CAP 32 - Part 4 - Defining Moves Part 1

Status
Not open for further replies.
I think Bitter Blade is a fantastic option for CAP32, if not something that exceptionally enables. As a fire type, it's either relegated to HDB or needing some support in clearing which then limits it's ability to pivot in. Bitter Blade let's it potentially operate in a manner similar to Yveltal with SM Oblivion Wing. I was nervous about suggesting it initially, but I provides decent STAB and Healing in one, which is fantastic for its role compression, and desire to be coming in. This gives far more freedom when it comes to ability stages and means we can potentially afford to not run HDB which adds to power - Life Orb, or Scarf for example. Alternative healing methods in Synthesis etc exist, but on a low BST Mon, intended to pivot, I feel that finding the space to use a move that's not an attack would cut into the momentum - looking at other pivots throughout time, they're either resilient (Skarm, Corv) or have massive stats, immunities and offensive presences (Lando-T) forcing a switch which gives it the freedom to work in a Roost. Others usually have off-turn healing; (Slowbro, etc)

Yveltal sets running Oblivion Wing typically followed up with 2nd STAB (so play rough), Taunt, Toxic, Sucker Punch.

Following on from that, I believe that there is a lot to be said about CAP32's chance to remove hazards. Rapid Spin, or it's big brother Tidy Up fill that excellently, and it can't be Taunt blocked. Defog being another option means it can't get Pajantom'd (even if PJ is risking a Play Rough) either.

Similarly, this a role that SS Yveltal fulfilled, using Defog. That provided a valid niche to prevent Gira switching in, albeit one packing Dark STAB/Knock off, and backed up with Taunt, Toxic and Roost.

The speed boost of Rapid Spin that provides means it can start to be an offensive presence despite reduced stats potentially hindering that, or alternatively let it switch out.

A guaranteed burn is a good option; Will o Wisp providing some additional Phys resistance, which can come off the back of the increased speed.

Having some switch out move is excellent; I'm a fan of Parting Shot as it provides additional defense for the incoming Mon and doesn't force the reduced defenses from low BST on CAP32 to take a hit like say Teleport would. If Shed Tail wasn't so broke, I'd suggest that too. Volt Switch works as an alternative and lets us hit Waters, at the expense of being stumped a bit by Ground.
 
Although I like how CAP32's STAB moves threaten the pokemon that would otherwise be happy to come in on a predicted Volt Switch, I can't help but feel like Fire+Fairy supports Volt Switch moreso than the other way around. There's nothing inherently wrong with this; if coming in and Volt Switching to get chip + something else in is a primary gameplan of CAP32, being able to severely punish would-be switchins with super-effective STAB moves is invaluable. That being said, I have some doubts about being able to muster up enough power to make Volt Switch in particular stand out compared to other pivoting moves. Its 70 base power on a coverage move from CAP32's likely middling SpA leaves something to be desired, especially with this typing+role combination likely running Heavy-Duty Boots rather than a power-boosting item like Choice Specs.

I am intrigued by its interaction with Lumina Crash, however, as Ausma said. Especially if we end up with at least decent Speed, being hit with a Lumina Crash can turn into a no-win scenario, as staying in means CAP32 gets to hit your -2 spdef with a powerful volt switch before bringing in a teammate, switching to an electric immunity typically risks Fire or Fairy STAB (except for a very small group of pokemon like Saharaja), and switching into something else means taking chip and being on the back foot against the switch-in. That said, this relies on being able to reliably switch in and click Lumina Crash (which will OHKO approximately none of the tier), which means a good defensive presence will be very important.

Parting Shot, as Darek mentioned, is likely the most powerful pivot move option here. Very little profitably switches in on Parting Shot, and fast offensive threats like as Cinderace might suddenly find a matchup much less tenable at -1 to their attacking stats. Not much actually switches into fire + fairy typing especially well, and the addition of parting shot would mean CAP32 usually leaves the field with a momentum advantage.

As far as STABs go, I'm very much pro-Eruption, as it gives immediate power that allows us to punch above what our stats would suggest, though it does ideally suggest an at least decent speed stat to be effective. It plays well with recovery moves as well, Strength Sap being a unique and powerful standout (and one that gives a dramatically improved matchup spread against powerful neutral physical hits, especially if this ends up being fast). If not sap, 50% recovery is quite good too, helping reliably fill the pivot role throughout the game rather than quickly losing its defensive backbone to chip damage and strong resisted hits.

