and a few others, don't think any of the Normal typings are worthwhile for this project and are a pretty overhyped if I'm being honest. Don't want to really regurgitate Estronic's post though so I'll leave it at that.

 

[Scizivire]

Hello, I am here to talk about the pre-slate and some other typings I feel might be good options to also consider. For what it's worth, I think most of the slate is very much good to go right now.

Ice/Fighting: I really like this typing for its offensive prowess, especially considering we have Tinted Lens. While Ice doesn't necessarily hit a lot of walls for Super Effective damage, it is still hard to find a neutral or resisting switchin, especially considering Fighting is our other STAB. Defensively it's not great but being an Ice type without a Rock weakness and having some useful resists in Bug and Dark (I'll take a Weavile check any day) definitely do not keep it lacking. Solid contender imo.

Fire/Fighting: This one I'm not too invested in, but I don't hate it either. Most of the same arguments I gave for Ice/Fighting still apply, but I think it's stronger overall and I fear it's easy to overshoot our power budget in the later stages.

Fire/Psychic: I think this typing has some incredible Super Effective coverage, and it has some cool utility. However, I don't really see much benefit that Tinted Lens gives besides the Slowtwins and Heatran (I guess Hydreigon exists, but that doesn't really like to take repeated hits anyway), because it also already has great neutral coverage. Also, Victini is already a pretty good wallbreaker/cleaner (though it can also run other sets), and I don't really see any reason to give it two more mons to compete with.

(skipping my own submission, Electric/Steel because I might be biased (also it is in fact the best typing))

Steel/Fairy: I think this typing might be too powerful defensively. It is widely regarded as the best defensive typing, and as Magearna has shown us, wallbreakers that can come in on a lot of things are very scary. The same is kind of true for Electric/Steel, but a lot of Pokémon whose STABs are resisted carry Fighting coverage, which Steel/Fairy doesn't really mind.

Water/Fairy: I'm kind of neutral on this typing. It is very solid defensively, though competing with Tapu Fini might be a tough task in that department. I think both STABs offer good utility though.

Grass/Poison: I really like Grass/Poison because defensively it checks a lot of fun things, while still having to be careful what it switches into. Offensively it greatly benefits from Tinted Lens, and it still has a good handful of resists which means we can be a little more relaxed in the stats and moves stage. This is also a very solid contender in my opinion.

Dark/Flying: The arguments quziel mentions in his post definitely make me a bit fearful for how strong this might end up being. For this reason I'm not really that interested in Dark/Flying.

---------------------------------------------------

Now for some typings I'd really like to give a chance:

Grass/Flying: This was definitely my favourite type combo that had been submitted, I was planning to sub it myself but quziel definitely did a good job conveying what I wanted to say. It has some very useful resists while having clearly defined weaknesses as well, and it really likes Tinted Lens. Grass STAB brings some good utility with it, and I think this typing and its moves work with a lot of different and cool abilities for the other forme.

Poison/Fairy: I like this typing a lot for the fact that it is good, but not the best at everything. It is very free in its design space, with good utility and solid resists. I think there's definitely a lot of opportunity to switch this in and scaring mons like Glowking out if we're physical might be really funny. I definitely like this more than Steel/Fairy and even Water/Fairy.

 

[StarFalcon555]

Potentially unpopular take, but I believe that Steel/Fairy should be dropped from the slate. I believe that it's too strong of a typing and, combined with Tinted Lens, will make CAP 30 too hard to balance. Electric/Steel at least has a 4x Ground weakness and an type that is immune to it to balance it out. Steel/Fairy does not have that. I would prefer that we replace Steel/Fairy with either Fighting/Steel or Bug/Steel, as both submissions are much more balanced than Steel/Fairy while having similar defensive utility.

 

[flying moose]

This was a late submission so there wasn't much time for people to comment on it before the preliminary slate went up, but I'm really starting to like Electric/Fighting. The more I think about it, the more I love it. It's a great example of a mix of one type that really benefits from TL and one type that gives us some great super-effective coverage against common walls. Seriously, the list of sturdy walls that we threaten naturally is huge: Toxapex, Corviknight, Skarmory, Slowking, Arghonaut, Fini, Tomohawk, Heatran, Ferrothorn, Melmetal, Equilibra. Many of these are so bulky that neutral hits aren't enough to break them, so Electric/Fighting seems tailor made for smashing the bulky things super-effectively and using Tinted Lens to clean house against everything else. On top of that, the Stealth Rock resist, Knock Off resist, U-turn resist, and paralysis immunity are all amazing.

