CAP 35 - Part 8 - Secondary Ability Discussion

[reachzero]

CAP35 is a SpD wall that is Electric/Normal, so we have a pretty reasonable idea what sort of teams would want to employ that combination and why. Electric/Normal is a pretty reasonable if unspectacular SpD type in that it guarantees good switches into Gholdengo and pretty good switches into Dragapult and Krilowatt. The main issue I perceive is that with Electromorphosis CAP35 is putting enormous stock in the Electric side of its identity--it's whole build suggests a Pokemon that uses Boots and clicks Volt Switch a lot. Being a defensive Pokemon means being used on balance or stall, and either way Pokemon like Gliscor, Great Tusk and Equilibra that change the hazard game are prime threats to your play style. This is partially addressable with Tera Blast and an anti-Ground Tera type, but at that point you're going to run into Tera competition with other threats and end up using special walls that Tera hog significantly less (like Glowking).

With just Electromorphosis, CAP35 is, quite simply, going to struggle to make progress when it comes in.

I see two ways of addressing this--one possibility would be Serene Grace, with the intention of discouraging non-Gliscor Ground types from coming in for free, while also threatening to spread paralysis if less unaddressed. Gliscor is probably the least threatening to CAP35 because of the threat of (Ice) Tera Blast, so I'd consider this pretty promising.

The second possibility is Mind's Eye , which is a bit unintuitive but helps to mitigate the risk of allowing in hazard game changes for free; unblockable Rapid Spin is the way CAP35 makes progress. I prefer Serene Grace in that it fits more naturally with the inherent strengths of Electric/Normal typing.

I see the value and intuitiveness of Seed Sower, but I feel that the value of conditionally getting Grassy Terrain up is just not great compared to using, say AV Rillaboom to take on similar threats and get Grassy Terrain unconditionally.

 

[Reviloja753]

My personal pick for our secondary ability right now is Seed Sower. The idea for it is pretty simple: Grassy Terrain is immensely strong to be able to set through your ability, and Grassy Surge is banned in secondary. That said, Seed Sower still works in conjunction with our kit to this point. As a tried and true stat ball, Seed Sower enhances our bulk by providing reliable passive healing independent of our item slot. This makes our defensive calculations more flexible. Moreover, it allows us to fulfill a utility-based role of triggering Grassy Terrain for fatter teams who appreciate the extra healing. Seed Sower being triggered identically to how Electromorphosis is also means that our two competitive abilities are exactly as "reliable" as each other, only doing different things when hit. Beyond just being intuitive, this also makes it just that tiny bit easier to think about the likelihood of one ability completely outshine the other.

I see the value and intuitiveness of Seed Sower, but I feel that the value of conditionally getting Grassy Terrain up is just not great compared to using, say AV Rillaboom to take on similar threats and get Grassy Terrain unconditionally.

I would like to disagree with this by saying I feel AV Rilla and Seed Sower CAP35 will find places on different teams. Rilla would find places on more offensively oriented teams (probably with Grassy Seed Hawlucha) which appreciate its combination of utility and power. Seed Sower CAP35 on the other hand would be placed on more defensive teams, where its high natural bulk and progress making tools give the whole team extra healing while CAP35 still acts a powerful wall in its own right. For example, a hypothetical team of CAP35/Garg/Tusk/Cresc/Glowking/Skarmory would be able to take good advantage of Seed Sower. That’s far from the only team comp that Seed Sower would let CAP35 enable, but it’s just to show that such a team is more than possible.

we explicitly don't have volt switch as a defining move, just ice beam and glare. Our role as a pivot is limited to hard switching.

This just is not how the process works. Its exclusion simply meant Amamama did not think the move would be significant enough to list as a defining move; it does not mean the move is necessarily banned.

 

[dex]

I see two ways of addressing this--one possibility would be Serene Grace, with the intention of discouraging non-Gliscor Ground types from coming in for free, while also threatening to spread paralysis if less unaddressed. Gliscor is probably the least threatening to CAP35 because of the threat of (Ice) Tera Blast, so I'd consider this pretty promising.

Hey, Ice Beam was a defining move and utilized in the BSR calc for the spread that won. While that isn't binding, we should probably not toy with the possibility of Serene Grace Ice Beam.

To chime in about Seed Sower, it's really low power. Like so low power it is not gonna see play. It doesn't boost any STAB or coverage, quite a few of the Ground-types in the tier run other Ground moves instead of Earthquake, and it is overall just too inconsistent in my opinion to be worth our time as a competitive secondary. You can say that it is as consistent as Electromorphosis, but Electromorphosis's boost is much more impactful, so much more that it completely edges Seed Sower out of all use cases. No thanks.

 

[koista12]

Hey, Ice Beam was a defining move and utilized in the BSR calc for the spread that won. While that isn't binding, we should probably not toy with the possibility of Serene Grace Ice Beam.

Serene Grace Blissey isnt striking fear into anyone's hearts; I don't think that Serene Grace Ice Beam freezes are anything to really worry about.

I like Serene Grace quite a bit to be honest- it fits with the role we seem to be leaning into as a paralysis spreader. I think that Serene Grace Tri Attack is also a funny byproduct, although likely irrelevant. For that reason I also quite like Synchronize, they fulfill a similar role.

I think both Filter and Bulletproof play a similar role in granting us some direct defensive bonuses, without giving a blanket type immunity. I think fears over Filter being too strong are overblown - sure cool we can take a Great Tusk or Lando ground move, once, and fire back with an Ice Beam. We could already do that with physical investment, and that was part of the logic of this spread. Filter just offers us a tradeoff of offensive power vs defensive presence. Bulletproof is cool for blocking Focus Blast and making Glowking sad.