Definitely prefer special moves over physical ones here, not least because Moonblast is a great and well-distributed move, with a high base power, 100 accuracy, and a 30% chance to stymie special attackers trying to get in position. Play Rough, well, misses, and isn't that a slap in the face to both your health bar and your momentum, not to mention taking contact damage (though I doubt many Rocky Helmet wearers are fond of our STABs). Physical Fire moves like Flare Blitz and Bitter Blade look tempting, but I fear the recoil of the former might add up too quickly and the latter simply may not hit hard enough, despite being appealing for the recovery. I suspect CAP32's defensive matchups will look a lot like those of an example Bang Average pokemon - Clefable. It can switch into plenty of things, sure, but often only by the skin of its teeth, and taking recoil damage all the time from Flare Blitz might torpedo such versatility when it lacks the mammoth stats that allow it to more firmly answer its obstacles.

Lava Plume is an interesting damage + utility option that's really easy to click. I like it, especially if If combined with some other means of forcing passive damage or generally being annoying (knock off, leech seed, parting shot, or hell, strength sap).

Echoing others on not being a fan of Torch Song. Doesn't really mesh well with the role and lack of immediate power.

Other stuff:
Speed control, likely via Thunder Wave or Glare, might come in handy. Although we don't necessarily need to be slow, our bang-average stats probably mean we won't be incredibly fast either, and being able to throw around paralysis forces things that would normally be happy to switch into relatively weak neutral hits to think twice.

I talked about wanting to go Special earlier, but Tidy Up very well could change that. Being able to remove hazards and set up at the same time is an incredibly strong move, and could synergize with something like Bitter Blade to create a hazard remover that turns into a snowballing monster at a moment's notice. I'm not sure CAP32 is excited to stay in against common hazard setters, though.

Knock Off, Taunt, and Stealth Rock have all been talked about, but they would fill a useful niche here, with a spammable knock off and a favorable type matchup against hazard removers.
 
shnowshner said:
What STAB moves look promising? If so, is it because of their secondary effects, high base power, or strong matchup into top threats?
Click to expand...
To start, Flamethrower, Fire Blast, and Moonblast are all fairly simple to understand moves that each give us a strong, high power STAB to work with. don't really need to go into too much detail for them.

Lava Plume is an interesting option. its a bit weaker than Flamethrower, which is a downside given our lower power level, but the higher chance of getting a burn means that any switch ins short of a fire type will think twice about coming in, allowing 32 to either pressure the opponents switch ins or guarantee that a Pokemon like Skeledirge or Iron Moth will come in to take it, allowing 32 to pair well with teammates that beat those Pokemon by luring them in.

I'm not sure how I feel about Eruption. while it is a very powerful move that would certainly boost the mons power, it's also just that: a very powerful move. it's absurd strength is useful, but it's only one move, meaning that most of 32's power would come from it and it would require us to find a balance between it being most of 32's offensive presence(and thus its offensive potential waning when its HP is low or when Eruption is resisted), or giving 32 good offensive presence in general and having a nuke of a move alongside other powerful STAB options. While I won't doubt that it could be done, I also worry how worth it it is to bend the process around this one move, especially when there are other ways of boosting our power and offensive potential.

Physical options in general don't feel good to me. Between Flare Blitz's recoil, Pyro Ball's inability to hit Equilibra, and Play Rough's imperfect accuracy and power, there are very few available to us that are worth the any drawbacks they might have. Bitter Blade is the only one that seems worth considering, but even that's brought down by the weaknesses of 32's other STAB type physically.

I agree with the notions that both Armor Cannon and Torch Song don't really fit what this Pokemon wants to do. Armor Cannon sacrifices our bulk for power, which doesn't really match up with our choice of Fire/Fairy for its mix of offensive and defensive potential. Torch Song, on the other hand, requires us to stay in for multiple turns in order to get use out of it, which both goes against our role and also requires bulk that we most likely won't have.

As a final mention, I want to bring up Draining Kiss as an option for us. while it is a weak move, its healing offers us a way to present offense while keeping 32 sustained throughout the course of a battle, and it has good synergy with certain abilities, which this CAP is looking for.

shnowshner said:
What coverage types/moves would CAP32 enjoy access to? Are there types that we should avoid handing out freely, or moves within certain typings that are too powerful? How does Terastallization impact our potential coverage options?
Click to expand...
WIP

shnowshner said:
For non-attacking options, which do we have the best chance of utilizing effectively? Are there any caveats to certain moves that might make them less effective than initially thought, or does our typing help us get around such issues?
Click to expand...
WIP
 
Some thoughts:

I just don't think Armor Cannon or Eruption are defining moves. I cannot imagine a world where a Bang Average mon needs to worry about Eruption damage to the point where it takes control over stats or ability- its also such a volatile move that almost goes against the concept of switching in as a pivot vs the strong attackers ausma listed in their initial post and making use of whatever resists we have. Meanwhile Armor Cannon is a stronger and more reliable option than Fire Blast, but this isn't what this stage needs to worry about. These attacks are not leaning heavily into the concept and do not need to be locked in at this stage. If this mon was ideally going physical, then the fire moves like Bitter Blade are actually worth locking in as defining moves due to the difficult physical stabs for Fire. Eruption and Armor Cannon are just slightly better options for moves that are already great and near-universal (Flamethrower, Fire Blast, Overheat), that can absolutely pop up later but aren't defining and both have downsides that can easily relegate them to a first slash in a moveset rather than the main feature.

