CAP 33 - Part 5 - Defining Moves

[Daylight]

I’ve never actually played CAP and I don’t participate here much, so take what I say with a grain of salt. However, I have played a lot of ORAS Pure Hackmons, where fast walls are aplenty—Arceus, Prankster Giratina, Lugia, and fast Wonder Guard users like Mega Manectric and Deoxys-Speed—and have their choice any move available. So, I believe I have a pretty decent idea for the kinds of moves defensive pokemon like to use when they get to move first.

Will-O-Wisp and Glare/Nuzzle/Thunder Wave are very common on defensive Pokémon that can reliably move first. Yawn isn’t something you usually see (because of Spore and Dark Void) but it provides similarly powerful utility on a fast Pokemon. Encore is a bit more specific to PH (because Shell Smash) but it is basically mandatory on Giratina, and is a really cool way to leverage speed on a defensive Pokemon—especially in conjunction with passive damage from Will-O-Wisp. Perish Song is another cool option to force out setup mons that can still leverage high speed, unlike Whirlwind or Roar. Additionally, if Whirlpool is in the mix, CAP 33 can force the opponent to respect the threat Perishtrapping even when it’s not actually carrying those moves. Haze can do something similar to Perish Song without the threat of trapping.

While some form recovery seems mandatory for a concept like this, I haven’t seen Wish mentioned yet. In particular, I’m thinking of how splendidly it would synergize with King’s Shield—a move that walls in PH frequently use in order play mind games with (or even neutralize or force out) powerful physical threats. (I realize that King’s Shield isn’t in SV as of yet, but I wasn’t sure on how that worked here.) Something else I like but haven’t seen mentioned as far as recovery goes is Lunar Blessing—though I’m not sure how well that would synergize with Multiscale, or if it would be too powerful or too weak. Speaking of, a fast Heal Bell is always awesome for a defensive Pokemon and its distribution has been gutted as of late.

Any number of entry hazards (especially with Knock Off or the aforementioned Encore or Perish Song) are a common way fast defensive Pokemon in PH make progress, given that their powerful defenses (be they Wonder Guard or raw stats) and utility can force many switches. Speaking of, Taunt is also excellent at forcing those progress-making switches. The only problem I see with Taunt is that if it’s combined with recovery and Will-O-Wisp, it could make CAP 33 an excellent stallbreaker, and I’m not sure if that’s desirable. In Pure Hackmons, Gastro Acid is extremely common on fast defensive Pokemon like Arceus as it can force out users of both of the most common abilities in the format—Wonder Guard and Mold Breaker. However, I think it or one of its clones (Worry Seed, Simple Beam), probably bears mentioning as neutralizing any powerful ability can be worthwhile when you’re going first.

Cotton Guard isn’t something I’ve ever seen used anywhere but on a fast defensive Pokemon it seems like a cool alternative to Will-O-Wisp if desired. Charm, Eerie Impulse, Amnesia, and Cosmic Power are all similarly cool alternatives. (Edit: also I think the possibility of using Quiver Dance or Victory Dance as Defense + Speed boosting moves is a really cool idea but it would necessitate restriction of stats and movepool so they couldn’t be used offensively.)

As for STABs, Moonblast and Scald are obvious spammable choices with appropriate and powerful secondary effects. Chilling Water and Spirit Break are cool alternatives I like but it seems like you’d have to make its attacking stats really high for them to be usable at all.

 

[Scizivire]

I think it's about time to wrap up the first few questions and move on to the next set. Before that though, let's summarize what has been said so far:

Most posters agree that status and disruption are viable ways for CAP33 to perform its role as a fast wall, taking advantage of its high speed to cripple the opponent before they get the chance to deal big damage, set up or otherwise make progress. Status moves like Will-O-Wisp and Glare/Thunder Wave, as well as moves like Encore and Taunt have been mentioned as viable options here. Additionally, recovery moves such as the standard 50% recovery moves and Strength Sap are desired here in order to keep CAP33 healthy and preserve or restore Multiscale.

In terms of STABs, moves like Surf and Moonblast, as well as Scald, seem appropriate options for this CAP to run in this meta because of their consistency and/or useful secondary effects. I'm inclined to agree that moves like Draining Kiss and Chilling Water are too weak for CAP33 to really make an impact and force things out. In terms of physical moves, Liquidation and Play Rough or Spirit Break seem like decent options to have, though only if we fully dedicate to physical sets.

--

Defining Moves (Tentative)

Useful STABs:

• Surf (special)
• Scald (special)
• Moonblast (special)
• Liquidation (physical)
• Play Rough and/or Spirit Break (physical)

Recovery:

• 50% Recovery Moves (Recover, Slack Off, Roost)
• Strength Sap
• Jungle Healing / Lunar Blessing

Utility:

• Will-O-Wisp
• Thunder Wave / Glare / Nuzzle(?)
• Encore
• Taunt
• Disable
• Haze
• Knock Off

The list above is a tentative defining moves list, meaning it is subject to change and we will certainly be doing so over the course of this thread. I intentionally left it quite broad for now (it contains a lot of the moves with support mentioned before), because I'd like to trim it a bit as well as potentially add things we haven't discussed yet, such as coverage or boosting. With this goal in mind I have prepared a few more questions for you guys to answer:

1. Are coverage moves important for CAP33 to perform its role? If so, which types of coverage are preferred and which types of coverage should be avoided?
Looking at our threatlist, a lot of the safe and favorable switch-ins are based on our STAB coverage, which is fair. Do we want to expand our range of favorable matchups through coverage moves? If so, which Pokémon can we reasonably target with this coverage and which move types achieve this in an efficient way, without threatening our checks and counters too much?

