CAP 31 - Part 6 - Defining Moves

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Some thoughts regarding utility and coverage moves:

In general, we have lots of room to give CAP 31 strong utility moves, since we haven't used a ton of our power budget yet and the nature of being mono-Ground with Diamond Storm means we'll usually have another two slots free to do whatever.

Taunt is the closest thing to the perfect utility move here, protecting us against Toxic, stopping Defog and hazards alike, and potentially flipping around a lot of matchups we aren't especially scared of defensively but would otherwise be hard-pressed to break, like bulky waters and Corviknight. Most of our ground-type competitors also don't get the move (only Colossoil gets it, of the potentially relevant competition). This also helps us quite a bit in lead matchups, which is important if we get:

Hazards seem like another great choice here, if a bit safe. We get quite a few opportunities to switch in between our Electric and Water immunities and what we threaten out offensively. Many of CAP 31's C&Cs are defensive in nature, so being able to capitalize on those free turns with hazards is quite useful. Most ground types get Stealth Rock and I think we should too; it's the most ubiquitous hazard for a reason. I want to give a special shout to Spikes though: a defense boost from Diamond Storm gives us effectively free turns as physical attackers switch out or struggle to muscle past us, and given how we threaten many common defoggers, being able to set up multiple layers of hazards is enticing. Sticky Web is also an interesting option, but given the prevalence of boots and flying types, it might end up being little more than a gimmick. Still, it's a powerful and unique move that would set us apart from other prevalent Ground types in the tier. Toxic Spikes are probably the weakest option, as far as hazards go, due to the sheer number of things immune to it, but we do match up well into a lot of those things; still, I doubt it'd be run much if CAP 31 had any other hazard option.

Rapid Spin and Defog are also interesting options, particularly the former due to its speed boost playing well with Diamond Storm encouraging us to stay in; we can be a bit greedier if we've already boosted our speed. Both are powerful utility move options in general, which we're looking for.

I'm indifferent on Corrosive Gas. While it doesn't suffer from being nearly as anti-concept as Knock Off, it might end up niche. Still, removing items from the likes of Zapdos and Tornadus means they have a harder time defogging our rocks, if we get those, and helps us be just a general nuisance with our non-attacking moves.

Not a fan of Toxic because of how well it lines up into things we want CAP 31 to be Diamond Storming. I do like that it hits Landorus-Therian, though, who otherwise gets to switch in, Knock Off our item, or Toxic us if we don't carry Taunt, and leave without too much issue unless CAP 31 is monstrously powerful - a neutral, intimidated BP 100 coverage move isn't going to do all that much to its defensive sets.

Perhaps a better option to hit Landorus-T, among many others, is Glare, which is pretty high on the power side but seems pro-concept, making things that normally have a good time against Diamond Storm think twice. It also helps us set up late-game sweeps for ourself or allies, depending on how the stats turn out. If Glare would be too much (and it could be), Thunder Wave is a safer option.

Heal Bell and Aromatherapy are unconventional, but could give CAP 31 a clerical niche, which is pretty unique in offensive mons and ground types. I'm not the biggest fan, since users of these moves are usually brought in and then switched out soon after, which conflicts with the kind of playstyle Diamond Storm encourages, but with the right stats and moves it could be workable. I'd be higher on them if we wanted to heal Scald burns or Thunder Wave paralysis we suffered, but we're immune to that one.

Pivoting moves (U-turn, Volt Switch, Flip Turn, Parting Shot, Teleport) I think are anti-concept, since we can usually just click those instead of worrying about Diamond Storm. Especially Volt Switch, since it doubles as Electric coverage. They're also probably a lot.

As far as coverage goes:

Fire is the strongest type coverage we can get with Earthquake and Diamond Storm, hitting any number of thorns in CAP 31's side like Ferrothorn, Corviknight, and Equilibra. Make it too powerful, though, and we might see more sets dropping Diamond Storm in exchange for Fire + Ground coverage. Flare Blitz could be too powerful, depending on stats; though Diamond Storm would maintain a niche of hitting Zapdos and Torn-T and boosting Defense, both of which are great, we might see it dropped from quite a few more sets. More pro-concept is a weaker physical fire move in the 65-85 BP range (between Fire Fang and Blaze Kick), which answer Ferrothorn and Equilibra without making Diamond Storm unnecessary. Flame Charge is cute, but isn't really powerful enough to be worthwhile coverage, as it's barely stronger than Earthquake against Ferrothorn and Kartana and doesn't do that much to Libra.
A perhaps more unique option, and my personal favorite, is powerful special fire coverage, as suggested by spoo. Depending what the C&C list we want to maintain looks like, we can choose particular moves: a non-STAB physical attacker's Overheat can kill a Corviknight that switches in on Diamond Storm with significant chip or truly mixed attacking stats, but isn't spammable, while Fire Blast can potentially just muscle through pokemon like Libra and Corviknight without much support.

Fighting moves are also in a pretty good place for us, mostly used against Libra, Ferrothorn and Kartana. While Fire moves do this better, Fighting still complements our coverage well, and is less of a risk of overshadowing Diamond Storm because it still can't hit Flying (or Bug) types well. Body Press could be decent, depending on our Defense stat, but it's unlikely to be worth much before a boost, so it's dubious whether it'd be run over other strong moves of the type if CAP 31 gets any. It's certainly pro-concept, though.

Water coverage would also be fairly useful, hitting Landorus-T in particular harder than anything else we could pick (given Ice coverage being anti-concept.) It also hits Equilibra and uh, Colossoil and Rotom-H? Still, it helps us out against two of the things our STAB + Rock combination has the most trouble against. Crabhammer having a 1/8 to annihlate Landorus-T through intimidate is pretty neat, and if I tell myself I'm not saying that just because I think crabs are cool maybe I'll believe it one day. Powerful special water coverage could also be interesting to check Lando-T in particular, though I'd stay away from Scald because of its probable overlap with Diamond Storm and relatively low offensive muscle as a coverage move coming from an off-attacking stat with 80 BP.

Grass coverage also snags some relevant targets, and the type has powerful physical moves, but it feels for sure the weakest of the four. Its biggest strength is nailing bulky waters, turning a matchup that's slightly favored or a standoff into one that's very favored, but we could run utility moves like Taunt and hazards that let us be useful even in the face of walls instead.

In general, I doubt we need insane coverage, given our ground STAB + Diamond Storm combo, but a strong Fire move would add a lot of offensive power, allowing CAP 31 to blow through would-be checks, while other types, particularly Fighting and Water, are problem-solvers, allowing it to beat a few of its answers.

(This is my first post here on CAP and oops, I wrote a 4am essay. If I did something wrong, let me know so I can fix it in the future!)
 
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With First Impression aside, since that move has way more applications than just Bug coverage, the main issue with Bug is that the historic threats you would run Ground/Rock/Bug coverage for just aren't relevant. Of the Grass-types it would hit for decent damage, its just Rillaboom at the moment. There aren't the Celebi and Latios floating around like in older gens, nor is there a major Dark-type threat that isn't already hit hard by QuakeEdge. In theory you could use like Megahorn for Slowbro, but at that rate Grass coverage makes more sense for us.

As for First Impression itself, I guess being Ground-type that is able to force out Weavile and Rillaboom is cool, but that seems like it would fit as a weird tech option or if something like AV or 3 Attacks would make sense on the mon.
I like tech options lol. And it seems like forcing rillaboom out rather than letting it blast through your team is a pretty sweet option to have. Personally I hope this moves makes it into consideration
 

Brambane

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Rillaboom is a less prominent threat in CAP; most common structures are going to converge on mons like Pyroak, Venomicon, Ferrothorn, Tornadus-T, and other things that make Rillaboom an inconsistent pick. Albeit, the mon still 100% has pop off potential, the bigger fish here is Weavile.