As for some of the other moves mentioned in the thread:
Tidy Up mixes pivoting qualities with some lategame sweeping, such an amazing move. However, this mon does struggle currently to get in on SR and Spikes setters that often carry ground or poison coverage. This could be worth locking in early, in order to challenge some of those weaknesses in the ability stage.
Lumina Crash is an insane move and I shouldnt be surprised that it came up haha. Its a monster that pairs well with Fire and Fairy stab, and feels potentially unwallable outside of this mon being let down by stats. As I write it, I guess this lines up with what this concept is trying to achieve. Honestly a tall task to balance nicely though.
Stealth Rock/Spikes is good, its something that like Tidy Up could be helpful to outline early to improve matchups vs hazard control even better.
Parting Shot is a great move but imo not defining. Good move that will likely find ways onto sets
Recovery is always good. This concept doesnt really befit a giant tank that gets by with pure bulk alone, and plenty of the mons we resist are hitting hard (rarely supportive mons), so recovering might help here. I'm not on the Strength Sap train because its easy to play around with mons like Iron Moth and Venomicon granting 20% healing and causing you to die the next time you try and come in. 50% recovery I'm down for
 
Last edited:
Regarding Armor Cannon as a defining move, guaranteeing a 120 BP 100% accurate STAB gives CAP32 a very solid base to work with. Being able to click a consistent, powerful move that doesn't require anything from ability to function or keeping your HP in check provides a fantastic base for CAP32 moving into ability / stats. Every build based around Armor Cannon can very reliably assume to run a moveset of Armor Cannon / Moonblast/ filler / filler, which can allow for fine-tuned calcs based on strong, 100% accurate moves in stats stage AND leaves 2 open moveslots for CAP32 to run the pivoting/utility moves that have been historically used on offensive pivot (as discussed in shnowshner's first set of questions and summarized in his previous post).

The defense drops aren't insignificant, but those defense drops don't matter as much on an offensive pivot. It would be a very different story if we were a defensive pivot. Close Combat has been a competitive staple for generations, and I don't see why Armor Cannon can't do the same. Most important is that an offensive pivot will appreciate not having to risk clicking inaccurate attacks or manage its HP to get damage off.

---

As alluded already, I don't think Eruption should be a defining move. Eruption is a good move and should definitely be considered in the moveset stage, but its variability puts a bigger strain on stats than there already is. Do you calc for its maximum power and accept that it's going to be weak when CAP32 inevitably isn't at 100% HP? Or do you calc for some smaller BP and know that Eruption is going to be way more powerful when it's at HP values? I think in the stats stage, we need to focus on dealing with average stats, not what Base Power do we use for Eruption. Stats stage for CAP32 will be the most difficult part of this project - let's not make it even more difficult by introducing a variable BP move.

Moreover, I don't think Eruption will work practically as people predict it will. We've spoken a lot about being an offensive pivot, and many have established that pivoting moves are key for CAP32's success in this role. Then we need a moveslot for Eruption. Then, I'd like to assume that we can dedicate moveslot for a Fairy-type STAB alongside Eruption. So, the moveset so far is: Eruption / Moonblast / pivot move, which doesn't contain any of the moves that shnowshner listed in his last post that offensive pivots have used successfully after the pivot moves:
shnowshner said:
Moves that help us make incremental progress or open up winpaths, like Knock Off, hazards, and status-inducing moves (even Sleep), look quite valuable as well. Priority and recovery moves are more novel but nonetheless instrumental aspects of Offensive Pivots.
Click to expand...
So, there's a lot missing from this moveset already, but the moveset is still isn't functional because CAP32 will be at low HP at some point, so CAP32 needs some way be able to deal Fire-type damage Fire-types. Let's look at two potential solutions:
  • Recovery in the last slot would make Eruption strong, yes, but in actual battles, CAP32 doesn't want to spend a valuable turn to click a recovery move only to make its Fire-type STAB strong again. That momentum loss just isn't worth it. Consider CAP32 with this moveset at 33% health against a healthy Equilibra. With a competent Fire-type STAB, CAP32 could just torch Equilibra, but with only Eruption, it has to heal. However, barring specific abilities, Equilibra continually clicks super effective Earth Power into CAP32, negating the recovery. Congratulations, we made a Fire-type that loses to a Steel-type. The point is that Eruption cannot be your only Fire-type STAB, even if you have recovery.
  • Suppose you run Fire Blast or some othe Fire-type move in the last slot instead so you avoid the above problem. What's stopping CAP32 from running Fire Blast / Moonblast / pivot move / coverage or utility? This moveset would gain so much more value out of this team slot as an offensive pivot. That Fire-type move could even be Armor Cannon!
I just don't see Eruption working on an offensive pivot because it eats a valuable moveslot while still mandating an additional moveslot for a secondary Fire-type STAB for when CAP32 is inevitably at low health. Mandating a recovery move to make Eruption strong again does not work because not only has CAP32 again eaten an additional moveslot to enable Eruption, but it has to take turns to use that recovery move to make Eruption work. Recovery isn't bad, but being forced to click to use your STAB move effectively is bad.