Finding a spot on the slate for it is the hardest part. The most analogous type currently on there is Fire/Fighting, which is similarly able to smash many walls super effectively but trades the ability to slam Pex/Slowking/Fini/Argh for a wider range of defensive switch-ins. Also trades the para immunity for a burn immunity and takes normal damage from rocks instead of half. I can definitely appreciate the defensive benefits and burn immunity of fire but honestly I'm much more excited about Electric/Fighting, in part because it has never been explored and in part because of its amazing coverage.

Electric/Fighting also competes with Ice/Fighting, a typing that I also love. Much has already been written about this typing--unparalleled coverage but awful defensive attributes. I'd say Electric/Fighting falls somewhere between Ice/Fighting and Fire/Fighting on the offensive-defensive spectrum, but that overall Electric/Fighting is the most targeted in terms of super-effectively removing the major walls of the CAP metagame.

 

[Da Pizza Man]

I feel as though both of the Fairy typings should be removed from the slate. In addition to Steel/Fairy just being an insane defensive-typing and Water/Fairy forcing us to compete with Tapu Fini, my main grip with them is that Fairy is already a very spammable offensive type, and adding Tinted Lens onto the equation makes that even more apparent and could lead to some balancing issues. This is made even more apparent with Water/Fairy, as , the only relevant Pokemon in the metagame that is still able to resist Fairy after Tinted Lens, is weak to Water.

Other than that, I really don't have too many issues with this slate, although I do feel as though the exclusion of Grass/Flying feels a bit odd.

 

[Pipotchi]

I support Poison/Flying because its a pretty interesting defensive typing that you could squeeze 2 mons out of and it gets a lot out of TL. Could be a replacement for Dark/Flying on the slate.

I guess I should say it even though I know its slated, just for the sake of maybe persuading some voters: Ice/Fighting seems really messy. I think making 2 new offensive ice types will be a major challenge, as I think Kyurem and Weavile pretty much encompass everything about ice that you could go for. They have both the fragile cleaner/tanky setup variants, both operating as wallbreakers, Kyurem has the perfect neutral spam in Freeze-Dry etc. And then they also need to not outclass each other with identical typing- sounds hard.

 

[psykokitty]

I guess I'll throw in my $0.02 for whatever it's worth. I can get behind Ice/Fighting, Fire/Psychic, Steel/Electric, Grass/Poison, and Dark/Flying, but am less enthused about the other options on the slate. One typing that I think would have provided us with some interesting options was Water/Grass - I think it's a more interesting option than Water/Fairy, and both types would make good use of Tinted Lens. Fire/Fighting also seems to be a 'compromise' version of what Ice/Fighting and Fire/Psychic are trying to do, so maybe one of the Flying combos could be subbed in? If keeping Fire representation on the slate is an important factor, I think Fire/Fairy or Fire/Normal would offer slightly different roles than Fire/Fighting, at the expense of SR neutrality. Steel/Fairy is a good option for a defensive typing, but doesn't excite me for whatever reason. I think Steel/Bug would get better use out of TL without sacrificing too much defensively.

I've also been unable to log in for a few days, and so missed out on the ability to say this earlier, but I really liked what I read about the merits of the Dark typing, particularly when paired with Poison. I think Dark's resistance to Knock Off, and TL-boosted ability to threaten other Dark Types makes it a strong contender, especially when paired with Poison's immunity to Toxic. This would create plenty of opportunities for CAP30 to switch in, and both types have plenty of utility moves to use. So, I know it hasn't gotten a ton of discussion beyond one or two posts, but I think Dark/Poison is a great combination for this CAP, and if Poison representation on the slate were to be increased, I think this would be the best combo to do that with.

(The bolded typings in this post represent what my ideal slate would be)

 

[MrDollSteak]

I think the slate is actually really great and representative of discussion. The only major qualms I have are with the Fairy types, which in attempting to correct might require some further tweaks. In any case, here are my suggestions.