I will expand more on these all later, but I think Wandering Spirit and Cotton Down are both pretty cool and unique. Aroma Veil, Immunity, and Sticky Hold are all terrible and we may as well just not have a secondary ability if we have one of those. I don't like any of the abilities like Heatproof that grant a type immunity/resist, just based on principle.

 

[Faux Focalors Furina]

Serene Grace Blissey isnt striking fear into anyone's hearts; I don't think that Serene Grace Ice Beam freezes are anything to really worry about.

I like Serene Grace quite a bit to be honest- it fits with the role we seem to be leaning into as a paralysis spreader. I think that Serene Grace Tri Attack is also a funny byproduct, although likely irrelevant. For that reason I also quite like Synchronize, they fulfill a similar role.

While we are not yet sure on what other status moves it will get, I would like to add that Aromatherapy (and other moves with similar functions) can possibly carve a niche as an indirect status spreader for CAP 36 by always removing the volatile status effect with the move and letting the other pokemon suffer it's own consequences. But most toxic spreaders are immune and burns don't really affect the user but hey I just want yo mention it for data gathering so yeah.

As an alternative to what I mentioned, Natural Cure could make it become a less passive blissey as it can become a status absorber and absorb toxics or burns and switch out with no consequences.

 

[Robraf]

Let‘s do a little bit of a deep dive into the applications of Wandering Spirit as I believe that ability to be very unique and potent in the current Meta Game. An issue with Wandering Spirit, that many ppl have already addressed, is the fact that it only triggers upon contact. 35 is more so leaning into a special wall cause its typing is best at checking some relevant special Attackers. Nevertheless I believe that a contact triggering ability fits perfectly as it also alleviates our MU against some physical attackers. There shouldn’t really be an issue with us being able to have a niche against physical attackers. I‘ll now list all the MUs where Wandering Spirit would have great affect:

• Being able to steal Regenerator is absolutely insane and basically disallows Mola to freely press Flip Turn as it doesn’t want to risk losing Regenerator neither does it want 35 to gain Regen.

• While likely irrelevant being able to come in on a potential Spin or Knock and then being able to stay in cause of Guts removal can force some uncomfortable switch arounds from the Colossoil Player. Similar reasoning for

• Neutralizing Caribolts Galvanize doesn’t necessarily affect 35 as much as it resists the electric moves anyway but it‘s a surefire way to get in some potent flying types that don‘t need to be afraid of Caribolts pesky boosted Electric STABs

• I don‘t believe this to be essential necessarily but taking away Pixilate removes the threat of Extreme Speed which therefore allows other mons to more easily switch into Hemo. 35 itself would likely still lose to Flare Blitz.

• Taking Poison Heal is nuts as it allows us to take Toxics and recover while their Toxic Orb is an active detriment.

• Stealing Stamina means that Venomicon actively can‘t win the MU no matter what. When they hit us once with Body Press they lose the ability to stack up defense boosts while making 35 the one that stacks up instead.

• Some other CAP mons it would have an effect on but idk how relevant they currently are

• Taking over Supreme Overlord completely disables the potency of this mon in late game clean scenarios while simultaneously also powering up 35 itself (depending on game state)

• maybe more niche but taking over Flame Body on a U-turn can put the opponent in an awkward spot where they want to pressure physically but they risk taking a burn in the meantime.

• Free Immunity to Cudgle? Yes pls sir

• I believe this to be less relevant but removing Sharpness has the benefit of obviously taking less damage but 35 can‘t really work with Sharpness itself and while we take less damage I think H-Samurott was always more about a spike machine.

• 35 turns from a Wall to a setup sweeper. Well no it probably wouldn’t as its special attack is too low for that and we surely won‘t give it setup. Claiming Speed Boost from Blaziken is still very valuable as we can spread fast glares and depending on the utility we get, we could escalate quickly.



This is about it. There are probably more mons that aren‘t in OU that are relevant to an extent in CAP but I believe we get the gist of it. Taking Power or Utility from certain mons that depend on their ability is a very distinct and different approach to using 35 as it would be with morph. I therefore believe both would see play and I doubt that morph would completely outclass Wandering Spirit entirely. Additionally Wandering Spirit only triggers upon Contact as I already stated. The good part is that 35 outside of Knock Off won‘t really be using physical moves likely, so we won‘t be switching back our ability unwillingly.

 

[StarFalcon555]

Going to throw in suggestions for Natural Cure, Aroma Veil, Static, and Trace here.

CAP 35 is pretty slow, which means that the likelihood of us getting hit by Toxic or Will-O-Wisp is a lot likelier than normal, as is the case for most slow walls. Natural Cure would essentially make CAP35 into kind of a bootleg Blissey, allowing it to get rid of these status conditions while getting out of tricky matchups. Admittedly, the fact that this spread doesn't have Volt Switch as a defining moves sucks for this Ability; slow pivots pair beautifully with abilities like Natural Cure, and this combination would have made CAP35 a great progress maker. Without Volt Switch, Natural Cure might be a bit too low power compared to Electromorphosis, but I still think its benefits make it worth bringing up.

Aroma Veil was a front-runner for Primary Ability, but even then I thought that it was much better suited as a secondary ability than as a primary ability. Now that we have our stat spread and the defining moves we've built the stat spread around, I think that there's more merit to Aroma Veil than before. An immunity to Taunt would make it much easier for CAP35 to spam Glare, allowing it to function even better as a paralysis spreader. Like Natural Cure, this ability might be a bit too low power, but I wanted to make an argument for it regardless.

Static means that we just end up making Bellibolt but better and that is just insanely funny to me. On a more serious note, though, you can't really go wrong with Static. It would make CAP35 into an excellent anti-contact Pokemon and one of the best punishers of U-turn in the metagame while also giving it a distinct niche from Electromorphosis.