I am going to say that First Impression is a very weird move in this setting since it isn't really coverage, it falls more in the realm of utility. In that context, the "utility" it provides is allowing CAP31 to force out Weavile either on a double-switch, slow pivot, or revenge-kill. This gives a slower stat spread an immediately threatening form of speed control for one of the best offensive threats in the meta, which is not only very cool but completely removed from anything else any Ground-type can do. Unfortunately the typing is just super unfavorable into a lot of the other fast threats, and being only able to be used on the first turn also really stings.

BUT, I think there is a kernel of value in the idea of First Impression that overlaps with Fighting coverage: Mach Punch. This move I think makes a lot of sense while applying similar utility as First Impression. Slow spreads would still have immediate speed control for Weavile, it is piss weak but feasible coverage for Equilibra, and you could probably do some cheeky stuff with EQ into Mach Punch vs a mon like Kartana. It sort of reminds me of that NP Vacuum Wave Mew set that pops up once in a blue moon.

Mach Punch is ridiculously specific in its application, but that seems to be the general theme of coverage this time around. The overall solid combination QuakeEdge provides combined with Water Absorb, in addition to wanting to preserve Diamond Storm on movesets, makes most coverage options fall more into the category of tech against specific threats. As such, I am readjusting my view on coverage in the lens that these moves will be incredibly niche and 100% "optional" to the success of the mon; these moves are to provide building flexibility by making CAP31 able to cover and lure very specific threats when the need calls. Tech and lures can sometimes feel very frustrating to play against, but in the spirit of not being afraid to take risks, this feels like a safe place to push our limits. Also, tech is cool and exciting to see work in a tournament setting; watching someone pull off a Sand Tomb Scizor trap or Rebound Toxic onto Lando-T with Colossoil is hype. I am all here for stuff like Grass, special Fire, and some Fighting coverage.
 

dex

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I definitely am a fan of grass/water coverage of varying power levels. I think both can trend towards the stronger side given their limited application. I think Fighting coverage is a tad strong but still workable, but weaker options like Body Press probably won't see use. I'm also a fan of Fire-type coverage explicitly for Ferrothorn; this can be one of any number of Fire-type moves, but it should be strong enough to at least threaten a 2HKO through Leech Seed.

Taunt and Stealth Rock / Spikes are in my opinion the best options for utility given that they have zero chance of overrunning Diamond Storm and are very generally useful, increasing CAP 31's ability to compete with other Ground-types.

I also agree with the sentiment that pivoting moves are a no-go; however, I do think one pivoting move hold actual interest: Teleport. We haven't seen a tankier build use Teleport literally ever, and I think with Diamond Storm's boost and potential access to recovery, Teleport actually synergizes nicely with Diamond Storm, something the other pivoting moves do not do. Definitely isn't required-worthy by any means, but I do think there is some interesting interaction there.
 
1) What sort of archetypes could CAP 31 fulfill when given access to utility moves? How do common utility moves like Stealth Rock, Taunt, and Knock Off synergize with Diamond Storm?

2) What limits should be put in place for our coverage? Are there certain attacking types that would be too much? Is there any inherent need for strong coverage, or would that potentially overshadow Diamond Storm?
1. I don't really like the idea of being a utility heavy mon. Our utility in conversations up to this point has been purely in wall breaking and laughing in the face of anything that doesn't resist EdgeQuake. I'd be for Taunt in a vacuum though, as it does synergize really well with our desire to stay in as long as possible through denying Toxic and Haze. My main concern with Knock Off is that I think we'd rather just hit things for damage in most contexts, and that Knock Off could lead to us to forgo a more offensive set in favor of being a more disruptive utility presence. Stealth Rock just seems to be a bit of a waste on 31 because of our goal to stay in on as many mons as possible and I feel we would in practice rather use something that helps us with a specific matchup or improves our longevity as opposed to setting up hazards for ourselves. We could use Rocks but in all honesty, I think we don't need it and it might cause problems with other sets later.

2. NO Electric or Ice, as discussed. As far as coverage goes, I really don't think we should have Fighting coverage either. I worry that having coverage for Dark types (Which is the only notable advantage other than Normal) would be just a few too many types we kinda just deny switch ins. We already hit every type in the game for neutral, and its not like we're going to be lacking in power enough that we need something more to be a viable offensive threat. I really don't think we need strong coverage at all to be honest. I think if we're going to give ourselves a strong option for coverage, we really really need it to be justified in the context of being needed as a compliment to EdgeQuake that won't over shine either move. What mons do we need to beat that EQ and Storm can't cover? That's the place to start with coverage.
 

Rabia

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Alright, here's our updated required/optional moves list:

Required Moves: Diamond Storm, at least one of (Earthquake/High Horsepower/Earth Power)
Optional Moves: One of (Milk Drink/Soft-Boiled/Recover/Slack Off), Pain Split, Grass-type coverage, Overheat, Taunt, Thunder Wave

I'm disallowing Toxic
. It has the same issues as Knock Off in that it is functionally similar to Knock Off in how it works versus out checks and counters (the non-Steel-type ones) and runs a good risk of making Diamond Storm not worth our time.

Additions are in blue. When talking about coverage options, Grass got the most support by far; it gives us a bit more leverage against Ground-types while not outright denying all of our switch-ins safety. Overheat got a fair bit of support too for reasons spoo mentioned; although it may not be overly practical, it has a few interesting interactions that make it worth considering. Taunt of course received a ton of support and you can read through previous posts to see why. Thunder Wave picked up a lot more traction lately as a tamer version of Toxic in some ways; it still cripples some of our checks and potentially gives us more room to fish for Diamond Storm boosts while not risking Rock-type coverage being invalidated on the whole.

Water-type coverage ultimately was just deemed outclassed by Grass. Fighting-type coverage had a bit of support but not the extent to which I'd like to see; perhaps we revisit it down the line. Corrosive Gas and entry hazards didn't feel as high impact to where I felt comfortable adding them to either section.

---

Boosting moves and priority moves are next. We have boosting somewhat built into our kit naturally with Diamond Storm, but reliable boosting is an entirely different story, especially considering our really good EdgeQuake coverage. Priority moves I'm lobbing in with boosting because they don't seem too important overall, but some moves got mentioned in the coverage stage, so they may be worth our time.

1) How do reliable stat-boosting moves impact our ability to safely fish for Diamond Storm buffs? Is it preferable for us to dedicate to stronger moves like Swords Dance that give us a ton more offensive pressure off that bat? Or, are options like Bulk Up and Coil preferable to compensate for Diamond Storm's unreliable boost?

2) How useful is Speed boosting, and how does it potentially interact with Diamond Storm when we look into our matchup against common revenge killers? Is it anti-concept?

3) How practical are priority moves for us? Is it a matter of giving us more overall coverage or simply more utility in matchups where wallbreaking is harder?

48 hour deadline again, will revisit beforehand if necessary to disallow something or prompt you guys further if there's really strong discussion about something!
 

snake_rattler

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I think we should build CAP31 in a way such that it'll run Earthquake + Diamond Storm, and then have pretty good flexibility in its last two slots. I think this flexibility in what CAP31 can run is a good way to "compensate" for having only one STAB move (though not the only way still available to us).

Taunt is an excellent option that's been propped up a lot in the thread so far, sealing the deal on passive Pokemon. It also heavily differentiates us from other Ground-types in the metagame - the only Ground-types that do have Taunt are Colossoil, Fidgit, and Smokomodo, and I don't think I've really ever seen them run the move in Gen 8. In a similar vein, I see CAP31 having the ability to run Substitute quite well, especially in combination with Diamond Storm's defense boosts. Taunt is probably the better of the two, though.