As others have pointed out Steel/Fairy is a really scary typing. It is one of the best defensive typings in the game, possibly even the best, and with Tinted Lens augmenting its offenses, I see it as quite hard to balance around, especially since we will have another form to deal with. As for comparable typings I would suggest either Bug/Steel for another Steel type option, or Normal/Fairy for another Fairy-type option with dual stabs resisted by Steel.

Water/Fairy is another type that I believe is unnecessary with Tinted Lens. Both types cover eachothers resists naturally, with Tinted Lens only being useful on getting neutral coverage against a few select walls in Toxapex, Ferrothorn. As others have stated, Tapu Fini already leverages this type extreme well and I worry that either or both forms of CAP 30 would directly compete and potentially be outclassed. I would much rather see Water/Grass on the slate in place of this type.

As a forecast for some of the ripple effects mentioned, I would also like to suggest replacing Fire/Psychic with Fire/Fairy, in that many of their properties are similar, although the latter doesnt have a weakness to Knock Off or Shadow Ball. I think both types are serviceable, but if we were to lose all other Fairy types on the slate, this would be one option we could use to represent one again. Finally, if this is to occur, I would suggest swapping Fire/Fighting to Fighting/Psychic to preserve a Psychic typing on the slate. Both types serve a similar offensive role, although the latter is worse against the Steel/Flying birds.

I also would personally prefer to see Poison/Flying instead of Dark/Flying but I can understand the need for some Dark representation. I think the fact that we have both Galar-Moltres and Mandibuzz as different types of presences within the tier I can't help but feel that we will tread similar ground.

 

[Reviloja753]

Regarding the slate, there are certainly types that I feel deserve to be there. Fire/Psychic, Steel/Electric, Grass/Poison, and Dark/Flying are in my opinion extremely deserving of being on the slate and should remain there. I do get Fire/Psychic is both weak to Knock Off and Stealth Rock, but I feel that considering the upsides to the combination, I think as a somewhat weaker option (in terms of weaknesses) it works just fine.

Fire/Fighting is a bit of weird one. It’s resistant to Knock Off and the only Fire combo neutral to Stealth Rock, but the combination is so powerful offensively and yet it fails to hit the bulky waters it wants to take on due to the way those Pokémon operate. I’m leaning towards taking it off the slate but I feel it could go either way? I’m not sure.

Ice/Fighting, on the other hand, I have no doubts about wanting it off the slate. While it is an Ice-type neutral to Rock and resistant to Knock Off, the combination is just so one-note in terms of potential roles. The only way to really go about making an Ice/Fighting type is to make one that goes on the attack, unlike poor Crabominable. As such, I worry that Ice/Fighting is the combo most at risk of having one form outclass the other. What’s more, Ice has next to zero utility attacks to speak of. Even worse, Icicle Crash is only 90% accurate and is thus not a truly reliable STAB Ice attack, which is bad news for a secondary typing like Fighting, which primarily excels in physical attacks. Special Fighting has Focus Blast and Aura Sphere, so hardly reliable powerful moves. Fire/Fighting sorta has that issue too, but its other traits are at least good enough to make up for it. Remove Ice/Fighting from the slate, please.

Steel/Fairy and Water/Fairy also are combinations I feel should definitely go. Steel/Fairy is simply such a scary type combination defensively, and frankly while I think this would be okay if we just had this Pokémon, I really don’t want to have to grapple with 2 Steel/Fairy types being added into the meta; that frankly sounds like a really difficult balancing act, especially with this form having 1.2x boosts on STABs and Tinted Lens. Water/Fairy has two major issues. Firstly, Tapu Fini’s presence in the metagame makes adding two more Pokémon of the same type combination to stand out a bit more difficult. The bigger issue, though, is it literally does not need Tinted Lens. The type on its own serves as almost entirely universal neutral coverage. I frankly do not see the need to use this type coverage for this ability, and I frankly feel it being chosen would be somewhat counterintuitive. I feel both current Fairy-types should be removed from the slate.

As for what should replace those type combinations, I feel that Fire/Fairy would make a good replacement for Fire/Fighting based on Spoo’s current explanation for not slating it (Fire/Psychic could go too maybe based on above posts but idk I’m tired lol), but I’m not going to soapbox for it since I submitted it. Water/Grass would be a nice type to replace Water/Fairy with, considering its unique properties as well as adding another Grass type to the slate. I’d give a more full-throated endorsement but I’m really tied lol. Idk what Steel could replace Steel/Fairy though tbh; Steel/Electric I feel is pretty representative of Steels as a whole for this concept and the remaining combos either are risking overlap with other Pokémon in the meta or are Fighting/Steel which I mean ig could work but idk.

