CAP 31 - Part 6 - Defining Moves

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Sorry if this is not the place or is poll-jumping, but I'm wondering what are any thoughts on HP-Healing attacks as coverage? (e.g. Horn Leech, Drain Punch, etc.)
In terms of using them for healing, I wouldn't even bother with them. The biggest issue is just that most of them are either quite weak (Parabolic Charge, Draining Kiss) or just don't heal quite enough for it to be a reliable source of healing (Pretty much all the others). In terms of using them for coverage, yeah that's sort of jumping the gun right now.
 

dex

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Pain Split seems like a fun option, I see the synergy there and it helps with taking attacks that do 40-45ish when you want to stay healthy while still being imposing. I don't think 50% recovery should be blacklisted, however, as it is pretty unique on a Ground-type with a more offensive build and definitely provides more consistency to tankier builds. I think I'd make both Pain Split and 50% recovery optional. This leaves a good deal of variability left in CAP 31 given the differences between Pain Split and 50% recovery, which will be exciting to see in the stat stage. Other recovery options like draining moves and Leech Seed seem too inconsistent to me to be worth building around and are an improper use of CAP 31's sizable remaining power budget.
 
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Rabia

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Alright, given how discussion is trending so far, people don't seem to think recovery is all too necessary, especially not the guaranteed 50% recovery moves. As a result, I'm going to list 50% recovery moves + Pain Split as optional for set submissions. I'm also going to keep Strength Sap on the soft ban list for now; it hasn't gotten a whole lot of discussion, but I don't really find it to be pro-concept as of now.

Required Moves: Diamond Storm, at least one of (Earthquake/High Horsepower/Earth Power)
Optional Moves: One of (Milk Drink/Soft-Boiled/Recover/Slack Off), Pain Split

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Let's talk utility and coverage. As of now, we don't really have a great idea of how CAP 31 will look beyond it leaning offensive. Utility moves can help give a clearer identity to CAP 31 beyond "make use of Diamond Storm boosts" because they let us see a greater picture of what CAP 31 can do. Similarly, a common theme brought up so far is how problematic coverage moves will end up. Specifically, I've seen many address the Zapdos matchup and how a move other than Diamond Storm to severely damage it could prove an issue down the line.

1) What sort of archetypes could CAP 31 fulfill when given access to utility moves? How do common utility moves like Stealth Rock, Taunt, and Knock Off synergize with Diamond Storm?

2) What limits should be put in place for our coverage? Are there certain attacking types that would be too much? Is there any inherent need for strong coverage, or would that potentially overshadow Diamond Storm?

As per last discussion, roughly 48 hours before I return with more questions!
 
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1) What sort of archetypes could CAP 31 fulfill when given access to utility moves? How do common utility moves like Stealth Rock, Taunt, and Knock Off synergize with Diamond Storm?

2) What limits should be put in place for our coverage? Are there certain attacking types that would be too much? Is there any inherent need for strong coverage, or would that potentially overshadow Diamond Storm?
1.

Bulky Wall is one of the routes that can potentially be taken with something like taunt, which should make it so it's a wall that can break through other walls, for example it makes the toxapex matchup much more comfortable by denying the use of toxic or even teleport on the slowtwins, forcing them to hard switch. Taunt also makes Corviknight not as safe of a switchin assuming we're able to take hits from it fairly well.
I'm personally a big fan of taunt due to the fact that it's one of the best ways to circumvent status, as well as denying other things like hazards.

A strong breaker/sweeper is another possible route with Swords Dance or another physical boosting move, the synergy of boosting attack with boosting our defenses makes us hard to revenge kill especially by most priority moves which are physical.


2.

Definitely agree with having Diamond Storm being or main way to hit flying types, for that reason i believe Ice and Electric are probably types we should try to stay clear from. I think it should be possible to fit extra coverage for 31, but only one viable coverage move. The introduction of multiple different coverage options will likely cause for 31 to drop Diamond Storm on certain sets, which we don't really want.

Right now my favourite options are probably Fire or Water, Fire hits many steel types that aren't threatened by our ground stab, such as :equilibra:, :corviknight:, :cawmodore: or :ferrothorn:, as well as grass types in general, which we don't match well into. While Water hits many ground types that we'd usually have trouble breaking.
 
I have to go soon, so I'll only answer the 2nd question right now.

Electric and Ice should 100% be off the table, as these hit Flying types super-effectively and are the main targets for Diamond Storm. I don't think coverage moves that hit Flying for neutral damage are bad by themselves, but I think coverage moves that have a high base power might risk overshadowing it (for example something like Flare Blitz might be used to hit Equilibra and Ferrothorn and since it hits most Flying types for decent enough damage already it wouldn't likely be using Diamond Storm). Grass is a fantastic coverage option IMO, it will never overshadow Diamond Storm due to Flying and Fire types resisting it, and we already have Water Absorb anyway, meaning that beating Water types with Grass coverage I don't feel like is too out there. Fighting I believe is the next best one, it won't overshadow Diamond Storm due to it being resisted by Flying, and it gets Ferrothorn and Equilibra. Between Grass and Fighting I would only pick one, as I think having both would make counterplay a little tricky. If I had to choose between the two I would say Grass because it has better synergy with our primary ability.
 

quziel

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1) What sort of archetypes could CAP 31 fulfill when given access to utility moves? How do common utility moves like Stealth Rock, Taunt, and Knock Off synergize with Diamond Storm?

In terms of direct synergy, I believe that Taunt is probably the best. Diamond Storm encourages us to stay in for long periods of time, Diamond Storm's defense boosts can be "countered" by Swords Dance, Diamond Storm is "countered" by Toxic, all of these effects are directly prevented by Taunt. Taunt also gives us a major niche over both Garchomp and Landorus, who both lack it, and gives us a rather interesting matchup into some of the Water-types we'd like to answer (preventing Slowbro TP/Slack is nice, as is preventing Zapdos Roost). This works directly with a "stallbreaking" archetype, letting us deny most of our more passive checks.

Knock Off and Corrosive Gas (its functional clone) both help increase Diamond Storm's effective damage into Corviknight and Landorus, helping out our PP issues, however I do worry that Knock could potentially overshadow Dstorm, as we know from Landorus that EQ + Knock is very compressed coverage. Granted, I believe Dstorm is frankly a very good move, so Dstorm + Knock + EQ seems feasible, but this is a place I'd be worried. These can fit on a general utility ground archetype, or again on a "stallbreaking" archetype.