I'm not saying that the final product cannot have Eruption - it is definitely a "fun" and "cool" move. However, it's not setting up CAP32 for success as a defining move.

---

tl;dr If you're looking for immediate power from a Fire-type STAB, Armor Cannon is literally right there. It's not too much weaker than Eruption, but it's way more reliable at both landing consistent damage and leaving moveslots open for pivot moves or utility. Armor Cannon just lines up way better with our chosen role than does Eruption.
 
I'm quite busy so can't give a full discussion of the questions posed but I wanted to discuss two moves that potentially fall into both the STAB and coverage categories which I think we should be able to include in discussion during the ability stage: Boomburst and Extreme Speed. To start with, these moves give a big viability boost to any offensive mon in a terastallisation metagame thanks to tera normal. Additionally, with the right abilities these moves give us options for STAB physical fairy priority, a much stronger Moonblast alternative, or very powerful options for Electric coverage.
 
SKIPPERGAMEZ said:
For non-attacking options, which do we have the best chance of utilizing effectively? Are there any caveats to certain moves that might make them less effective than initially thought, or does our typing help us get around such issues?

First, I wanna bring up Teleport. Teleport wasn’t brought up, and maybe it’s because we are going to be an Offensive Pivot, but pivoting last to gain the right advantage against the opponent is super duper helpful. Next, Knock Off and Taunt have been beaten to death, but I agree with them. Strength Sap nearly always recovers more than 50%, but Recover and Company have their merit, if not to keep the Power Budget up. I like Encore and Perish Song, as they both force switches. I find Spore intriguing, as we can target Grass types that block it.
Click to expand...

Definitely gonna have to agree that Spore is an exceptionally interesting option. Rare, powerful moves are an effective way give Pokemon with lower stats strong contenders, as we've seen with other Spore users, and our Fire typing has interesting interactions with this move, not just with regards to Grass-types, but also with regards to Gholdengo. This move would take up a large part of our power budget, but we'll be dealing with lower stats during the stat stage, so it should be workable without becoming frustrating to play against in my opinion. This move also definitely fits with forcing opponents out, aggressively using status rather than just damage, meaning that we may be able to force switches even if our attacking stat is too low to scare out certain threats.
 
Going through the thread I feel like we are getting too hung up on details rn so zooming out and looking at what large scale trends have emerged feels like a good thing to do.

Everyone agrees, that we want the strongest STAB options here. Imo we shouldn’t discriminate between naturally strong options and options that become strong in the context of abilities and other moves. The common ground here is big damage and/or busted side effects. Everything that is a potential upper limit BP STAB or a STAB that provides utility in ways that make this Mon uniquely strong should be on the table to have an ability discussion that can focus on enhancing or leveraging these, with as much open discussion as possible.

For coverage, what I can gather from the thread is, that the big three coverage types we should look into and which should be considered for potential synergy during ability are Electric, Psychic and Ground. Again I don’t think we immediately need to fixate on any one specific move right now as long as we explore how to enhance or leverage these coverage types with our ability.

With utility I think we can be more specific bc they are harder to narrow down otherwise, and imo there’s only a very limited amount of abilities that meaningfully interact with these moves.
In general the majority seems to like Parting Shot, U-Turn, Knock Off, Hazards, Recovery and Status.
Hazards, U-Turn and Knock Off rarely interact with abilities that seem interesting here so I don’t think they are defining atm.
That means for Utility we should make recovery, Parting shot and Status moves an option to mention during abilities.

Anything more specific like if Lumina Crash is an option over Psychic or Expanding force or if we want Spore as a defining move or Glare orStun Spore or the discussion between Armor Canon and Fire Blast can happen after we have locked an ability in bc for what it’s worth for most abilities these options will be fairly similar and don’t really impact ability choice rather than affecting stats laterdown the road.
 
You know what is one way for CAP 23 to always have a unique niche? Give it Revival Blessing! Yeah yeah I know the move is super strong, but this mon does have average stats after all, so it won't be that hard to balance. And we know it isn't broken so far on Pawmot and Rabsca. I think it could work well on an offensive pivot mon (that can hopefully force switches). I really doubt GF will give out this move like candy, so the chances of it being outclassed in the future are very low.

It's a shame we can't make custom signature moves anymore, I was thinking of something like a Sun version of Chilly Reception to guarantee a niche on Sun teams. Maybe Chilly Reception is still an option...

