CAP 35 - Part 2 - Concept Assessment

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I also want to say really quickly that there has been a bit of support regarding the interpretation of the "contradiction" as an aspect which outwardly seems to imply a different role as compared to the actual intended role (eg Cawmodore). I'm going to push back strongly against this, as this interpretation is essentially aiming to create an intentionally confusing Pokemon. This is bad in pretty much every way possible: it provides a greater barrier to break into the metagame, it isn't great for optics, and there is just no real reason to go down this path when there are other equally viable methods of actualization.
While I don’t necessarily disagree, I do want to add to this while giving my take on it.

As others like earthflax have said on the Discord, knowing what examples to draw from is crucial to getting this concept right. While I was of a different persuasion before, I don’t think Cawmodore simply is clear and defined enough an example for people to be used for our purposes. Whether or not I think it counts isn’t the point; it seems too much of an edge case to use as an example without confusing people more. It would do us all good to use examples people have more consensus on, such as AV Tyranitar.

Just as importantly, while I didn’t personally see this the way earthflax did, a counterintuitive element ≠ a confusing Pokémon, and conflating the two is dangerous for the concept’s success. The element is meant to go against the grain, not give people a migraine.
 
Hey all, wanted to pop in and give some of my thoughts too.

Firstly, I want to echo and reiterate Reviloja753 ’s definition of “fatal flaw” as “an element which contradicts/goes against how the role traditionally finds success which ultimately factors into how the Pokémon functions on a team.” I believe this is the most pertinent way of viewing this tricky wording to our process, and the one we should primarily take into our consideration. A “fatal flaw” is itself a bit of a misnomer for what I — and several others, it seems — believe to be what we should aim to achieve here. In my opinion, our aim here is not to create a Pokémon whose kit is compromised by a disastrous element; the term “fatal flaw,” after all, implies something, well, fatal to the ‘mon’s potential.

I’ve seen it said above that this route could potentially be made interesting by designing a ‘mon whose singular terrible trait is offset by other overwhelming positives, but to be honest, this is well-trodden ground as it is. Hemogoblin and Chromera were both designed with a central compromising factor (Defective Ability and just-average stats across the board, respectively), but what ended up happening was that Chromera was effectively made into a statball with a good movepool who despite this still remained (mostly) unviable up until its buff, and Hemogoblin ended up being overtuned in terms of the synergy between its incredibly effective movepool and ability. In other words, we’ve walked this road before, and it doesn’t always end in the cleanest way. What makes this particular concept exciting is that it presents a new idea we haven’t really tapped into in the same way that we did with the two aforementioned processes: intentional contradiction in design.

What I find much more compelling here than simply designing a ‘mon whose bad trait doesn’t matter in the face of its better ones, is intentionally designing a ‘mon whose gameplan appears contradictory to the role that its kit would otherwise suggest. I saw some great examples of this in posts above, especially Cawmodore (a supremely deadly sweeper who operates with a defensive typing, abilities, and a mostly defensive statline), pre-SV Heatran (a meta-defining defensive glue that lacks reliable recovery — a role which, to perhaps a somewhat lesser extent, Ting-Lu succeeds in in this gen), etc.

In regards to kenn ‘s questions, I also want to echo other posters in saying that I don’t believe a contradictory ability or stat spread would be conducive to our process here. As others have said, a contradictory ability — or even a non-ability, in the example of Keldeo that I saw above — is extremely restrictive on what we can feasibly do with our chosen role, and, as we’ve seen, most likely leads to overcompensation in other areas, like stats and movepool. Conversely, contradictory stats can muddy the process unless the Stats stage occurs much earlier in the process. A contradictory typing is interesting in that it leads to potentially compelling interactions later with both our offensive and defensive profile and the role our kit would imply versus what our ‘mon actually ends up doing in practice. However, my personal favorite route here would be a contradictory movepool.