2. Is boosting something CAP33 should concern itself with? If so, which boosting moves are appropriate here?
A few posters have mentioned that trading some bulk for some offensive presence is also a viable way to achieve a fast wall. Previous examples of this such as Latios-Mega and Talonflame have at least passable offense stats, and both of these have the capability to boost themselves through Calm Mind and Swords Dance respectively in order to exert more pressure throughout a match. Should we open CAP33 up towards this style of fast walling, and which boosting moves should be considered?

3. From the tentative defining moves list and the above questions, which of these moves should we focus on going forward? What moves can be trimmed? Are there any particular move combinations we should avoid?
I would very much like to avoid having a large list of required moves because it might mess with us in later stages, so I feel like it is a good idea to focus on a smaller subset of what we have listed now. We can definitely have some optional moves, but I would like to keep this to a minimum and mostly leave that to the movesets stage. With that in mind, which moves should be the primary focus of the project, and are these too powerful or limiting in combination with other moves on the list?

--

I'd like to spend the next 2 days (a bit more, I won't be around at this time on Friday) on these questions before we can start making things definitive -- pun fully intended.

 

[Fenghuang]

Going to make a longer post later responding to the other questions, but

Is boosting something CAP33 should concern itself with? If so, which boosting moves are appropriate here?
A few posters have mentioned that trading some bulk for some offensive presence is also a viable way to achieve a fast wall. Previous examples of this such as Latios-Mega and Talonflame have at least passable offense stats, and both of these have the capability to boost themselves through Calm Mind and Swords Dance respectively in order to exert more pressure throughout a match. Should we open CAP33 up towards this style of fast walling, and which boosting moves should be considered?

Emphatically no. The Mlati and talonflame sets we're emulating are not the booster sets, and boosting would vastly complicate our build if we try to avoid making this thing a fast and bulky sweeper (which we should). Just not giving it any boosting moves frees up our build so much, and I strongly think we should include none.

 

[1BluLizard]

1. Out of all of the coverage types, I think that Ice type moves such as Ice Beam or maybe Freeze Dry is the best option. It keeps most of the threats and checks and does not make the match up into them much better, with a few exceptions (Rotom-W, Toxapex, Manaphy specifically if cap 33 is given Freeze Dry, or Venomicon and Zapdos with any Ice coverage). However, Ice coverage would allow it to hit Pokemon such as Enamorus and Amoongus, and making it able to easily beat Landorus (although this might be true with its Water stab regardless).

2. Boosting moves would most likely turn Cap 33 into a setup sweeper that utilizes its speed for offense rather than it being a fast wall. There is the option of defense boosting moves like Acid Armor/Cosmic Power or other moves, but then it just becomes an extremely bulky and fast mon that also has multiscale and recovery so that seems like a bad idea.

3. The concept of a fast wall lends it to support moves that it can hit the opponent with before they even move, and so most of the status moves could be a good focus. Every support move has different aspects of walling that they emphasize. I personally think that Knock Off does not especially help Cap 33's concept, despite being a good move, because it does not necessarily help cap 33 wall any better. Will-O-Wisp and all the paralysis moves are all good support moves, and Will-O-Wisp especially helps 33 tank a lot more hits from physical attackers. Status like this paired with multiscale and recovery moves could be too much, but it might not. Haze and/or Disable/Encore are the best candidates for specific support moves in my eyes because few Pokemon currently use Disable and Haze and Encore are mostly used on slow Pokemon, and so having a fast wall that is able to disable/encore a threat to stop it setting up or lock it in, or haze and remove its setup before it even gets to attack, would make it a unique wall. In terms of the other moves, with multiscale 50% recovery and high speed would make it very difficult to kill, and I think that focusing on Lunar Blessing/Jungle Healing for their status removing effect is the better option, although this does make Pokemon that check cap 33 by status moves not able to do this anymore. Out of the 6 offensive moves, the one that looks like it fits the concept of cap 33 the best is Scald because of its burn chance. Having Scald as one of the main moves would also most likely remove the need to focus on Will-O-Wisp and overall simply makes Cap 33 a much more threatening wall.

 

[Samirsin]

1. Are coverage moves important for CAP33 to perform its role? If so, which types of coverage are preferred and which types of coverage should be avoided?
Coverage moves can be important for CAP33 to expand its range of favorable matchups. While STAB moves are essential, well-chosen coverage moves can help CAP33 handle specific threats more effectively. It's crucial to select coverage moves that target Pokémon that threaten CAP33 or that CAP33 can't deal with using its STAB moves alone. Avoiding overloading on coverage moves is essential to maintain CAP33's efficiency as a wall. HOWEVER, I feel like currently we are giving it a lot of good things, good ability, good typing, good utility moves. If we give it good coverage moves (unless stats are low) we are making a jack of all trades Pokémon, and personally, I think that without coverage we would balance it well enough so that it isn't used in a way we do not intend.

2. Is boosting something CAP33 should concern itself with? If so, which boosting moves are appropriate here?
If boosting moves are desires, we should avoid offensive boosts, as, again, it would stop being a wall and become something else. Cosmic Power, Iron Defense, Cotton Guard... I think the only offensive boost I would support would be Curse, as it sacrifices Speed for Attack.

