CAP 36 - Part 6 - Defining Moves

[sunny004]

The biggest challenge is right there in the first sentence: we need to construct a moveset out of only three moves that is able to serve both a wall/tank and a cleaner. Moreover, we have to consider how the transformation is being actively incentivized or discouraged by this moveset. CAP Song was never going to be a particularly strong move to begin with, but with No Guard chosen as our ability, it's shaping up to have a much lower BP relative to the rest of our moveset, making it an even weaker option. We need to be mindful of choosing moves that would make the base form so self-sufficient as to drop CAP Song entirely. And on top of all of this, our moveset needs to move us closer towards the concept: enabling the base form to cripple or weaken the opposing team, "setting the stage" for the pirouette form to clean up later.

So we've got to choose moves that can function on both an offensive and defensive chassis, that can methodically put the opposing team into position to be cleaned, that won't completely overshadow the strength of our transformation, and with one moveslot already being taken up by CAP Song––I'd say we have our work cut out for us. With that context out of the way, let's get into some questions.

Hello, this is my first discussion post here so apologies if I got something wrong. I want to say at the outset that I prefer a 36 moveset where each move provides at least some utility on either forme; they can be much more useful on one forme than the other, but as you will see for #3 below I think that no move that 36 runs should be absolute dead weight on either forme. As to the questions:

1) Inferno should be required. Afaik, the impetus for 36 having No Guard as its ability was for the specific purpose of utilizing Inferno's unique combination of Offensive (high-Base Power) and Defensive (burn) utility. If 36 doesn't have Inferno, then to be frank, I fail to see why we decided to go with No Guard at all. Depending on the route we go re: point 3 below I think we can do without Zap Cannon. I think the combination of Inferno + Blizzard is already very strong, and adding Zap Cannon creates a lot of opportunity cost of running other moves.

2) Don't have a ton of thoughts to add here besides the fact that Freeze-Dry (despite it being a STAB move and not technically "coverage") should be available. Not required per se, but 36 should have the option to improve its matchup against bulky Water-types.

3) I frankly believe that any status moves are detrimental to the concept. Note that I am not saying utility moves, but specifically non-damaging status moves (e.g. entry hazards like Spikes, status-based hazard removal like Defog, and non-damaging recovery like Recover).

We are already facing some pretty severe 4MSS due to the Song taking up one slot. I think the main issue with status moves here is that barring a couple of exceptions, they are all pretty much dead weight as soon as we transform into the cleaner role, and our cleaning abilities aren't great if we are trying to clean with exclusively two moves. I also think that adding status moves makes 36 more self-sufficient, which is what we are trying to avoid. Having no status moves is a good way to make 36 functional in both of its roles while making it reliant on its teammates for stuff like entry hazards.

Therefore, I think we should be aiming to include damaging utility moves to fulfill the wall / tank role and help us set the stage while still being a functional cleaner. We already are running with this theme somewhat with Inferno and the Song (damage-dealing moves that act to spread status and "boost" our stats, respectively), and I think we should lean more into it to maximize the effectiveness of both.

This is why I like moves like Knock Off, Rapid Spin, Mortal Spin, Ice Spinner, U-turn, Volt Switch, and even (radically) Stone Axe/Ceaseless Edge, all of which provide utility while still not being complete dead weight as soon as we transform.

Edit: We aren't discussing items per se here but four attacks also enables Assault Vest, which helps both formes, especially the wall.

 

[Spammernoob]

Tentative 24hr (probably a little less) warning before shifting focus a little. Some thoughts for now:

Blizzard is a universal move for Ice-types, I plan on leaving it as required. While there are indeed possible routes for this mon that don’t include Blizzard, the mere existence of those routes is not enough to justify them; there should be a high bar for excluding a universal move, and I don’t believe that bar has been met. Not really sure what we’re doing here if we make a No Guard Ice-type and then deny it Blizzard.

Zap Cannon, this one’s weird. I reject the argument that this move is inherently broken or impossible to balance. There is no such thing as “inherently broken” when we don’t even know what our stats will be yet. With an appropriate BSR penalty, this move will be fine. With that said, there are certainly other reasons this move might not be good for us. I’m not a huge fan of it myself. But still—it’s just as concept-relevant on paper as Inferno is, it’s possible to balance, and Zap/Blizzard/Fire Blast is a pretty coherent moveset. I believe Zap Cannon is a valid route, but I’m not convinced it is a desirable route. So, the question of whether or not it’s included on the DM list seems to me less about the move itself and more about the philosophical criteria you’re using to determine what counts as a Defining Move and what doesn’t. Is simply having a valid design space enough for a move to be included on the DM list? Should we be agnostic during this stage about whether a move is a desirable or undesirable option, leaving that judgment up to voters during Stats? (For the record, if Zap Cannon does land on the DM list, it would be in the “Choose At Least One” category alongside Inferno.)