Stealth Rock and Spikes both help us conserve Diamond Storm PP by punishing an opponent trying to switch around our limited uses, and again, help us both in comparison and in competition with Lando-T + Chomp. Stealth Rock helps us slot over them on many structures as we are well, a Ground-type Stealth Rock user, which helps our synergy with existing cores, and Spikes could give us a very unique niche over them. Of the two I would heavily prefer SR, but I think both are worth considering as Defining Moves.

I suppose I should mention Heal Bell / Aroma as an alternative to Taunt when it comes to making us more durable into Toxic and Willowisp, however I am not fully convinced that we'd end up running these moves if given as while they're useful enough, they're not amazing. Still, could help us into Heatran?

2) What limits should be put in place for our coverage? Are there certain attacking types that would be too much? Is there any inherent need for strong coverage, or would that potentially overshadow Diamond Storm?

I do not believe that our coverage should be able to hit Flying-types very hard. Knock Off worries me for crippling Zap/Lando, anything Ice has a high chance to just remove Dstorm, anything Electric likely doesn't get run over Dstorm (due to bad BP), but still likely isn't worth the risk. The areas where I think coverage is helpful is hitting one of the three main resists to Dstorm+EQ, aka Corv, Equilibra, Ferrothorn as a lure option. I do not think we should really focus for creating a main set option here though.
 
2) What limits should be put in place for our coverage? Are there certain attacking types that would be too much? Is there any inherent need for strong coverage, or would that potentially overshadow Diamond Storm?
Ice and Electric should be banned. One of Diamond Storm's strongest points is that, against Flying types that ground cannot hit, Diamond Storm hits SE. On the other hand, typings that Flying resist are likely safe choices for coverage, as that means we still have that need to run Diamond Storm to hit flying types. Among those types are Fighting, Bug, and Grass.

Fighting has some overlap with Diamond Storm when it comes to dealing with Ice types. Weavile in particular is the most prominent Ice type, and it will shatter in the face of Fighting coverage, which does render one boon of Diamond Storm obsolete. Likewise, the only typings that Fighting covers that aren't already hit by Ground or Rock is Dark and Normal. Normal is literally just Blissey, and Dark types are not just hit neutrally by us, but can be hit SE by other options as well. For these reasons, I think it is worth considering not having Fighting coverage as well.

To look back at Bug and Grass, both of these typings allow us deal with Slowbro, but not significantly much else. Grass is SE vs Water types that would normally threaten us out offensively such as Tapu Fini and Rotom-Wash, while Bug... Doesn't really do much of anything but threaten the already scared Weavile. With this, I think the safest choice for coverage is Grass.

As an aside, the EdgeQuake combo can hit almost everything in the game neutrally as it is. The only things we cannot hit for neutral is Equilibra among relevant options (and Bronzong/Virizion among irrelevant options.) Grass would change that to a neutral matchup, but Water would allow us to hit Equilibra SE, as well as giving a bonus advantage against Balloon Heatran and most importantly, Landorus-T. I think that it is a typing worth further discussion.
 

spoo

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1) What sort of archetypes could CAP 31 fulfill when given access to utility moves? How do common utility moves like Stealth Rock, Taunt, and Knock Off synergize with Diamond Storm?

2) What limits should be put in place for our coverage? Are there certain attacking types that would be too much? Is there any inherent need for strong coverage, or would that potentially overshadow Diamond Storm?
I'd like to echo quziel and others on Taunt's usefulness. This move is a no-brainer in many ways, and I believe it should be optional. I don't think it should be required right now because if we later want our "main set" to be focused on, for example, setup or strong coverage, Taunt may conflict with these options power-wise or straight up just overshadow them and deny their usage.

Knock and Toxic are two utility moves we need to be very careful with, especially Toxic. These two moves are fantastic ways of pressuring most Flying-types and thus risk overshadowing Diamond Storm. Diamond Storm is still an incredible move so I doubt it would ever be pushed off of our main set, but I think these two options could take away a lot of the mileage we'd otherwise get out of it. I'm still willing to entertain Knock Off despite being very cautious about it, but honestly I think Toxic should be blacklisted; it's simply not necessary for us.

I also agree that Ice-type coverage should be blacklisted. Electric-type coverage I care less about, because frankly Electric + Ground is pretty awful two-move coverage when Lando and Ferro run the tier, and a lot of Electric moves are just weak to begin with. That said, blacklisting it out of an abundance of caution is also fine.

One thing I am personally interested in exploring is situational Fire-type coverage, specifically on the special side or weak physical moves. Fire-type moves have very cool interactions with some potential threats to us, namely Ferrothorn, Kartana, and to a lesser extent Corviknight and Libra. Overheat in particular is a really neat "finishing blow" against weakened Corv and Libra, makes the Diamond Storm boosts extremely useful against Kartana if we underspeed it, and greatly heightens our matchup against Ferrothorn. I do worry that these moves aren't totally practical –– ie, how much SpA would we need/want? what nature are we running if not -SpA? are low-BP physical options ever worth running over better utility moves? –– but they are still fun and interesting to consider. Also, a 3-attack build leans into an offensive chassis much more than a lot of proposed options so far, which is something we established early could be beneficial for us. I have mixed feelings about a route like this, but I thought I'd at least throw the idea out there.
 

Brambane

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Taunt is good, but probably fits bests as optional imo. Not going to rehash why it is here; scroll above and read why.

I am going to take a more harsh stance against Knock Off, as I think that the version of CAP31 that runs Diamond Storm alongside these moves fall into three categories:
1. CAP31 is an extremely offensive set-up sweeper, and uses Knock Off strictly as a way to win a situational 1v1 vs something like Libra, but still needs Diamond Storm to blow past Zapdos (in this case, Knock Off is relatively low impact)
2. CAP31 needs Diamond Storm not to become absolute fodder to Coil E-Book (which raises its Defense and has Roost mindgames to boot)
3. CAP31 is so completely devoid of options that it doesn't have viable choices over Diamond Storm, so it runs it anyways

The ladder seems like a very boring way to design this mon, but that is purely subjective. I think we are slightly at risk as overhyping Diamond Storm as a move; it is a better Stone Edge with a damn good upside, but Knock Off is just so consistent. This moves almost always makes relevant progress over the course of a game. If this Pokemon ends up with a build that facilitates pivoting with Water Absorb, as Ground-types are already pivoting points on a lot of teams due to mons they are required to answer defensively, Knock Off seems positioned to eclipse Diamond Storm, if not push it off the set outright.