3. From the tentative defining moves list and the above questions, which of these moves should we focus on going forward? What moves can be trimmed? Are there any particular move combinations we should avoid?
Strength Sap is the move we have been pushing since the beginning, Encore and Disable should not be in the same mon, even less on a fast mon. Nuzzle is too much, can't be taunted or prevented (unless Ground) and it has perfect accuracy.

 

[Amamama]

1. Are coverage moves important for CAP33 to perform its role? If so, which types of coverage are preferred and which types of coverage should be avoided?

Our STAB typing seems incredibly hard to improve on with coverage.
Historically Water types really like Ice coverage for Grasses and Dragons but two of the most viable Grasses don’t like Fairy STAB and Dragons obviously don’t enjoy it either.

Fairy on the other hand usually appreciates Ground, Psychic or Fighting Coverage for Steels and Posions as well as Fire types in case of the former.
Fighting coverage doesn’t help much bc the Steels this Mon faces are already either weak to Water (Heatran and Libra) or immune (Gholdengo).
Ground and Psychic on the other Hand are a bit different.
Psychic would allow us to keep Pex and Venom on their toes - two mons that otherwise are going to be difficult for 33.
Ground has probably the broadest set of additional targets both with Water and Fairy.
It’s especially useful to actually threaten Iron Moth in sun, which otherwise could prove a difficult matchup. (Though it’s already a bit iffy)

That said, there isn’t a real need for a wall to have coverage for more mons, than those it already checks defensively and Water/Fairy is an immensely powerful offensive Typing on its own, which leads me to believe that additional coverage is unlikely to be used and thus unnecessary.

2. Is boosting something CAP33 should concern itself with? If so, which boosting moves are appropriate here?

I Hope we can avoid boosting even though several of our examples have access to it. Given Water Fairies offensive power and good speed any offensive boosting should be off the table. Defensive boosting I’m ok with, though I doubt it’s usefulness and competitive viability so we shouldn’t concern ourselves with such options.

3. From the tentative defining moves list and the above questions, which of these moves should we focus on going forward? What moves can be trimmed? Are there any particular move combinations we should avoid?

I don’t think any of these Moves needs to be trimmed away atm.
All of these seem like they’d have some impact on Stats and having access to any of them for building stats seems appropriate.

If anything I doubt the necessity of Glare on this list given 33s matchup into (most) Ground types. I also think Nuzzle can be cut as it’s functionally Twave (considering Stat Limits and the Stats Stage and the difference only will show in play so it’s a distinction to be made in Movesets)

 

[Daylight]

I Hope we can avoid boosting even though several of our examples have access to it. Given Water Fairies offensive power and good speed any offensive boosting should be off the table. Defensive boosting I’m ok with, though I doubt it’s usefulness and competitive viability so we shouldn’t concern ourselves with such options.

I don’t think any of these Moves needs to be trimmed away atm.
All of these seem like they’d have some impact on Stats and having access to any of them for building stats seems appropriate.

If anything I doubt the necessity of Glare on this list given 33s matchup into (most) Ground types. I also think Nuzzle can be cut as it’s functionally Twave (considering Stat Limits and the Stats Stage and the difference only will show in play so it’s a distinction to be made in Movesets)

I think it’s worth noting that Nuzzle is functionally different from Thunder Wave in that it bypasses Magic Bounce and, probably more relevantly, Good As Gold.

That aside, I agree that offensive boosting seems pretty anti-concept in that it’ll probably just turn CAP 33 into another boost sweeper (especially with Tera around). I do think that Cotton Guard and Amnesia sound interesting on a fast wall that can use them to soften incoming damage. Cotton Guard is probably the less valuable of the two considering Will-O-Wisp and Strength Sap can do the same thing plus the advantages of passive damage and healing, but Amnesia/Eerie Impulse/Cosmic Power can soften special hits from Gholdengo and Valiant and such.

 

[Explosion Badger]

1. Are coverage moves important for CAP33 to perform its role? If so, which types of coverage are preferred and which types of coverage should be avoided?

Coverage moves frankly seem somewhat difficult to fit onto CAP 33's frame as is, and withou . While something like Ice or Psychic coverage might be worth considering for improving our matchup into either grass and flying types or poison types , it has to compete for one of our slots, either with one of our phenomenal STAB options, or replace one of the incredibly useful support options we have, all of which are extremely useful to have already, whereas extra coverage is a decent but not incredibly necessary option with lower offenses.

2. Is boosting something CAP33 should concern itself with? If so, which boosting moves are appropriate here?

Boosting seems highly irrelevant for this CAP, and frankly feels like a distraction from the goal of making a wall. Boosting our stats even further does very little for us in terms of defensive utility, as they provide almost no defensive utility beyond outspeeding a mon we normally don't, or making it harder for offensive mons to KO us, both of which can be achieved more consistently by using moves such as Knock Off, Haze, or any status inflicting move.

3. From the tentative defining moves list and the above questions, which of these moves should we focus on going forward? What moves can be trimmed? Are there any particular move combinations we should avoid?

Jungle Healing and Lunar Blessing should be trimmed, I feel. Unless we plan to run two different healing moves on the same set, their 25% recovery is so low that it practically makes Multiscale one-time use, and while the status cure is useful, there feels like better ways to help mitigate 33's weakness to status. Disable should most likely be trimmed as well, as it is obnoxious in the context of having Encore and seemingly a gimmick otherwise. Other than that, the only move that I feel isn't as neccesary is Will-o-wisp, as Scald is a far better move for us in terms of compression, but it's still worth considering if Scald isn't desired for this mon.