As for other ideas, maybe 23 can be one of those FuturePort spammers, though we did get give Doom Desire to Equilibra for that sort of role. A disruptive move like Yawn could force switches just like the suggested Lumina Crash. Spirit Break could be a fun option on Physical sets. I'm assuming Magma Storm is not legal, otherwise, a pseudo-trapping role could be fun. Fire Spin probably won't cut it.

Edit: Since it is Fairy type, along the same trapper lines I was also thinking of Fairy Lock, but then sadly the move requires you to switch the same turn (via an Eject Buttion maybe) to enable another sweeper to set up. What a shame.
 
Last edited:
I'm going to go against the flow of the current discussion and urge caution when it comes to extremely strong moves such as Lumina Crash. I'm old enough to remember Shaymin-Sky's brief tenure in OU during the DPP days, and how it had a strong move capable of doing what Lumina Crash does - albeit with more power and less consistency. It turned out to be so broken that when it was suspected, the vote to ban it was unanimous. I can't stress enough how unheard of that is for a high-profile suspect test - even DEOXYS didn't get 100% of the votes to ban it. For another example that might hit closer to home, imagine if Astrolotl's Fire Lash caused 2 defense drops instead of one with every hit, and just think how obnoxious that would be to face.

Even apart from Lumina Crash, in general, we shouldn't be handing out strong moves like candy. Yes, we're talking about a mon with below-average base stats. Yes, we'll need some power in order to make it usable in OU. But remember that there have been mons outright banned despite having a below-average BST, due to a combination of uniquely strong moves and abilities set to abuse them - just look at Cyclizar. One move took a mon that probably wouldn't even be all that good in RU without it, and turned it into way too good of a supporter for a healthy OU to handle.
 
I'll admit Yuelia kinda convinced me against Lumina Crash. It is a CRAZY strong move, and having a low BST doesn't guarantee we aren't broken with it. Fire/Fairy/Psychic is also incredible coverage, and I don't think there's any Pokemon ranked above B+ that resists all three.

Anyway, I don't know if legendary signatures are on the table, but if they are, an idea that popped into my head last night is Hydro Steam. Water coverage is pretty cool for hitting Fire types that give us trouble, while still not improving our matchup against Pokemon like Prologue and Snaelstrom. And sun is so dominant right now too, and even if we aren't running CAP 32 alongside Jumbao, there's always the chance you'll run into an opposing Sun team.

This is gonna be controversial, but I also support Spore. We threaten Pokemon that are immune such as Jumbao and Gholdengo with our Fire STAB, while the existence of Garganacl and Snaelstrom I think keeps it from being broken.
 
While I still don’t think that we should be discussing the specifics of moves right now I want to intercede here on the Lumina Convo.

Seed Flare is a 120 BP Stab Move that paired with its ability will drop the opponents SpD by two stages every other turn or so. That’s a 180 BP move after STAB off of 120 Spa, compared to the 80BP Lumina Crash, that will likely come from a weaker attacking stat.
Running lumina means we lose a slot, that could be used for moves like knock, Status etc.
Shymin does not have that issue.
Moreover a good part of what got it banned was also 127 Speed Flinching plus Sub-Leech Seed being super uncompetitive to play against.
Yes dropping SpD by two stages on a coverage move is very good but I think we will be hard pressed to actually make that broken. Like just to be controversial, I could see Lumina plus Stakeout just to make this Mon look stupid until you see it has 80 Spa.
 
Lumina Crash is a very tricky move; however, it, like Torch Song, conflicts with CAP 32's chosen role of offensive pivot. It's pretty much the last move you'd want on a pivot because once you use Lumina Crash, you want to stay in and use it again. The move can cheese through matchups as well, which is pretty unfun. I don't think it adds anything that meaningful to CAP 32's portfolio of available moves, and it may even actively harm CAP 32's attempts to complete the concept. The move gets a hard no from me.

Revival Blessing is an interesting one because it actively encourages the ability to pivot. The move is really spooky, though, and I don't think this is the process for it.

Hydro Steam adds no meaningful coverage outside of hitting Fire-types which can be accomplished in so many easier ways. This mon isn't usurping any of sun's wallbreakers anytime soon, so I don't think Hydro Steam is worth bothering with.
 
STAB moves are pretty well-discussed, I don't have that much to add other than +1 to Bitter Blade since it is probably the most interesting move for the ability stage while bundling a lot of value into a slot and -1 to Eruption. Maybe it can be slapped on the final movepool but probably not worth designing ability and stats around.