Corrosive Gas is the safer option for item removal, since it doesn't offer the same degree of offensive compression of applying chip to Flying-types. A basic scenario: if you lose your boots and take a big Knock, mons like Zapdos are really pressured to Roost, doubly so if rocks are up, which can be easily exploited to maintain momentum (if they Roost) or set them up later with a KO thanks to racking up the SR damage. And Corrosive Gas doesn't have that offensive component, making it a niche option, which for our concept is probably where it belongs.

Toxic is nice to further annoy mons like Landorus-T, serve as a solid midground into mons like Zapdos, and likely improve the Buzzwole MU. I was on the fence whether or not this move would displace Diamond Storm on a bulkier, pivot-style mon, and the answer is depends a lot on what other moves we give 31. I think there would be fewer times when you feel the urge to click Diamond Storm since Toxic works as a play, but Toxic + EQ seems shit into something like Tornadus-T who can Regen off the Toxic chip, and super shit into Corvi, Libra, and Venomicon. The last one here is the big point; Venomicons are both strong still even as the meta adapts to their presence, and leaving yourself open to them seems ripe for disaster. The adjustment of Stone Edge on Garchomp is evident enough of this. But if this Pokemon gets a repositioning tool + Toxic, i.e. basically Landorus-T, I could see Diamond Storm become somewhat more niche. I don't have a strong opinion on whether or not Toxic should be included.

This is a really minor side note, but not giving 31 Toxic denies it a tool that all the other relevant Ground-types (except Libra) utilize to various degrees. I don't think this is inherently a bad thing, since CAP31's ideal position within the meta for me is relevant enough on its merits to be competitive with other Ground-types for a teamslot, but does not completely displace them. Denying 31 Toxic makes it less likely to do the ladder. But that is my own two cents from my subjective view of an ideal CAP31.

Rapid Spin would likely be good, and CAP sure does love its Rapid Spinning Ground-types. This is just a really tried and true move on what is going to be an offensive mon that likely would also appreciate the Speed boost. This doesn't displace the other Ground-type spinners due to their secondary typings and movepool options, but it certainly makes 31 competitive with them. Spin seems like an easy optional inclusion to me. Defog is similar, and likely will be more balanced with some stat spreads.

And I agree with quz on SR and Spikes. Not much else for me to add.

The key takeaway for me from utility moves is that CAP31 is already positioned to serve as a useful pivot based on typing and ability. These moves can reinforce that role. I don't think we should be discouraging CAP31 from doing this since "switching out after getting +2 from Diamond Storm is anti-synergistic/anti-concept/whatever." Defense boosts are good, but Diamond Storm is a still only a coverage move for us, and we are basically coin-flipping for the boost. It's nice to take advantage of it when it happens and can deny counterplay from the opponent, but it isn't consistently useful. Its easier to design around consistency, and if we aren't going for the all-in sweeper route, we may as well embrace the pivoting route because pivots are consistently useful. Especially Ground-type ones like Landorus-T, Colossoil, Tankchomp, and Equilibra. With that in mind, U-Turn is a utility move worth looking at for CAP31.

As far as coverage goes, I agree with banning Ice and probably Electric too.

Special Fire moves are likely fine and feel like a good place to "push the envelope." They are clearly a tech option, and tech options honestly just make mons more interesting and flexible to build with, and if they become obnoxious to play against its pretty easy to identify. And I don't think they have a chance to displace Diamond Storm on a moveset.

Fighting-type moves are probably the strongest coverage type for us that doesn't outright replace Diamond Storm. There are different degrees of power here (Body Press vs Superpower vs Close Combat) that would be worth exploring if we want to give this mon a solid option for obliterating Equilibra and potentially forcing good damage onto Corviknight. I don't really have much of a take on this rn, these moves are worth discussing more when we get to boosting moves as well imo.

Strong Grass-type moves (i.e. 90 BP+) seems like a perfect fit for us though. The first part is its a midground option vs Libra that doesn't alter our MU into mons like Corviknight or Buzzwole at all, which is nice from a design standpoint going back to checks and counters and moving forward with stats. But really these moves are for taking the cool identity of "pure Ground-type that is good into Waters" and running with it. Something along the lines of Power Whip just speeds up the process vs Slowbro and gives us a way to hammer Rotom-Wash. Effectively every relevantly Water-type in the metagame can now be (stats pending) answered reliably by CAP31, which honestly is just plain awesome and gives CAP31 a distinct identity.
 
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1) What sort of archetypes could CAP 31 fulfill when given access to utility moves? How do common utility moves like Stealth Rock, Taunt, and Knock Off synergize with Diamond Storm?

2) What limits should be put in place for our coverage? Are there certain attacking types that would be too much? Is there any inherent need for strong coverage, or would that potentially overshadow Diamond Storm?
Hey y'all! This is my first time participating in a CAP process so I'm sorry if I sound stupid. CAP has always fascinated me and I decided to jump right in. I have to leave in a few moments so I apologize if I don’t elaborate much, will definitely come back later though.

I'd like to reiterate what was said by quizel as well that Taunt synergizes the best with Diamond Storm and I’d go as far to say that Taunt is Defining. Diamond Storm's defense boost gives CAP 31 a more solid standing in battle and Taunt allows CAP 31 to capitalize off of that by preventing things like Roost, Toxic, and set up sweepers.

I personally don't feel too strongly about Knock Off. I do agree however with Brambane that Corrosive Gas would be the better option for item removal since it gives CAP 31 a more specific niche.

As for hazards, I'm interested in Toxic Spikes and think it’s worth discussion. Though Toxic Spikes would typically be countered by poison types, they run the risk of getting hit with Earthquake, meaning the only good counters to Toxic Spikes would be Corviknight, Equilibra, and most other Defog users.

I also agree that Ice and Electric should be blacklisted. Not much to elaborate on here, they harp too much on what Diamond Storm is already doing. The two most obvious candidates for coverage moves right now are Water and Grass. Grass compliments CAP 31 better because, though it does have immunity to water types in Water Absorb, it doesn’t have a great offensive solution for water types. Plus, hitting Equilibra for neutral damage isn’t something to scoff at. Water would be a useful addition and provide great coverage, but powerful grass moves in addition to powerful Special Type Fire moves, such as Overheat, would allow for more interesting plays. Having these two tools at CAP 31’s disposal will make Pokemon such as Ferrothorn and Equilibra tread with caution.