I've seen Mummy/Lingering Aroma/Wandering Spirit thrown around, and while I do think Mummy and Lingering Aroma might be a bit too weak, I do see the appeal behing Wandering Spirit and support it. However, I do want to bring up Trace as an alternative. As seen with post-buff Kitsunoh, being able to come in and immediately copy an ability like Regenerator or Poison Heal is just really, really solid. Trace also announces itself upon switch-in, so there's no need to guess what ability CAP 35 could be running. I am admittedly torn on whether or not this would actually be better than Wandering Spirit, but it's definitely better than Mummy or Lingering Aroma, and would make a much better alternative to Wandering Spirit than those two Abilities.

Abilities that have been suggested that I like: Sticky Hold, Shield Dust, Cotton Down, Wandering Spirit, Synchronize (all really neat abilities that create a distinct niche for CAP35 while not overshadowing or being overshadowed by Electromorphosis)

Abilities that have been suggested that I dislike: Fluffy (as the one who submitted Fluffy for Primary Ability, I can tell you without a shadow of a doubt that it is way too strong for Secondary Ability), Seed Sower (if we really want Grassy Terrain support for CAP35 just run it alongside Rillaboom skull emoji), Serene Grace (Serene Grace Discharge + Ice Beam just sounds awful to try and play around, that combo alone makes this way too strong for Secondary Ability), Mind's Eye (literally only helps us into Dragapult and that's not even necessary since this spread has Ice Beam)

 

[TheDuckChris]

Putting on the hater cap to detail some issues i can see

Bulletproof - A big focus in stat stage was being able to tank Focus Blast from Gholdengo and Darkrai, specifically:

Taking 2 Scarf Dengo Focus Blasts when at max Special Defense investment, which also lets you gamble on Focus Blasts from Dengo, when not specially invested.

If we select bulletproof this becomes a moot point, and lets CAP35 really invest heavily into Physical defense with little drawback. This is a huge boost to bulk and would likely overshadow Electromorphis as well as somewhat invalidate parts of the stat process.

Cotton Down - This isn't the worst idea in theory but I do think it would be rarely used if ever. Lowering opposing speed is useful... if CAP35 has any chance of outspeeding something after a drop. At 56 speed with likely no investment this is rarely going to be the case. If we are thinking of something that is getting paralyzed and then outsped, it's possible this could be useful once in a blue moon but at the end of the day you're sacrificing 50% offensive power for a -1 speed on something that's already paralyzed?

Serene Grace - Ice beam... yeah. This is also more or less an offensive ability, just going for status effects instead of damage.

Mind's Eye - Just want to ask why it would ever be assumed that CAP35 gets rapid spin? That is a pretty big movepool addition and one that has already found its way onto 9 caps in the past. It's not really serving the concept to be an unblockable rapid spinner.

----
I know we already have a cap with it but I'm still interested in Forewarn or Anticipation to add scouting to CAP35s toolset, while helping defensively to avoid coverage.

 

[Robraf]

Let‘s do a little bit of a deep dive into the applications of Wandering Spirit as I believe that ability to be very unique and potent in the current Meta Game. An issue with Wandering Spirit, that many ppl have already addressed, is the fact that it only triggers upon contact. 35 is more so leaning into a special wall cause its typing is best at checking some relevant special Attackers. Nevertheless I believe that a contact triggering ability fits perfectly as it also alleviates our MU against some physical attackers. There shouldn’t really be an issue with us being able to have a niche against physical attackers. I‘ll now list all the MUs where Wandering Spirit would have great affect:

• Being able to steal Regenerator is absolutely insane and basically disallows Mola to freely press Flip Turn as it doesn’t want to risk losing Regenerator neither does it want 35 to gain Regen.

• While likely irrelevant being able to come in on a potential Spin or Knock and then being able to stay in cause of Guts removal can force some uncomfortable switch arounds from the Colossoil Player. Similar reasoning for

• Pretty much the same thing as with Mola, denying Regen recovery. Although to my Knowledge Crucibelle isn‘t really meta atm.

• I don‘t believe this to be essential necessarily but taking away Pixilate removes the threat of Extreme Speed which therefore allows other mons to more easily switch into Hemo. 35 itself would likely still lose to Flare Blitz.

• Taking Poison Heal is nuts as it allows us to take Toxics and recover while their Toxic Orb is an active detriment.

• Stealing Stamina means that Venomicon actively can‘t win the MU no matter what. When they hit us once with Body Press they lose the ability to stack up defense boosts while making 35 the one that stacks up instead.

• Some other CAP mons it would have an effect on but idk how relevant they currently are

• I mean do I have to say much? Gaining Purifying Salt is absolutely outstanding as 35 will be heavily targeted by things such as burns or poisons. And on the other hand 35 would be able to status Garg with either Glare or maybe we get something like Will-O later.

• Taking over Supreme Overlord completely disables the potency of this mon in late game clean scenarios while simultaneously also powering up 35 itself (depending on game state)

• maybe more niche but taking over Flame Body on a U-turn can put the opponent in an awkward spot where they want to pressure physically but they risk taking a burn in the meantime.

• Free Immunity to Cudgle? Yes pls sir

• I believe this to be less relevant but removing Sharpness has the benefit of obviously taking less damage but 35 can‘t really work with Sharpness itself and while we take less damage I think H-Samurott was always more about a spike machine.

• 35 turns from a Wall to a setup sweeper. Well no it probably wouldn’t as its special attack is too low for that and we surely won‘t give it setup. Claiming Speed Boost from Blaziken is still very valuable as we can spread fast glares and depending on the utility we get, we could escalate quickly.