Power Whip and Strong Special Fire-type Coverage fit the bill for flexibility - they have good use cases, aren't required for CAP31 to function, and aren't obviously stronger than other utility options presented so far. Neither of them have a shot at replacing Diamond Storm because Ground + Grass coverage doesn't cover enough, and Special Fire-type coverage should inherently be a tech option. I would rather not see Physical Fire-type coverage, as that actually has a case to replace Diamond Storm. Water-type coverage and Fighting-type coverage seem decent, but aren't as compelling as Power Whip and special Fire-type coverage

I've seen Thunder Wave brought up a few times in the thread, but I'm pondering Glare as an option. CAP31 could essentially play a game of spreading paralysis and then cleaning up late-game with EQ + Diamond Storm. Its last slot could be protecting itself with Taunt or Substitute, potentially having a recovery move, or having the tech options like Power Whip to break through Slowbro. I feel like it's a functional build, but again, it's obviously strong. Glare might be the strongest option in the thread so far, so it should be handled with care.

I'm against Knock Off and Toxic at this point. Although Diamond Storm provides more immediate damage against Flying-types, simply pressuring them with these moves endangers Diamond Storm's place on CAP31's movesets. For example, I could see Earthquake / Knock Off / Taunt / Recover being a functional moveset, which is not what we want.

--- next section because Rabia sniped me rudely ---

1) How do reliable stat-boosting moves impact our ability to safely fish for Diamond Storm buffs? Is it preferable for us to dedicate to stronger moves like Swords Dance that give us a ton more offensive pressure off that bat? Or, are options like Bulk Up and Coil preferable to compensate for Diamond Storm's unreliable boost?
If we're going to boost, it should be with Swords Dance. Coil and Bulk Up wouldn't outright replace Diamond Storm solely for their Defense-boosting effect, but I still don't think they make the most sense. I think CAP31 could viably run SubSD and turn the tables in some of its checks, which is neat. I don't think boosting should be required though because there are routes that don't need it.

2) How useful is Speed boosting, and how does it potentially interact with Diamond Storm when we look into our matchup against common revenge killers? Is it anti-concept?
I don't see moves like Agility really working on CAP31 unless CAP31 has some way of snowballing (which it does not have at this point). Dragon Dance would be interesting though, given how Diamond Storm's Defense boosts somewhat mitigate priority. It's a very different route for this Pokemon than what's been conceived so far, though.

3) How practical are priority moves for us? Is it a matter of giving us more overall coverage or simply more utility in matchups where wallbreaking is harder?
I don't see priority being impactful enough on CAP31 to necessitate it as a defining move. I think these moves should be revisited in the movesets stage.
 
Alright, here's our updated required/optional moves list:

1) How do reliable stat-boosting moves impact our ability to safely fish for Diamond Storm buffs? Is it preferable for us to dedicate to stronger moves like Swords Dance that give us a ton more offensive pressure off that bat? Or, are options like Bulk Up and Coil preferable to compensate for Diamond Storm's unreliable boost?
I agree with snake_rattler that Swords Dance is the best option. Doesn't conflict with Diamond Storm but still synergizes with the move. However, I would like to bring up an untraditional boosting move. The addition of Growth could give CAP 31 a niche on sun teams. The attack boost synergizes well with Diamond Storm and the special attack boost could go well with Overheat. Considering that CAP 31 doesn't have too many answers to Grass types besides Overheat and Growth's boost becomes +2 to both attack and special attack in the sun, it would synergize well with Jumbao as a check for Flying types and it'd synergize well with Torkoal as a check for Water types.

I don't see moves like Agility really working on CAP31 unless CAP31 has some way of snowballing (which it does not have at this point). Dragon Dance would be interesting though, given how Diamond Storm's Defense boosts somewhat mitigate priority. It's a very different route for this Pokemon than what's been conceived so far, though.
If CAP 31 is going to have Glare or Thunder Wave, I think a speed boosting move would be redundant. I like the idea of CAP 31 spreading paralysis early game and cleaning up later with Diamond Storm and Earthquake, but a role like this would likely already be fast enough to out speed most paralyzed opponents.

On that note, I personally prefer Thunder Wave over Glare. As Rabia said, CAP 31 having Grass type coverage over other coverage moves gives it leverage against Ground types but doesn't completely counter them. Glare may be too strong against opposing Ground types, while Thunder Wave would let opposing Ground types switch in with confidence

Alright, here's our updated required/optional moves list:

3) How practical are priority moves for us? Is it a matter of giving us more overall coverage or simply more utility in matchups where wallbreaking is harder?
Again, if CAP 31 is going to have Thunder Wave, then priority moves would be kind of redundant. Before we make our minds up on boosting moves or priority moves, we should first decide if Thunder wave is a defining move or not. I used to be a fan of Shadow Sneak, but the only priority move that I feel would compliment CAP 31 is maybe Fake Out, since it would let CAP 31 switch-in easier against opposing Ice types and Water types with Ice coverage. I'm not sold on Fake Out right now though, and would love to hear someone else's thoughts on it.

Also,

Edit: Didn't mean to add "Also," at the end.
 

Rabia

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Small update: I'm changing Overheat to encompass special Fire-type coverage in general. Despite Overheat being the one to garner the most traction, I think it makes more sense to allow for other options like Fire Blast as well. Keep this in mind going forward---next update post will account for this!
 

Brambane

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The only priority moves I would consider is Mach Punch, for reasons I already mentioned. Everything else seems just too situational, and Mach Punch is already situational in nature. Extreme Speed seems cool on paper but I worry about it displacing Diamond Storm.

I think boosting is one of those things that is going to also greatly fall under the discretion of the stats leader. All of the following make a lot of justifiable sense based on the spread submitted:
  • Bulk Up
  • Swords Dance
  • Dragon Dance
  • Shift Gear
  • Shell Smash
  • Rock Polish (+Swords Dance)
  • Belly Drum
BULK UP: Diamond Storm already has good synergy with special bulk, and so does Bulk Up. It does make the Defense Boost a bit redundant, but you do have the potential to ramp your Defense to absurd levels in two turns. That is kind of cool.

SWORDS DANCE: Nothing too exciting to note here, the bread and butter of Attack boosting.

DRAGON DANCE: Pretty versatile in its application, which makes this move extremely cool. You could go for a fast build that can outpace common Scarfers after a DD, a bulky build that focuses on trying to squeeze in two DDs with the Defense boost from Diamond Storm, or an EXTREMELY slow build that outpaces other slow threats after a boost, which allows you to get away with some monstrous base Attack. Very, very cool, an exciting move for the stats stage.

SHIFT GEAR: Everything I said for Dragon Dance applies here, but this move is more insane. The main appeal of Shift Gear is you can hit some wild Speed without much investment; this move is perfect if you want CAP31 to focus on Attack and bulk with its EVs without sacrificing your endgame cleaning potential.

SHELL SMASH: Extremely crackhead, this one is hard to assess because there are a lot of really shitty smashers that undersell its potency. Lowering your Defense with one move to boost it back with another is clear synergy. Balancing this move seems like a challenge, but I think with some restraint in the stats stage it would be feasible. The main thing to note that is if you are making a spread specifically for Shell Smash, I don't see a spread super strong in other aspects. This could narrow CAP31's scope a fair bit.

ROCK POLISH: Probably works best in the context of a double dancer, but if your Attack is high enough maybe you run an old school cleaner like Agility Metagross (what a throwback!) I actually prefer the non-double dancing option, mostly because it's reviving an old strategy but also encourages you to go really high with our base Attack. That is exciting to explore.

BELLY DRUM: Water Absorb and Ground-typing means there are likely a lot of things that are just going to let us Belly Drum in their face. Getting +2 Defense makes you less likely to get killed at 50%/75% HP. If we can work around the Cawmodore stigma, this move makes a lot of sense to me. But I am admittedly less excited about it; worth mentioning because of how well we are already set up to execute it, especially with our coverage leaving room for other options. There is something dangerously spicy about a mon that viably runs Belly Drum with Pain Split, Recover, or Thunder Wave.
 