Considering that actual moveslots matters a lot when weighing coverage options. I am not focusing on entire set submissions, but more a broad look at what the mon would feasibly run independent of a handful moveset demanding abilities (i.e. you wouldn't run a Dragon's Maw mon with Dragon moves (we aren't doing Dragon's Maw)). I think CAP32 as an offensive pivot seems suited for one of two camps:

-All-out Attack sets that will always run dual STABs with coverage (think Dragapult or Krilowatt)
-Utility Offense that will focus more on swinging with strong midground options (think Landorus-T or Tornadus-T)

The All-Out Attack sets would benefit either from coverage to answer common resists to STABs (i.e. Toxapex) or moves that hit physical/special walls that would be difficult to break with neutral STAB attacks (i.e. Garganacl). Lumina Crash is the one move that compresses both into the same slot; you hit Toxapex hard, and make it easier to break through a mon like Garganacl (mathmatically, Lumina into Moonblast will do around 30% more damage at minimum than Moonblast into Moonblast.) So long as you are faster than the mon switching and its not a Dark-type, its pretty consistent to swing with Lumina Crash. This makes CAP32 pretty easy to use depending on our Speed stat, which is an interesting boon to design around.

Other good coverage is probably Water, Rock, and Ground, mostly because Skeledirge crocblocks our STAB incredibly hard while also being another really good offensive fire-type that can pivot into threats. Knock Off also works here.

Utility offense probably takes note from mons like the aforementioned Lando and Torn. So moves like Knock Off and Toxic are quite good midground options, although for CAP32 I think Glare or Spore would work just as well if not better than Toxic. Hazards seem like a fine option for the same reasons we mentioned in the previous stage; our typing pressures a lot of common removal options. Removal seems less good due to the sheer number of decent removal options in CAP that already easily slot onto teams.

I actually don't think recovery is super necessary, especially if we can swing with Bitter Blade, but Strength Sap or Moonlight seem good. The former has good PP and can force switches against physical attackers, while the ladder is strong with sun being everywhere and GETS STAB!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
dex said:
Lumina Crash is a very tricky move; however, it, like Torch Song, conflicts with CAP 32's chosen role of offensive pivot. It's pretty much the last move you'd want on a pivot because once you use Lumina Crash, you want to stay in and use it again. The move can cheese through matchups as well, which is pretty unfun. I don't think it adds anything that meaningful to CAP 32's portfolio of available moves, and it may even actively harm CAP 32's attempts to complete the concept. The move gets a hard no from me.
Click to expand...

Fun/challenge aside, we have seen that defense-dropping attacks dont conflict with interest with Astro, who is also a pivot that uses drops. If anything it has more pivot-friendly qualities as the next mon you switch in can also abuse the drops. Lumina Crash into something like Parting Shot and you're basically setting up the next mon as a sitting duck, as an example. Also, staying in multiple turns to Lumina Crash to get a 2hko on a Venom, Cruci, Glimmora, Toxapex or whatever else also isnt a negative, because of the -2 instead of -1 you can ko many of these slow or mid speed threats before they can hit you back, assuming they switch into the first attack attempting to check you. Lumina seems to align more with getting guaranteed 2hkos than dropping a mon 3 times in a row and trading hits like Astros Fire Lash.
As a non-stab move there will also be the choice to use a STAB to hit harder in any given scenario, unlike with something like Fire Lash which is sometimes Astro's strongest fire stab option. If you need the immediate damage you have it, and Lumina is a tool for guaranteeing a kill when revenging a weaker pokemon or when forcing something out. It compresses a few things at once too, so you're able to slot in a pivot/utility move easier while also having an additional coverage that doubles as a breaking tool. It really doesnt have any conflicting issues with our role, rather enhances it- and the counterargument only exists within power budget and personal preference for direction imo.

Torch Song definitely is more along the lines of what you're writing though, because you dont keep any benefits when switching out while trying to ramp up slowly.
 
after some discussion in the dicord, reading of posts here, and some of my own brain mushing i wanna do a take 2 on my post:
When listing strong options for STAB, i more or less just listed every strong fire move haphazardly, which doesn't help discussion at all.
if i had to choose, id say Armor Cannon/Fire Blast are our best options. Armor Cannon is our best option for Special Fire STAB, but Fire Blast also works if we end up deciding we don't want .

Moves like Lava Plume and Torch Song are a hard no for me. The former just isnt powerful enough for us and doesnt help us pressure our checks and the latter is anti-concept as you'd want to stay in to benefit from your boosts.

Eruption is an option, but i do not think it should be a defining move. The main benefit our typing has over other types, such as Fire/Psychic, is we have a strong blend of defensive and offensive utility. Being a Pivot, it makes use of both by being able to switch in one of many resisted hits to threaten many mons out with its STAB. If we try to play like this with Eruption, the move is just going to get weaker and weaker the more a game goes on. It's almost anti-concept, IMO. Not only that, most of the time you do not run Eruption as your only fire STAB. You always run it with another more reliable fire stab, taking a slot away from potential utility or coverage.