This is about it. There are probably more mons that aren‘t in OU that are relevant to an extent in CAP but I believe we get the gist of it. Taking Power or Utility from certain mons that depend on their ability is a very distinct and different approach to using 35 as it would be with morph. I therefore believe both would see play and I doubt that morph would completely outclass Wandering Spirit entirely. Additionally Wandering Spirit only triggers upon Contact as I already stated. The good part is that 35 outside of Knock Off won‘t really be using physical moves likely, so we won‘t be switching back our ability unwilli

Going to throw in suggestions for Natural Cure, Aroma Veil, Static, and Trace here.

CAP 35 is pretty slow, which means that the likelihood of us getting hit by Toxic or Will-O-Wisp is a lot likelier than normal, as is the case for most slow walls. Natural Cure would essentially make CAP35 into kind of a bootleg Blissey, allowing it to get rid of these status conditions while getting out of tricky matchups. Admittedly, the fact that this spread doesn't have Volt Switch as a defining moves sucks for this Ability; slow pivots pair beautifully with abilities like Natural Cure, and this combination would have made CAP35 a great progress maker. Without Volt Switch, Natural Cure might be a bit too low power compared to Electromorphosis, but I still think its benefits make it worth bringing up.

Aroma Veil was a front-runner for Primary Ability, but even then I thought that it was much better suited as a secondary ability than as a primary ability. Now that we have our stat spread and the defining moves we've built the stat spread around, I think that there's more merit to Aroma Veil than before. An immunity to Taunt would make it much easier for CAP35 to spam Glare, allowing it to function even better as a paralysis spreader. Like Natural Cure, this ability might be a bit too low power, but I wanted to make an argument for it regardless.

Static means that we just end up making Bellibolt but better and that is just insanely funny to me. On a more serious note, though, you can't really go wrong with Static. It would make CAP35 into an excellent anti-contact Pokemon and one of the best punishers of U-turn in the metagame while also giving it a distinct niche from Electromorphosis.

I've seen Mummy/Lingering Aroma/Wandering Spirit thrown around, and while I do think Mummy and Lingering Aroma might be a bit too weak, I do see the appeal behing Wandering Spirit and support it. However, I do want to bring up Trace as an alternative. As seen with post-buff Kitsunoh, being able to come in and immediately copy an ability like Regenerator or Poison Heal is just really, really solid. Trace also announces itself upon switch-in, so there's no need to guess what ability CAP 35 could be running. I am admittedly torn on whether or not this would actually be better than Wandering Spirit, but it's definitely better than Mummy or Lingering Aroma, and would make a much better alternative to Wandering Spirit than those two Abilities.

Abilities that have been suggested that I like: Sticky Hold, Shield Dust, Cotton Down, Wandering Spirit, Synchronize (all really neat abilities that create a distinct niche for CAP35 while not overshadowing or being overshadowed by Electromorphosis)

Abilities that have been suggested that I dislike: Fluffy (as the one who submitted Fluffy for Primary Ability, I can tell you without a shadow of a doubt that it is way too strong for Secondary Ability), Seed Sower (if we really want Grassy Terrain support for CAP35 just run it alongside Rillaboom skull emoji), Serene Grace (Serene Grace Discharge + Ice Beam just sounds awful to try and play around, that combo alone makes this way too strong for Secondary Ability), Mind's Eye (literally only helps us into Dragapult and that's not even necessary since this spread has Ice Beam)

Wanted to address the ability trace mentioned here. It is by far better than even Wandering Spirit. Especially cause with Trace we immediately shut down a potential check with libra while Wandering Spirit doesn’t affect Libra unless it spins into us. Most Gliscor Sets don‘t even run EQ nowadays and would just try to toxic 35 but with trace that wouldn’t even be possible, so 35 would probably just win that MU or force Gliscors to run more EQ again. These are somewhat my main concerns that checks are just being beaten with trace

Cotton Down - This isn't the worst idea in theory but I do think it would be rarely used if ever. Lowering opposing speed is useful... if CAP35 has any chance of outspeeding something after a drop. At 56 speed with likely no investment this is rarely going to be the case. If we are thinking of something that is getting paralyzed and then outsped, it's possible this could be useful once in a blue moon but at the end of the day you're sacrificing 50% offensive power for a -1 speed on something that's already paralyzed?

I honestly believe that be biggest selling point on Cotten Down is lowering speed with slow momentum. Tho since Volt-Switch isn‘t a defining move, we don‘t have the guarantee to necessarily get it (although it‘s still very likely). If we should tho than Cotton Down has some merit. We are very likely to be slower and get hit before switching out which allows way more flexibility and counterplay since the opposing mon will be on -1 Speed. Especially useful against offensive mons as they are very prone to speed drops. The Revenge options become wider and the vulnerability to be exploited by setup sweepers is being diminished.

ModEdit: Merged Posts

 

[Reviloja753]

Time to yap about abilities that aren’t Seed Sower.

Shield Dust - This seems like a rather good choice to me, given that a number of the special attackers we want to check tend to use moves with secondary effects that can theoretically trip us up (Shadow Ball, Sludge Bomb, Dark Pulse, Hurricane, etc). However, I would like to hear what would make CAP35 with Shield Dust different from the notoriously not viable atm Cyclohm before fully supporting it.

Synchronize - I get the idea behind it to punish anything that would status us like Dragapult and Kitsunoh, but I frankly believe it is just too weak an ability to be run in any serious capacity over Electromorphosis. Not a fan.

Wandering Spirit - As far as contact punishing abilities go, I think this is the one that makes the most sense. Being able to steal Regenerator from Mola and Stamina from Book in particular are really huge, and potentially skewering the Poison Heal Pokémon is hilarious. Not really my absolute favorite, but I can see the vision.