 

[Fenghuang]

1. Are coverage moves important for CAP33 to perform its role? If so, which types of coverage are preferred and which types of coverage should be avoided?
Looking at our threatlist, a lot of the safe and favorable switch-ins are based on our STAB coverage, which is fair. Do we want to expand our range of favorable matchups through coverage moves? If so, which Pokémon can we reasonably target with this coverage and which move types achieve this in an efficient way, without threatening our checks and counters too much?

Amamama's post made most of the points I wanted to, but I would like to add that fire coverage might be interesting for hitting ghold and gambit a bit harder. Neither of them are particularly good against us anyway, so it's probably not a great idea, but if we were to add coverage I think fire would be a strong contender.

One more thing that hasn't gotten much mention is trapping. Fire spin could be a cool move if we don't want to give it whirlpool. In general I think trapping moves would be good on 33, but I'm not sure how much agreement there is here.

3. From the tentative defining moves list and the above questions, which of these moves should we focus on going forward? What moves can be trimmed? Are there any particular move combinations we should avoid?
I would very much like to avoid having a large list of required moves because it might mess with us in later stages, so I feel like it is a good idea to focus on a smaller subset of what we have listed now. We can definitely have some optional moves, but I would like to keep this to a minimum and mostly leave that to the movesets stage. With that in mind, which moves should be the primary focus of the project, and are these too powerful or limiting in combination with other moves on the list?

I think of the trifecta of twave/glare/nuzzle, we should probably only have one, and that one probably shouldn't be glare. We already threaten ground types with water STAB, it feels pretty unnecessary to give 33 glare. Nuzzle is an interesting idea, crucially allowing 33 to paralyze ghold. It might be unnecessarily strong, I am not sure, but at the very least it's fun and does well both on a fast wall and into the current meta. If we do give it nuzzle, imo I'd want to not give it twave.

On the other hand, I think will-o should be here whether or not scald is. More consistent burns could potentially be wanted on more supportive sets, and I see no real reason to cut it.

Concur with previous opinions that jungle healing is unnecessary, but I'd also like to suggest that knock doesn't need to be a required utility move. I don't know, not a huge fan of giving this thing knock to begin with so maybe that plays into it, but I don't want to integrate it that far into our build.

 

[snake]

1. Are coverage moves important for CAP33 to perform its role? If so, which types of coverage are preferred and which types of coverage should be avoided?
Looking at our threatlist, a lot of the safe and favorable switch-ins are based on our STAB coverage, which is fair. Do we want to expand our range of favorable matchups through coverage moves? If so, which Pokémon can we reasonably target with this coverage and which move types achieve this in an efficient way, without threatening our checks and counters too much?

Coverage moves would be used moreso for their secondary effects rather than explicit damage output. For example, Mystical Fire could help shore up CAP33's matchup against Gholdengo much more effectively than, say, Spirit Break. Otherwise, I don't think any coverage is explicitly necessary for CAP33 to function, unless we want a stronger hit into Ogerpon-Wellspring than STAB Moonblast with...Hurricane? I'd rather just click a status move.

2. Is boosting something CAP33 should concern itself with? If so, which boosting moves are appropriate here?
A few posters have mentioned that trading some bulk for some offensive presence is also a viable way to achieve a fast wall. Previous examples of this such as Latios-Mega and Talonflame have at least passable offense stats, and both of these have the capability to boost themselves through Calm Mind and Swords Dance respectively in order to exert more pressure throughout a match. Should we open CAP33 up towards this style of fast walling, and which boosting moves should be considered?

As I alluded in my previous post, the only situation where offensive boosting should be considered imo is to enable Draining Kiss + Multiscale, as Draining Kiss has historically needed to be shored up by boosting moves due to low base power - typically Calm Mind. Otherwise, I don't feel like offensive boosting really fits into CAP33's intended role. "Offensive boosting" should also include Iron Defense + Body Press, as I don't think this combination should get a free pass just because we're boosting defensively.

3. From the tentative defining moves list and the above questions, which of these moves should we focus on going forward? What moves can be trimmed? Are there any particular move combinations we should avoid?
I would very much like to avoid having a large list of required moves because it might mess with us in later stages, so I feel like it is a good idea to focus on a smaller subset of what we have listed now. We can definitely have some optional moves, but I would like to keep this to a minimum and mostly leave that to the movesets stage. With that in mind, which moves should be the primary focus of the project, and are these too powerful or limiting in combination with other moves on the list?

Surf and Moonblast should be required, with Scald as an optional move. 50% recovery should be required, and Strength Sap should be optional. Unclear which of the utility moves should be required vs optional, but Knock Off, Nuzzle/Glare, and Encore should come at a small penalty to BSR to balance these stronger options out among the other utility options. On the fence whether or not to include Haze into the BSR penalty group. If allowed, Calm Mind should absolutely be optional.