When it comes to Fighting type coverage, I’m torn between Body Press and Close Combat. Body Press does more damage with Diamond Storm’s defense boosts and isn’t affected by Intimidate. However, I feel as though Close Combat’s greater immediate power may be more consistently useful, especially if CAP 31 ends up taking on more of a pivot role, while still being able to take advantage of Diamond Storm’s defense boost.

Lastly, I think some physical Ghost moves could compliment CAP 31 well, especially Shadow Sneak. I think it’d be worth discussion!
 
IMO CAP 31 should absolutely NOT get Knock Off or Toxic and I believe it will never run Diamond Storm if it gets either of them. Landorus-Therian doesn't run Rock coverage because Knock Off and Toxic are just so much better, already threatening Flying types (and birds losing their boots sucks for them), as well as being more threatening to the overall metagame. I think they should be blacklisted.

A move that I want to bring to light that I've been thinking about is Counter. Solely for the Kartana matchup. If we are at 2+ or 3+ Defense, we could potentially survive a hit and kill it back. What makes Counter more appealing to me than actual Fighting type coverage is that Counter is much more targeted, because it allows us to beat Kartana but still leaves Ferrothorn and Equilibra as answers to us (sure Ferrothorn has physical attacks but it can just Leech Seed us). Now, I honestly don't think it would see too much use if it got it because of how situational it is, and we are not guaranteed to survive a Life Orb Leaf Blade at 2+, but it is very pro-concept in my eyes, and it allows us to get Grass coverage while still leaving counterplay, I think it should at least be in Optional.

This doesn't feel like a coverage move but I don't think Counter really fits any of the other categories. I believe it qualifies enough to count as coverage, but I apologize if this stage isn't the place to talk about it and will delete this part if it isn't.

As for hazards, I'm interested in Toxic Spikes and think it’s worth discussion. Though Toxic Spikes would typically be countered by poison types, they run the risk of getting hit with Earthquake, meaning the only good counters to Toxic Spikes would be Corviknight, Equilibra, and most other Defog users.
I don't think you sound stupid, but I respectfully disagree that it should get Toxic Spikes. Poison types, Corviknight, Equilibra and Defog users are not the only good counters to it. That would be Heavy-Duty Boots. It's bad enough that 3 extremely popular types in the metagame are immune to it. But when the most popular item in the game grants an immunity to it, it is very difficult to justify Toxic Spikes. It is much more practical to poison with the standard Toxic.
 
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dex

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1) What sort of archetypes could CAP 31 fulfill when given access to utility moves? How do common utility moves like Stealth Rock, Taunt, and Knock Off synergize with Diamond Storm?
Offensive utility is a hot topic in the current metagame; many Pokemon have seen meteoric rises and high usage due to their ability to both output offensively and provide teams with much-needed role compression. Tapu Fini with Trick, Nihilego with Stealth Rock, and Venomicon with its typing and ability all qualify. Stealth Rock and Spikes are great options that don't eat into Diamond Storm's slot, giving CAP 31 a tool that every team needs. Taunt synergizes incredibly with the fact that Diamond Storm is not STAB, preventing recovery from defensive Zapdos and Corviknight. It also comes with the added benefit of avoiding Toxic from various users and preventing Ferrothorn from really beating CAP 31 if it is not Power Whip. Knock Off I think has obvious synergy with Diamond Storm in weakening its checks overtime; however, I too am not a fan of the move for it hampering CAP 31's access to other moves. Knock Off is a powerful move, and given that we want CAP 31 to be using Diamond Storm on every set, I'd rather not run the risk nor interact with Knock Off's limiting effect.

2) What limits should be put in place for our coverage? Are there certain attacking types that would be too much? Is there any inherent need for strong coverage, or would that potentially overshadow Diamond Storm?
Won't speak on attacking types that would be too much, as that has already been covered. I will speak, however, on the topic of coverage in general. I think niche coverage options are fine. I think the best option for this would be special fire coverage for the quad-weaks, Skarmory, and Equilibra. Grass and Water coverage is also decent here, as it isn't so universally good like Fighting is. I do want to note, however, that coverage is not necessary. Ground/Rock is pretty great coverage on its own, and its shortcomings can be made up for via longevity or utility. No coverage type should be required, but i think Special Fire, Water, and Grass would all be fine in the current context of CAP 31.
 
I am beating a dead horse but Taunt seems incredible for this Mon, whatever our role ends up being. It provides some protection against status, is a decent way to prevent something like Corviknight from Roosting on our face after taking chip damage from DS etc. I do believe CAP is best suited for some offensive role, whether it is skewed towards utility or raw sweeping power (or something in-between) remains to be seen but providing some way to circumvent what we already identified as major roadblocks is very important.

Same goes for Knock Off which feels too easy to slot in. Landorus-T proves it times and times again, Knock Off is strong and has few drawbacks. It's easy to see how it could overshadow Diamond Storm seeing as Ground / Dark is decent coverage and absolutely no one likes taking a Knock Off in the face. Same arguments against Toxic. Thunder Wave is cool: our C&C don't care but as mentioned before, Diamond Storm utility increases when we outspeed the opponent. Having a way to make that it easier is a good option and I don't see it competing with Diamond Storm for a slot. Nothing against Corrosive Gas neither.

Aromatherapy / Heal Bell are nice but seem a bit too niche and not impactful enough.

Hazards (mostly speaking of SR / Spikes) and Hazard-removal are nice. I don't have a very strong opinion about them but they seem a safe bet. Rapid Spin can definitely allow some funny shenanigans with the speed boost which I wouldn't mind for now. Most of all, they provide a move we can use in the face of some of our checks to make some progress while saving our precious DS PPs.

One move that I have not seen mentioned is Switcheroo that is interesting. Ground / Rock is good enough for a potential Choice-user and may provide us good opportunities. Unlike Knock Off, it interacts more with our potential sets and our opponents. If we play well our cards, it provides us with a free turn that can be just what we need to get our DS boost or just do whatever we want. It also makes CAP a decent Knock Off sponge as it can still steals an item from the opponent. I believe this is the kind of offensive utility that can have some niche but very useful applications without taking the spotlight away from Diamond Storm.

On the subject of coverage, I agree with the general sentiment of "Get Ice / Electric out of here". I like Grass & Water as they provide us with a way to pressure Ground-types, much like how Garchomp uses Aqua Tail. Once again, I don't think they can take the place of Diamond Storm, especially Grass. Water / Ground is decent coverage but Water physical-moves themselves are a bit underwhelming. I don't mind Fighting neither as long as we avoid Close Combat which threatens our C&C list a bit too much.
 