Static - On the other end, I think Static is both redundant and uninspired choice that, if Bellibolt itself is any indication, could potentially outdo Electromorphosis to an extent we do not want. I feel we have other options for punishing contact if we really want to that is not this. Pass.

Aroma Veil - Like Synchronize, I suspect this will be far to weak to ever see use. Only two or three Pokémon run what this ability covers, so why would I use it when it will be useless 99% of the time and its use cases don’t even benefit us all that much?

Cotton Down - Similar to Seed Sower, this activates on being hit by anything, but its speed dropping is interesting because it complements our tendency to paralyze foes. This could potentially make CAP35 the ultimate speed control Pokémon, which would definitely be a way to carve a niche on teams outside of Electromorphosis. Throw Volt Switch on top and you have quite an interesting defensive pivot. I kind of want to hear more about it, but I do like it on the whole.

 

[Pipotchi]

How I feel about the abilities listed so far:

Yes:
Shield Dust is a good ability. Blocks scald burns, salt cure chip, sludge bomb poisoning, hurricane confusion, dark pulse flinch. I'm seeing a lot of mons that are stuff that we want to switch into on that kind of list. Powerful and feels relevant to our agenda.
Synchronize: I posted this one and I still like it. Makes us a better switchin into some ghosts and water types, perfect for our typing.
Immunity: a mild ability that grants safer switchins to Snaelstrom, some greedy Gliscors, and various Sludge Bomb users. I think relevant to our goals, but not very impactful overall.
Seed Sower is appealing: the only bad thing about it is that is isnt Grassy Surge, which is one of the best abilities. There could be a valid concern that it improves tankiness too much, which I think is fair enough. Its dampening any attack it hits hit with by 6%, completely eats Salt Cure passive damage when paired with leftovers, and also really helps dampen getting worn down by burn and u-turns from Dragapults. I enjoy how it doesnt feel that reliable when paired with Lucha/seed abusers, so it doesnt open up additional cans of worms.
Marvel Scale: So I did say that I dont like Water Compaction/Well Baked Body a lot, but I think marvel scale's permanent stat increase when switched out puts it on a different level. This mon can often get burned, and I think it somewhat matches its agenda by discouraging that. However, the effect isnt that appealing to me, id rather this mon improve its interactions with special attackers.
Heatproof: I like it. Ive been talking about burn for this entire yes-section, and this also dampens it. The resistance to fire is a mild but appealing addition to me- mostly only improving special fire type matchups (Cinderace and Hemo have other very threatening moves for us).
Sticky Hold: The quintessential mid cap ability. Typically sees use on mons that provide some kind of essential defensive quality, in very niche cases so they can do it the whole game: could be this mon, but not rly convinced
Aroma Veil: This is an okay ability that improves matchups into Encore, meaning you can recover in the face of things like Iron Valiant and Cresc. Its okay. Very minor


No:
Filter isnt that appealing. Having our designated weaknesses is the simplest route to balancing a mon, and filter potential pre-stats has been kinda neutralized by the very bulky spread we ended up with.
Fluffy is just kinda ridic, the calcs are not ok.
Volt Absorb: I dont really get it.
Sap Sipper: I dont really get it.
Water Compaction: This doesnt sound like it aligns with what we are trying to do. Fishing for a defense boost, in order to stay in longer? Make revenge killing harder? Are we gunna make it take advantage of staying in a bit longer? This sounds like it kinda sucks- plus water moves arent that common too, and the payoff is kinda unrelated to our aims, and moves like Scald and Flip Turn are used for their secondary effects rather than damage. Waterpon can still beat us with +2 power whip. Walking Wake can still beat us with Hydro Steam.
Well Baked Body: throw it on the pile of immunities
Rough Skin: boring, we just did this
Mummy: feels like its thrown around for novelty value- I do think it has some value but its a complex ability that mostly interacts with physical attackers so its often outside of our targets. Feels like going off on a tangent
Mold Breaker: doesnt affect much
Cotton Down: I dont like how it blanket checks every single sweeper's ability to 6-0 since anything that hits this becomes revenge killable. It is a good ability. But I dont think this is what secondary ability should be chucking on the pile with minimal discussion, this is a game changer
Minds Eye: I dont see how this would be desired, turns a Super Fang into a a natures madness, which is a 4th move slot slash at best
Serene Grace: Discharge and Ice Beam, that sounds like a sadistic addition to the metagame
Trace: Im bored by this one too, we've talked it to death and yep it is a good ability

Out of the Yes abilities, Sticky Hold, Aroma Veil, are Immunity are ones that I could see not getting any use due to just being a bit weaker/more niche. So I wouldnt be surprised if they werent slated.

 

[dex]

I really don’t understand why people are writing Sticky Hold off as too weak to see use. Gastrodon has genuinely run the ability over Storm Drain, an immunity ability, including in SV! Y’all be way underestimating how beneficial being Trick immune and perma immune to hazards is. Sticky Hold is genuinely one of the best options being discussed here, it seems pretty perfect. Saying it is too weak to see use is super disingenuous. I’d be more on board with the idea if there weren’t examples of how good the ability is on a defensive Pokémon. I’d say it’s way closer to outpacing Electromorphosis than being outpaced, if anything, the ability is that good here.

 

[Da Pizza Man]

Going to talk about some abilities for a bit, but before I do that, I need to mention one thing as it's going to be extremely relevant to my stance on several abilities.