 

[Reviloja753]

Useful STABs:

• Surf (special)
• Scald (special)
• Moonblast (special)
• Liquidation (physical)
• Play Rough and/or Spirit Break (physical)

Recovery:

• 50% Recovery Moves (Recover, Slack Off, Roost)
• Strength Sap
• Jungle Healing / Lunar Blessing

Utility:

• Will-O-Wisp
• Thunder Wave / Glare / Nuzzle(?)
• Encore
• Taunt
• Disable
• Haze
• Knock Off

I think JH/LB and Disable are the only moves I'd outright say are too niche compared to other options to be impactful, especially on stats. That said, I personally think physical is not the way to go. It makes us even more vulnerable to status (including opposing CAP33 if we give Scald/Wisp) by making us even more passive if we get burned. Also, Play Rough is too weak a move for a "stronger" STAB, while Spirit Break is too weak to do anything offensively. Also, I think Haze could probably go, since we have a lot of Unaware mons in the meta and I can't see how Haze could fit on the set. I think Nuzzle/Glare are fine, maayybe have a tiny penalty associated with them over Twave to be safe tho?

Are coverage moves important for CAP33 to perform its role? If so, which types of coverage are preferred and which types of coverage should be avoided?

Tbh I don't think we need any coverage, I mean I could see a MLati thing where we give like... Electric Psychic or Ground. but like. nah. we have no real room on sets imo.

Smogon won't let me quote the boosting question but. Please no. The entire point of this concept is to not become a fast sweeper. setup will do that. I mean we could do Iron Defense but any offensive setup should be banned imo.

 

[Jomakl]

Set-up Moves
I agree with the no offensive set up but CAP 33 could use stockpile and swallow. really risky but maybe spit-up though it could become a set-up sweep move.

Moves that may not be good together
My only thoughts right now are do we want this to be a fast stall Pokémon cause if we don’t. Wil-o-wisp or high-base power moves might have some reason to be banned as 50% heal + surf/moonblast + protect and WoW would be a scary stall with high speed and bulk. Only Pokémon high special attack grass, electric, steel and poison can counter this, maybe, but can still be burned or hurt by the other move left Volcanion can't be hurt by either like Mollux, or water veil/leaf guard mons might be safe from both moves and even fairy options. I feel like WoW could be banned as it allows for this potential fast stall. WoW deals 1/8 hp and you have 24 surfs/moonblast allowing you to stall out potentially 4 Pokémon and highspeed likely guarantees heals. Pattern for stall could be WoW, protect, Surf/WoW, protect/surf, protect/surf/wow/heal repeat until entire other team is burned or ran out of heals.

Edited more details and other answers added

 

[StarFalcon555]

1. Are coverage moves important for CAP33 to perform its role? If so, which types of coverage are preferred and which types of coverage should be avoided?

The only coverage type that I think would work well on CAP 33, IMO, would be Ground coverage. The tier has plenty of Electric, Poison, and Steel type Pokemon, and Ground handles all of these threats handily, letting CAP 33 more reliably handle threats like Krilowatt, Sneasler, Gholdengo, Galarian Slowking, and Kingambit that otherwise put a lot of pressure on CAP 33.

That being said, I would prefer it if CAP 33 does NOT get any coverage moves. Between our STABs, 50% recovery, and utility moves, we already have a wide amount of options available, and throwing coverage moves into the mix might result in CAP 33 developing some pretty gnarly 4MSS. Keeping our options restricted to STABs, recovery, and utility moves will allow us to function better as a wall without having to sacrifice any of these important slots. But if we do have to give CAP 33 coverage, Ground coverage is easily the best route to take.

2. Is boosting something CAP33 should concern itself with? If so, which boosting moves are appropriate here?

To put it simply, CAP 33 should not have any boosting moves. Like I said above, we're already strapped for moveslots with the options we have available to us, and boosting moves would not only worsen any potential 4MSS we may develop, but also distract from our role as a wall and turn us into a straight up bulky sweeper if we go for something like Calm Mind. We'd just end up becoming a fast Ursaluna-BM which would NOT be fun LMAOOOOOOO. The only boosting moves that would make sense on CAP33 are Iron Defense and Amnesia, as they focus on our defensive stats, but again, it would take up precious moveslots, and you already know there'll be people clamoring for Body Press if we go with Iron Defense, which again just turns us into a sweeper LMAOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

 

[Amamama]

I think it’s worth noting that Nuzzle is functionally different from Thunder Wave in that it bypasses Magic Bounce and, probably more relevantly, Good As Gold.

Oh sure I know it will make a difference in actual play, what I mean is that paralysis is paralysis. It doesn’t change much for the stats stage, wether we have Twave or Nuzzle. Maybe Nuzzle might require a small BSR penalty bc being a straight upgrade idk. But it still feels marginal at best so I don’t think you need the distinction between Nuzzle and Twave for Defining Moves.

Jungle Healing and Lunar Blessing should be trimmed, I feel. Unless we plan to run two different healing moves on the same set, their 25% recovery is so low that it practically makes Multiscale one-time use, and while the status cure is useful, there feels like better ways to help mitigate 33's weakness to status. Disable should most likely be trimmed as well, as it is obnoxious in the context of having Encore and seemingly a gimmick otherwise. Other than that, the only move that I feel isn't as neccesary is Will-o-wisp, as Scald is a far better move for us in terms of compression, but it's still worth considering if Scald isn't desired for this mon.

I agree that Disable and Encore shouldn’t be on the same set. That said I feel like Disable has a similar value to Encore in aiding the walling potential of 33. Especially in conjunction with Multiscale and high speed it can increase the amount of pressure 33 can exert on opponents with continuous turns of clicking STABd or status while unbothered by the opponents best coverage against 33.

I also disagree that Lunar Blessing and Jungle Healing are irrelevant to the Stats stage.