 

[dex]

Ice fighting
Fire fighting
Fire psychic
Steel electric
Steel fairy
Water fairy
Grass poison
Dark flying

Lets go over this!

Ice/Fighting: This type goes full in on the offense and doesn't look back. I kind of appreciate it for that, and I do think it is worth slating, but it is going to have a lot of trouble actually finding switch-in opportunities.

Fire/Fighting: I still love this typing for its nice mix of defensive and offensive potential. Fire in general gives a lot of interesting utility attacks.

Fire/Psychic: Very cool type. This is probably the only Psychic combination I would even consider voting for. I like the idea of Tinted Lens backed Psychic into Fire move on Steel-types.

Steel/Electric: Personally, I don't like Electric that much for Tinted Lens. It really does not get a whole lot out of it with Ground-types being so ubiquitous and defensive Grass-types seeing minimal usage. Of the Electric-types, I like this one the most, but as a whole I am not a fan.

Steel/Fairy: I'm sort of meh on this typing. Steel is interesting with TL, but combine it with Fairy and we get a pretty nuts breaker with one of if not the best defensive typings in the game.

Water/Fairy: While this may not seem like a totally great reason to not include this typing, Tapu Fini is incredibly good right now, and Azumarill still exists in the metagame. We would have to make not one, but two CAPs that have to compete with Tapu Fini, and I just don't think that would end well.

Grass/Poison: Very cool defensive typing. Grass gains a lot from Tinted Lens, and while I'm not a huge fan of Poison, I think this is the combo that makes it work.

Dark/Flying: Dark/Flying is an awesome offensive typing that gains a lot from TL. Simply put, this typing is here to do damage and do it well. Awesome combo.

One typing I think is quite good that is not on the slate is Grass/Flying. Grass/Flying has the potential to be quite powerful behind Tinted Lens, and I think uniquely takes advantage of Grass and Flying's complementary coverage. I really do not think it matters that this typing gets rolled by Weavile.

 

[Lasen]

(written at 5am so excuse this being short!)


I don't that we should have this many Fairy types on the slate. I am of the belief that Fairy-types not only already have some of the best offensive coverage as is, the Steel/Fairy combination in particular is not only too good both offensively and defensively, I feel that Magearna has shown as exactly what the type can do on both sides of the spectrum thanks to Choice Specs set effectively acting in the same way Tinted Lens would.

Water/Fairy on the other hand, while also having been explored (twice, in fact) by two potent wallbreakers in Primarina and Azumarill and having probably some of the best resistances one can have, it also leaves us weak to the trending Electric-types and susceptible to every form of entry hazard.

Grass/Flying is a fantastic type that is probably my favorite submission; I am a big proponent of Stealth Rock weak typings because I believe it gives us a lot of design space. Having what is considered a "bad" defensive typing with plenty of weaknesses and being susceptible to being revenge killed by the best priority move in the metagame allows us to give CAP 30i the tools to be an absolute menace offensively. Grass and Flying are both offensive typings that have EXTREMELY common resistances and Steel absolutely shuts it down, allowing us to take full advantage of Tinted Lens and not have to lean on coverage to hit it.

Fire/Psychic is another typing I didn't think of much at first, but it grew on me. Another Stealth Rock weak typing (pattern, I know) that allows us to live a super-effective Knock Off, taking Future Sight exceptionally well or firing off our own busted delayed move. The typing's defensive prowess has been noted above by Victini being able to check multiple things when need be, but it was also seen in SM NU in Delphox who created some very respectable FWG cores. I definitely wanna see what we can do with this typing.

The two Fighting types in Ice and Fire fell eerily similar and not in a good way; dropping at least one of them wouldn't hurt and we could either add the aforementioned Grass/Flying, Steel/Bug or even add Fighting/Poison instead. The two slated Fighting combinations both offer amazing coverage with hard to bring in defensive typings, but I fear their switch-ins are gonna be very few.