Focusing on movepool as our contradictory element is the most exciting prospect to me, because this is an almost entirely untapped space for us. To my knowledge, we’ve never designed a ‘mon with an intentionally shallow or otherwise misleading movepool. At least since SM, it’s always sort of been our unspoken MO to just load up our products with diverse moves (hence the memes about CAPs always having one or more of Stealth Rock, Rapid Spin, or some form of setup). The idea of designing a ‘mon whose movepool goes against the grain of its role is fascinating to me, and I would personally much prefer if this was the route we take. The design space here is just more exciting to me, especially with some of the roles others have suggested, like a wallbreaker who has to rely on powerful coverage for damage output, a wall without reliable recovery, or, a suggestion of my own, a tank who functions as a trapper.

Lastly, I’ve also seen some differing takes on whether we should poll role and contradictory element as packages or one after the other. I don’t have much of an opinion on this currently, but I lean a little more towards polling role first and then our constraint. However, I do also see the merit in polling them as singular packages, as role and constraint are so interlinked for us here. Whichever way we slice it, I think these two things need to be decided upon before we do anything else. Echoing spoo, I firmly believe we need to pick a solid direction and stick with it. Cresceidon’s process is the best recent example of how balanced and viable a product we can make if we do this.

Anywho, this process looks to be very fun!! I’m excited, I think we stand to learn a lot here. Cheers, all :)
 
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Hi, everyone. Happy to be back for my second CAP process! Just wanted to provide my own thoughts after reading through everything here and discussing some in the Discord server.

1. Our first goal needs to be coming to a consensus on what a "fatal flaw" is. What is considered to be "fatal"? Do we want to just be contradictory to the role this CAP may have? Or is there more to having a fatal flaw than just that? Why?
As a device, a fatal flaw should ultimately lead to a character's eventual downfall. But as has been well-discussed at this point, fatal flaw is probably a misnomer. At the end of the day, CAP35 should at least theoretically be viable. It's perhaps better understood as an obvious weak point in it intended role that holds back its potential to a reasonable level. The best example mentioned is probably Kartana which has a few smaller flaws (mediocre offensive STAB combination, limited coverage, and a paltry SpD) that hold it back from being the quintessential sweeper that its stats and ability want it to be.

2. We have 4 broad options in typing, ability, moves, and stats for a "fatal flaw". Which one/s seems like the most unexplored route? Which one/s have already been thoroughly explored? (whether that be through past CAP Processes or by "standard" Pokemon) Which one/s seem the most intriguing? Why?
After some light discussion, typing and ability are likely the most feasible options with which to move forward. That being said, they also happen to be the two already best explored by CAP and Pokemon proper. Moves are an intriguing path to take. but it will require the most creativity and effort of any of the four options; it can easily fall into pitfalls like a "wall without recovery." Stats may be similarly intriguing, but Hemogoblin just explored that possibility.
There exists a fifth option that could fulfill the concept: that none of the four options are inherently flawed on their own. Instead, each would have a relatively small flaw that compounds with each other. To take the Kartana example, it's typing presents a glaring weakness to Fire-type attacks. That in turn compounds with it's low SpD (where most Fire-type attacks are special -- especially as coverage). And then than in turn compounds with it's limited movepool where if it cannot remove the opposing Pokemon immediately, it risks fainting from even an Ember as the joke goes. So instead of thinking of Kartana's typing or stats as it's "fatal flaw," it is rather opposing Fire-type attacks.

3. Our second goal should be nailing down a role for this CAP! I think us having a solid direction of whether we wanna lean offensively or defensively is gonna be huge in not only determining where the fatal flaw could lie, but also to have some sort of focus for this and future stages! With that, what roles would be a viable option? Which one/s wouldn't be? Why?
Again, similar to the second question, I think an offensive role is the most straightforward direction but also happens to be the most treaded path. Defensive or utility roles will require more effort and creativity but there is much more fertile ground to be found.

4. Do we poll the drawback at the same time as our role? Why or why not?
There is no clear way through this process without the role and flaw intricately linked from the beginning. It may be possible to have a simple poll to determine the vague role CAP35 will fill (offensive, defensive, or utility as an example) and then work out one of the possible flaws under each umbrella. But, we should not treat them as distinct elements and they need to be decided within quick succession if not simultaneously.
 
Hello everyone!