I’d also like to see a little more discussion on the random utility moves that can help “set the stage” for the cleaner. Stuff like hazards, status, Taunt, whatever else, specifically anything that impacts calcs or would come with a BSR penalty.

OK after thinking about it. I can kinda see a route with Zap Cannon + average speed (~110 range) for cleaner form, where the para speed drop allows it to outspeed key threats to clean. This is definitely wishful thinking in actual game, but there are ways it could play out well and is actually pretty interesting, similar to how Serperior set up its own sweeps by forcing Glare onto Torn-T in pastgens. I'm pretty good with moving Inferno and Zap Cannon together in “Choose At Least One". That being said, I hate paralysis so I hope it doesn't win...

 

[quziel]

Very fine with having Inferno mutually exclusive with Zap Cannon and having folks choose one of the two to base their spread around. Of course also having any Zap Cannon routes also having a hefty BSR penalty.

I feel like we broadly have three routes set out in front of us in that case:

Inferno / Blizzard / Thunder / Relic Song as our "goldenrod department store special v1" whereby your utility comes from inflicting Burn on anything burnable, fishing for Para on Fire types, and utilizing the raw offensive prowess of your latter forme to try to clean afterwards.

Inferno / Freeze Dry / Relic Song / Utility as a slower, more grindy style, whereby the utility move specifically tries to cut the longevity of our usual answers. Utility here is the following imo:

Encore / Taunt / Spite to force Fires into recovery loops, or deny them (Synergy with 36p, incentivizes 36-a to be fast and weak)
Knock Off to cut Fires off of their boots addiction (Synergy with 36a)
Poison Status (Poison Gas, Poison Powder, Toxic) to wear them down (synergy with 36a)
Magnet Rise to let you actually beat Grounds (synergy with 36a, incentivizes 36a to be faster than Gliscor)
Substitute is fairly obvious, though probably is also worse than just running Blizzard last

Fire Blast / Blizzard / Zap Cannon / Relic Song as our "goldenrod department store special v2", where the explicit focus is on overwhelming Fires using our guaranteed Paralysis, and our dedicated answers become pokemon such as Shox and Garganacl which we just can't really touch. Implies a slower 36p compared to other routes.

There's also the actually optimal route of giving Dynamic Punch, Triple Axel, and coverage for Waters and deciding to hax through all our answers using the power of Confusion.

I suppose that makes the Required/Optional list the following:

Required: Fire Blast, Blizzard, Freeze Dry, Relic Song

Optional Choose One: Inferno, Zap Cannon

Optional: Thunder, Encore, Knock Off, Poison Gas, Knock Off, Toxic, Magnet Rise, Taunt

 

[a fairy]

Little short and directionless on this, but I worry that these focuses on 100+ BP inaccurate moves run the risk of overwhelming our defensive side with a focus on the sweeper form. I'm not saying that it can't make use of Blizzard or Inferno/Zap Cannon (which, btw, Zap Cannon way more in line IMO with our concept than Inferno but also way more infuriating) as a defensive option, but when we're talking about stuff that a defensive 'mon needs and limited slots to do it, I'm worried that we're going to have an opposite Meloetta, something that desperately wants to switch out of its base form ASAP (to gain access to a more offensive toolset, whatever that means re: IVs, Type, etc) and never wants to spend much time in its defensive form.

If this 'mon has Relic Song's clone, Ice STAB, a "setup move" (see Inferno/Zap Cannon), that's three moves intended to get it to its cleaner state and then sweep. Sure, the setup move ostensibly is supposed to be the defensive forme's move of choice, but are we actually saying that the two popular options are genuine defensive utility options? They are something a defensive 'mon is using offensively to prepare for later, but now we have a defensive 'mon that has one slot to actually fit its role as a defensive role. Presumably that's some form of healing, it's hard to imagine a defensive 'mon without healing options, but maybe not? I saw pushback against healing at all earlier.