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Zetalz

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Swords Dance is the best option available no doubt about that, getting your Atk boosts faster is crucial vs annoying mon into 31 like lando, corv, buzzer etc., and just synergizes very well with other well-garnered utility like Taunt. Good 'ol reliable.

Bulk Up (and Coil by extension) are pretty weak in comparison to other set-ups won't deny that, and while the Defense boosting may seem redundant I do think there is one specific interaction where BU shines, and that's into Zera... depending on stats. If a spread with lower base physdef wins out it could struggle into Zera without any Dstorm boosts so this insulates that matchup a bit, but again very hyper-specific and personally I don't think would be that great in most other scenarios where more Atk (or speed) could come in.

Not going to lie not really a fan of Dragon Dance at the moment. It's this weird direction of simultaneously being quite strong but also not very interactive with the rest of the toolkit we've been hashing out for 31. The interaction of fast Dstorms is cool will not deny that, but it is worth considering DD (and by extension more broken shit like Shift Gear and The Smasher) will likely cause a fair hit to total BSR going into stats. This is probably my biggest hang-up with DD atm, since 31 is competing with other Ground absolute statsticks in Lando and Chomper. It is very much a subjective take but I personally value having more freedom in stats, especially considering we're still not short a fantastic set-up option in SD that synergizes with 31's build quite well as is.

Other set-up (Shell Smash, Shift Gear, Agility) are just not it chief. Smasher and Shifter have it even worse than DD with stat limitations and just take all the focus off the project off of Dstorm and onto them, hard no. Agility is kinda neat, I would prefer it over DD for sure since it's not as inherently limiting but dualdance sets are less rewarding or useful in the long run than some consistently good utility options imo. Could take it over leave it, leaning nah.


Not much to say about Priority that hasn't been said, it's extremely situational and will really only affect 1 or 2 matchups at the absolute most. Mach Punch is incredibly funny but in practice I doubt it would ever be used that much if at all (real Smoko moment). Sucker is probably the most applicable to just have a consistent tech into things like Pult or weakened Zera, if any priority was to be tacked on that'd probably be the only thing I'd reasonably toss in and expect to be used.
 
1) How do reliable stat-boosting moves impact our ability to safely fish for Diamond Storm buffs? Is it preferable for us to dedicate to stronger moves like Swords Dance that give us a ton more offensive pressure off that bat? Or, are options like Bulk Up and Coil preferable to compensate for Diamond Storm's unreliable boost?
That's a tough question: do we want to more occasions to fish for Diamond Storm's boost or do we want to immediately threaten the opponent? Ultimately, the more I think of the more I see Diamond Storm as a kind-of Moxie boost: you want to get it to snowball but you are not reliant on it to function, especially given it's only 8 PP.

It will of course depend of your spread but right now, if I have to choose between getting a Sword Dance or Bulk Up, I don't see many arguments to choose the latter. At +2 we have a pretty nice coverage just with two moves and then we can get to fish our +2 Def while hitting hard. I would rather get to +2/+2 than to +1/+3. Imo, Swords Dance is just better than Bulk Up / Coil and doesn't mess with our threat list.

2) How useful is Speed boosting, and how does it potentially interact with Diamond Storm when we look into our matchup against common revenge killers? Is it anti-concept?
In general, I think Speed is very important to our concept as it can really turns some matchups around. But do we specifically need speed boosting? My favorite option here is Dragon Dance: we need the power and Agility doesn't provide that. Double boosting sets seem cool tho but I am not sure we can realistically pull it of: Landorus-T seem perfect for that and it's not a common set.

Dragon Dance is a strong move but between our very competitive niche and our checks which (unless we get some obscene stats) are relatively unfazed even at +1, I don't see it being too big of a dent on our power budget. As others explained, it gives many possibilities for the stat stages: we can either this speed to get the jump on all Landorus-T, get above our would-be revenge killers etc... but we will have the choice on what we want to do.

Which brings me to Shell Smash and Shift Gear. They are just too centralizing. The applications of cancelling the Def drops of Shell Smash with Diamond Storm seems fun but outside of that, these are very strong moves on any Pokemon and it will heavily restrict us later on. +2 Speed with any kind of attack boost just needs to be heavily addressed with our stats and it may force us into set-up sweeping. Honestly it could work with Shift Gear but idk, I feel we will tiptoe around it and stifle the creativity we could have otherwise in the stats stage.
 
Not a big fan of priority moves. Seems like we would only be getting them just for the sake of getting them and they don't really have synergy with Diamond Storm. I doubt most of them would even be good on CAP 31, since there aren't any priority moves it can get STAB off of, aside from Mach Punch, which I am extremely against because it completely deletes any usefulness Diamond Storm's defense boosts have (I am of course referring to Weavile here).

Anything that boosts Defense (Bulk Up, Coil, Acid Armor, Cotton Guard, Cosmic Power, etc.) I don't like. We could still run Diamond Storm alongside it for coverage, but the Defense boosts it gets from Diamond Storm will not benefit it, since it's only a 50% chance. Again, we could still use Diamond Storm along with it, but at that point all Diamond Storm is is a more accurate Stone Edge, when there's more to the move than that, and other moves that boost Defense completely abandon the defense boosting aspect of Diamond Storm, which, even though it's only 5 PP and a 50% chance, still doesn't seem super pro concept to me.

Speed boosting moves (Dragon Dance, Agility, Shift Gear, etc.) I also feel could take away from Diamond Storm's defense boosting aspect, since speed boosting makes CAP 31 harder to revenge kill, limiting the likelihood it will be taking physical attacks from offensive Pokemon. Weavile still has Ice Shard, but it still doesn't feel very pro concept to me anyway.

Regarding Belly Drum: Absolutely not. We don't need another Cawmodore.

Really the only boosting move I would consider is Swords Dance, and even then I am still 60/40 on it, in slight favor of not getting it. I think whether or not it should get it heavily depends on our stats. It is a move that can get very out of hand on certain Pokemon, and I feel very cautious about giving another Pokemon Swords Dance after Epilogue. I also think that not getting Swords Dance could potentially allow for more moveset flexibility and prevent us from having 4MSS, since I highly doubt it would ever not be running Swords Dance if it were to get it. That being said though, it is again something that could potentially be really nice for weaker stat spreads, and I think it should absolutely be put in Optional, and that deciding the fate of Swords Dance now is just a bad idea.

The only other boosting move I would potentially consider is Amnesia, because it allows it to become bulkier on the other side of the spectrum and certainly has good synergy with Diamond Storm. I feel as though it might be too weak to be worth using, but I think it is certainly worth considering.
 
Priority is not necessary. No STAB, and unless you're hitting something super effective, will just never do as much damage as you need it to. And if we're talking Mach Punch for coverage, I feel like there's multiple better fighting moves to pick from. CAP31 and Weavile probably don't have any business switching into each other anyway?

As far as boosting goes, I'm intrigued. I feel like as far as our concept goes diamond storm's boost should be the boost we focus on. But I also feel as though because it is only a 50% chance, and also that it's only 8pp, it can't be spammed as much as we think it should. Maybe we need another boost for more moves to click? Like if you swords dance on switch, then you proc diamond storm's boost before getting attacked by the opponent. But if it's reliant on outspeeding to really make a difference, would dragon dance be the better option? Do we then end up shifting gears to making a dragon dancer instead of a diamond stormer? Maybe that's what it takes to make a monster that truly appreciates the move diamond storm. This is something we should keep open.
 