Yes this type of move comes at a great opportunity cost, either occupying the 4th moveslot or coating you 50% recovery or a STAB move.
But I think for some stat spreads and team builds the additional healing and especially the ability to recover at 80% after switching into some weak hits, without wasting precious Recover PP - all while having the added benefit of healing Status - can make sense.
I do think that these moves only really make sense if Scald is in the mix and the Mon has really good levels of bulk and/or if the Mon hits reasonably hard (more Mega Latias than Scream Tail).
Either way I think 25% recovery is relevant for damage thresholds on resisted hits and hits through Multiscale during Calcs so I feel they should be included.

That said, I personally think physical is not the way to go. It makes us even more vulnerable to status (including opposing CAP33 if we give Scald/Wisp) by making us even more passive if we get burned. Also, Play Rough is too weak a move for a "stronger" STAB, while Spirit Break is too weak to do anything offensively. Also, I think Haze could probably go, since we have a lot of Unaware mons in the meta and I can't see how Haze could fit on the set.

At this point I think a decision on going Special or Physical is a little early. I feel like leaving the possibility for Physical Stat Spreads can only enhance discussion during Stats and let’s us examine our threats list a little better.

Haze I think should also be on this list for the Stats Stage as it certainly has an impact on calcs, just bc there’s a functional difference between taking two boosted hits or one boosted hit into an unboosted one or even never taking boosted hits from some targets.
I agree that it might be hard to fit on a set but the argument, that Unaware mons exist is a bit short sighted imo, as different defensive Pokémon (and by extension defensive cores) beat different offensive mons.

Regarding the discussion on what moves should be required I think only Surf, Moonblast or for Physical sets Liquidation and Play Rough and 50% recovery need to be absolutely required.
Additionally at least one of the Utility moves list should be required (though I don’t think we need to specify which)
Basically anything that isn’t strongest STABs and 50% Recovery should be optional.

Not sure how to gauge BSR cuts for the utility options, but I think Scald, Knock and Glare should come with small penalties and I could see penalties for Encore and Disable.

 

[mark6870]

1. Are coverage moves important for CAP33 to perform its role? If so, which types of coverage are preferred and which types of coverage should be avoided?

I doubt coverage is needed. CAP33's STAB combination is already decently threatening and, unless we have some really good offensive stats, I doubt a nonstab Psychic or Thunderbolt will really hurt pokemon like Venomicon. I think CAP33 should garner pressure through its STABs and utility and not through coverage.

2. Is boosting something CAP33 should concern itself with? If so, which boosting moves are appropriate here?

I actually really like boosting for CAP33. I've seen posts saying that it would give us 4MSS, or that it would distract us from being a wall, but I do not think that is the case. Firstly, many walls utilize boosting while still being. Skeledirge, Dondozo, Garganacl, Venomicon, and Tapu Fini are all walls that utilize boosting in some way. Notably, all of them bar Dirge and Venom have other widely used viable sets that do not boost in any way, showing that while a wall boosting is viable, it is not always better than having straight utility.

Boosting also makes use of our Speed in the same way Recovery makes use of it. For example, it could Calm Mind and eat a Thunderbolt or Sludge Bomb it otherwise would have died to, and then outspeed naturally and KO with its now boosted Special Attack.

As for specific boosting moves, I only really support Calm Mind. Iron Defense + Body Press doesn't really hit anything notable, Cosmic Power seems just unfun to play against, our physical move options cannot hold a candle to our phys options, and Quiver Dance is just a busted move.
Truthfully, Calm Mind + Good Stats + Recovery + Multiscale could definitely get out of hand, so I believe if it does end up on our defining moves list, it should have a sizeable BSR penalty.

3. From the tentative defining moves list and the above questions, which of these moves should we focus on going forward? What moves can be trimmed? Are there any particular move combinations we should avoid?

• Surf (special)
• Scald (special)
• Moonblast (special)
• Liquidation (physical)
• Play Rough and/or Spirit Break (physical)

Recovery:

• 50% Recovery Moves (Recover, Slack Off, Roost)
• Strength Sap
• Jungle Healing / Lunar Blessing

Utility:

• Will-O-Wisp
• Thunder Wave / Glare / Nuzzle(?)
• Encore
• Taunt
• Disable
• Haze
• Knock Off

I believe that we should focus on our special STAB moving forward, as well as Paralysis, Knock Off, Haze, and Taunt. Jungle Healing seems superfluous. CM and Scald should be optional due to their profound impact on how CAP33 functions.

 

[Brambane]

Boosting (Calm Mind) is the exact opposite direction of what we did with Multiscale. Whereas we picked an ability that is highly concept relevant but contradictory to our typing's role, Calm Mind seems entirely typing and ability synergistic but abandons the concept.

Yes there have been walls that used boosting moves, arguably two of the best defensive Pokemon in SS (Venomicon and Clefable) played that role very well with boosting moves, but I don't think anyone signed onto this concept to make CAP's 6th boosting sweeper in a row. What we have so far would be a good foundation for a sweeper, but it doesn't have to be to follow the concept and make an effective wall, so I would like to challenge us to chase another design philosophy for once.

The only coverage worth entertaining is Earthquaka ala Glowking using it to hit Heatran. It hits Iron Moth and Glowking, which is about where I draw the line for coverage. Everything else seems like it would never get used or would make the mon too strong (since to make non-4x SE coverage relevant, it has to be strong coverage usually via a high offensive stat or very high BP.)

