CAP 32 - Part 4 - Defining Moves Part 1

[Brambane]

Ok maybe the point of my post wasn't gotten across correctly. Sure, you could design a Lumina Crash pivot through stats and ability and whatnot. That doesn't change the fact that Lumina Crash is an inherently process-warping move, especially if you go down the lumina bot path. Move is super strong, so I'd prefer if it didn't go and impact ability unnecessarily.

I do not foresee how this move would impact ability any more than a lot of the other moves mentioned in the thread. Is the power discrepancy that stark compared to a move like Armor Cannon or Bitter Blade when it comes to abilities? Lumina Crash's power seems directly tied to ensuring that our stats keep it manageable, which is the concept at hand.

I would even hesitate to say it "warps the process" as much as it is in-line with what we are looking for: strong, defining moves that can be used to leverage our average stat spread.

 

[StarFalcon555]

I was pretty indifferent towards Lumina Crash, but dex's post has me leaning slightly towards the No side right now. I do like how the -2 drop in Special Defense helps us play around our lower BST, but the fact that the effect is guaranteed as well as our Fire and Fairy STABs blowing away any potential switch-ins to the move kiiiiiind of worries me a bit. I'm VERY open to hearing out the pro-Lumina Crash side though.

I did want to talk about an alternative Psychic-type signature move to Lumina Crash that has the same function for our role, is easier to handle, and hasn't gotten a lot of discussion here, and that's Eerie Spell. It doesn't have the snowballing power that Lumina Crash does, but being able to remove 3 PP from any move is huge, scaring any Choice item users from clicking moves they want to preserve, removing recovery PP from stuff like Venomicon, Skeledirge, and Snaelstrom, and pressuring switches in a similar way to Lumina Crash. It also has half the PP of Lumina Crash, which means that we won't be an Eerie Spell bot and have to think about the right time to use it. An option worth discussing imo.

 

[TyloDK]

I really think y'all are overestimating the power of Lumina Crash.

I think we have to keep in mind that it is only good IF you are able to stay in and attack twice, which is a tall order for a pokemon with middling stats. Also, it is an 80 BP Non-stab move coming off of average special attack, and the effect can be nullified as soon as the other pokemon switches out.

Lumina Crash is strong for this typing because it gives the ability to comfortably beat slower checks such as Toxapex, Clodsire, and book. (Eerie Spell is not going to do nearly enough damage against these mons, making it a pretty useless move).

This may be a bad argument because Espathra had such a good alternative set, but I think it's important to keep in mind that Espathra is a perfect abuser of this type of move, and I've never seen someone click Lumina Crash with that mon. I hypothesize if it were really that broken, it would have seen at least some play on a mon with good SpA and amazing speed.

To conclude my little essay, a pokemon with bad stats (edit: sorry, average!) is not gonna be able to sit tight and spam a move that doesn't do much damage in the first place.

 

[Pipotchi]

I was pretty indifferent towards Lumina Crash, but dex's post has me leaning slightly towards the No side right now. I do like how the -2 drop in Special Defense helps us play around our lower BST, but the fact that the effect is guaranteed as well as our Fire and Fairy STABs blowing away any potential switch-ins to the move kiiiiiind of worries me a bit. I'm VERY open to hearing out the pro-Lumina Crash side though.

I did want to talk about an alternative Psychic-type signature move to Lumina Crash that has the same function for our role, is easier to handle, and hasn't gotten a lot of discussion here, and that's Eerie Spell. It doesn't have the snowballing power that Lumina Crash does, but being able to remove 3 PP from any move is huge, scaring any Choice item users from clicking moves they want to preserve, removing recovery PP from stuff like Venomicon, Skeledirge, and Snaelstrom, and pressuring switches in a similar way to Lumina Crash. It also has half the PP of Lumina Crash, which means that we won't be an Eerie Spell bot and have to think about the right time to use it. An option worth discussing imo.