Rabia

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Really the only boosting move I would consider is Swords Dance, and even then I am still 60/40 on it, in slight favor of not getting it. I think whether or not it should get it heavily depends on our stats. It is a move that can get very out of hand on certain Pokemon, and I feel very cautious about giving another Pokemon Swords Dance after Epilogue. I also think that not getting Swords Dance could potentially allow for more moveset flexibility and prevent us from having 4MSS, since I highly doubt it would ever not be running Swords Dance if it were to get it. That being said though, it is again something that could potentially be really nice for weaker stat spreads, and I think it should absolutely be put in Optional, and that deciding the fate of Swords Dance now is just a bad idea.
Just as a FTR, the reason we're talking about Swords Dance now is because Defining Moves sets the stage for Stats. This stage's entire purpose is to help stat spread submitters and the Stats TLT out by giving a better idea of our offensive profile and limitations that should be in place. As a reader, your argument against Swords Dance seems to work entirely against how this process works :x

Enjoying the discussions overall, though, keep it up
 

ausma

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I think this is where things get really interesting. I can see people viewing boosting as intrinsically anti-concept considering that would mean competing with Diamond Storm's boosts, but I massively disagree. The only way a boosting move, in the context of CAP 31, becomes anti-concept is if it is either redundant with it and/or mitigates its merits, or if it re-centers the process around itself.

Before I talk about the boosting moves I am a fan of, I'd like to first address the ones I'm against or don't like as much.

Moves that are redundant and/or downplay Diamond Storm are Iron Defense, Curse, Coil, Bulk Up, with an honorable mention to Cosmic Power. These moves are certainly fine and balanced options, but their defense boosts, which are defining to their appeal, make them wholly redundant with Diamond Storm as opposed to being anything consistently worth exploring relative to CAP 31. Cosmic Power I give a soft mention to because the Special Defense boost in tandem with CAP 31's overall defensive profile could be worth thinking about, but stacking defense boosts with Diamond Storm does reduce its overall value compared to other users and doesn't really address the conundrum that offensive boosting does.

The main boosting move that would re-center the process around itself is Shell Smash. Shell Smash's highly explosive nature makes it a very fun option on paper, without a doubt. However, I believe it's this volatility alongside its drawbacks that make me feel very passionately against it. Shell Smash, for one, streamlines the process almost entirely around a fast, offensive setup sweeper with Diamond Storm's secondary effect being turned more into a tool to repair its defense as opposed to being a way to differentiate its gameplan with boosting. Even if you argue Diamond Storm's defense boost being more of a repair tool as pro-concept, not only does it not account for its cut Special Defense, but its sheer strength as a boosting move by itself would heavily gear the rest of the process around balancing Shell Smash and really downplay the rest of the process, where we've thought and discussed extensively about its defensive profile. Belly Drum is also a boosting move that re-centers the process but is much less consistent and will either have to have a lot of what's left of the process based around making it even a little worthwhile, or will just be dismissed altogether in the teambuilder given its major downside considering CAP 31's concept. Considering that and how we needed to base the entirety of a CAP process around making it a strong option, I greatly dislike it as well.

Rock Polish and Agility are fine, don't coincide with Diamond Storm, and are most certainly balanced, but my issue is: what exactly do these moves do for CAP 31 that would make them worth a moveslot? We're already very strapped for them, and if they, as boosting options, don't really aid in CAP 31's overall damage output and/or augment its defensive utility, they aren't really going to do much for CAP 31's winning power that I feel would make them worth running. This isn't anything against speed boosting as a whole because I think boosting CAP 31's speed will always be good, and is always fantastic as a means to win against offense. However, a boosting move exclusively boosting speed isn't going to do a lot for us other than let CAP 31 clean up heavily chipped offensive structures, which is somewhat limited in application and may not be of much appeal considering CAP 31's moveset situation.

_______

In general, I feel offensive boosting is absolutely pro-concept and there are a few reasons for this. Though, the primary one is that it makes CAP 31's already existing winning potential far more practical on a game-to-game basis against standard walls, while not taking away from the attributes that make Diamond Storm a strong complement to a sweeper, packing the defense boosts to accumulate leverage in taking hits as it deals damage, and being effectively a more accurate Stone Edge in one. Diamond Storm, essentially, has the profile to be a perfect pairing with a sweeping mono-Ground-type and there's really no incentive to drop it. Diamond Storm's slot is not the issue here.

Dragon Dance and Shift Gear are my favorite options, but potentially not the most efficient in regards to CAP 31's design. While not as immediately threatening as Swords Dance has the potential to be, these moves take the benefits of speed boosting of Rock Polish/Agility that we know exist, and combines them with the appeal of offensive boosting relative to CAP 31. However, my absolute favorite part of these moves is that they give CAP 31 extreme flexibility in set options. Bulky Dragon Dance, for example, is a very legitimate strategy on several Pokemon that have strong defensive profiles and longevity options, such as Dragonite and Mega Altaria, but there most certainly is merit in offensive Dragon Dance/Shift Gear sets as well, especially if we opt for coverage options. Diamond Storm, moreover, massively complements these moves and both all-out and bulkier setup routes, augmenting its overall bulk, which lets both sets take more hits and accrue more boosts. That being said, there may be more incentive to opt for 50% recovery if we want to further explore Dragon Dance and Shift Gear, though, as these are moves that warrant being used several more times in comparison to Swords Dance due to needing several boosts to match Swords Dance's threat level. Though, unlike Swords Dance, these two moves snowball in a much more potent fashion, letting CAP 31 blow down offenses much more decisively with enough speed boosts. Potentially, recovery may not be as necessary with enough defense boosts.

Speaking of which, Swords Dance is much like Dragon Dance and Shift Gear in that it leverages both bulky and all-out offensive sets, but it trades speed boosts for immediate threat potential, which has a lot of merit as well. I think Swords Dance is a very good option and worth having, as many people have explained in depth already. It pairs fantastically with CAP 31's offensive design, complements Diamond Storm very well as a coverage/extra boosting option, and packs quite strong and versatile set potential.

In general, I think we could possibly let CAP 31 have both Swords Dance and Dragon Dance considering both moves give CAP 31 good winning potential with similar set structures, but with different focuses. When it comes to the movepool there's a lot of leverage to make set options opportune, and CAP 31's unique situation especially calls for that, imo, considering it's already being designed around having two moveslots taken at all times. Shift Gear's added Speed boost, though, makes me feel more on board if it is CAP 31's only boosting option, but I think Diamond Storm not being STAB could lead to an argument deeming otherwise.

edit: I support Mach Punch too, especially with Swords Dance!!
 
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Rabia

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Based on current discussions, Dragon Dance and Swords Dance are most on my radar given the support they've received. Shift Gear is in the back of my mind too because of its similarities to Dragon Dance.

I'm formally disallowing Shell Smash and Belly Drum going forward because everyone seems to agree that they'd essentially redefine this process entirely.

Going forward, I want to see more discussion about Dragon Dance, Swords Dance, and Shift Gear; other options are still of course great to bring up, but my focus is currently on those previously mentioned three.
 

Korski

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1) How do reliable stat-boosting moves impact our ability to safely fish for Diamond Storm buffs? Is it preferable for us to dedicate to stronger moves like Swords Dance that give us a ton more offensive pressure off that bat? Or, are options like Bulk Up and Coil preferable to compensate for Diamond Storm's unreliable boost?
I think we are walking a very fine line here by even considering moves like Swords Dance, Dragon Dance, and Shift Gear. For each of these moves added to the movepool, you take more and more away from Diamond Storm as a factor in the CAP's design. With all of these other moves like Stealth Rock, Taunt, Fire lures, and Thunder Wave (for hax fishing?) being thrown around, I am struggling to imagine a scenario where CAP31 would ever even click Diamond Storm if it has multiple utility options and reliable stat-boosting moves to set up first. At that point it really is just a move you use when the moves you really want to use won't work, with a cute perk tacked on the end sometimes. Diamond Storm is a setup move, and while not a great one, it is the one you guys chose to design the entire Pokemon around, and I am not seeing any real connection being made to that concept in these posts beyond "it would be great and strong to have +2 Def and also have Dragon Dance." I agree, but when do you anticipate having +2 Def in that case?
I think this is where things get really interesting. I can see people viewing boosting as intrinsically anti-concept considering that would mean competing with Diamond Storm, but I massively disagree. The only way a boosting move, in the context of CAP 31, becomes anti-concept is if it is either redundant with it, or if it re-centers the process around itself. [emphasis added]

...