What is our 'mon doing in a defensive form right now? Just setting up for itself for later? Do teams in Gen 9 have space for a 'mon that has a defensive profile but can't realistically contribute to the defensive backbone of a team for its teammates? If I'm loading up a 'mon with those 3 moves and one filler, be it coverage or even recovery, I'm not sure I can see it being a defensive backbone piece as much as it's just its own little thing waiting for an opportunity - something more similar to, say, Kommo-O than Clefable. I dunno.

 

[vishy fishy]

I know I’m bad at expressing opinions but here are mine:
Is the transforming move relic song or a clone? If it’s a clone, can’t it be a type other than normal. If so, what if it was an ice move?
Chilling melody?
Also I think we should give this thing flash cannon, just so it has a steel stab for base even though it won’t use it, just makes sense.

 

[Brigtel]

I’d also like to see a little more discussion on the random utility moves that can help “set the stage” for the cleaner. Stuff like hazards, status, Taunt, whatever else, specifically anything that impacts calcs or would come with a BSR penalty.

Many people above have already mentioned a lot of utility moves that would work well at accomplishing our role, with Knock Off especially allowing CAP 36 to make permanent progress against its checks, notably fire types, to prepare for a clean later on using the Pirouette form, and it accomplishes this without resorting to additional offensive coverage like a ground or water move.

I am also a big fan of Taunt and how it can prevent recovery from usual checks, allowing us to wear them down slowly again in preparation for cleaning, as well as many of the offensive utility moves brought up by sunny004.

I'd also like to add another suggestion to that list, Psychic Noise, as it is essentially a pseudo taunt that will work just as well in trying to deny recovery (though it is unsafe against status, which might be a problem depending on who exactly we want to deny recovery on). The advantage is that it actually deals some small amount of damage, half of our main STAB, making it slightly easier to click on the switch and more rewarding to use on a trade or prediction against a defensive pokemon.

Part of me does worry that this could make the defensive form simply too efficient at shutting down mons that are supposed to be checks and counters (see the list) as opposed to how much riskier taunt is, but I believe it fulfills question 3 being particularly effective at setting the stage for a later clean, and should be Optional.

 

[EeveeWillEatYou]

I think the main thing to consider is whether Inferno is a powerful spammable, essentially default move - or a powerful mix of utility and damage but not as powerful. If. We decide to go for giving CAP36 multiple additional strong but low accuracy moves beyond inferno, such as blizzard or thunder) it will not make CAP36s damage higher, as the powerful moves will be made up for in the stats department. Should we decide not to give CAP36 any more such moves, and instead make it rely on less powerful equivalent moves such as thunderbolt and ice beam the effective damage of them will change by very little (One difference is that thunder has a 30% rather than 10% para chance, which combined with the inherent luck of para is somewhat uncomfortably RNG fishy). In practice the choice of defining moves will not as much effect the damage output of the moves themselves, but rather the damage output of Inferno, as lowered powered moves will lead to a higher SPA stat and therefore more inferno damage. And vice versa for higher power moves.

IMO This is the main consideration for picking if we should have additional high power low accuracy moves.

Personally I am inclined to believe that not having any additional strong moves might be for the best.
Firstly this really puts Inferno in center stage has an incredibly spam-able move, since you are sacrificing far less potential damage by not clicking for example blizzard. I think this is a positive, both in giving CAP36 an intersting and unique identity, but also by doubling down on the role compression of Inferno - which was the entire reason for the choice of No Guard. By making Inferno more spamable it also leaves more room in the moveset for support moves, which might otherwise be difficult if it becomes overreliant on additional damage moves to be a big threat.
Secondly it gives more room for moves such as freeze-dry or perhaps psychic noise which might struggle to find a place when competing with blizzard. Once again giving CAP36 an incredibly distinct offensive identity. Quite importantly lower base SPA will also most likely lower the effective damage of our Relic Song move, making it slightly more costly to transform, which we probably don’t want.
Finally, and perhaps more specifically I really hate thunder as a spamable move, and turns a mon that is very anti-rng into having a super RNG spreading move being part of its core moveset. Ofc this can be circumvented by just not giving CAP36 Thunder, but that would sacrifice the ideas of electric coverage being thrown around.

All of my points on why we should go for a lower bp move pool are however somewhat subjective in the direction of CAP36, but I urge all of you to consider the practical effects of giving CAP36 additional high power-low accuracy moves.