I will agree with what some people have echoed before me: Normal typing shouldn't be slated as it provides very little and what it does give us is a very straightforward and dull process.

 

[kjnjkmjk1]

Going to throw some more last-minute support for swapping Water/Fairy with Water/Grass.

Water/Fairy does make me squint at the spammability that is already inherent in the typing, which Tinted Lens is able to boost to even higher levels. In addition, as mentioned by others, Tapu Fini doesn't compete directly in terms of wallbreaking, but it does already fulfill a lot of roles (speed control through Scarf, sweeper through Calm Mind, even defensive utility sets with things like Misty Surge's status immunity, Defog, and Knock Off), and thus 30b may be stuck trying to compete with both 30i and Tapu Fini.

Water/Grass is a more moderate option that relieves some of these issues. There aren't any Pokemon that will immediately compete with it purely on having the same typing, it's not quite as spammable without Tinted Lens, and it gets more use out of Tinted Lens against Grass types and Dragon types that otherwise resist both STABs. It loses out on some super effective hits against some bulkier Pokemon like Tomohawk, but preserves hits against Arghonaut, Colossoil, and Tyranitar, while picking up more bulky Water types in Tapu Fini, Slowking, Slowbro, and Swampert.


Some comments on other types:

I don't think I will ever be able to get over the defensive flaws in Ice/Fighting. I'm willing to be sold on its offensive potential and how it works with Tinted Lens, and one of Ice's biggest issues in being Stealth Rock weak is not present here, but there is very little potential for Ice/Fighting 30b to run defensive roles when its typing has few to no resistances or immunities to utilize and is all in on offensive power, and bulkier offensive roles will require a lot of salvaging in ability 2 and stats to get off the ground, on top of contending with the number of weaknesses the type has. As mentioned by Pip, the role of offensive Ice type is already fairly crowded, between Weavile's strong cleaning and sweeping abilities and Kyurem's nuclear power and excellent use of Freeze-Dry, and now both forms will need to compete with either of those, depending on the bias, and potentially each other. It's not impossible for us to pull two successful forms out of this, which is why I am not immediately calling for its removal, but I have doubts about it being worth the effort, and I would not be sad to see it go, either.

Poison/Flying is pretty cool. Tinted Lens helps compensate for the immunities Poison has to deal with and gives it more high-power STABs to click (particularly on the special side), while Poison provides a bunch of built-in utility through the poison chance built into its STABs. Some useful immunities to Ground and Toxic and resistances to Grass, Fairy, and Flying are just bonuses on top . It is lacking a bit in super effective hits on walls compared to some other types, but I think the utility of Poison compensates at least somewhat. If space can somehow be made on the slate for it, I'd like to see it.

As the submitter for Steel/Fairy, I feel a bit obligated to at least put up something resembling a defense of the typing. The type does have a troubled history in the OU and CAP metagames, with Mega Mawile and Magearna each having their own reigns of terror, and people are a bit afraid of Fairy as a Tinted Lens typing in general. However, I think that we're fairly capable of controlling its power simply by limiting what moves it has access to or can use effectively, as a prominent concern people have had with Tinted Lens Fairy seems to be the potential of Moonblast, and the most recent example of a Steel/Fairy type in the meta had a much more powerful Fairy STAB in Fleur Cannon. I believe we do have the tools to bring this into a reasonable power level and not immediately give in to Moonblast, and all without completely crippling 30b in the process. I'm not so attached to it that I demand that it stay on the slate, though, and if it goes, I'd be down to see Bug/Steel as a type that maintains high defensive properties while getting even more mileage out of Tinted Lens to increase an otherwise low offensive output, Steel/Fighting as a more offensive type that sacrifices some of Steel/Fairy's sheer defensive capabilities while scoring more super effective hits on bulkier targets, or even Steel/Psychic as a sort of compromise between defensive capabilities, usage of Tinted Lens, and super effective potential.

There are some other types that seem cool (Grass/Flying has been talked about a lot already, it's like Ice/Fighting in indexing a lot on offense but gets more mileage out of Tinted Lens and at least provides some nice resistances to cover for its Stealth Rock weakness; I also second Brambane in thinking Fire/Normal has at least some merit with its offensive potential and built-in utility), but I am running out of gas for this post, and I don't have any good suggestions about where to put them, so this is all they will get.