In general, I feel offensive boosting is absolutely pro-concept and there are a few reasons for this. Though, the primary one is that it makes CAP 31's already existing winning potential far more practical on a game-to-game basis against standard walls, while not taking away from the attributes that make Diamond Storm a strong complement to a sweeper, packing the defense boosts to accumulate leverage in taking hits as it deals damage, and being effectively a more accurate Stone Edge in one. Diamond Storm, essentially, has the profile to be a perfect pairing with a sweeping mono-Ground-type and there's really no incentive to drop it. Diamond Storm's slot is not the issue here.
Not trying to single you out, ausma, but this is sort of exactly what I mean and it encapsulates a lot of what I have seen in this part of the thread. The concept here appears to have shifted to "so long as this move does not push Diamond Storm completely off the moveset, it is pro-concept," and I think we can be a little more focused than that. The mono-Ground typing and careful addition of targeted coverage like Grass and special Fire (ugh but w/e) ensure Diamond Storm's spot in the moveset, that's fine. These boosting moves are not a threat to EdgeQuake coverage, because they are not attacking moves, that is not the issue here.

Maybe the issue here is the concept, I get that it's not like a super inspiring move, but I am trying. But I'd like to ask for some clarification: when did this CAP start going after walls? Which targets of ours require us to have reliable offensive boosts to overcome? I don't think I missed any threads, and last I remember we were aiming to take on Electric-types, notably Zeraora, Tapu Koko, and Magnezone, along with some Flying-types like Tornadus-T, Venomicons, and Zapdos maybe, and even Toxapex as well by virtue of typing and ability, which gives us really good leverage against defensive teams in and of itself. Ever since the end of Threats, it seems like the main goal has been to eliminate the specific Pokemon from the C&C list and expand our offensive presence to encompass every theoretical team composition, and I can't figure out why. Neither of the "few reasons" from ausma's post (winning more vs. stall and not disturbing EdgeQuake coverage) are concept-related, unless the concept is to try and solo-sweep any team any time, which this post goes on to presuppose in a little more detail with examples like Multiscale Dragonite and Mega Altaria, which is problematic due to reasons and restrictions I shouldn't have to go into. This argument even goes so far as to acknowledge the dedication of several turns of setup (boosting and recovery) before even considering using Diamond Storm, realistically, which brings us back to the last part of that first paragraph of the quote.

I get it that most of these moves will end up in the optional category, and this thread is really more like a "feeling things out discussion circle" sort of thread with only the most obvious final decisions being made, but I just want to caution people before we get to stats that anything that approaches a bloated movepool here will most likely be detrimental to the concept of spotlighting Diamond Storm as a once-ever unbanned CAP mechanic. I personally would like to see some creativity and oomph in the stat spreads, due to the unique attributes of Diamond Storm and the framework on which we've placed this CAP's design, but I doubt that would be possible if we suddenly change course like we have done starting in this thread and end up with a bog-standard boosting sweeper, or worse, a bog-standard boosting sweeper with both Swords Dance and Dragon Dance / Shift Gear.

------------------

Okay I should try and add to the conversation too, I guess. I posted previously about Power-Up Punch and how it would be a good complement to Diamond Storm on an offensive and anti-offense build like the one we've spent the last few weeks working on. It's a guaranteed +1 Atk that can put stubborn targets like Zapdos, Landorus-T, and Rotom-W in better range when they switch in while still making progress and applying pressure vs. defensive Pokemon that cannot do any better than stalemating the CAP. +1 Atk is sufficient to give psuedo-STAB on Diamond Storm and make it more appealing as anything but a last resort, while conceptually it pairs nicely as a passive booster. With good base Speed, efficient tools for forcing switches, and a C&C list full of weakmons, it is conceivable that we could actually have the breathing room to test Diamond Storm's in-battle efficacy with consecutive setup turns. Along with Pain Split, a moveset of Earthquake/Diamond Storm/Power-Up-Punch/Pain Split is, imo, an entirely coherent application of the goals of this project and a standout amongst the tier's current Ground-types. And with Grass coverage, Taunt, Substitute, hell, even Stealth Rock (grumble grumble), this CAP would not even be impoverished for options or diversity of sets. I guess it will come down to what people want in terms of stats; I just hope the tradeoff of the "kitchen sink" movepool is worth it if we do go that route.
 

quziel

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I think we are walking a very fine line here by even considering moves like Swords Dance, Dragon Dance, and Shift Gear. For each of these moves added to the movepool, you take more and more away from Diamond Storm as a factor in the CAP's design. With all of these other moves like Stealth Rock, Taunt, Fire lures, and Thunder Wave (for hax fishing?) being thrown around, I am struggling to imagine a scenario where CAP31 would ever even click Diamond Storm if it has multiple utility options and reliable stat-boosting moves to set up first. At that point it really is just a move you use when the moves you really want to use won't work, with a cute perk tacked on the end sometimes. Diamond Storm is a setup move, and while not a great one, it is the one you guys chose to design the entire Pokemon around, and I am not seeing any real connection being made to that concept in these posts beyond "it would be great and strong to have +2 Def and also have Dragon Dance." I agree, but when do you anticipate having +2 Def in that case?
Not trying to single you out, ausma, but this is sort of exactly what I mean and it encapsulates a lot of what I have seen in this part of the thread. The concept here appears to have shifted to "so long as this move does not push Diamond Storm completely off the moveset, it is pro-concept," and I think we can be a little more focused than that. The mono-Ground typing and careful addition of targeted coverage like Grass and special Fire (ugh but w/e) ensure Diamond Storm's spot in the moveset, that's fine. These boosting moves are not a threat to EdgeQuake coverage, because they are not attacking moves, that is not the issue here.
Wanted to reply to this part in particular. Defining moves is not a list of every move we will get, and making it out to be so (as you, and others above have lightly implied*), is harmful to the stage. Edit: We should not get most, let alone all, of the optional defining moves, unless the stat spread submitter that won made heavy sacrifices. Its setting out a list of the most potentially relevant moves to our concept and our design that affect stat spread submissions. This list of moves is not remotely guaranteed, but instead is meant to be a list that stat spread submitters can choose from in order to justify why their stat spread is weaker than the mean. Having Swords Dance listed as a defining move means that a stat spread submitter can justify why their spread is 90 Attack / 100 speed as compared to the mean of 120 Attack / 100 speed. This does not, however, mean that we will get every single utility option, but rather that by laying these out ahead of time we can inform our choices during the stat spread submission stage. I should also note, even if a stat spread submitter includes a specific defining move during the creation of their spread, its not guaranteed on; Swords Dance was a large motivating part of why Snake created his spread, and Venomicon-E does not have it anymore.

The defining moves stage is meant to be a bit wider than it could be to allow for a large number of directions in stat spreads. Swords Dance, Dragon Dance, and even Shift Gear are not moves that I personally want on this mon, but they do have relevance to our concept (Diamond Storm absolutely makes revenge killing harder), and if a stat spread submitter thinks that they're a good way to go, then they absolutely need to be able to justify why their spread is 30-50 BST lower than someone who eschewed any setup moves.


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Edit: skimmed the below, going to edit the above to be a tad less accusatory, but want it to stay up. I just want to note that Defining Moves must include high power options that drastically change how our stat spread functions.