Still a strong supporter of Lumina Crash. Lumina Crash is obviously the best contender for beating the former while also hitting other poisons for SE. Personally, Ithink we NEED some sort of counterplay for venom or garg, be it Knock, coverage, or the like. While yes, it is normal and healthy for mons to have counters, when we know we're going to have bad stats I believe that its important to not be walled by two of the best pokemon in the tier RN.
Lumina Crash, from what I can see, is actually pro-concept. Yes, we may want to stay in and click Crash more than once, but as stated before we have seen Astrolotl act similarly with Fire Lash yet it still plays similarly as a Pivot.

I like Lumina especially if we get it in tandem with Parting Shot. Lumina Crash -> Parting Shot makes use of the short time we stay on the field by basically stat-bombing the target and forcing a switch.
Its also worth noting that Parting Shot is only blocked by Taunt, making it one of our better options for pivoting.
 
dex said:
As well as Good As Gold and Magic Bounce. U-turn is still the most consistent pivoting option. Not to say Parting Shot is bad, but if you want consistency, U-turn is the best option.
Click to expand...

Magic Bounce also denies Parting Shot, and Hatterene is quite decent in the current metagame. Not that any of these things are huge hits to its consistency - Gholdengo gets destroyed by Fire STAB, and Hatterene isn't the best at coming into neutral special attacks - but it might somewhat affect our matchup spread.

That being said, although U-Turn pivots out most consistently, it does open us up to contact move punishment from Rocky Helmet and Rough Skin. Although most common Rocky Helmet users (i.e. Garchomp, Corviknight) are hard-pressed to switch in (and there are no relevant Static users in the current metagame), it could still deal chip damage, shortening CAP32's longevity.
 
1. What STAB moves look promising? If so, is it because of their secondary effects, high base power, or strong matchup into top threats?

The widely distributed Fire and Fairy moves seem sufficient for concept fulfillment. Of the non-signature moves, special moves have the fewest drawbacks for our typing. Fire Blast, Flamethrower, and Moonblast are simple and strong. These are the type of moves that are assumed by default and enable greater consistency. Likewise, Flare Blitz and Play Rough are available for physical routes. They require more support to yield the same consistency as the assumed special moves.

I do want to restate that we should list these options as “assumed STAB moves.” Assumed STAB moves should also apply to moves that our ability can make STAB. The idea is that this would resolve one of the biggest issues people had with defining moves before ability. This approves generic moves that are benefitted by -ate abilities or abilities that provide tertiary STAB (i.e. Steelworker) without explicitly having to explicitly list them.

I’m rather indifferent to most of the STAB signature moves, but I did want to comment on Torch Song. Selecting offensive pivot as CAP32’s role does not suddenly imply that we won’t be staying in. There are many examples of pokemon that use their typing and ability to switch in and set up. These pokemon are still considered offensive pivots. It appears that people are just confused by what it means to be an offensive pivot or have opted for a needlessly narrow definition. Either way, Torch Song is still a valid consideration.

2. What coverage types/moves would CAP32 enjoy access to? Are there types that we should avoid handing out freely, or moves within certain typings that are too powerful? How does Terastallization impact our potential coverage options?

Of all the coverage we could consider, Ground, Electric, Water, Psychic, and Rock are probably some of the best options.

Ground, Water, and Rock all target the fire types that wall our STABs. Fire + Ground coverage is well established. Multiple CAP creations rely on this coverage, and it has become a crutch option in many projects. Water is perhaps the most limited of the 3. Beyond fire types, the coverage is really only pressuring non-terastallized Garganacl and more fringe viable pokemon. Rock, on the other hand, enables completely unresisted coverage. It also targets Venomicon should we really want to beat it. Rock is still eclipsed by ground coverage because ground simply hits more pokemon super-effective.

Electric and Psychic coverage is willing to not worry about our match up into fire types and, instead, aim to target relevant bulky poison types instead. Both hit Venomicon and Toxapex super-effectively. Psychic is probably the better option simply because you are targeting Iron Moth and Clodsire as well. I really don’t think either coverage is that impressive and both seem like lame excuses to justify moves like Lumina Crash and Volt Switch
 
Quick update:

I have been rather preoccupied lately but have caught-up with the thread as of now. A lot has been said and I have an idea of where we want to go, there are just a few moves I would like more people to share their thoughts on:
  • Lumina Crash (is the secondary effect too strong? would our likely lower special attack balance it?)
  • Eruption (should we include a move with dramatic highs and lows into our defining list?)
  • Torch Song (how can an offensive pivot make use of a move that encourages staying in?)
  • Bitter Blade (is this move strong enough with its healing to work despite low base power?)
Will also add that Tera discussion has been low, which isn't surprising, but the reason I mentioned it is because it opens up avenues for us to boost our coverage beyond that which was possible before. This isn't terribly common in play as Tera is usually either STAB type or fully defensive, but there are a few examples contrary to this, so I would want to know if users feel there's any coverage moves discussed that Tera might make problematic.