I heavily disagree with quziel's assessment that our typing's contradiction here is implied through the lack of resistances rather than our weaknesses. Both of our weaknesses here play greatly into how we function here, and we already established in the last few stages that we would rather want to play around our weaknesses through being able to pressure switch-ins rather than just outright negating them (There's a reason why Levitate was blacklisted during the Primary Ability Stage). I don't know why we would want to all of a sudden reverse course on this. Let's instead try to focus on bolstering our strengths here. Anyways here's my stance on a few abilities

Abilities I like

Synchronize: Really cool way of punishing status. Being able to apply pressure on mons like Dragapult and Cresceidon is really huge for us, since those mons lose out on quite a bit when they have any sort of status on them.
Sticky Hold: I agree quite a bit with dex's assessment here. This ability is a bit of a meme in cap, which is why I think people are sort of conditioned into thinking its weak, but we've already seen how good this can be on defensive Pokemon.

Abilities I don't like

Bulletproof: This might sound odd for me to put here, as I championed this ability during the Primary Ability Stage, but I think it's just too strong as a secondary ability.
Trace: The interaction with Equilibra is anti-concept, and I don't think this has a ton of other notable interactions outside of waterpon honestly (I guess there's Heatran as as well, but that mon ain't exactly super common atm and it has earth power anyways).
Seed Sower: This is anti-concept and not even that strong of an ability, pass.
Marvel Scale: Synchronize does this ability's job much, much better. The increased bulk doesn't do enough to offset the constant chip we are taking here, especially when its boosting us on the side that we care less about. Also this is a very minor point, but CAP has enough noob traps as it is, and I don't want to enable another.
Fluffy: I also like putting a high power ability as a secondary ability, and I also adding a Fire-type weakness to a mon that wants to switch-in on something that occasionally runs Fire-type coverage. In case it isn't obvious this is sarcasm.

 

[Pipotchi]

The reason why I considered Sticky Hold to be weaker isnt disingenuous, but rather because it struggles with knock off users in the tier, with shaky matchups into Gliscor, Roaring Moon, Rillaboom, Ogerpon-W, Colossoil, Great Tusk, Iron Treads, physical/mixed Iron Val.. the best part about it is definitely Argho matchup and being a bit better into Ghold, which is definitely nice enough which is why its fine enough to slate for me, but I still find it to be mid. Like I could definitely see it stonewalling Argho knock off the entire game, but the remaining of mons are so commonplace that I dont know if I'd expect to see it reliably used on an all-boots team as an alternative to hazard control for instance.

Also, the only other example of Sticky Hold that Ive seen at OU/CAP level recently (and how I actually expect this to perform if it wants to be a consistent Sticky Hold user) has been using tera to circumvent its typing which isn't something that I was too excited by the prospect of, considering the concept is specifically about powering through having a mid typing. I see this as a more likely comparison than a Gastrodon one which has a better starting typing for taking Knock Off in its lower tiers- tho I dont actually know much about lower tiers and whether Gastro is using tera or not also.
Outside of Sticky Hold, this mon can also maintain its hazard immunity with HDB by just playing into its positive matchups which is mostly special attackers, so it doesnt rly feel like its granting much new. I like the Ghold consistency with Trick tho

 

[Blue glass]

What about Natural Cure? It helps CAP 35 to get rid off poison and burn and I don't think it would overshadow Electromorphosis.

 

[Earthflax]

Discussion seems to have slowed down, so here's everyone's 12 hour warning. Here's your chance to get your favorite abilities of the bunch on the slate! I've included a few abilities that I'm unsure on and would like to see more discussion on if there is interest in them.

Spoiler

Marvel Scale
Mummy / Lingering Aroma
Synchronize
Heatproof
Mold Breaker

 

[a fairy]

Marvel Scale - I'm less motivated by this than other status-focused abilities, but I can see the value for sure as a niche defensive move that helps on the physical side of things. Seems decent for the power range I'm imagining, if a touch on the weaker side, which is fine. I don't think it'd be a vote priority of mine, but also one I'd be satisfied with should it be the result.

Mummy / Lingering Aroma - I'm a fan here, I think. It doesn't help our physdef as much as other potential abilities, much of its benefit comes from hard-to-define boosts to the gamestate. This also has a very strong presence in the "meta" department, with the back-and-forth prediction btwn it and E.sis benefiting the stronger player - whether the CAP35 user successfully keeping it shielded for longer, or the opponent for accurately reading the plays of when CAP35 does/doesn't switch in to predict the ability.

Synchronize - This motivates me. It's a fun ability that isn't blankly powerful and only serves niche uses, but can be incredibly beneficial if invested in. Nobody uses Mew for it, but nobody is going to be disappointed when it activates and burns the Alomamola or whatever. I think this is worth further consideration.

Heatproof - I find it hard to be invested either for or against this move. Maybe I'm missing some explanation posts where someone really threw in for it, but I'm not sure what it'd add. Is the point the burn immunity? I don't see why we'd want that over MScale or S.nize, it seems simultaneously too present (entirely blanking WoW/Scald/whatever) while also being too limited in scope (does nothing for any other status condition). It's surely not about adding a resistance, right?

Mold Breaker - This seems awfully offensive of an ability. I'm not sure that's what I want personally out of a secondary ability, I'd much rather see something that would add something niche-yet-useful on a defensive position than an(other) offensive/"trickster"-focused ability.

 

[Gekokeso]

Approval
Heatproof: Gaining a fire resistance is quite nice but as mentioned before burns are the main status that concerns us, so having an ability that mitigates its chip damage is quite useful for our long term longevity.
Synchronize: A very fine option. A lot of status spreaders like Dragapult, Kitsunoh and Creseidon really hate getting burned themselves, so having an ability that punishes said burns as an attempt to make progress is quite nice.
Mummy / Lingering Aroma: Possibly my favourite out of these 5 last minute suggestions. I like this one because it leans into helping the bulk flexibility of 35, as more physically defensive sets can appreciate its ability to screw up targets like Kingambit, Caribolt and Hemogoblin.