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Edit 2:

Personally speaking I'd like to see the boosting moves reflected in Defining moves be the following in order of strength: Bulk Up / Swords Dance / Dragon Dance / Shift Gear. Bulk Up is definitely the weakest here, arguably being weaker than Taunt as an offensive option, but still does preserve the potential win-condition capabilities. Its defense boosts are also something we likely don't have to explicitly take into account as Dstorm's boosts will already be taken into account. Swords Dance is significantly stronger, outpacing Intimidate, and turns us into a proper breaker. Dragon Dance and Shift Gear are options I personally do not like, but deserve to be on here, as Dstorm does combine with them to turn us into a literal cement mixer.

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Edit 3:

I worry that without setup, without major team utility (note this is hazards or removal), and without significant strength (this means beyond just EQ+ DS) we might be a bad gastrodon (our resists are categorically worse).
 
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spoo

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Echoing most of what ausma said above; I think offensive boosting is quite pro-concept for us, and placing "One of (Swords Dance, Dragon Dance, Shift Gear)" in optional is the right move imo. I'm not sold that we should/need to have it on our final moveset, but I think it's a good avenue to explore at least.

Ok, there are a few reasons I like boosting; this is kinda stream of consciousness so I might've missed some points but w/e
1) It leans into a more offensively-oriented build
Offense might be king: Going with these two ideas in mind, there's been a push as well for a more offensive sort of chassis to work with going forward. I'm not going to mandate "we need to be offensive" exactly, but it's certainly something to keep in mind, both as a way to find ourselves a niche as a Ground and to leverage the +2 defense boosts.
This is still relevant imo. Diamond Storm does two things - inflict damage and boost Defense - so we become a more effective user of the move when we get higher value out of those qualities. Setup moves allow us to hit much harder with it while the Defense boosts can deny us from being revenge-killed, something incredibly valuable to any setup user.

2) It is interactive with diamond storm
Somewhat related to the above point, I enjoy the synergy that setup has with DStorm. Speed-boosting options in particular allow us to potentially grab defense boosts before being attacked, while a powerful SD mon loves the insurance from revenge killers like Kart/Weav. I also find this point to be a strength over other utility options like hazards/removal that help CAP31 to find a slot of teams but have relatively no synergy with our concept move. Even something like Grass-type coverage leans into beating the Water-types our defensive profile wants us to beat, but has questionable individual synergy with DStorm. These options may be "pro-CAP31" but are not necessarily "pro-Diamond Storm," while I think setup is both. We want to either incentivize clicking DStorm or maximize value out of it when we do, and setup excels in that.

3) EdgeQuake will not be good enough by itself
If we want to apply offensive pressure, which I assume we do, we will probably need more than just EdgeQuake; it's an amazing foundation for our moveset, but it will not make enough progress by itself so we gotta bolster it somehow. This can look like extra coverage, a giant attack stat, setup, and to some extent utility options like Taunt. But spamming EdgeQuake alone won't do much, especially when one of these moves only has 8 PP.

4) There's still a lot of our power budget left
Basically just this. I expect us to have very strong stats (maybe not if we wanna use something like SG), but investing power in our moveset is very welcomed too.

5) It gives us a definite role
This is big for me. I think a lot of potential routes discussed - eg, something like taunt/edgequake/recovery - are quite strong on paper, but offer very little reason to actually be used and are largely role-less. We have already been denied certain options like Toxic and Knock Off, two moves which are on nearly every non-offense/HO team and often filled by the Ground-type slot (esp Toxic), and we may go further down this hole if we don't run hazards/removal. So even if CAP31 is a "strong" Pokemon, why would teams want to run it when it doesn't actually contribute that much? We need to offer more than just "water+elec immunity" if we want to be used. Setup turns us into a definite or partial win-condition, which is what teams usually start with - it practically guarantees us a place on squads, and avoids a lot of the aimlessness that other routes face.

Also, I think it's good to keep in mind stuff we discussed in the threats stage - namely, the importance of CAP31's defensive utility. Just because of our typing, we will need to be able to switch into Electrics like Zeraora or else there's a pretty hard ceiling on our ability to be a self-sufficient and powerful metagame presence. Because of this, CAP31 is sort of torn in two ways; we want to have the defensive oomph and longevity to check the necessary threats, but we want to be offensive enough to really make progress and get value out of DStorm. Setup can make up for a lot of offensive slack, and imo affords us enough freedom to get the best of both words here. CAP31's desire for good bulk also acts as a sort of built-in check to the potentially polarizing nature of setup options, immediately limiting our ability to just totally run through teams. As for specific moves, I think DD and SD are the most reasonable for sure, but I also quite like the idea of a mode-switch mon with SG where we start pretty slow and defensive but are able to turn into a powerful cleaner in the endgame. On a last note, I don't love Mach Punch because I think relying on Defense boosts to beat mons like Weavile is way cooler and more pro-concept than just KOing them first.

---
Korski, I'm worried I might be misinterpreting your post so I would appreciate clarification on a couple points. I really understand a lot of your reluctance to pursue setup options - even though I don't 100% agree, as the rest of my post makes clear - but it feels like the suggestion of power up punch at the end sorta contradicts this. To me, Swords Dance accomplishes everything that PUP does, but is much more consistent overall. Is PUP preferred because it doesn't fit into the "bog-standard" setup mold? Or is it that, because it's a weaker option, it'll take away fewer "clicks" from DStorm? Personally, when we're considering useful moves like SR/Taunt/Recovery/strong coverage/better setup options, and when we look at historical PUP users such as Mega Kang/Lopunny, I don't think we'd ever give up one of our moveslots for it. Also, I'm confused about these two passages, which seem contradictory to me as well: "I just want to caution people before we get to stats that anything that approaches a bloated movepool here will most likely be detrimental to the concept of spotlighting Diamond Storm as a once-ever unbanned CAP mechanic." and "And with Grass coverage, Taunt, Substitute, hell, even Stealth Rock (grumble grumble), this CAP would not even be impoverished for options or diversity of sets."
 

Wulfanator

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I think we are walking a very fine line here by even considering moves like Swords Dance, Dragon Dance, and Shift Gear. For each of these moves added to the movepool, you take more and more away from Diamond Storm as a factor in the CAP's design. With all of these other moves like Stealth Rock, Taunt, Fire lures, and Thunder Wave (for hax fishing?) being thrown around, I am struggling to imagine a scenario where CAP31 would ever even click Diamond Storm if it has multiple utility options and reliable stat-boosting moves to set up first. At that point it really is just a move you use when the moves you really want to use won't work, with a cute perk tacked on the end sometimes. Diamond Storm is a setup move, and while not a great one, it is the one you guys chose to design the entire Pokemon around, and I am not seeing any real connection being made to that concept in these posts beyond "it would be great and strong to have +2 Def and also have Dragon Dance." I agree, but when do you anticipate having +2 Def in that case?
It is not that difficult to imagine a scenario where 31 wants to click Diamond Storm. Given that Diamond Storm is our premier coverage options into flying-types, the value the move offers is always present. This would be a relevant concern with competing coverage/utility, but we have quashed many of those concerns by prohibiting moves we deem overlap with Diamond Storm targets. Setup does not compete with our ability to click Diamond Storm. We still need it to target mons that would otherwise wall us. Setup is complementary to our goal of wanting to click Diamond Storm. Using a 100 BP, low PP rock-move on a mon that does not have STAB is not great on its own. You either need to enable it with a large attack stat or provide access to setup to circumvent these limitations. By including these moves in defining moves, stats will be able to consider both routes for empowering Diamond Storm. I would also mention that both the defense boost of Diamond Storm and the speed boost from the likes of Dragon Dance make 31 harder to revenge kill: Diamond Storm being random chance and Dragon Dance being consistent. There is a very clear need for Diamond Storm in our kit, but, at this point, it will never be the default option.
 