Question one was already perfectly answered by Quz imo

2) What limits should be put in place for our coverage? Are there certain attacking types that would be too much? Is there any inherent need for strong coverage, or would that potentially overshadow Diamond Storm?
The two coverage types we should absolutely avoid are Ice and Fire. Ground paired with both of these is absolutely better than Edge Quake, if we chose a reasonably strong option like icicle crash or flare blitz. The best I can say about these types here is that their Special moves are generally better as coverage, So weaker physical options might end up ok. Still both types have the ability to push out dstorm.
Electric is another type, that competes with Diamond Storm for hitting flying types.
While it’s physical moves are absolutely worse and missing out on Zapdos and Lando is huge, I don’t think we should take the risk, as it also doesn’t provide a lot of additional target s (imagine trying to kill Slowbro with Thunder Punch.

Imo the most coherent coverage type here is Grass.
While it doesn’t help against some of the Steels we struggle with, high power grass attacks double down on 31s ability to pressure water types as a ground and adds Mons like Fini, Slowbro and Arghonaut that we can reasonably beat.
Fighting on the other hand is the option I prefer to be able to hit the Steels we currently struggle into.
Both Ground Fighting and Ground Grass are not capable of dealing with flying types, which lets Diamond Storm shine.
At the same time they offer really powerful moves that are worth running as coverage.
 

ausma

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+1ing Taunt, pretty much everybody's talked about its merits and I don't think there's much else for me to add. The main thing I would like to emphasize how great it is that it can deny recovery, especially if we're pairing this with hazards or other options to accumulate damage against our natural checks. It just keeps CAP 31 afloat and lets its damage stick; it feels like a no-brainer. I do agree it should be an optional move, though, as it feels like something that more augments its kit on bulkier sets as opposed to something CAP 31 should be centered around using to find value.

I +1 Stealth Rock and Spikes to a lesser extent, and think at least the former is worth adding because most Ground-types available have access to the option, and having Stealth Rock means that we'll be able to explore the same Defog interactions that other key Ground-types share with Corviknight, with a positive matchup going into Tornadus-T/Zapdos being potentially of note. I don't think they'll at all be fixtures of its gameplan, but giving it a setting option does diversify potential team applications, and considering that Zapdos and Tornadus-T are both pretty good removal options, Diamond Storm remains a pretty strong option to have to tip the scales in CAP 31's favor as a setter. I prefer Stealth Rock since it means potentially more chip against Corviknight.

Hazard Removal I couldn't really care less for, and honestly don't really think is an avenue worth pursuing. Considering we'll be playing quite a bit into Corviknight and Landorus-T who will clear hazards regardless, I struggle to really see what value it'll give us unless our damage output is consistently reliable into both of them to a point where their use of Defog is deterred.

I'm indifferent on Toxic; it's a flexible, but not defining option that performs nicely as a midground for Pokemon that are going to be naturally much less afraid to come into CAP 31, putting pressure against Landorus-T, Slowbro, and Buzzwole specifically while letting it be more deliberate with Diamond Storm PP. Much like Stealth Rock, it's not something I see being a natural fixture into its gameplan, aside from letting CAP 31 focus more on outlasting Toxic-prone checks, but does provide an ease-of-use option that gives it opportunities to find value against bulkier structures willing to take its onslaught of attacks. It also feels like an option that would shine a lot more if we opt for 50% recovery, letting it take a war of attrition route, but with Pain Split it seems a bit unideal and messy to work with. Venomicon existing most certainly incentivizes it to hold onto Diamond Storm here, if nothing else.

Speaking of status, I'd like to invite Glare (but more realistically, Thunder Wave) to discussion. While Thunder Wave was briefly mentioned and would definitely be a more balanced option if Glare is too strong, I do think having a status-setting option that can, indiscriminately, cripple a great amount of its checks, including Corviknight, potentially Ground-types depending on the move, and really any Pokemon that isn't an Electric-type (which we have positive matchups into anyway) is an incredibly potent option into nearly all of its answers and, prominently, could help offensively diversify CAP 31 thanks to the speed reduction to open more offensive turns as well as the full paralysis chance to safely boost with Diamond Storm. It also has uses like letting it maintain its threat factor against more dedicated offensive structures to consistently pressure frailer breakers that may be willing to switch in once or twice, or more easily force switches by having the first move to break past them. Furthermore, paralysis is a potentially appealing option if we opt for Pain Split as recovery, since health would be more valuable by merit of Pain Split being fundamentally inconsistent, and paralysis would, usually, give CAP 31 the first move to keep its HP secure. I could see it being either too weak or too strong, but I think it's something worth thinking about.

Knock Off is a flexible option that feels like a less pro-concept variant of Toxic, which makes me lean against it more decisively. It punishes and makes progress against its checks, but does very little else aside from disruption and playing pretty much exclusively into a defensive niche that doesn't do much more than that, and doesn't really play to Diamond Storm's winning potential at all, unless you're removing a Choice Specs or Life Orb. If anything I would even argue it actively dissuades the use of Diamond Storm since you'll be having a move that naturally pressures airborne Pokemon with item disruption which also just so happens to cover other Pokemon that annoy CAP 31, which is huge given how strapped for slots CAP 31 already is. I can't really say I like it here at all.

________________

Coverage

As a general note here, I'd really like to quickly mention that, to get value, the coverage, to have incentive, has to have value in helping it expand and/or improve its matchup pool relative to its utility options. If CAP 31 is going to, on average, get more game-to-game value against most of its threats, which may include those that coverage would help against, through mechanisms like versatile status or Taunt over a given coverage option, then what's the point of giving it said coverage option? This is particularly important for CAP 31 considering that CAP 31 faces a unique conundrum where, despite us being super early into the moves stage, is already immensely strapped for moveslots, with two already being filled for STAB and Diamond Storm, and potentially another for recovery. That's why I think powerful coverage may be important if we want to particularly play into CAP 31's offensive potential.

Electric- and Ice-type coverage are an absolute nope from me. On paper, both types are amazing in helping it secure actually consistent and threatening matchups into Corviknight and Landorus-T respectively, but in practice, competing for a slot with Diamond Storm into Tornadus-T and Zapdos makes them incredibly volatile ideas relative to CAP 31's concept, as opposed to broken.

I'd like to be an advocate for Fire-type coverage. I know a lot of people have expressed distaste for it, but Fire-coverage locks some very specific matchups that are genuinely helpful for CAP 31 over utility while not making Diamond Storm even close to a moot option considering that Diamond Storm is a move that would be heavily preferred going into Tornadus-T and Zapdos. Obviously, Corviknight is a clear and major target, but being able to hit Buzzwole, Equilibra, and Ferrothorn is also of note considering all three are also rather unideal matchups that can readily block its progress in tandem with Corviknight. If the coverage is too perfect to some, I really liked spoo’s idea of specialized Special coverage as that also gives CAP 31 a much easier time blowing things like Buzzwole out of the water while maintaining a focus on its primary offensive moves and keeping Fire-coverage’s core merits. While it may also split its power some to a point of inefficiency, it would likely still consistently force Roost out of Corviknight, which is strong in and of itself in the context of this CAP. Despite that though I don't think physical coverage would be that bad considering the core type matchups Fire-type coverage excels at and is more mediocre into in comparison to Diamond Storm, especially with the secondary effect in mind, so long as we’re deliberate with what options we give it to ensure it wouldn’t be too much to handle.

Grass-type coverage is a cool idea, mostly because it safely locks the pressure against bulky Water-types that can't Scald CAP 31, but have absolutely no qualms in making progress in other ways, particularly in Slowbro and Tapu Fini's cases. The major appeal here is that alongside honoring Diamond Storm's appeal. I'd be for exploring it, but again, we're looking really strapped on moveslots, which in and of itself may make Grass-type coverage hard to afford, especially if we have utility that can pressure these Pokemon anyway. I think this option has a ton of merit if we want to play into optimizing CAP 31's already positive matchups, but depending on what utility CAP 31 packs, it may wind up situational, which makes me indifferent, but willing to see exploration on it.

Fighting-type coverage is fine. It mostly depends on what moves we opt for, with Close Combat and Body Press being of particular note. I think the main thing to consider is high pressure against Equilibra and Ferrothorn, with the ability to potentially force Roost against Corviknight. Though, again: if utility serves to help CAP 31 against these Pokemon as well as others, I feel it's probable it would drop Fighting-type coverage in favor of them considering the sheer importance of CAP 31's moveslots, but since utility gets less value into these targets than others, it feels decently likely to be a practical pick anyway.
 
What about Bug as a coverage option? Something like First Impression could force out grass types (minus ferro) into flying types that resist it, and put 31 in a good spot to fire off DS. Libra and Lando are still viable switch ins as well
 

Brambane

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What about Bug as a coverage option? Something like First Impression could force out grass types (minus ferro) into flying types that resist it, and put 31 in a good spot to fire off DS. Libra and Lando are still viable switch ins as well
With First Impression aside, since that move has way more applications than just Bug coverage, the main issue with Bug is that the historic threats you would run Ground/Rock/Bug coverage for just aren't relevant. Of the Grass-types it would hit for decent damage, its just Rillaboom at the moment. There aren't the Celebi and Latios floating around like in older gens, nor is there a major Dark-type threat that isn't already hit hard by QuakeEdge. In theory you could use like Megahorn for Slowbro, but at that rate Grass coverage makes more sense for us.

As for First Impression itself, I guess being Ground-type that is able to force out Weavile and Rillaboom is cool, but that seems like it would fit as a weird tech option or if something like AV or 3 Attacks would make sense on the mon.
 
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Fighting has some overlap with Diamond Storm when it comes to dealing with Ice types. Weavile in particular is the most prominent Ice type, and it will shatter in the face of Fighting coverage, which does render one boon of Diamond Storm obsolete. Likewise, the only typings that Fighting covers that aren't already hit by Ground or Rock is Dark and Normal. Normal is literally just Blissey, and Dark types are not just hit neutrally by us, but can be hit SE by other options as well. For these reasons, I think it is worth considering not having Fighting coverage as well.
Outside of Weavile (Which you mentioned), Rock and Fighting really don't have a whole lot of overlap when it comes to serving as coverage. Also Fighting let's us hit both Ferrothorn (Who is quite prominent right now) and Equilibra (Not as relevant but at the moment it pretty much hard counters us) for super-effective damage, which is a pretty huge boon for it all things considered. Ground + Fighting also has the issue in that it fails to hit most Flying-Types for even neutral damage without having to rely on predicting Roosts correctly, and Diamond Storm fixes that, so I wouldn't really say Fighting coverage renders Diamond Storm obsolete. In fact, I think they actually go really well together.
 

Rabia

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A bit early here, but I want to formally disallow Ice- and Electric-type coverage. Everyone is in agreement that Electric and Ice overlap with Rock too much, so I'd like to see discussion more focused on Water-, Grass-, Fire-, and Fighting-type coverage, which have gotten more support throughout the thread.

I'm also disallowing Knock Off for reasons similar to Ice and Electric coverage in that it's basically too good against Diamond Storm targets. Corrosive Gas, however, is still fine to be discussed.

About 27 more hours until the next slate of questions, keep up the good discussion
 

Zetalz

Expect nothing, deliver less
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Special Fire coverage is cool and I support it for optional, pretty much all I had to say about it has been said.

Fighting is something I like a lot, the only coverage type I've not had much if any issue with for a bit now, very targeted into Steels that cause 31 issues and runs little to no risk of pushing out Diamond Storm. Will say though that Body Press is ungood for this mon, we learned our lesson from Venomicon that Bpress is really not all it's cracked up to be when you don't heavily build around it, so would prefer to stick to ol' reliables like CC.

Water & Grass are strange, not quite sure how I feel about 'em tbh. Water is neat for annoying Libra and Lando but outside of that don't see it being terribly valuable (also it makes for a wonky interaction vs other 31s which typically is not desirable). Grass I feel has a stronger merit, having a stronger tool to really pressure the Waters that can't force you out is pretty neat especially into the likes of Bro who feels completely comfortable eating an EQ before pivoting on you. I don't feel strongly enough still on either of these but push come to shove I think Grass would be the better niche coverage pick.

I do want to note, however, that coverage is not necessary. Ground/Rock is pretty great coverage on its own, and its shortcomings can be made up for via longevity or utility. No coverage type should be required
Also want to heavily second this statement because I've felt this way for a while now, coverage is far from the be-all end-all for 31. Going down avenues of Utility or Boosting and just making the good EdgeQuake even gooderer could be a very rewarding path for this project.
 

Korski

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is a CAP Contributoris a Forum Moderator Alumnus
Okay so Pain Split is a much better idea than Recover. I agree with the thread here that, if we do anything recovery-wise, situationally consistent damage-dealing recovery is the way to go. The more I think about it, the more I like it, actually, especially with Water Absorb you are really rewarded for smart play and can apply offensive pressure while healing in a balanced way without momentum sink. For that same reason I wouldn’t completely write off Leech Seed, though, as it can apply tons of pressure in its own right and net some chunky gains vs. the fatmons that currently check us best. Even if you switch out, you’re still doing damage after you’re gone. The fact that, as things stand, Grass-types are cool coming into us makes it more of a niche option, but I still wouldn’t rule it out entirely if you consider it from an offensive mindset. Both Pain Split and Leech Seed being optional is fine, although I want both and I don’t want Recover, personally.

For coverage I like Grass, only. I could repeat the very good pro-Grass points made by others in the thread but my main argument here is actually just the last word of that sentence. This is sort of a loaded position, but it would be good to discuss how “diverse” we think CAP’s movesets need to be in order to function. Some Pokemon, you know what their four moves are, or you can identify the set at team preview or after a single turn of taking damage, and that’s okay because they are good moves and they are the best/only viable sets and the Poke uses them well and is consistently useful with them. Other Pokemon get a big viability boost with access to bluff/lure options that force your opponent to scout before making any confident moves or makes them readjust on the fly, putting them on their back foot. The second category there is enormously powerful, and we should take that into consideration when discussing things like Fire, Fighting, and Water coverage, which I am seeing coming into favor precisely for targeting specific Pokemon that would be natural switch-ins otherwise. Personally I am wary of giving CAPs the tools to counter their counters, especially since we are more than likely able to make a viable creation without that sort of trickery. Weavile is doing just fine with Arghonaut in the tier, while Astrolotl had to be nerfed for being un-counterable, to use two examples. I am also wary of the moveslot maintenance aspect of adding more than one viable coverage type when we need to be conscious of protecting Diamond Storm’s place in line when it comes to clicking buttons in play.


- Earthquake
- Diamond Storm
- Choose two of: Power-Up Punch / Pain Split / [Grass move] / Taunt / Substitute

There are four viable movesets in there, as far as I see it, with zero slashes threatening Diamond Storm’s spot in the roster. It would certainly be a cool effort to build an offense-focused CAP around passive benefits to dealing damage, with Diamond Storm, Power-Up Punch, and Pain Split being the stars of the show. I do not think that we need to have an abundance of coverage, or even utility, for that matter, when we’ve centered our strategy around neutral damage (EdgeQuake) and maintaining a steady offensive presence over time. I am ambivalent to entry hazards and status as they seem to me like the typical grab-bag of extras and distractions, but that’s mostly due to personal preference.

Mod Edit: Deleted mention of setup move (Power-Up Punch) Please wait until the next stage of defining moves.
 
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For coverage I like Grass, only. I could repeat the very good pro-Grass points made by others in the thread but my main argument here is actually just the last word of that sentence. This is sort of a loaded position, but it would be good to discuss how “diverse” we think CAP’s movesets need to be in order to function. Some Pokemon, you know what their four moves are, or you can identify the set at team preview or after a single turn of taking damage, and that’s okay because they are good moves and they are the best/only viable sets and the Poke uses them well and is consistently useful with them. Other Pokemon get a big viability boost with access to bluff/lure options that force your opponent to scout before making any confident moves or makes them readjust on the fly, putting them on their back foot. The second category there is enormously powerful, and we should take that into consideration when discussing things like Fire, Fighting, and Water coverage, which I am seeing coming into favor precisely for targeting specific Pokemon that would be natural switch-ins otherwise. Personally I am wary of giving CAPs the tools to counter their counters, especially since we are more than likely able to make a viable creation without that sort of trickery. Weavile is doing just fine with Arghonaut in the tier, while Astrolotl had to be nerfed for being un-counterable, to use two examples. I am also wary of the moveslot maintenance aspect of adding more than one viable coverage type when we need to be conscious of protecting Diamond Storm’s place in line when it comes to clicking buttons in play.
Won't go too much into Grass since it seems a lot of people are also pro-Grass.

I don't think a lot of coverage would compete too much with Diamond Storm, but if we're concerned about CAP 31 having too much coverage, then could CAP 31's good coverage simply be situational moves, similar to the use of special type Fire moves discussed earlier? The one I'd like to focus on most is Water coverage, more specifically in Flip Turn. Brambane mentioned U-Turn earlier as a potentially good utility move to solidify a pivot role, but what if CAP 31 had access to Flip Turn? It would have a good place on pivot sets and still provide useful utility otherwise. Flip Turn could be used to get out of bad matchups while still dealing decent damage to Equilibra and Landorus-T. However it would lead to awkward interactions with opposing CAP 31. Alternatively, Aqua Jet may play a good role in CAP 31's toolkit. It's high PP synergizes well with Diamond Storm, plus its low damage allows CAP 31 to threaten Equilibra but not completely counter it. Additionally, its high priority would be useful for finishing off opponents.

I think most that can be said about special Fire coverage has been said, it's a useful tool tool and doesn't tread too much on Diamond Storm. Though I am still a big fan of special Fire moves, I would like to elaborate more on ausma's points about potential physical Fire coverage and ask if Flare Blitz would be a reasonable coverage move? Given the situational nature of Pain Split and Water Absorb's health recovery requiring good predictions, Flare Blitz might be a balanced option considering the trade off of recoil damage in exchange for much stronger coverage.

- Earthquake
- Diamond Storm
- (Grass) / Flip Turn / Overheat or Flare Blitz
- Taunt / Aqua Jet / Corrosive Gas / Pain Split

With just the addition of these coverage moves, CAP 31 would be in a great place. Grass coverage and Taunt would provide the most consistent results and allow CAP 31 to be a good offensive core. Plus, with the potential of Aqua Jet, CAP 31 may be able to catch opponents off guard with a finishing blow. Meanwhile, Flip Turn and Corrosive Gas would transform CAP 31 into a very good pivot, being able to switch in on opposing water types while tanking hits, dealing big damage, nullifying items, and being able to switch out confidently with Flip Turn. Lastly, Fire coverage and Pain Split would also make CAP 31 a good offensive core that is better at taking on its typical threats in exchange for trading the reliability of grass coverage and the utility of Taunt or Corrosive Gas. It'd be able to sustain itself under the right circumstances with Water Absorb and Pain Split, creating a high risk high reward play style. Additionally, if CAP 31 were to have access to both Overheat and Flare Blitz, it'd be an interesting dilemma between consistent damage with recoil or diminishing damage with no recoil.

Lastly, I'd like to actually take a stance against Fighting type coverage. Anything that Fighting coverage moves can do, the others could do just as good, if not better. Both Fighting and Grass coverage compliment Diamond Storm since both types don't hit flying very hard, but Grasss also gives CAP 31 a better chance at threatening water types such as Slowbro, Slowking, Toxapex, or which has been agreed should be . Both Fire and Fighting hit Ferrothorn, Kartana, Corviknight, and Equilibra for super effective, but Fire also hits Buzzwole and hits Ferrothorn and Kartana for 4 times super effective. The only coverage that I could be convinced Fighting is better than is Water, simply because there are more viable physical Fighting moves than there are physical Water moves. Even then, the utility that Flip Turn or Aqua Jet could provide might outshine Close Combat and Body Press.
 
I've always been eager to talk about CAP31's coverage.

I've seen talk of Fighting coverage, and im a little on the fence about it. It does help us hit Ferrothorn and the less relevant Equilibra, but is really redundant otherwise. Fire type coverage hits those targets but with the added benefit of tackling Corviknight. Water coverage leaves us walled by Corv and Ferro but allows us to hit Landorus while still hitting Libra. Grass coverage hits other grounds not-named-lando, including other CAP31, while having the benefit of beating up Fini and Arghonaut. Granted, we don't really need coverage for Fini. It will likely get chunked by eq or diamond storm.

As for Utility, i think Glare or Thunder Wave are actually fantastic for CAP31. A set consisting of recovery/eq/dstorm/thunder wave could pose a threatening tank or offensive support set. Glare cripples checks such as Lando and Corv by disallowing them turns to do anything via para chance, disallows Kartana from being able to switch in as easily, and it allows CAP31 to be an effective teammate for pokemon who enjoy Kart and Weavile to be slowed down. It opens up "slow" breakers such Specs Lele or SD kart to go nuts since mons that would have had a winning matchup due to their Speed no longer have that advantage. For itself, being able to slow the opposition down could lead to CAP31 not needing to be as fast as it otherwise should be, leading to a bulkier, possibly more powerful CAP31.

As for Stealth Rock/Spikes, I'm sure we could find use for them. Assuming our moveslots are recovery/stab/diamond storm (which admittedly is not final, recovery isn't a given), we have a winning matchup vs. most of the tier's defoggers. Zapdos, Tornadus, and Astrolotl all run from Diamond storm. We would still have a sorry matchup against Corviknight and Landorus, however, but chances are we would have coverage to help us with that.

I also wanna talk about Spin. CAP31 has a decent matchup vs. Heatran and maybe Pyroak (this is a 1v1 and roak rarely uses rocks anyways) but other rockers such as argh, clefable (although it depends on our attack stat), and if CAP31 could force mons out it could likely get an opportunity to clear hazards and boost its own Speed. However, it takes up a valuable moveslot that could be used for coverage or a better form of boosting. Doubt it would be useful.
 

SHSP

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Gonna pop in with some quick thoughts, moreso on utility than coverage:

Taunt's fantastic, and it's been talked to death in this thread already. Just want to put my support behind it- it's probably not going to fit on every set, but I think it works really well with our design and our goals.

Hazards also strike me as a good addition, though maybe a bit low impact. Safe additions that probably don't move the needle too much in any specific direction.

I quite like Twave as another sort of utility option. It sets us quite a bit apart from some of our competition, helps us a great deal in the metagame against a number of threats, and at least to me also helps give us room to play with and click Diamond Storm. On the other hand, I'm not a fan of Toxic. It strikes me as too much, though I'm very close to just being ambivalent in general about it.

Coverage wise, Fire strikes me as being either potentially too much or not really relevant, depending on its strength. The Special based idea of it is very unique to me, though, and might strike a good balance. I prefer Grass over Water, and really like Fighting as well- but Zetalz's post basically covers most anything I'd say about those today. In general, though, I'd like to echo Zeta and Dex: I don't necessarily see this CAP mandating some sort of coverage: there's a lot of routes we can do that end up sticking to our existing combo and supporting it with utility or other means.
 
Been busy with other things (more than just that incident last night for those in the know) and I haven't really kept up or added anything significant, so I'll try to now just so more opinions are on the board.

Taunt is good, it compresses a lot of utility in one slot and can serve as a quasi-effective form of status immunuity against slower mons, which when combined with our Scald immunity leaves us well insulated versus status. This also helps flip some of our more awkward match-ups into ones where we have the clear advantage, mostly when we deny the opponent recovery, but also situations like forcing Slowbro to hard switch out instead of using Teleport.

Corrosive Gas is a much safer version of Knock Off that lets us make progress versus our answers, but doesn't immediately start breaking through them with a ~100 BP coverage move on that first hit. This is especially relevant for Dark-weak targets. Really the move is just worse overall but seeing as we want to be using our STAB and unique coverage effectively, having a way to wear down our checks via passive damage, ideally into 2HKO or even OHKO range after chip, is very helpful, and I feel Corrosive Gas is quite good at giving Diamond Storm room to breathe while also making the mon as a whole a lot stronger.

Toxic is fine if we are conservative with what tools we hand out to 31. It definitely helps us squeeze past things we would otherwise need DStorm to beat, which isn't ideal, but at the same time running EQ + Toxic and definitively not getting Knock Off or Electric/Ice coverage means we look terribad into a couple key mons, the worst of which being the Venomicons, two big meta threats you seriously do not want to give free turns to. I do feel this can work if we build around it but Toxic also feels like it could gatekeep a lot of other interesting moves simply by being generally applicable enough that, when given the right toolset, makes 31 just fine dropping DStorm and leaving the poorer MU to teammates it can enable. I'm probably thinking too far ahead for what it's worth, but essentially, I feel that it's ability to wear down and potentially 1v1 Pokemon that we otherwise need Diamond Storm to truly threaten makes it borderline anti-concept.

Thunder Wave is much safer than Toxic for the sole reason that, at worst, it just makes Pokemon slower, and if it beats us without needing Speed as a factor, it probably still beats us now. Not to mention it does nothing to Zapdos, LandoT, or Libra. I feel this does enough to accentuate our attacking combo by hindering offensive answers and straining some defensive ones to fit on our kit, and it provides both team support and a way to cripple switch-ins without explicitly bringing their health closer to zero.

I've mentioned this on Discord before but I feel like we have a lot of space to give ourselves strong utility (and more when we get to it), simply by virtue of our singular STAB causing Diamond Storm's inclusion on our set to be a no-brainer. I believe that having a bevy of potential options is good for us, both in terms of overall viability, but also in how we can explore ways to let Diamond Storm be more than a glorified Stone Edge.
 
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