At latest expect a preliminary slate by early Sunday afternoon. I will try to get things moving sooner but I can't promise that.
 
shnowshner said:
Quick update:
  • Eruption (should we include a move with dramatic highs and lows into our defining list?)
Click to expand...

I think said dramatic highs are worth it. This CAP would really appreciate something extra powerful, and I don't think being worn down by hazards is a concern since we're likely gonna be running Heavy-Duty Boots anyway. And worse comes to worse, if it doesn't like using Eruption, it'll just use Fire Blast or Overheat. But giving it to CAP 32 can't hurt.

shnowshner said:
  • Bitter Blade (is this move strong enough with its healing to work despite low base power?)
Click to expand...

90 base power is not THAT low tbf. It's not as strong as say, Flare Blitz, but it is certainly better than something like Fire Punch. I think the recovery this move provides makes it worth it on CAP 32, as it's great compression. There could even be scenarios in which it runs Flare Blitz and Bitter Blade on the same set to heal up the Flare Blitz recoil, and it might not have to run a recovery move that way. I'm not sure if that would happen, but I think it's worth a shot.
 
shnowshner said:
Lumina Crash (is the secondary effect too strong? would our likely lower special attack balance it?)
Click to expand...
It's probably not too strong by itself, but it's also... not correct on CAP 32? People brought up Astro as the example of "I lower stats and I'm a pivot!!!" but the difference between -1 and -2 is pretty stark. Additionally, the things that could deal with that -1 def seamlessly (venom, pex) are the exact things that Lumina Crash targets and ruins as counterplay. I think the move would essentially turn into CAP 32 turning into a Lumina Crash bot, just spamming the move as the safest, most unpunishable thing ever. Pretty process-warping, not a fan.
 
I also think Lumina Crash turns CAP32 into a Lumina Crash bot.

But whether or not CAP32 spams Lumina Crash is irrelevant to the concept, nor is clicking the move indicative of an inability to pivot. If Lumina Crash forces the opponent to go to a faster threat that can retaliate before the -2 hit, then CAP32 is forced out and thus pivoting. If it wallbreaks, even better; good pivots do more than just pivot.

I am pro-Lumina Crash, seems like a fun move to click and makes CAP32 stand out.
 
Brambane said:
I also think Lumina Crash turns CAP32 into a Lumina Crash bot.

But whether or not CAP32 spams Lumina Crash is irrelevant to the concept, nor is clicking the move indicative of an inability to pivot. If Lumina Crash forces the opponent to go to a faster threat that can retaliate before the -2 hit, then CAP32 is forced out and thus pivoting. If it wallbreaks, even better; good pivots do more than just pivot.

I am pro-Lumina Crash, seems like a fun move to click and makes CAP32 stand out.
Click to expand...
Ok maybe the point of my post wasn't gotten across correctly. Sure, you could design a Lumina Crash pivot through stats and ability and whatnot. That doesn't change the fact that Lumina Crash is an inherently process-warping move, especially if you go down the lumina bot path. Move is super strong, so I'd prefer if it didn't go and impact ability unnecessarily.
 
shnowshner said:
Quick update:

I have been rather preoccupied lately but have caught-up with the thread as of now. A lot has been said and I have an idea of where we want to go, there are just a few moves I would like more people to share their thoughts on:
  • Lumina Crash (is the secondary effect too strong? would our likely lower special attack balance it?)
  • Eruption (should we include a move with dramatic highs and lows into our defining list?)
  • Torch Song (how can an offensive pivot make use of a move that encourages staying in?)
  • Bitter Blade (is this move strong enough with its healing to work despite low base power?)
Will also add that Tera discussion has been low, which isn't surprising, but the reason I mentioned it is because it opens up avenues for us to boost our coverage beyond that which was possible before. This isn't terribly common in play as Tera is usually either STAB type or fully defensive, but there are a few examples contrary to this, so I would want to know if users feel there's any coverage moves discussed that Tera might make problematic.

At latest expect a preliminary slate by early Sunday afternoon. I will try to get things moving sooner but I can't promise that.
Click to expand...
I know it’s your stage here so you are free to ask any questions, but I don’t think going into specifics here is really helpful for abilities.
Lumina hardly interacts directly with abilities so it’s whatever atm.
Eruption has some ability interaction but to me it’s functionally under the same umbrella of super powerful STAB as Fire Blast or Armor Cannon.
Torch Song is somewhat different for its effect but wether it fits our role or not should be a discussion during the second stage of Defining Moves.
For Bitter Blade, I guess the question is fair, but seeing that it has the same base power as Flamethrower plus healing AND some meaningful ability interactions, I feel like it needs to be included in our list.

TLDR Include Lumina under the umbrella of Strong Psychic Coverage, include the other moves under main fire STAB.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top