Korski

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Korski, I'm worried I might be misinterpreting your post so I would appreciate clarification on a couple points. I really understand a lot of your reluctance to pursue setup options - even though I don't 100% agree, as the rest of my post makes clear - but it feels like the suggestion of power up punch at the end sorta contradicts this. To me, Swords Dance accomplishes everything that PUP does, but is much more consistent overall. Is PUP preferred because it doesn't fit into the "bog-standard" setup mold? Or is it that, because it's a weaker option, it'll take away fewer "clicks" from DStorm? Personally, when we're considering useful moves like SR/Taunt/Recovery/strong coverage/better setup options, and when we look at historical PUP users such as Mega Kang/Lopunny, I don't think we'd ever give up one of our moveslots for it. Also, I'm confused about these two passages, which seem contradictory to me as well: "I just want to caution people before we get to stats that anything that approaches a bloated movepool here will most likely be detrimental to the concept of spotlighting Diamond Storm as a once-ever unbanned CAP mechanic." and "And with Grass coverage, Taunt, Substitute, hell, even Stealth Rock (grumble grumble), this CAP would not even be impoverished for options or diversity of sets."
Sure, yeah I can elaborate; I see where you're coming from. I've got a personal preference for how I think this CAP would be best executed, and I'm pushing for it and trying to be persuasive to people who I think are trying to head in a different direction. I think where I am being confusing is in leaving my arguments open to interpretation as "this is wrong" instead of "I disagree," but I really am just trying to advocate for and against things as a regular user. I like the debate and I think we get the most out of the process when these ideas clash in the thread. My contradictory statements you've cited were to somewhat pre-empt counterarguments that I want the CAP to be entirely predictable, which I don't, I just don't want counterplay to bounce all over the place depending on if it's SD or DD or TauntSplit or Steel lure or status spreader, and I'm worried it might if we go this hard against our C&C list and give it the typical CAP leeway on movepool options; we did the free-for-all power budget thing with Aurumoth (apologies forever) after making it fully countered by the far-and-away #1 OU Pokemon at the time, (Scarf) Genesect, and then Gene was banned a week before we finished, and the rest is history. Theorymon is a double-edged sword, is what I'm trying to say. We used to rank all the moves and limit how many "good" moves any given CAP could have access to, and since that stopped happening I've seen a lot of nerfs and I'd rather that not happen again, especially as I don't see much need for broad movepool diversity as a source of strength for this concept or for our Threats and C&C lists if it risks limiting the stat spreads at all. So that is really my main point. I also don't want to overcompensate too hard in the other direction, so balance is another thing I am constantly arguing for in between the lines of my posts. I don't ever want to make it seem like I have weight to throw around, although I do appreciate all the responses to my posts. I have been a part of some big CAP wins in the past, a poll winner and mod and PRC member and blah blah blah, so I am intimately aware of the goals and structure of the process, but I've also been a part of a lot of decisions that didn't age well, too (everyone still hates Cawmodore, yes?). So I apply those lessons, good and bad, to my thinking and reasoning. If I am putting on airs or anything that looks like that, I want to assure you that is not my aim.

The CAP I am advocating for is excellent, damn good, super slick, albeit in a singular lane with consistent-but-not-fully-automatic counterplay. I am firmly against double dance, and even SD just goes too hard for only one turn of setup (only because of my personally preferred stat build), although your clarification of "One of (Swords Dance, Dragon Dance, Shift Gear)" is a relief and something I could come around on. My mind can be changed, and I'm not made of stone. I was against recovery before other users in this thread connected it to arguments I agreed with in the last thread. I can see a compelling case for Swords Dance or Dragon Dance in your post, actually, even if it's not my preference. DD accomplishes the same thing I'm shooting for, however I see it as a move designed for never getting hit again, whereas PuP + high base Speed still gets you the sweep potential but leans just a bit harder on really wanting that DS proc, especially if you'll need an extra turn to get to +2 Atk and punch through, or if +1 Atk is only enough to 2HKO some of your remaining opponents and you need to tank a hit from a good switch-in, or if you weren't able to clear out Scarf Victini or whatever yet and +2 Def makes the difference between winning and losing. These are all pro-concept applications of Diamond Storm and reasonable motivators to click that button on Turns 1 or 2, imo. PuP also has a conceptual connection to Diamond Storm as a damage-dealing move with a passive boost (a reliable one, even!), which is a minor point but still gives it a slight edge over SD in my opinion.

Wulfanator I agree with you too that Diamond Storm likely won't be your first choice, since your opponent will probably not be switching a Flying-type directly into you. If the build I'm thinking of doesn't end up on this CAP and we end up with something closer to Landog -Def/+SpD, then I'll probably not push for PuP anymore after stats, but for now I am contributing my opinions with what we have in front of us. I'm not saying these setup moves shouldn't be an option, I am just saying that in my estimation they pose a threat to the balance question and de-prioritize DS to a considerable degree I'm not comfortable with before seeing the stats.
 

dex

And then, Hefest got this run
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I just don't want counterplay to bounce all over the place depending on if it's SD or DD or TauntSplit or Steel lure or status spreader
The entire point of the "optional moves" part of this stage is not to give CAP 31 all these options; it is, by definition, optional. Rest assured that there is quite literally zero chance that CAP 31 gets all three of SD, DD, and SG, let alone two of the three. The whole point of optional moves is to allow people to pick and choose the moves that inform their stat spread submissions. What we are saying here is that CAP 31 can (but is not required to) have one (and not more) of the boosting options. Hopefully that quells your fears over this CAP.

I also wanted to talk about the whole fighting coverage scene real quick. Body Press is not good as anything more than a tech option for Equilibra. It's fine in this regard, but it does very little outside of this, so I wouldn't even count it as a defining move due to it being rather weak. Same goes for Power-Up Punch, who's users in the past have had a crazy power level and much better ability to use it. It's also pretty funny that PuP does a little more than half of the damage EQ does to Ferro while also incurring contact chip. Move is not good enough to be considered anything more than a distraction at this stage of the game.

With regards to the boosting options, I think all 3 are valid. DD I think is the weakest of the bunch, as Ground-Rock has to bust through some pretty beefy opponents before it can truly sweep, so I definitely prefer SG and SD, both of which I think should remain allowed under the optional section with the aforementioned condition that only one boosting move be allowed per stat submission (since this is apparently a concern). Boosting in general, however, shouldn't be required. I think there's a lot of room to work with if you want to build something with taunt and split or hazards or removal, so leaving that option open to give sets like that a nice stat boost is a great path forward.
 

SHSP

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Setup has grown on me as I've considered it, actually. I originally didn't view us as needing it or making much of a difference, but reading through the thread I definitely view it as something we should consider with regards to potential stat spreads later on. Of the three discussed, I think I prefer SD the most for reasons Dex described: DD may take too long to get going, and I don't see SG as much better in that regard. I also want to echo the fact that we should keep these optional: there's absolutely versions of CAP 31 that can exist entirely viable separate from any sort of boosting. I also want to boost the last point Spoo said about it- It 100% gives us a defined sort of role, playstyle and/or niche that is a huge contributor to getting put on teams in the first place.
 
If we end up interpreting CAP31's concept as better accurate edgequake with potential defense boost to mean that it should be a good version of Rock Polish Torterra, I'd be alright with that. Going the route of speedboosting is a good balance of offering another setup move to synergize with diamond storm but would ultimately not impact the rest of the process as significantly as swords dance would. It would allow for 31 to have the proper strength to still be threatening before a boost. I'm perfectly good with that boosting move being rapid spin, compressing speed boosting and hazard removal into one slot, giving 31 both a reason to be on your team, and a method of serving itself with a speed boost. Speed boost could be useful late game to clean with stormquake.
 
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