After watching over the thread these past few days, it seems like most of you have come to a consensus that the fatal flaw aspect of this concept is meant to be more looked at as a contradiction rather than an actual flaw due to the fact that a flaw itself feels like we would be creating an unviable CAP from the get go and we don't want that.

Most of you also seem to be a little bit more spread out in your thoughts on where we would want this "flaw" to be; however, it seems a good chunk of you (from here and Discord) have expressed ability and stats being already explored/not as fun as typing and movepool and I am inclined to agree with that.

I have also seen a plethora of roles mentioned as well that could be viable (such as Wall or Wallbreaker) and ones that are potentially not as viable due to being unclear (such as Pivot or Stallbreaker) so it seems there is a good variety when it comes to what we as the community wanna see come out of this process.

Lastly, it seems pretty much everyone agrees that polling roles and contradictions together as one is the best approach to us getting a clearly defined path through this concept and its process. With that being said...

Role + Contradiction suggestions are now open!

I plan to allow 48-72 hours for your suggestions on what roles + contradictions before coming to you with a final slate that we shall poll and then reopen discussion here thereafter to discuss what that combo means as we head into the next stage of the process!

I can't wait to see what y'all bring to the table!
 
You might just say I've got a type. (I hope I'm allowed to loosely float 2 ideas for the moment?)

May I suggest a defensive Pokemon that has a type that does not natively resist many types? It could be a cool investigation on Terastalization from a direction that isn't using it for offensive purposes, and will allow us to explore what exactly a wall needs if it can't rely on "It's not very effective!" as a cornerstone of its strategy? A handful of role models (the average Normal-type, Clefable arguably, Hippowdon in the past) already exist, each approaching their task in a slightly different way. With abilities, moves, and stats out there to enhance a wall that isn't natively taking reduced damage from most coverage or STABs, I think it could be quite fascinating to explore what a defensive Pokemon relies on when it can't rely on typing. And that's all even without exploring what defensive Terastalizations might look like, but frankly I'm less stoked about this perspective as someone who does not expect Terastalization to return in more than one future generation.

I'm also a fan of a pivot that has the unfortunate side effect of being weak to Stealth Rock. While this is maybe a bit more narrow in scope, with less logical directions off rip that could be gone towards in order to make this hypothetical 'mon actually accomplish anything, I think that exploring what hazards do in our game. Zapdos is a good example of a Pokemon that has successfully stared down its SR weakness and brought Volt Switch to plenty of metagames, and her sister Moltres with U-Turn has had a recent (it's recent to me, okay) resurgence with the introduction of Boots. I'm less hooked on this idea admittedly, as it again does feel pretty pigeon-holed in what its answers to "okay, but how is 'mon usable?" could be.
 
I'd like to suggest Offensive Role + Movepool Contradiction.

There are a lot of ways we could go with this. The one I'm probably interested in the most is a speedy attacker that is forced to use negative priority move as a major part of its kit. But things like an offensive pokemon without effective STABs, a wallbreaker with low BP stabs, and various restrictions on coverage could very easily work too. Even things like a wobbuffet-style heavily restricted movepool. It's a very flexible route but it leads to some of our coolest options imo.
 
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I'd like to suggest Wall + Traditional Offensive Wallbreaker Stats as a contradiction.

I believe a traditionally offensive spread on a primarily defensive pokemon could carve out a unqiue space in the metagame.

High offensive stats combined with carefully selected coverage and/or typing could allow it to uniquely scare off certain wallbreakers or specific walls in the metagame that other defensive pokemon could struggle with, at the tradeoff of having a less optimized statspread for its general intended purpose. The closest example that has caught my attention during discussion was national dex Mega Banette, fulfilling a utility roll primarily even if its stats are more focused in an offensive direction. Altough Mega Banette itself is more focused towards an offensive playstyle, I believe this contradiction can be optimized into a unique defensive role through limiting offensive coverage and optimizing defensive tools.
 
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:blissey: Got sniped by A Fairy but I also want to peep in Wall + Lacking Resistances as a role + contradiction! :snorlax:

A significant amount of defensive mons have extraordinary defensive profiles to deal with a significant amounts of threats. Examples in this meta include the likes of Equilibra, Venomicon, and Mollux, which have typings that contain a significant amount of resistances to check a lot of pokémon in the meta. This CAP, would aim to do the opposite, to try and adopt a defensive role, but without much resistances to take advantage from. This cap would avoid that and instead go for a defensive profile that lacks many resistances, instead finding other ways to fullfill its niche.

One of the biggest examples of this would Snorlax in gen 2. Snorlax being a normal type meant that its only inmunity is to ghost type moves, many of which are already irrelevant due to the lack of physical ghost types. While Snorlax is primarily known as the biggest threat in the meta, the reason its not banned is because it also helps maintain the tier safe from electric types like Raikou or Zapdos. Ground types who try to check these pokémon can often be overwhelmed due to hidden power coverage hitting them super effectively, hiddering their ability to check them properly. Snorlax, whose defensive typing is not weak to nothing other than fighting, is able to check them due to its huge stats and ability to enter rest cycles to heal the damage done while avoiding paralysis.

Hippowdon is another example of a successful defensive mon with few resistances. Despite only an inmunity to electric, and resistances to poison and rock, Hippowdon has been used througout the years as a successful wall capable of staving off attacks from the likes of Steel Types, Fighting types, Flying types among others, thanks to the combination of its sand setting prowess, its great physical bulk and its decently good movepool with good utlity and recovery.

There's a lot more examples such as Blissey and what not, but going out to explore a different way to make a pokémon stand out in a meta besides packing it with a lot of key resistances sounds like an interesting process to explore.
 
Note: I'm using this post as reference for how I'm discussing this role.

I'd like to suggest Wall + Lack of Recovery and Utility Walls are designed to stay in for multiple turns and shut down opposing offensive strategies. Most walls fill this role by having reliable recovery moves and utility they can use while they're on the field, like hazards and status spreading. But what if a wall's moveset wasn't designed with these tools in mind?

The route I imagine is a wall that is able to last on the field without reliable recovery moves, and isn't trying to use utility moves while it's on the field, but instead uses its longevity to whittle down the opponents team and stall out moves with an offensive-oriented moveset. It's not a completely rare circumstance for a wall to utilize an offense oriented moveset (see Dondozo), but a wall with an almost entirely offensive moveset, lacking standard recovery options or utility, would be very interesting to design and discuss.

I believe it would bring an interesting element to all four stages as well: the typing has to be able to keep the mon alive without recovery moves, the ability and stats must insist in longevity and keep the wall up, and deciding how to give a wall a non-defensive, non-utility moveset and still be effective in its role would be insightful.

Not to mention, CAP 33, our last defensive CAP, was a cesspool of utility options, so I think this would make a unique defensive Pokemon to follow CAP 33.
 
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For clarity, I’ve revised the wording and trimmed unnecessary details to create a more focused submission, helping those who found it too open-ended feel more confident in their choice.
Alright, here we go. The essence of this project is to identify Pokémon that excel in roles despite having traits that seem suboptimal for those roles. These Pokémon possess elements that wouldn’t typically be considered ideal for their specific function, yet they thrive nonetheless. For that, I suggest the following.

Wall + Absence of reliable recovery : When I mention the "absence of reliable recovery," I’m not suggesting the complete removal of all forms of sustain. Rather, it refers to relying on less conventional healing methods that still support a defensive Pokémon’s role (Like Leech Seed and Harvest). Typically, the main function of a wall is to stop the opponent’s momentum and gain an advantage, usually by utilizing a range of utility options such as hazards, status effects, hazard removal, phasing, disruption (like Knock Off), and, most importantly, reliable recovery. Among these, the moves that offer the Pokémon the ability to regain at least half of their total HP is crucial, as it enables defensive Pokémon to maintain their presence throughout a match and continue to contribute. Moves like Slack Off, Recover and Synthesis, to name a few, remain staples of some of the most successful walls across the generations. I believe it's worth exploring how certain walls remain effective without access to this form of sustain. For instance, Pokémon like Celesteela and Dondozo excel in this regard. Despite having no access to reliable sustain, they compensate through strong defensive typing, stat distributions, and abilities, allowing them to fulfill their role effectively. Even with a less-than-ideal movepool, their available moves still offer significant utility and contribute to their overall success in walling and disrupting opponents.

In the case of Celesteela, the combination of Flamethrower and Heavy Slam (which takes full advantage of Celesteela's immense weight) creates an effective way to fend off key defensive Pokémon in Gen 7 OU to compensate for its own passivity. This moveset allows Celesteela to reliably wall and pressure some of its most common targets, such as Tapu Lele, Mega Diancie, and Garchomp. Additionally, Leech Seed, in combination with Leftovers, provides a steady source of recovery. While not as consistent as direct healing moves like Slack Off or Recover, this setup enables Celesteela to sustain itself while gradually wearing down opponents in prolonged battles of attrition. While it relies on avoiding Knock Off like the plague, Celesteela was a great defensive option in the Sun and Moon metagame in spite of its rather atypical movepool for its playstyle.

Dondozo, on the other hand, utilizes its ability, combined with its gargantuan bulk, to check some of Gen 9 OU’s most formidable threats, such as Kingambit and Roaring Moon. Unaware enables this fish to come on in on any physically biased set up sweeper, irrespective of all the stat boosts they have accrued, and still beat them safely. With access to Body Press to make use of its high defense stat, and curse to more effectively deal with boosts that Unaware cannot account (Like with offensive Tera, or Kingambit's Supreme Overlord). Having such a massive defensive profile, Dondozo has been one of the few Pokémon in recent years to be able to use the move Rest and Sleep talk effectively. Getting ample opportunities to get a rest off on physical attackers, and ignoring any attempt to use it as set up fodder with Unaware- Dondozo can get away with removing status ailments and healing back to full, at the expense of losing two turns, something it can offset with Sleep Talk.

Hopefully, these two examples can provide a foundation for the upcoming process should we go this route, exemplifying that a defensive pokemon can still succeed even when stuck with a movepool devoid of useful utility. Not to say we should follow them to a t, but providing insight on the potential pathways that are available.
 
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I prefer we do something more defensive than offensive, I think it's better to explore that path for more variety.
Something I think it's unexplored in OU is
Wall + No reliable recovery
I am thinking about Goodra Hisui for example, great tankiness but depends on Rest to heal.
 
Looks like the two I would have submitted have been submitted already so I guess I'll say why I like the concepts:

Sweeper + Movepool - Movepool seems (to me) like it would be the hardest one to get right since you need to find a way to make it be effective at its chosen role without making it just better in a different role, however Sweeper seems like it would be a great, and fun, combo to work with. There's a few different ways to accomplish this too, such as limiting it to STAB attacks, but have it be able to deal with a wide variety of 'mons or limiting the STAB attacks to low powered moves and have it still handle the stuff you would expect something of that typing to typically handle without also having coverage that can hit them. This would hopefully let us explore other ways a Sweeper could work if it was forced to be creative. (Hopefully without just going "let's give it the best offensive typing so the fact that it can only use STABs isn't an issue" or "low powered moves? technician".)

Wall + Typing - Entirely possible this has been done before, if not then certainly has been suggested before, but the idea of using a typing that seems like it would be suboptimal defensively and working with the type's strengths to make it effective is one I like. Although there's also the play of taking a type combo and have it effectively wall a type or two that it shouldn't be able to that seems like a good way to go. I may also be biased towards stuff that deals with types in this kind of way so take this with a grain of salt, but I do think that going this way would have merit by allowing us to also see different ways a typing's defensive qualities could be leveraged for success.
 
Hello again! Provided below are three possible avenues for CAP35. Like the Kartana example, these are paths that compound multiple small flaws into one fatal flaw. Thanks to the people of the CAP Discord for helping me to flesh them out.

• Wallbreaker + Moveset/Stats

Inspired in part by a couple concept submissions that did not make it, this Pokemon would be an offensively oriented Pokemon that relies on variable or fixed power moves to deal damage. Such moves would include Super Fang, Heavy Slam, Electro Ball, Foul Play, etc. The contradiction here would be a limited movepool and in many cases functionally useless attacking stats on an offensive threat.

• Passive Wall + Type/Moveset/Stats


This suggestion was more of a collaborative effort. This Pokemon would have an exceptional offensive typing with some defensive merit (the example given is Ground/Fairy but there are others) that is forced into a purely passive defensive roll thanks to its limited movepool and mediocre offensive stats.

• Specialized Wall + Type/Ability/Stats

This suggestion is the personal favorite, but perhaps the most limited in scope and difficult to execute. The Pokemon is all about trade offs and is almost the inversion of the Kartana example. It would feature a typing, stat package, and ability that squarely push it into a purely physical or special wall. However, each element would have a common weakness that compounds with each other to give the Pokemon one fatal flaw. One example may be a Steel-type with Fluffy and a stat spread that favors Def at the cost of SpD.

I'll be reviewing everyone else's submissions tomorrow to provide feedback.
 
I don't have time to make a detailed post since I'm about to board a plane, but I would like to suggest wallbreaker without viable STAB moves.
a defensive Pokemon that has a type that does not natively resist many types?
pivot that has the unfortunate side effect of being weak to Stealth Rock
Just chiming in for Kenn (who can’t post to Smogon right now) that he’s looking for general roles, not specific contradictions within a category. So “Wallbreaker + Movepool” is a valid submission but “Wallbreaker without STABs” isn’t. Attached photos are evidence.
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Since we are staying fairly vague and The options that contain the ways forward, which id enjoy most where already mentioned im gonna plug another Idea, that seems neat If slightly narrower than other options.
Hazard Setter and Control + Movepool deficiency
Imagine If great tusk didnt have Stealth Rock or Rapid Spin. Could you still find ways to allow it to control the state of hazards on the pitch. A fascinating example to me is copycat Krilowatt, which was able to use its offensive threat and ability to switch in well on common setters to set hazards without access to them in its Movepool. Similarly you could steal removal moves such as Rapid Spin or Defog, with that right Pokémon. A simpler example of this could be Rebound Colossoil or Magic Bounce users such as Hatterene.
Another option that has seen limited use is Magic Coat.

Side note: Copycat in general could be a funny Option to use to alleviate a Movepool deficiency.
 
Not sure if this conflicts too heavily with Wall + Typing, but I'ma suggest this anyway:

Tank + Typing

Tanks are designed to take big hits and dish them back, and often sacrifice speed for this capability for balance reasons. However, because of their lack of speed, their typing is often the deciding factor in terms of how well they ultimately perform. For example, Rhydon has one of the worst defensive typings in the game in Rock/Ground, yet it saw play all the way back in RBY due to its unique ability to reign in Zapdos (well... technically it was unique since you'd be insane to use Golem over Rhydon at the time) while delivering powerful Earthquakes and Rock Slides to whoever dared switch in to take its place.

Perhaps CAP35 can recapture Rhydon's days of RBY glory, through taking a type that really wants to be offensive instead, and using the defensive qualities that it does have to their fullest advantage. Plus I feel as though it's been a hot minute since CAP did a proper, dedicated tank... but it could just be me being blind :/
 
I think too many of these suggestions are still too vague.

Example, Wall + Unconventional Movepool is not informative enough to me to form a good opinion for a voting stage. I would vote for a "Wall Without Reliable Recovery" since that is an interesting project, I wouldn't vote for a "Wall Without Status Afflictions" or "Wall Without Hazard Removal." While plenty of walls use moves like Thunder Wave, Rapid Spin, or Defog, I don't think those are asking any interesting questions for the process.

Tank + Typing is another. What about the typing specifically would, as the concept literally says, "typically hold its role back?" You should be more specific here, this is the point of the concept assessment.

Getting back to the concept itself, I am going to quote its description:
This Pokémon succeeds in its role despite a severe contradiction in one of its key components (type, ability, stats, or moves) which would typically hold its role back.

The key part of this isn't the word "contradictory," its the "hold its role back." This concept very explicitly is stating that this Pokemon has a component of its design that WOULD hold it back, yet it succeeds. The element that should be contradictory is something weak and flawed. I bring this up because are trying to thread two needles here:

1. This Pokemon has a genuine weakness in its design that can and should be exploited when playing against it, BUT
2. It's strengths are so valuable to you as the teambuilder that you are willing to put up with a glaring weakness

That is why I want these submissions to be very clear what is "holding it back."
 
I agree with Brambane's suggestion above. We should be as specific as is reasonable to be in this stage. If the intent is to do e.g. "Wall that has a movepool drawback" and immediately go into CA2 to vote on a more specific drawback, there's no reason we can't just do that now, and submit "Wall that has no reliable recovery".
 
Wallbreaker with a movepool for the other stat.

The idea is basic, just a wallbreaker but with either high attack or special attack, and with a movepool that's leans more to the other attacking type.
I don't think this idea has been explored much in Pokémon, with physical attackers always having more physical moves than special and vice versa. I think it'll be an interesting thing to explore.
 
Before I give some Role + Contradiction pairings that I feel could be interesting, I want to bring attention to ones that seem uninteresting for one reason or another:

Wall + Movepool Contradiction
Beyond the fact that mons such as Dondozo and Celesteela have already explored this, this feels like a fairly uninteresting route to go down. We've seen plenty of examples of succesful mons with unconventional recovery options (Leech Seed, Pain Split, etc.), and even mons with no recovery outside of leftovers, and making a wall without any good support tools in its movepool sounds like a truly tedious and uninteresting process, nevermind the fact that most Pokemon like this tend to solve the issue by simply being enormous stat sticks and not much else.

Wallbreaker/Sweeper + Stats Contradiction
Similar to the previous example, We've seen a lot of mons who achieve this combination already. Azumarill, Krillowatt, and Nidoking are all prominent examples who've solved this issue by having abilities that simply make up for their lower offensive stats. Hemogoblin arguably fits into this category as well, with stats that resemble defensive mons like Clefable while being a terrifying late-game sweeper thanks to Pixilate, Bulk Up and Extreme Speed. Ultimately, between movepool, typing and ability choices, it is not that difficult or interesting to make a mon who can go on the offensive without having the stats to follow suit.

Now for some combinations that I think would be interesting!

Wall + Ability Contradiction
Many of the defensive mons who we've seen rise up in the metagame over the years have had abilities that absolutely synergize with their playstyle, and most of the ones who don't have had offensive abilities that don't get in the way of their longevity. Having a wall whos ability actively clashes with its longevity is one that offers a lot of merit to me, especially if said ability offers a tradeoff that said wall can use to threaten the opposition in a way that other walls in the meta can't.

(WIP for now, I'll add more stuff later. Also want to agree with Brambane and Quziel that making the contradictions more specific is probably the way to go, as it means we can actually break down what routes are available inside of the broad spectrum of what a "movepool contradiction" means and actually consider whether or not any of those routes are actually worthwhile to explore.)
 
I agree with Brambane's suggestion above. We should be as specific as is reasonable to be in this stage. If the intent is to do e.g. "Wall that has a movepool drawback" and immediately go into CA2 to vote on a more specific drawback, there's no reason we can't just do that now, and submit "Wall that has no reliable recovery".
It would allow a better chance to discuss and make arguments concerning specific drawbacks that fall into a certain category, would it not?

Edit: Plus would it also not allow for getting even more specific about what we want to allow/disallow?
 
Hey, just writing here because the concept frankly is fairly confusingly worded.

I think we should allow for Ability and Stat based submissions that target "counterintuitive" rather than "bad" aspects. The concept mentions "Defensive pivot with speed boost" which is straight up better than defensive pivot with illuminate, its an ability with only upside and no downsides. Stats mentions Moltres-Galar, which like, its stats are just straight up good, they just read a bit more as a wall than a sweeper.

It would allow a better chance to discuss and make arguments concerning specific drawbacks that fall into a certain category, would it not?

Edit: Plus would it also not allow for getting even more specific about what we want to allow/disallow?

The thing is that without specifying the specific (movepool) drawback, you'll get folks voting for it with wildly different intent. Specifying it now leads to a cleaner CA, and ensures folks know what they're voting for. I think we should be treating each of the individual counterintuitive elements a bit differently, as much as that's a bit annoying to think about, just because of their different order in the process.
 
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