I think ur overestimating the power of Eerie Spell. The effect is good in theory, in practice you are less likely to use this in a meaningful way that swings matchups when not slowly trading blows with an opponent. Correct me if Im wrong but Im under the impression that it never works when a counter switches in, because it doesnt drop PP from a mon that hasnt attacked yet, and then you need to justify trading a hit with something that counters you to remove 3PP, probably trading like 60% minimum and only in the scenario that they move first. Furthermore calcs with Eerie Spell are a lot more miserable than Psychic being 10BP weaker. Psychic is an ok type to use paired with our coverage, but it isnt that good to the point where 80BP flat feels good with medium offensive stats- and I dont think with our defensive stats that we want to trade a supereffective or neutral hit, especially from any Choice user. I could see it being helpful beat recover spam easier, but if thats their counterplay you can beat it anyway. I think this move never got used by GKing (even over regular Psychic) for a good reason, and isnt defining for sure

As for the questions:

• Lumina Crash (is the secondary effect too strong? would our likely lower special attack balance it?)
• Eruption (should we include a move with dramatic highs and lows into our defining list?)
• Torch Song (how can an offensive pivot make use of a move that encourages staying in?)
• Bitter Blade (is this move strong enough with its healing to work despite low base power?)

Lumina Crash- compare this move to contrary Overheat on Pyroak or contrary Leaf Storm on Serp. -2 spdef on a coverage move vs +2 on a base 130 stab. Its definitely fine, although strong. I think yall can handle it on a mon with medium stats. The challenge(?) is finding the right balance for SpA so that regular attacks feel okay without a boost, but a -2 hit doesnt wipe everything. Im sure it can be handled.

Eruption- already mentioned this one and how I dont think its defining earlier

Torch Song- Answering the question straight, you could click this button once or twice and then switch out. Its hard to rate this one because it is just so generically strong that even though other Fire type attacks are more synergistic to what youd expect from a pivot, this could easily compete depending on some things like speed tier. Its alright if a pivot stays in more than 1 turn, I think some of the thoughts around this mon are a bit rigid as to what pivots do when actual games are a lot more fluid. My personal opinion on it is that its a good move and perhaps 3rd in the list of good fire moves behind Bitter Blade and Armor Cannon.

Bitter Blade- Yea plus its base power can be enhanced in the ability stage in various ways

 

[viol and bass]

I don't think Glowking not using Eerie Spell says that much about its viability. Glowking is slower than even most defensive mons, and the move is a lot better on a mon that's outspeeding its opponent than one that's not. As an example, if Corv roosts on the switch-in and then clicks U-turn on GKing, Eerie Spell doesn't deduct PP from anything. If Glowking were to outspeed instead in that scenario, Eerie Spell would deduct PP from Roost. Outspeeding allows you to both predict the move you're deducting PP from and catch something pivoting out. It's still not a great move or anything, it's just good coverage with some neat utility (even deducting PP through an opponents' sub for instance is just kinda cool).

All that said, Eerie Spell is probably most functional as a package deal with Torch Song for potential sound-based synergies. That's probably a knock against it.

 

[nutritious blend]

Other moves like Lunar Dance and Magma Storm also stick out to me, allowing you to trap and consistently chip away at your switch-ins and heal teammates back to full, providing a unique support profile that, as of yet, no other Fire- or Fairy-type in the meta can replicate.

Magma Storm / Fire Spin immediately came to mind for this project. They create strong pivoting utlity, since a switchin like garganacl now takes chip and loses the opportunity to double switch as CAP 32 goes into another teammate. 75 accuracy is BAD and CAP32 lacks Flash Fire as well as 130 SPATK like Heatran to get the most out of Magma Storm, so even though it would probably be strong it doesn't have enough to stand out as a defining move.
In order to compensate for CAP32's middling speed, I also wanted to throw up the idea of Extreme Speed. Considering that this mon's offense is centered around its movepool and ability, a high BP priority move seems like a very defining move. I like Espeed since it also has potential to synergize with an ability I'm expecting people to vouch for: Pixilate. Another Normal-type move I like for this project is Last Resort.
I support Chilly Reception, Parting Shot, and Volt Switch for Pivoting. Except I'm also of the attitude that it doesn't need to run one anyway.
I disagree with the many users here who are suggesting hazards. The community voted on CAP32 being an Offensive Hazard user, and it isn't. Besides, this mon is not bulky or fast enough to compete with other hazard setters in the tier. And then add the fact that it wants to run dual STAB, pivoting, coverage, and other status moves and you have discover that there is no room for hazards anyway.
For Offensive Pivoting, status moves that disrupt seem most effective here. Given its typing and role, I want to nominate Taunt, Wisp, Glare, and Tar Shot. I think it could make use of a setup move that boosts its speed as well like Shift Gear or Quiver Dance.