I think we can unlock Jungle Healing, Lunar Blessing, and Heart Swap.

Jungle Healing and Lunar Blessing are just better Refresh, and this is a Pokemon that could consider running Refresh to avoid stuff like Scald ruining Multiscale. And since they are recovery, they are only better supporting the ability. Since Multiscale itself is a situational ability, moves that allow you to create the favorable situations more often are quite good. These two moves fit the bill. Lunar Blessing's less PP is only relevant if you start stacking the movepool with other absurd moves (i.e. Strength Sap and Jungle Healing on one set is a lot of PP for healing, 32, which with something like Scald let's it be a greedy goose.)

Heart Swap is a more proactive Haze. Not always better, you can't really win a boosting war with Heart Swap unless you do Sucker Punch-like shenanigans of baiting your opponent into the wrong move. However, it does grab momentum for a fast Pokemon with a pretty solid dual STAB typing. If you like Calm Mind, Heart Swap is the cooler way to go that offensive direction that probably fits the concept of "utilizing Speed as a wall" better. Ursaluna is a good target, but so long as Manaphy, Hemogoblin, and Hatterene are around there is still great value to be had.

I think Nuzzle and Glare are fine, doesn't bump the power level up that much more than Thunder Wave in all reality. Encore good, Taunt good, Knock Off good but should be approached with caution. Surf and Liquidation (ew) as mandatory. Scald and/or Will-O-Wisp should be mandatory, depends how much you want to lean in Scald's moveslot compression. Haze and Whirlwind are no brainers. Moonblast is obvious, and I don't like Spirit Break but if we are willing to give this Pokemon all the stats in the world than sure. Recover mandatory with Wish, Strength Sap, and Jungle/Lunar as optional. Heart Swap as optional, likely a -BSR option.

 

[ALZev2002]

With CAP 33 giving us the opportunity to introduce a fast wall, I feel like fringe options should be considered for its move pool apart from its standard and obvious tools. Some moves for the water/fairy mon to consider:
-Whirlpool
-Nature's madness
-Power Split
These moves in particular would benefit from a Pokemon with high speed and high bulk and don't demand much offensive investment in its stats. Other moves I thought would drive discussion but would understandably object to is Imprison+transform. I've read the previous posts and understand that the CAP mon needs to learn some splashable and reliable moves we shouldn't overlook niche picks.

 

[FourEyesIsAFish]

I know I'm not even close to the most knowledgeable person with regards to CAP and even competitive pokemon in general, but i'd like to put in my two cents on these general points.

1. What is the best way to accentuate CAP33's role as a fast wall through the moves it will be using?
As a fast wall, CAP33 (at least from my understanding) wants to be able to take hits well and stop potential sweepers and other offensive pokemon from getting out of hand. A lot of CAP33's moves should be utility in one form or another and allow it to really abuse that speed while not just turning it into a bulky sweeper like some other fast pokemon.
To bring up an (admittedly kinda biased on my end) comparison, CAP33 so far seems to be rather similar to a CAP I am decently familiar with: Krilowatt, who is similarly a fast and bulky part-water type meant to counter specific threats. Notably Krilowatt is more offense leaning than 'fast wall' suggests, but most of its utility moves should carry over.

2. Which moves benefit from moving before the opponent, and how does this apply to CAP33?
A whole lot of moves benefit from from going first on a fast wall, but there's a few categories that i haven't really heard talked about all that much.
Status moves as a whole benefit a lot from going first but i especially want to discuss self-buffing and self-healing status moves such as Recover, Rest, Roost, Calm Mind, Cosmic Power, Tailwind, and so on. Cosmic Power and healing moves are especially great on a wall by letting it increase its health and defenses before the opponent attacks, letting it tank hits it would otherwise die from.
High-speed also means switching moves like Volt Switch, U-Turn, and Flip Turn get to switch 33 out of bad matchups such as Clodsire (who is likely going to be a pretty decent counter with water absorb and poison stab). It also applies to status moves such as Baton Pass and Shed Tail, which i have no idea if we should let get in close contact with 33.

3. Given CAP33's Water/Fairy type, what STAB-moves is it likely going to be using?
Starting with the obvious: Scald is the water stall stab move with both its 80 base power and a chance to burn, likely meaning this is going to be a special-leaning pokemon attack-wise. That would mean using stuff like Surf and, if we want to unlock it, Hydro Cannon. On the fairy side of special, we have Moonblast and Dazzling Gleam as extremely strong stab moves and Draining Kiss as a slightly stronger, stab Mega Drain (which sure is no Giga Drain but is still very nice on a wall). A very strong option to be unlocked is Springtime Storm, a base 100 special move with 80 accuracy that's essentially a special Play Rough (remember that for later).
If we instead go for a physical or mixed attacker, Flip Turn was already mentioned in the switching moves section but being stab is extra nice, Liquidation would allow 33 to be effective in messing with other walls. On the fairy type of physical... we have Play Rough and Spirit Break, both decently strong physical moves that can lower Attack and Special Attack respectively, a match made in heaven for a wall. Of the two, Play Rough is stronger, but Spirit Break's 100% accuracy means its more consistent.

Will get to addressing the second set of points in a bit.

 

[Scizivire]

Hey, I'm loving the discussion so far but I wanted to address something real quick. I noticed people are eager to discuss whether or not certain moves require a BSR penalty of some sort, and I kind of want to nip this in the bud for now. These types of sentiments are best left to the next stage in the process, being Stat Limits Discussion, so let's wait until that starts to get into that.