Disapproval
Mold Breaker: The singular case I see for the inclusion of this ability is to have glare hit Gholdengo. While that is nice and all, a similar effect can be replecated with the option of Nuzzle instead of Glare if people really want to run it, which still keeps electromorphosis.
Marvel Scale: As others have said before there are many better ways to punish status than a simple buff to the physical defense. The few targets than spread status to us are specially leaning anyways.

 

[thundergoos]

Figured I’d chime in on a few things.

Abilities I support:

My favorite contender for secondary is Wandering Spirit. This works differently than Mummy and Lingering Aroma; where these two simply spread your ability to overwrite the opponent’s, Wandering Spirit actually swaps your ability with the opponent. It’s a contact-based Skill Swap. As other users have stated, this has very interesting effects for many of 35’s matchups. One of the biggest is denying Alomomola’s regen on a Flip Turn by stealing it instead. If we snipe Kingambit’s Supreme Overlord at an optimal game state, 35 suddenly becomes a terror on the field. Robraf made a very solid post up above about all of the sequences and interactions this ability has, so I highly recommend checking that out.

While it’s true that we are specially biased in terms of our bulk, Wandering Spirit presents a compelling method to bolster our physical presence indirectly on implication alone. It presents a mind game: does the opponent risk making contact and losing their ability? One of the cooler things about this ability is that it’s also not telegraphed. The opponent, if using a physical attacker, won’t know whether or not 35 is about to get Charged or steal their ability until they attack. I think WS is the perfect power level to compliment Electromorphosis, and it would have a strong use case alongside it. I don’t think it would overshadow it, they do very different things. But having access to both abilities would perfectly round out CAP35, in my opinion.

I also am a fan of Shield Dust. Having a built-in Covert Cloak is a very effective way to bolster our longevity. This is definitely a lower power option but it’s an effective one, and I don’t see a way we could go wrong with it.

Abilities I’m on the fence on:

Bulletproof is an incredibly strong ability for our purposes here because it completely changes our matchup into several key attackers. We now become a complete hard counter to Gholdengo rather than a strong check, and we also get the additional benefit of blocking some incredibly strong attacks from potent beasts like Darkrai. Finally, the interaction with our Ghost immunity and Tera is both funny and useful: even if we Tera, we still preserve our immunity to stray Shadow Balls from the likes of Dragapult and Gholdengo. Bulletproof is very strong here, but that’s why I’m on the fence about it. I’m unsure if this is really a suitable secondary ability for us. I could be persuaded on it, but I’ll need to see some more thoughts about it.

In contrast, while I think Synchronize is undoubtedly handy at making us really annoying to status spreaders, I just don’t think it’s really strong enough to opt for here. Secondary abilities ride that fine line of wanting to be powerful enough that they’re chosen more than like, 3% of the time, whilst also not overshadowing the primary. I just don’t see Synchronize realistically having much of a use case over Electromorphosis, to be honest. It’s a good ability, but I’m leaning towards a no on it.

Sticky Hold is just kinda whatever? It’s a decent effect, don’t get me wrong. Certainly helps us become a Knock absorber. But it just seems highly underpowered and underwhelming here, honestly. I don’t really care much for it. I see the vision, but there are much more interesting routes to take this (cough, Wandering Spirit, cough).

Marvel Scale is also interesting because once activated, it’s a constant boost to our physical bulk. I could see this having a genuine use case, I just also worry about it perhaps being a bit too strong with our physical bulk. I could go either way on it, really.

Trace is strong and does Trace things. We know what it does, we know why it works. So it doesn’t really seem that interesting to me in comparison with something more novel and unknown to us like Wandering Spirit. Additionally — and this is more of a personal preference thing — we’ve also used this ability extremely recently with Kitsunoh, so I just am kind of bored of it? I want something more interesting, more fun, which, again, is why I’m pushing so hard for Wandering Spirit.

Abilities I do not support:

I’ll get the big ones out of the way first. All immunity or pseudo immunity abilities are, in my opinion, anti-concept and should not be slated. I’ve made my opinion on immunities pretty clear throughout this process, but we absolutely should not be tampering with our weakness and resistance profiles. To this end, Storm Drain/Well Baked Body/Sap Sipper/Volt Absorb/etc. should all be left in the dirt. Hard pass.

Heatproof is a little more interesting because it doesn’t give us a straight up immunity so much as it simply provides us an additional resistance and an immunity to burns only, but again, we shouldn’t be tampering with our resistances. No thank you.

Seed Sower is a cool ability, but I also just don’t really see it being used much over Elec, if I’m being honest. Additionally, this has meaningful interactions with alleviating our ground weakness, which I think is a big, anti-concept no-no. Pass.

Fluffy. Lmao.

Mold Breaker is kind of useless outside of some very specific matchups, like being able to Glare Ghold and Garg. Outside of that, this just doesn’t seem useful or powerful enough to really see use alongside or over Elec.

Lastly, Cotton Down. Oh, Cotton Down, one day we will have a process for you. This one pains me because I love this ability and have been incredibly interested to see a CAP with this for a while. The problem, though, is that I think we would need a more intentional space in our process for this ability than simply tacking it on Willy nilly for a secondary. This ability is incredibly unique and has some very strong effects, but I don’t think it’s applicable for a secondary. I don’t know that we would need to devise a whole process around it specifically, but I think it demands more conversation than we have the space to give it right now. So regrettably, I must advise against it this time around.

That’s all for now, thanks for reading! :D

 

[Imw0rstadP0keM0n]

Marvel Scale

it's *fine* but it just feels like worse fluffy and runs both into the potential of increasing our bulk too much, as well as homogenizing our sets too much (really don't like flame orb on a wall without a pivot)

Mummy

it's cool but maybe a little too weak? Yes stealing things like Regen from alola is cool, but alola already doesn't want to flip turn on us for electromorphosis. The other use cases are cool but wouldn't we rather just make our electric stab hit way way harder in 99% of scenarios?