 

[Zzuxon]

I want to agree with the anti-lumina crash sentiment. I think it's boring, CAP 32 will just become the Lumina clicker. Feels like a retread of Saharaja's process. I also agree with flying moose that really powerful, signature moves are somewhat anti-concept, a bang-average mon should be good with fairly average moves.
I am not opposed to psychic coverage though, I think it makes a lot of sense to just give CAP 32 Psychic. But there are also other good options.

I do like Eerie Spell. Though it is a signature move, it's a more a quirky low key one that wouldn't feel out of place in a "Bang-average" pokemon or with wider distribution generally. It has an interesting effect to explore and makes a lot of sense conceptually for a fairy type.

Another option that might be interesting is Psyshock. Given that part of a pivot's job is to threaten enemies out to secure your own switches, psyshock hitting opponents defense instead of special defense could help CAP32 threaten pokemon that are specially bulky but not as physically bulky. Usually such pokemon may be feel comfortable taking hits from CAP32, but with Psyshock it becomes a scarier prospect.

 

[Brown4Sides]

Another option that might be interesting is Psyshock. Given that part of a pivot's job is to threaten enemies out to secure your own switches, psyshock hitting opponents defense instead of special defense could help CAP32 threaten pokemon that are specially bulky but not as physically bulky. Usually such pokemon may be feel comfortable taking hits from CAP32, but with Psyshock it becomes a scarier prospect.

I don't mean to sound rude, but hard no to Psyshock. Psyshock over other Psychic coverage just makes it much harder to beat Prologue. I guess it hits Iron Moth and Clodsire harder, but the latter isn't even all that relevant atm. All of Psychic, Lumina Crash and Eerie Spell do a better job of hitting Prologue.

As for Eerie Spell and Psychic, I don't think either is strong enough personally. I have been flip-flopping over whether or not I support Lumina Crash, but it is by far out best option for Psychic type coverage, and if we don't get Lumina Crash, then Psychic as a coverage type just isn't worth pursuing.

 

[skippergamez]

I like Lumina Crash, but only cause it’s a Psychic type move, the -2 is cool, but by know means is necessary.

Anyways, Eruption gets a no from me (at least as a defining move). Sure, a niche set could be fun, but by no means should we surround the process around Eruption. We shouldn’t proceed with Eruption specifically until we have an ability.

Bitter Blade is very cool, and will, like Someone said, single handedly carry CAP32’s Physical potential, which I think is very cool.

Torch Song, while the 1.5x SpAtk boost is cool, I have a feeling that CAP32 won’t be using it to it’s advantage.

Anyway, I’m gonna bring up Scorching Sands. Scorching Sands provides CAP32 a similar advantage to Lava Plume with a 30% to burn, while providing Ground-type coverage but there’s also Earth Power so why wouldn’t it use that

Also, I’m gonna list my list of Defining moves:

Fire type STAB (Flamethrower, Fire Blast, Bitter Blade)
Fairy type STAB (Moonblast, Play Rough)
Psychic Coverage
Grass Coverage
Ground Coverage
Pivoting Move (Parting Shot, Teleport, Volt
Switch)
Entry Hazards (Stealth Rock, Spikes)
Recovery (50%, Strength Sap)
Utility (Taunt, Knock Off, Spore, Will-O-Wisp)

Obviously, Fire and Fairy STAB are great. My favorites are the basic specials tbh (Moonblast, Flamethrower) Ground/Grass/Psychic are my favorite coverage options, all feeling necessary for success. Pivoting moves seem self explanatory, I like Teleport the best out of these options. Entry hazards are great team support and role compression. Recovery boosts longevity, and their are a plethora of good utility for CAP32.

 

[faithviolet]

Eruption is a way for CAP 32 to exert a reasonably high amount of immediate damage pressure without the use of same-type Tera, and given that our offensive pivot may be partially shading into a wallbreaker territory, and having to rely on not the best offensive stat, it's at least a good choice for the concept and our role.

I'm not clear on the exact consequences of making it a required move, but I do think stat spreads and abilities should be allowed to rely on it being part of CAP 32's movepool in the same way that they're allowed to rely on Flare Blitz or Moonblast being part of the movepool. I feel the same way about bitter blade.

On the other hand, I don't think this should be true of Lumina Crash or Torch Song. Lumina Crash, without STAB, is low enough immediate power to not disrupt the ability/stats stage much, while still being high enough power level as a whole to be useful as a power boost if we need it at the movepoll stage, so I think it should be left alone until then.

 

[shnowshner]

Yo I'm gonna type this super quick so I will put shnowshner translater spoo in charge of clearing up any explicity poor conventional/grammatical mishaps.

Here is your preliminary slate:

• Standard STABs (Moonblast & Play Rough, Flamethrower, Fire Blast, Overheat, Lava Plume, Flare Blitz) and implied STABs (Depends on Ability, e.g. Extreme Speed for Pixilate or any non-signature slicing move for Sharpness)
• One of U-Turn/Volt Switch/Parting Shot/Chilling Reception
• Either 50% Recovery or Strength Sap
• One of Bitter Blade/Armor Cannon/Torch Song/Lumina Crash
• If not using Lumina Crash: Non-signature moves from one of the following coverage types: Electric (Thunderbolt & Wild Charge upper limit), Ground (Earthquake & Earth Power upper limit), Psychic (any really).

This is still largely WIP since I am on my phone, either way you got about 24 hours until we move on to Ability.

 

[Turtlek]

Why is FlipTurn not slated?

 

[Amamama]

Yo I'm gonna type this super quick so I will put shnowshner translater spoo in charge of clearing up any explicity poor conventional/grammatical mishaps.

Here is your preliminary slate:

• Standard STABs (Moonblast & Play Rough, Flamethrower, Fire Blast, Overheat, Lava Plume, Flare Blitz) and implied STABs (Depends on Ability, e.g. Extreme Speed for Pixilate or any non-signature slicing move for Sharpness)
• One of U-Turn/Volt Switch/Parting Shot/Chilling Reception
• Either 50% Recovery or Strength Sap
• One of Bitter Blade/Armor Cannon/Torch Song/Lumina Crash
• If not using Lumina Crash: Non-signature moves from one of the following coverage types: Electric (Thunderbolt & Wild Charge upper limit), Ground (Earthquake & Earth Power upper limit), Psychic (any really).

This is still largely WIP since I am on my phone, either way you got about 24 hours until we move on to Ability.

I’m interested to know why there’s an upper limit on the power of electric coverage?
I feel like moves like Thunder or ability boosted moves (Rising Voltage, Normal Type Moves, (Zap Cannon) and maybe others I can’t think of rn) don’t feel egregious, without knowing the power of our stat spread.
I don’t understand why we allow the strongest moves from Psychic and Ground but not electric, when those can help push down the power of our stat spread.
Otherwise the list seems good to me.

 

[skippergamez]

Electric < Grass
Grass type moves let us hit Ground types super effectively, and they let us hit the Water types we’re so concerned about

Also, I’m not sure we need one of the signature moves, we have an amazing STAB combo and moves that we can work with. But if I got to choose, I’d pick Armor Cannon.
Also, quick question, why only one of the coverage types of Lumina Crash isn’t picked? All three seems fine to me.

“Other than that,” the slate seems fine

 

[mark6870]

Also, quick question, why only one of the coverage types of Lumina Crash isn’t picked? All three seems fine to me.

I think the reason is giving CAP32 too much coverage could make it too hard to switch into. Even if it cant run all the coverage it wants on one set, it would still have the ability to pick and choose its counters, making it frustrating to fight against.

 

[memesketch]

Why is FlipTurn not slated?

Flip Turn has only ever been given to Water-types (not counting Mew), so it doesn't make the most sense flavor-wise to give it to a Fire-type. I would also venture to say that it's a direct downgrade from our other pivoting options since it doesn't provide any distinct advantages over the other moves; Volt Switch is stronger against our checks, Parting Shot provides team support, and U-turn is unblockable, none of which apply to Flip Turn.

 

[IronTemplar]

Yo I'm gonna type this super quick so I will put shnowshner translater spoo in charge of clearing up any explicity poor conventional/grammatical mishaps.

Here is your preliminary slate:

• Standard STABs (Moonblast & Play Rough, Flamethrower, Fire Blast, Overheat, Lava Plume, Flare Blitz) and implied STABs (Depends on Ability, e.g. Extreme Speed for Pixilate or any non-signature slicing move for Sharpness)
• One of U-Turn/Volt Switch/Parting Shot/Chilling Reception
• Either 50% Recovery or Strength Sap
• One of Bitter Blade/Armor Cannon/Torch Song/Lumina Crash
• If not using Lumina Crash: Non-signature moves from one of the following coverage types: Electric (Thunderbolt & Wild Charge upper limit), Ground (Earthquake & Earth Power upper limit), Psychic (any really).

This is still largely WIP since I am on my phone, either way you got about 24 hours until we move on to Ability.

Parting Shot is my personal pick for the switching moves. As a status move, it doesn’t clash with any additional customization, such as a physical vs special spread, and will always be useful. It can be used offensively as well as defensively for some incredible counter play

 

[Lumpfriend]

Anyway, I’m gonna bring up Scorching Sands. Scorching Sands provides CAP32 a similar advantage to Lava Plume with a 30% to burn, while providing Ground-type coverage but there’s also Earth Power so why wouldn’t it use that

I like the idea that Scorching Sands could compress ground coverage and threat of burn into one slot, but I don't think it would be that useful. As coverage, 70BP on a non-stab is so weak that its pretty much just for Fire-types and I guess Toxapex (as a neutral Flamethrower or Moonblast will do just as much damage as a super-effective Scorching Sands). And then for the burn spreading, not being able to hit Flying-types and Levitators with that seems like a pretty big downside. The fact that it punishes the same Pokemon that are immune to burns with super-effective damage is kind of cool I guess, but it doesn't seem worth it to me. If spreading burns is gonna be important, Lava Plume is probably just better even if it means not having any super-effective coverage against fire, though I wonder how often we'd want even that over just Wisp since we'll probably want to have whichever more powerful Fire STAB we end up with on most movesets.

Also I like Tar Shot, that's a funky one. If we have just enough speed to outspeed most stuff after the -1 speed drop, it might be threatening enough to force some switches.

 

[Brown4Sides]

Grass type moves let us hit Ground types super effectively, and they let us hit the Water types we’re so concerned about

Every Ground and Water type above B+ on the Viability Rankings is weak to our STABs bar Krilowatt, Rotom-Wash and Snaelstrom, and the latter isn't weak to Grass anyway. They also do nothing to improve our matchups via Venomicon and Fire types.

Flip Turn has only ever been given to Water-types (not counting Mew), so it doesn't make the most sense flavor-wise to give it to a Fire-type.

I agree that Flip Turn isn't the greatest for the other reasons you mentioned, but this paricular reason isn't a good one IMO. Lumina Crash has never been given to anything other than a Psychic type, does that mean we shouldn't get Lumina Crash?

So that this post isn't me just disagreeing with people: I like the slate, the one thing that confuses me is why Electric and Ground have power limits. I don't see the problem with allowing Headlong Rush and Thunder, for instance. I don't know how viable Thunder would be, but I don't see why Headlong Rush is an issue. It has low distribution, but it's not a signature move at least.

 

[mark6870]

I don't know how viable Thunder would be, but I don't see why Headlong Rush is an issue. It has low distribution, but it's not a signature move at least.

i also want to point out that the reason Headlong most likely has low distribution is because it is such a new move,thus not many pokemon get it since it wasn't made with older pokemon in mind.


I also dont see why we have an upper limit on our electric and ground coverage.

 

[CharSiuEmboar]

Chalking another vote in for Parting Shot if we have to choose only one - the support it provides for a safe switch is essence, and I've spoken a lot already on Bitter Blade and why I think that provides the necessary hitting power.

I'm not sure that special is the right way to go; sure, weakness to intimidate etc, but we're an offensive pivot. If we were special, a special wall would switch in, and CAP32 would no longer be baiting an Intimidate that the rest of the team can capitalise on. Whether we go Phys or Spec and a wall switches in, end result is the same; leaving CAP intentionally susceptible to Intimidate provides additional support.

The support for special seems predicated entirely on the assumption the CAP32 is dropping SpD with Lumina Crash.

One Query; and a I hope this isn't considered poll jumping given that we've intentionally set sights on lower BST; with such a requirement to be tight with how stats are allocated, would Pain Split be considered an option for healing? Mismagius' made use of it very well.

 

[Da Pizza Man]

i also want to point out that the reason Headlong most likely has low distribution is because it is such a new move,thus not many pokemon get it since it wasn't made with older pokemon in mind.

I also dont see why we have an upper limit on our electric and ground coverage.

Tera Blast, a move that was introduced this generation, has the most distribution of pretty much any move in history. Pretty much every Pokemon in the game, including many of those who normally cannot learn TMs (Such as Kricketot and Tynamo) get access to the move, with the only two exceptions being Magikarp and Ditto. I don't really think using the argument that argument of it's low distrubution being due to it being a new move really works here (Even if you want to disregard Tera Blast due to it's connection to the gimmick of this gen, stuff like Ice Spinner and Trailblaze also have a fair amount of users to them).

 

[shnowshner]

Thanks for the feedback everyone, I feel we're ready to push this forward and jump into our Primary Ability! Here's the updated defining moves list:

• Standard STABs (Moonblast, Draining Kiss & Play Rough: Flamethrower, Fire Blast, Overheat, Lava Plume, Flare Blitz, Eruption, and Inferno) and implied STABs (depends on Ability, e.g. Extreme Speed for Pixilate or any non-signature slicing move for Sharpness)
• One of U-Turn/Volt Switch/Parting Shot/Chilling Reception
• Knock Off
• Status-inducing non-attacking moves (Wisp, Thunder Wave, Sleep moves)
• 50% Recovery or Strength Sap
• At most one of Bitter Blade/Torch Song/Lumina Crash
• Non-signature moves from one of the following coverage types: Electric, Ground, Psychic, or Rock.

The big changes here are removing the limits and expanding on coverage, some additional STABs, a stated capability to not use any of the four Signature moves if desired, and the inclusion of prior decisions in Knock Off and status moves. This all came about from the posts above, further reevaluation of past posts, and internal discussion within the TLT. Eruption and Inferno almost didn't make it, but after some back-and-forth we figured the more options for relevant ability-movepool interactions, the better. Armor Cannon was also removed simply because it's somewhat redundant with Eruption. Moves will be revisited later on anyhow, so it's still more than possible to end up on our kit.

As for why certain things have not been slated:

Legendary signatures were mostly on the table to see if there were strong arguments for any, but overall I wasn't too impressed with much, and feel we have no reason to pursue them when "regular" moves are sufficient. A couple users also found these to either be troublesome from a process standpoint or slightly dishonest from a concept perspective, which only further pushed them out of consideration. (Personally, I do ere more on the side of "Bang Average is a lot more interesting when our stats aren't the only thing unexceptional about us," but it's not a requirement of our stats-based concept, and its not like other Pokemon in the Bang Average camp don't have somewhat excessive attributes on them, which makes a decision to not include them pretty poor reasoning.)

Any other moves not included simply fail to meet my standards for defining. There's a couple neat options for sure, but on their own shouldn't have any weight in our Ability choice. We want our guiding moves to be our easiest or most effective clicks possible, so cute stuff like Scorching Sands just fails to stack up.

I feel this list is quite comprehensive and gives us a ton of room to thoroughly explore our Ability options. Thanks for bearing with my somewhat haphazard schedule and we'll meet up again for Defining Moves 2! (I have been forbidden from posting during Abilities after telling spoo that Long Reach blocked Stamina [it does not])

 

[spoo]

Chatted with shnow for a while about this, so giving my stamp of approval. He put together a great list that will be able to inform our ability choice.

I also want to make perfectly clear that Defining Moves 2 will produce a different set of moves. This list here is for guiding our ability choice; the next Defining Moves list will guide our stats. E.g. Armor Cannon doesn’t really impact what ability we choose when there’s Fire Blast and Eruption to work with here, but it does impact movesets and stat calcs, so it might show up later. If there’s something missing/present on this list that you don’t like, don’t worry about it right now; it could easily change in the future.

Onto the Ability stage whenever our friend Scizivire is ready!