That's all for now! I'll be back tomorrow to summarize and perhaps ask a last set of questions if necessary.

 

[Scizivire]

Alright, nobody posted since my last post but that's ok :)

Getting into things again, I want to quickly summarize the discussion around the latest set of questions I posted on wednesday and what this means for the defining moves list:

• In terms of coverage moves, most people here would agree that coverage isn't necessarily all that useful for CAP33 to run and might constrain movesets a bit, but if we did opt into coverage then move types such as Ice and Ground would make the most sense here. Therefore I will put these under optional moves so people can do calcs with them during stat submissions.
• Boosting moves are generally unpopular in the thread as well as on Discord because of the risk of favoring sweeper sets, so these are not necessary to include on the defining moves list and will probably be banned from discussion in later move stages. Purely defensive boosting such as through Iron Defense might be allowed but at this point I don't think it is very impactful.
• For many people in the thread, the focus should be on status and general disruption of the opponent through moves like Encore and the like, while recovery is also mandatory. Here's what I'm going to do when it comes the defining moves list:
  • Recovery is deemed vital to CAP33's viability, so I'll place the 50% recovery moves as required, while the less straight-forward healing moves such as Strength Sap and Lunar Blessing/Jungle Healing will be optional.
  • I'm going to group the status moves into one group where at least one should be present in the movepool. I think the three paralysis moves on the list are about equally useful, but if desired we can make it the list defines it in a way that one of the three should be chosen.
  • The same for disruption moves - they will be grouped where at least one should be present in the movepool. Weaker disruption options such as Disable will be optional. We can figure out during the movesets stage which of these moves are best.
  • I'll put all of the previously mentioned STAB moves into the required category, except Spirit Break, which will be put into optional as it is a weaker option to run even if we lean physical.
  • Other utility moves that received less overall support such as Haze and Knock Off will also be optional.

This leaves us with the following defining moves list:

Defining Moves

Required Moves:

• Moonblast (if special)
• Surf (if special)
• Scald
• Play Rough (if physical)
• Liquidation (if physical)
• 50% Recovery Move
• At least one of [Will-o-Wisp, Thunder Wave, Glare, Nuzzle]
• At least one of [Encore, Taunt]

Optional Moves:

• Spirit Break (if physical)
• Ice Coverage Moves
• Ground Coverage Moves
• Strength Sap
• Lunar Blessing / Jungle Healing
• Disable
• Haze
• Knock Off

I'm mostly confident about this list, but I think some moves like Scald could be put into optional if desired, as well as the thing about the three paralysis moves mentioned earlier. I'd like to leave this thread up for roughly 36 more hours (until the end of the weekend, basically) so you guys can suggest and discuss changes to be made to the list, and then we can move on to the next stage after the weekend. Happy posting!

 

[Sawyer.]

In my view, Scald should be an optional rather than a required move. Yes, Scald provides moveslot compression compared to Surf + Wisp/Glare, but it also introduces a significant and undesirable element of luck. The CAP playerbase should get to vote on whether CAP33's playstyle will revolve around spamming Scald or not.

 

[Brambane]

I am fine with Scald being optional if Wisp is mandatory. CAP33 should always have burn in its kit in some form as an option and bulk-wise should be informed somewhat by its ability to mitigate the opponent's physical damage.

 

[quziel]

Scald's a significantly higher power level than Surf is here, and I think there are valid routes that focus on Surf as the main water stab, so I'd be in favor of making Scald optional to open up a bit more set diversity.

Rest of the defining moves look solid.

 

[spoo]

Jungle Healing/Lunar Blessing seem to have missed out on a lot of rightful scrutiny in this thread given their status as signature moves. Jungle Healing is brought up almost every CAP process and shot down just as fast, because despite it having a pretty cool and unique mechanic that's often relevant to the mons we build, it is hardly ever essential to accomplish our goal. What is so different about this process? Even during CAP32 where we were more liberal with handing out signature moves, this was something we established from the outset. These moves should be held to a higher standard than run-of-the-mill utility options.

Signature status aside, I don't think these moves are very good. The argument that CAP33 may want to run Refresh, and therefore may especially want JH/LB, is a tenuous stance at best. Assuming we're running two attacks (this may not always be the case), we'd either be giving up 50% recovery, or dropping a utility move like Wisp, Knock, etc in the fourth slot. I don't think the former is ever a realistic scenario; a functional wall in this tier simply needs 50% recovery to do its job, and taking into account Multiscale, a sole 25% healing option just isn't something that is going to be effective at keeping us healthy with our ability intact throughout a match. Likewise, running JH/LB over other utility moves sounds really poor. Any wall that's worth running in this tier needs to be able to make reliable progress and actually force out the mons it's trying to beat, and our two STABs only go so far in this regard.

Maybe I am underselling the utility of these moves. But that's OK, because no matter how much you oversell them, I think it is a delusion to argue that they are essential for our success, that they will be run on every set, or even just a significant amount of sets. Again, these moves should be held to a higher standard, and so far they have not been. Move Scald to optional moves and then the list looks good

 

[Samirsin]

I think Will-O-Wisp should be alone in Required Moves and then At least one of [Thunder Wave, Glare, Nuzzle], while both disrupt, they have different targets and if we don't have Scald in its movepool, we'll at least have Will-O-Wisp.