Synchronize

we already can't be paralyzed, we're unlikely to eat a burn unless we switch-in on it, and the tiers' primary Toxic users are poison type. This is too weak to consider.

Heatproof

nope, adds another resistance and is generally anti-concept.

Mold Breaker

isn't this just "Glare Gholdengo: the Ability"? outside of that, very little niche.

---

other stuff

Cotton Down

i dislike cotton down because we are A) a slow spread, B) this pre-supposes we add Volt Switch later, which we really shouldn't due to skipping it in stat spread + it having a BSR reduction tied to it, and C) CAP 35 already having access to Glare which is a phenomenal movement reduction tool.

Shield Dust

again hate to promote my own ideas but free unknockable Covert Cloak is a great idea for a wall that really wants to eat FBlasts, Sludge Bombs, etc.

 

[Palosaks]

Pretty late but I'm going to try to give my two cents.

Sticky Hold is fantastic here. The main use is obvious, permanent boots is very nice for any mon and for a defensive mon neutral to rocks and with no immunity to grounded hazards it's amazing. Additionally preventing choice items from being Tricked onto us is also nice, helps us win more against Gholdengo too. Another thing that should be noted is how other items also benefit from Sticky Hold, mainly Leftovers and Covert Cloke. For Leftovers Sticky Hold allows us to have their passive recovery at all times, great for negating chip damage from sources like Burn while also being passive healing that can't be removed, it's plainly good even if not as much as boots. As for Covert Cloke this gives us essentially Shield Dust at the cost of an item slot, not an insignificant trade off but having the ability to replicate another ability that is quite good for us is pretty notable.

Speaking of which, Shield Dust is also good. Others have already spoke the praise of this one so I'll keep this bit brief but removing the secondary effects of moves is good, helps us minimize the chip damage we're take a lot and helps us switch into a lot of mons that we already want to. Not much more to say.

Heatproof is another one I quite like. At first glance it's easy to write off because of the Fire resistance it adds, but at the same time I don't think it does too much to the defensive profile, it makes some things easier to switch in on but most mons using fire moves have other options to hit us at least neutrally. The real appeal of this ability lies in the burn reduction and reducing the chip damage we take which is always appreciated. I think what particularly makes it stand out compared to other abilities that target status and have been mentioned is how it helps with all sources of burn while also making the chip from the burn much more manageable. With something like Synchronize, while it punishes targets like Kitsunoh and Cresceidon, it doesn't do a thing to some targets like Mollux or Moltres limiting the usefulness of the ability, mean while something like Marvel Scale does nothing to actually mitigate the chip damage and it just provides a negligible boost. Heatproof reduces burn damage while reducing that damage from anything that can burn us, meaning there's plenty of cases where this ability would see use.

To expand on Synchronize on its own, while it's nice for annoying status spreaders, I'm not sure that's enough to be used over Electromorphosis, mainly because if we get statused then we're still dealing with the chip damage which means the opponent still benefits from statusing us, sure it becomes more of a trade off for them but its also a trade off for us and that makes it not really seem worth run imo.

I don't like Mold Breaker, it's far too niche letting us hit Gholdengo with Glare and not do much else. There's no way this gets run over Electromorphosis.

As for Mummy, I don't really have strong feelings on it. I see what it aims to do, it just doesn't really strike me as all to good or interesting compared to some of the other abilities post. Wandering Spirit just feels better to me in terms of what the abilities are going for but I also don't have too much to add for it either.

 

[Earthflax]

Thus ends our time together. Had a great time figuring this joint out; without further ado, here's the slate!
Immunity
Seed Sower
Heatproof
Wandering Spirit
Sticky Hold
No Competitive Ability

brief explanations

Generally, I wanted to limit this slate to options which are generally weaker than our primary ability but change certain matchups in our favor and are useful in the builder and in game. I opted for a broader slate than is typical for secondary abilities, but I have no qualms with slating more good choices compared to less, and I do truly believe that all of these abilities can succeed in some capacity on CAP35. There were a lot of abilities which did not make slate and had some discussion in here, too many for me to write about, but let it be known that I did take them all into account and I always appreciate everyone's creativity and analysis.

Immunity and Heatproof both provide resilience vs status, with Immunity providing a complete immunity to Toxic, Sludge Bomb poisons and the like, while Heatproof halves burn damage (while also providing a very useful Fire resistance, which I think is completely fine given the scope and direction of our 'mon.)

Wandering Spirit has some useful interactions, such as stealing Regenerator from pivots, punishing some contact moves from the like of Venomicon, etc. I opted for Wandering Spirit over Lingering/Mummy as I felt that the dynamic of Spirit, despite somewhat diminishing more careful teamwide play around the nullified ability, is still sufficiently practical for the team while also posing more of a threat to pivots.

Sticky Hold is just very good for a defensive 'mon. Knock Off absorbers are few and far between (and might become even fewer in a week's time!) and on a Pokemon as defensive as this one having permanent Boots or Leftovers recovery can benefit many teamstyles while also not being particularly overbearing.

Seed Sower feels like an exception to this slate. This ability doesn't help with many 1v1 interactions; unlike others, I personally believe the EQ interactions are almost negligible as our few Earthquake users have other paths to beating CAP35. However, it does provide a compelling and interesting piece of team support that also comes with fair opportunity cost.

Tagging kenn to berate me. Thanks a lot y'all and see you in Flavor! EF out!

 

[kenn]

No issues here for the slate! Let's get to voting!

No fun FE fact this time so I will just show off my lead FEH unit: