CAP 36 - Part 6 - Defining Moves

[sunny004]

The biggest challenge is right there in the first sentence: we need to construct a moveset out of only three moves that is able to serve both a wall/tank and a cleaner. Moreover, we have to consider how the transformation is being actively incentivized or discouraged by this moveset. CAP Song was never going to be a particularly strong move to begin with, but with No Guard chosen as our ability, it's shaping up to have a much lower BP relative to the rest of our moveset, making it an even weaker option. We need to be mindful of choosing moves that would make the base form so self-sufficient as to drop CAP Song entirely. And on top of all of this, our moveset needs to move us closer towards the concept: enabling the base form to cripple or weaken the opposing team, "setting the stage" for the pirouette form to clean up later.

So we've got to choose moves that can function on both an offensive and defensive chassis, that can methodically put the opposing team into position to be cleaned, that won't completely overshadow the strength of our transformation, and with one moveslot already being taken up by CAP Song––I'd say we have our work cut out for us. With that context out of the way, let's get into some questions.

Hello, this is my first discussion post here so apologies if I got something wrong. I want to say at the outset that I prefer a 36 moveset where each move provides at least some utility on either forme; they can be much more useful on one forme than the other, but as you will see for #3 below I think that no move that 36 runs should be absolute dead weight on either forme. As to the questions:

1) Inferno should be required. Afaik, the impetus for 36 having No Guard as its ability was for the specific purpose of utilizing Inferno's unique combination of Offensive (high-Base Power) and Defensive (burn) utility. If 36 doesn't have Inferno, then to be frank, I fail to see why we decided to go with No Guard at all. Depending on the route we go re: point 3 below I think we can do without Zap Cannon. I think the combination of Inferno + Blizzard is already very strong, and adding Zap Cannon creates a lot of opportunity cost of running other moves.

2) Don't have a ton of thoughts to add here besides the fact that Freeze-Dry (despite it being a STAB move and not technically "coverage") should be available. Not required per se, but 36 should have the option to improve its matchup against bulky Water-types.

3) I frankly believe that any status moves are detrimental to the concept. Note that I am not saying utility moves, but specifically non-damaging status moves (e.g. entry hazards like Spikes, status-based hazard removal like Defog, and non-damaging recovery like Recover).

We are already facing some pretty severe 4MSS due to the Song taking up one slot. I think the main issue with status moves here is that barring a couple of exceptions, they are all pretty much dead weight as soon as we transform into the cleaner role, and our cleaning abilities aren't great if we are trying to clean with exclusively two moves. I also think that adding status moves makes 36 more self-sufficient, which is what we are trying to avoid. Having no status moves is a good way to make 36 functional in both of its roles while making it reliant on its teammates for stuff like entry hazards.

Therefore, I think we should be aiming to include damaging utility moves to fulfill the wall / tank role and help us set the stage while still being a functional cleaner. We already are running with this theme somewhat with Inferno and the Song (damage-dealing moves that act to spread status and "boost" our stats, respectively), and I think we should lean more into it to maximize the effectiveness of both.

This is why I like moves like Knock Off, Rapid Spin, Mortal Spin, Ice Spinner, U-turn, Volt Switch, and even (radically) Stone Axe/Ceaseless Edge, all of which provide utility while still not being complete dead weight as soon as we transform.

Edit: We aren't discussing items per se here but four attacks also enables Assault Vest, which helps both formes, especially the wall.

 

[Spammernoob]

Tentative 24hr (probably a little less) warning before shifting focus a little. Some thoughts for now:

Blizzard is a universal move for Ice-types, I plan on leaving it as required. While there are indeed possible routes for this mon that don’t include Blizzard, the mere existence of those routes is not enough to justify them; there should be a high bar for excluding a universal move, and I don’t believe that bar has been met. Not really sure what we’re doing here if we make a No Guard Ice-type and then deny it Blizzard.

Zap Cannon, this one’s weird. I reject the argument that this move is inherently broken or impossible to balance. There is no such thing as “inherently broken” when we don’t even know what our stats will be yet. With an appropriate BSR penalty, this move will be fine. With that said, there are certainly other reasons this move might not be good for us. I’m not a huge fan of it myself. But still—it’s just as concept-relevant on paper as Inferno is, it’s possible to balance, and Zap/Blizzard/Fire Blast is a pretty coherent moveset. I believe Zap Cannon is a valid route, but I’m not convinced it is a desirable route. So, the question of whether or not it’s included on the DM list seems to me less about the move itself and more about the philosophical criteria you’re using to determine what counts as a Defining Move and what doesn’t. Is simply having a valid design space enough for a move to be included on the DM list? Should we be agnostic during this stage about whether a move is a desirable or undesirable option, leaving that judgment up to voters during Stats? (For the record, if Zap Cannon does land on the DM list, it would be in the “Choose At Least One” category alongside Inferno.)

I’d also like to see a little more discussion on the random utility moves that can help “set the stage” for the cleaner. Stuff like hazards, status, Taunt, whatever else, specifically anything that impacts calcs or would come with a BSR penalty.

OK after thinking about it. I can kinda see a route with Zap Cannon + average speed (~110 range) for cleaner form, where the para speed drop allows it to outspeed key threats to clean. This is definitely wishful thinking in actual game, but there are ways it could play out well and is actually pretty interesting, similar to how Serperior set up its own sweeps by forcing Glare onto Torn-T in pastgens. I'm pretty good with moving Inferno and Zap Cannon together in “Choose At Least One". That being said, I hate paralysis so I hope it doesn't win...

 

[quziel]

Very fine with having Inferno mutually exclusive with Zap Cannon and having folks choose one of the two to base their spread around. Of course also having any Zap Cannon routes also having a hefty BSR penalty.

I feel like we broadly have three routes set out in front of us in that case:

Inferno / Blizzard / Thunder / Relic Song as our "goldenrod department store special v1" whereby your utility comes from inflicting Burn on anything burnable, fishing for Para on Fire types, and utilizing the raw offensive prowess of your latter forme to try to clean afterwards.

Inferno / Freeze Dry / Relic Song / Utility as a slower, more grindy style, whereby the utility move specifically tries to cut the longevity of our usual answers. Utility here is the following imo:

Encore / Taunt / Spite to force Fires into recovery loops, or deny them (Synergy with 36p, incentivizes 36-a to be fast and weak)
Knock Off to cut Fires off of their boots addiction (Synergy with 36a)
Poison Status (Poison Gas, Poison Powder, Toxic) to wear them down (synergy with 36a)
Magnet Rise to let you actually beat Grounds (synergy with 36a, incentivizes 36a to be faster than Gliscor)
Substitute is fairly obvious, though probably is also worse than just running Blizzard last

Fire Blast / Blizzard / Zap Cannon / Relic Song as our "goldenrod department store special v2", where the explicit focus is on overwhelming Fires using our guaranteed Paralysis, and our dedicated answers become pokemon such as Shox and Garganacl which we just can't really touch. Implies a slower 36p compared to other routes.

There's also the actually optimal route of giving Dynamic Punch, Triple Axel, and coverage for Waters and deciding to hax through all our answers using the power of Confusion.

I suppose that makes the Required/Optional list the following:

Required: Fire Blast, Blizzard, Freeze Dry, Relic Song

Optional Choose One: Inferno, Zap Cannon

Optional: Thunder, Encore, Knock Off, Poison Gas, Knock Off, Toxic, Magnet Rise, Taunt

 

[a fairy]

Little short and directionless on this, but I worry that these focuses on 100+ BP inaccurate moves run the risk of overwhelming our defensive side with a focus on the sweeper form. I'm not saying that it can't make use of Blizzard or Inferno/Zap Cannon (which, btw, Zap Cannon way more in line IMO with our concept than Inferno but also way more infuriating) as a defensive option, but when we're talking about stuff that a defensive 'mon needs and limited slots to do it, I'm worried that we're going to have an opposite Meloetta, something that desperately wants to switch out of its base form ASAP (to gain access to a more offensive toolset, whatever that means re: IVs, Type, etc) and never wants to spend much time in its defensive form.

If this 'mon has Relic Song's clone, Ice STAB, a "setup move" (see Inferno/Zap Cannon), that's three moves intended to get it to its cleaner state and then sweep. Sure, the setup move ostensibly is supposed to be the defensive forme's move of choice, but are we actually saying that the two popular options are genuine defensive utility options? They are something a defensive 'mon is using offensively to prepare for later, but now we have a defensive 'mon that has one slot to actually fit its role as a defensive role. Presumably that's some form of healing, it's hard to imagine a defensive 'mon without healing options, but maybe not? I saw pushback against healing at all earlier.

What is our 'mon doing in a defensive form right now? Just setting up for itself for later? Do teams in Gen 9 have space for a 'mon that has a defensive profile but can't realistically contribute to the defensive backbone of a team for its teammates? If I'm loading up a 'mon with those 3 moves and one filler, be it coverage or even recovery, I'm not sure I can see it being a defensive backbone piece as much as it's just its own little thing waiting for an opportunity - something more similar to, say, Kommo-O than Clefable. I dunno.

 

[vishy fishy]

I know I’m bad at expressing opinions but here are mine:
Is the transforming move relic song or a clone? If it’s a clone, can’t it be a type other than normal. If so, what if it was an ice move?
Chilling melody?
Also I think we should give this thing flash cannon, just so it has a steel stab for base even though it won’t use it, just makes sense.

 

[Brigtel]

I’d also like to see a little more discussion on the random utility moves that can help “set the stage” for the cleaner. Stuff like hazards, status, Taunt, whatever else, specifically anything that impacts calcs or would come with a BSR penalty.

Many people above have already mentioned a lot of utility moves that would work well at accomplishing our role, with Knock Off especially allowing CAP 36 to make permanent progress against its checks, notably fire types, to prepare for a clean later on using the Pirouette form, and it accomplishes this without resorting to additional offensive coverage like a ground or water move.

I am also a big fan of Taunt and how it can prevent recovery from usual checks, allowing us to wear them down slowly again in preparation for cleaning, as well as many of the offensive utility moves brought up by sunny004.

I'd also like to add another suggestion to that list, Psychic Noise, as it is essentially a pseudo taunt that will work just as well in trying to deny recovery (though it is unsafe against status, which might be a problem depending on who exactly we want to deny recovery on). The advantage is that it actually deals some small amount of damage, half of our main STAB, making it slightly easier to click on the switch and more rewarding to use on a trade or prediction against a defensive pokemon.

Part of me does worry that this could make the defensive form simply too efficient at shutting down mons that are supposed to be checks and counters (see the list) as opposed to how much riskier taunt is, but I believe it fulfills question 3 being particularly effective at setting the stage for a later clean, and should be Optional.

 

[EeveeWillEatYou]

I think the main thing to consider is whether Inferno is a powerful spammable, essentially default move - or a powerful mix of utility and damage but not as powerful. If. We decide to go for giving CAP36 multiple additional strong but low accuracy moves beyond inferno, such as blizzard or thunder) it will not make CAP36s damage higher, as the powerful moves will be made up for in the stats department. Should we decide not to give CAP36 any more such moves, and instead make it rely on less powerful equivalent moves such as thunderbolt and ice beam the effective damage of them will change by very little (One difference is that thunder has a 30% rather than 10% para chance, which combined with the inherent luck of para is somewhat uncomfortably RNG fishy). In practice the choice of defining moves will not as much effect the damage output of the moves themselves, but rather the damage output of Inferno, as lowered powered moves will lead to a higher SPA stat and therefore more inferno damage. And vice versa for higher power moves.

IMO This is the main consideration for picking if we should have additional high power low accuracy moves.

Personally I am inclined to believe that not having any additional strong moves might be for the best.
Firstly this really puts Inferno in center stage has an incredibly spam-able move, since you are sacrificing far less potential damage by not clicking for example blizzard. I think this is a positive, both in giving CAP36 an intersting and unique identity, but also by doubling down on the role compression of Inferno - which was the entire reason for the choice of No Guard. By making Inferno more spamable it also leaves more room in the moveset for support moves, which might otherwise be difficult if it becomes overreliant on additional damage moves to be a big threat.
Secondly it gives more room for moves such as freeze-dry or perhaps psychic noise which might struggle to find a place when competing with blizzard. Once again giving CAP36 an incredibly distinct offensive identity. Quite importantly lower base SPA will also most likely lower the effective damage of our Relic Song move, making it slightly more costly to transform, which we probably don’t want.
Finally, and perhaps more specifically I really hate thunder as a spamable move, and turns a mon that is very anti-rng into having a super RNG spreading move being part of its core moveset. Ofc this can be circumvented by just not giving CAP36 Thunder, but that would sacrifice the ideas of electric coverage being thrown around.

All of my points on why we should go for a lower bp move pool are however somewhat subjective in the direction of CAP36, but I urge all of you to consider the practical effects of giving CAP36 additional high power-low accuracy moves.

 

[spoo]

Alright, 24 hours turned into 48 but time to push stuff along:

After mulling it over for a while and getting the rest of the TLT's opinion, Zap Cannon will be left off the Defining Moves list. At some point –– whether now or when we vote on stats –– we will need to decide whether Zap Cannon is something we want to pursue. And given how wildly unpopular it seems to be, I don't believe that it's necessary to punt the decision further down the road. I have an incredibly hard time ever seeing a universe where this move makes it onto our final movepool given the negative sentiment surrounding it, so I feel as though including it as a Defining Move would only introduce unwanted noise during the Stats stage. I think Zap Cannon is a picture-perfect Defining Moves candidate in many ways, representing the exact kind of move that this stage exists to account for, but it's just far too unpopular for me to believe it has a chance. Leaving it off the list should help streamline the Stats stage and make the decision regarding CAP Song's 10% effect chance a little easier.

With that out of the way, here's the draft for our current Defining Moves list:

​

Required: Inferno, CAP Song, Universal Moves (listed here)​

Optional: Thunder, Knock Off, Taunt, Encore​

This is pretty sparse. I debated excluding Taunt and Encore since I don't really believe that they will affect the Stats stage, but explicitly listing them can help provide context for spreads that opt for neither Thunder or Knock Off.

50% Recovery will be denied for reasons elaborated by snake, RADU, and others in this thread.

Some moves that were brought up that I'd like more discussion on: Hazards + Removal, Toxic/Poison Gas, Volt Switch, Psychic Noise

I didn't ask explicitly about Freeze Dry, but I understand that it's a bit hard to not bring up when discussing how other options like Knock Off might fit on a full moveset. So, now I'll ask directly: Freeze Dry –– required or optional?

Lastly, let's kick off the discussion for CAP Song's 10% secondary chance. The effect will be an existing secondary effect, AKA no stuff like 10% chance to clear hazards, but any effect that has a % chance in front of it is fair game. Please try to be reasonable and aim to strike a balance between "you win on the spot if it procs" and "this is useless in 99% of games."

 

[sunny004]

Some moves that were brought up that I'd like more discussion on: Hazards + Removal, Toxic/Poison Gas, Volt Switch, Psychic Noise

I didn't ask explicitly about Freeze Dry, but I understand that it's a bit hard to not bring up when discussing how other options like Knock Off might fit on a full moveset. So, now I'll ask directly: Freeze Dry –– required or optional?

Lastly, let's kick off the discussion for CAP Song's 10% secondary chance. The effect will be an existing secondary effect, AKA no stuff like 10% chance to clear hazards, but any effect that has a % chance in front of it is fair game. Please try to be reasonable and aim to strike a balance between "you win on the spot if it procs" and "this is useless in 99% of games."

In keeping with my prior post, I like Volt Switch and can see the merits of Psychic Noise. I dislike all of the other moves because of the aforementioned dead(er) weight once Song is used

I'm admittedly unfamiliar with some of the wider-reaching implications of the required / optional move debate, but given my limited knowledge I think Freeze-Dry should be optional. It definitely is a useful coverage option to have (and it should be available) but I think it should be a choice between running Blizzard over Freeze-Dry, and by extension, Freeze-Dry over any option in the last moveslot.

As to the 10% Secondary Chance, I think the best balance between winning on the spot and uselessness is something that would force a switch from an otherwise-viable switch-in to 36's cleaner forme.

The way I envision a balanced 10% would be as follows:

• 36 is sent out into a Pokemon that it is good against
• Said Pokemon switches out into an ally that is good against 36 (esp. in its cleaner forme)
• On the same turn, 36 uses Song to transform. If the 10% procs, the ally that was just switched in is now in an unfavorable position.

This mindset allows the 10% chance to really benefit 36 when it procs but limits its effectiveness to prevent the "win on the spot" scenario. We should still allow the opponent some counterplay via switching (to a likely suboptimal Pokemon though thanks to the proc), and therefore I think we should avoid proc effects that boost 36's stats (esp. offenses).

Some ideas that I had:
Special Defense (1 or 2x) drop
Speed (likely 1x) drop
Confusion (Also helps w/ status spreading in a way)
Non-Burn status?

One last point worth noting is that the actual Song's effect is fairly strong (sleep) to compensate for the low proc chance, so maybe we should be ok with a slightly more powerful proc effect.

 

[dex]

I think that the 10% effect on Song is relatively meaningless as long as it isn't a) sleep or b) freeze. I think I'd actually prefer for it to be as unimpactful as possible, since 10% chance effects suck to lose to, so I think Burn, which CAP 36 already spreads, is actually the best approach. Best not to overthink the effect, it isn't super important, but spending power budget, as little as it may be, on a 10% effect would be a poor choice.

 

[Dusk Mage Necrozma]

I think that the 10% effect on Song is relatively meaningless as long as it isn't a) sleep or b) freeze. I think I'd actually prefer for it to be as unimpactful as possible, since 10% chance effects suck to lose to, so I think Burn, which CAP 36 already spreads, is actually the best approach. Best not to overthink the effect, it isn't super important, but spending power budget, as little as it may be, on a 10% effect would be a poor choice.

The actual least impactful secondary effect would be a Defense drop but that's pretty weird thematically

 

[Da Pizza Man]

Gonna support making our secondary effect burn here. Our secondary effect, for all intents and purposes, is competitively meaningless in almost all situations (10% is actually quite low for triggering a secondary effect, and we are not going to be clicking it anywhere near enough to be actively fishing for it). In this situation, we might as well just go with the option that limits variance in games (For the record, I don't think variance in of itself is a bad thing. But, I do think that any variance that adds very little if any mechanical depth should be limited, as it doesn't contribute anything meaningfully positive to the game and just serves to cause frustration when it happens). Also as a bit of a more minor point, it's a lot more faithful to the design of Relic Song than pretty much anything else we can do apart from obviously Sleep (Which I think the fact that we are even having this conversation shows that picking that would be undesirable).

 

[Ayecrusher King]

Some moves that were brought up that I'd like more discussion on: Hazards + Removal, Toxic/Poison Gas, Volt Switch, Psychic Noise

Since Inferno's now officially required, Toxic/Poison Gas should be excluded. Inferno's niche of burning everything should be kept on focus, any other status ailments should be kept away. Psychic Noise I feel like might fall into 4Mss, but it's otherwise pro-concept that I think it could be an optional move.

I didn't ask explicitly about Freeze Dry, but I understand that it's a bit hard to not bring up when discussing how other options like Knock Off might fit on a full moveset. So, now I'll ask directly: Freeze Dry –– required or optional?

As much as I want this to be required, Freeze-Dry's worth is equal to Thunder, and a lesser case to Knock Off. Hitting bulky waters is a valuable skill, but I'm fairly certainly most people just prefer the more immediate power boost from Blizzard. As such, Optional is where it likely ends up.

Lastly, let's kick off the discussion for CAP Song's 10% secondary chance. The effect will be an existing secondary effect, AKA no stuff like 10% chance to clear hazards, but any effect that has a % chance in front of it is fair game. Please try to be reasonable and aim to strike a balance between "you win on the spot if it procs" and "this is useless in 99% of games."

I'm gonna disagree in making our 10% burn since Inferno already made it onto the required moves; it's very likely that we've already hit an opponent with it, so making our Relic Clone burn is redundant. And a redundancy shouldn't be something we push for unless it's competitively broken or required by the concept. Plus, with all the move compressions that have been pushed around, what's spending a little more?
So, I'm gonna play a little devil's advocate here. If we're looking at existing additional effects, there are a couple unique options we can do.
For extremely boring measures, we can go the Ancient Power 'boost our five stats' route, but I hear spoo doesn't want this option, so alternatively, we can go the other way - 10% chance to lower all five of our target(s?) stats.
For more interesting measures, let's first discuss a couple moves that Bulbapedia says are explicitly enumerated as being additional effects:

• Ceaseless Edge/Stone Axe: Sets a hazard
• Eerie Spell: Chips off 3 pp of the target's last move.
• Anchor Shot/Spirit Shackle: Target can no longer flee.
• Sparkling Aria: Cures a status condition if the target has it
• Secret Power: Changes depending on the environment: the default is paralysis, but in other conditions it can cause other status conditions or lower a stat.

But alright, says we want something a bit more 'traditional'. These options, if they do happen, aren't exactly win-con, but they could be useful:

• Salt Cure: Look, if this procs, bulky waters can say goodbye. Of course, we could change what types it is super-effective against, but that'll drag on the conversation.
• Syrup Bomb: This is a slightly more effective lasting take on stat drops, lowering one stat for three turns if the target keeps staying on the field.
• Throat Chop: Blocks sound moves. Okay, this targets Chugg, but...

I also want to address something a bit niche: namely, changing our Relic Clone from a sound-based move to a different move usage type. The only benefit being a sound move has is going through Substitute, which there are hardly any users in CAP (Serperior, Kyurem, Hydreigon, Walking Wake, Enamourus. Hey, they're mostly vulnerable to our Ice-STAB anyway). In either case, sound moves also get blocked by Soundproof (and halved by Punk Rock, but we're not using it for damage per se), so could we change it to something else?

 

[Brown4Sides]

Our signature move's secondary effect should raise our Sp. Attack by 1, IMO. No matter what, our secondary effect isn't going to come up that much since it's only a 10% chance on a move we're not going to click that many times. That being said, making it burn when we already spread burns with Inferno feels doesn't totally sit right with me. I think the secondary effect shouldn't be completely useless, we have the opportunity to not make it completely useless, we might as well take it. Giving us a Sp. Attack boost incentivizes transformation, as the cleaner form would appreciate it, but it wouldn't be broken due to it only being a 10% chance.

EDIT: Reading over other posts and I'm kinda starting to walk back on this opinion, +1 Defense or -1 Sp. Defense like quziel mentioned seem like fair options. Still not a fan of burn though. As for other secondary effects mentioned, I am against freeze since like I said in an earlier post one status is enough, and an accuracy boost is completely useless since our ability is No Guard, which I guess if you're in the camp of wanting an unimpactful secondary effect would be good but I don't like it personally.

 

[Guingil]

I didn't ask explicitly about Freeze Dry, but I understand that it's a bit hard to not bring up when discussing how other options like Knock Off might fit on a full moveset. So, now I'll ask directly: Freeze Dry –– required or optional?​

Gotta make the case for putting it in the "Choose One" in Required with Thunder.

I don't think Freeze Dry competes with the universal Ice moves (Blizzard, no reason to consider Ice Beam when we have No Guard). While Blizzard has more power, realistically, I imagine we are using our Ice STAB to only deal with things Inferno can't deal with, given its 100 BP. This means Fires, Waters, Rocks (Garganacl, specifically), and Dragons.

Fires don't care about either, and if we want to make progress against them, that is a job for our fourth moveslot. Bulky waters (Argh, Cres, Alo) or offensive mons like Ogerpon-W and Walking Wake will be the main things that the uniqueness of Freeze-Dry addresses. Garganacl, being immune to status and being unable to be hit supereffectively, seems like a proper check to us that even Blizzard struggles to break through. Stratagem is weak enough that our interaction probably depends on our Speed Tier. So this leaves us with the Dragons as the main targets.

Scrolling down until the B- ranks in the Viability rankings, we find Dragapult, Chuggalong, Dragonite, Hydrapple, Raging Bolt, and Latias. Two of these are 4x weak, and Dragapult or Chuggalong aren't particularly known for their bulk. So even with Freeze Dry, it might be possible for our cleaner to come out on top in these matchups with a reasonably powerful SpA. Our interactions with Latias or Raging Bolt do meaningfully change with Freeze Dry vs Blizzard, but is that enough justification to always slot in Blizzard? We could always run Freeze Dry AND Blizzard on the same moveset like Kyurem at the cost of being able to do nothing against our Fire-type checks.

So I don't think making our key Ice calculations with Freeze Dry makes the overpowered Blizzard too much of a problem. Granted, we get a much stronger Inferno which might be an issue. I also see the case for Inferno's low PP making Blizzard's BP still necessary. But on the flipside, keeping Freeze Dry optional and making our key calculations with Blizzard makes FD very low-powered, verging on unviable (someone can correct me if this is inaccurate).

Why I think Thunder should be mutually exclusive is, if we do make our key calculations with Freeze Dry and have Thunder, we might just drop Freeze Dry for the Inferno/Blizzard/Thunder trifecta. This build, I think, can afford a lower power level given that these are high BP moves, but this would come at a cost of making Freeze Dry unviable.

​

Some moves that were brought up that I'd like more discussion on: Hazards + Removal, Toxic/Poison Gas, Volt Switch, Psychic Noise

I think we don't have the survivability or can afford enough HP loss to set up Hazards reliably enough in the course of a game. Similarly, for removal, our team can't depend on 36 coming in to remove stuff when it's already so concerned about living to make it to the cleaning stage, so IDK if it is worth it.

Toxic/Poison gas seems okay if we go with Freeze Dry as quziel said, so I think optional is a good place for them. Toxic might be a bit too strong, though.

Volt Switch and Psychic Noise are useful, but not overwhelming enough so we can slot those in optional as well. I do see the case for both, but don't think they explicitly move our goals forward as much as Thunder/Knock Off or even Poison status.

Lastly, let's kick off the discussion for CAP Song's 10% secondary chance. The effect will be an existing secondary effect, AKA no stuff like 10% chance to clear hazards, but any effect that has a % chance in front of it is fair game. Please try to be reasonable and aim to strike a balance between "you win on the spot if it procs" and "this is useless in 99% of games."

I agree that we should make it a useless effect like Burn. Anything useful like 10% chance of speed increase, damage increase in some way (10% Fickle Beam lol), or defense increase, and we end up flipping our (what I assume will be) razor-thin cleaner matchups.

Oh but I do think it should not be sound-based. We want to break the rare Substitute we encounter to clean up the opposing mon thereafter with our stronger offensive stats, rather than spend an extra turn breaking it after.

 

[Shock3600]

Some moves that were brought up that I'd like more discussion on: Hazards + Removal, Toxic/Poison Gas, Volt Switch, Psychic Noise

I think psychic noise is the most worth considering. It plays a similar role to knock off and taunt, being a tool that our base form can use to help wear down checks for our sweeper form but with the plus of being usable in the sweeper form as well for fire types. It requires more “work” than knock off does to wear down checks but is arguably better against garg and gives us a more direct tool to hit resists, being stronger than resisted inferno and freeze dry, as well as being better at wearing down passive checks (both because it’s a lot easier to depend on just rocks for fire types than multiple layers of spikes to wear down far Pokémon, and the fact that the teams fat Pokémon fit on may have a sticky hold user to negate knock).

 

[cat111ca]

I'm not that good and I'm disconnected from the conversation here so I'll just say some moves

1. Inferno everyone agrees on this, no need to explain
2. as both a utility and late game sweeper it should get Volt switch, because Inferno is a special move I think the final pokemon will be a special attacker. It needs a way to enter and exit, in & out & in & out & in & ou
3. Blizzard, ice beam & Freeze dry are basic special ice stab
4. As a steel type special sweeper I think the relic song clone should be steel type. I also thought of and unique idea, the move is gonna be a low bp (50~) special steel move that transforms CAP 36 to the other form permanently (even after switching) and sets up toxic spikes. think about it! some people really want a way to poison, some want hazards, and there's the problem that other then relic song you only have 3 move, this fixes everything!
5. I don't know, prolly didn't add anything to the conversation.

 

[SHSP]

So, I'm gonna play a little devil's advocate here. If we're looking at existing additional effects, there are a couple unique options we can do.
For extremely boring measures, we can go the Ancient Power 'boost our five stats' route, but I hear spoo doesn't want this option, so alternatively, we can go the other way - 10% chance to lower all five of our target(s?) stats.
For more interesting measures, let's first discuss a couple moves that Bulbapedia says are explicitly enumerated as being additional effects:

• Ceaseless Edge/Stone Axe: Sets a hazard
• Eerie Spell: Chips off 3 pp of the target's last move.
• Anchor Shot/Spirit Shackle: Target can no longer flee.
• Sparkling Aria: Cures a status condition if the target has it
• Secret Power: Changes depending on the environment: the default is paralysis, but in other conditions it can cause other status conditions or lower a stat.

But alright, says we want something a bit more 'traditional'. These options aren't exactly win-con, but they could be useful:

• Salt Cure: Look, if this procs, bulky waters can say goodbye. Of course, we could change what types it is super-effective against, but that'll drag on the conversation.
• Syrup Bomb: This is a slightly more effective lasting take on stat drops, lowering one stat for three turns if the target keeps staying on the field.
• Throat Chop: Blocks sound moves. Okay, this targets Chugg, but...

I also thought of and unique idea, the move is gonna be a low bp (50~) special steel move that transforms CAP 36 to the other form permanently (even after switching) and sets up toxic spikes. think about it! some people really want a way to poison, some want hazards, and there's the problem that other then relic song you only have 3 move, this fixes everything!

TL-posting to remind everyone that our secondary effect on CAP Song is going to be an already existing percentage chance, as mentioned multiple times by myself in the process and by Spoo just recently in this thread.

Our Relic Song equivalent is going to be the same base power as Relic Song, and function similarly: transforms CAP 36 into its next form, and has a 10% chance to do some sort of secondary effect. That secondary effect does not have to be Relic Song's sleep, but it does have to be something that exists and is chance-based already, such as another status, flinching, or a stat drop. We'll be able to change its typing, and potentially make it physical instead of special, but I expect that change would need a very good reason.

The effect will be an existing secondary effect, AKA no stuff like 10% chance to clear hazards, but any effect that has a % chance in front of it is fair game

To answer Spoo's questions and post more normally, I'm in favor of Freeze Dry going to optional. I don't think its something that should be mandatory, but it absolutely should fit into our defining move list in some form to consider its more unique calcs in Stats. I could see it going to "choose at least one" with Thunder as guingil suggested earlier, but Optional to me feels cleaner.

I don't have strong feelings about any of the other moves here. Hazard setting seems like a more fitting effect than removal, and I'm always gonna be a fan of adding Psychic Noise just off of loving that move and the utility it can provide, but otherwise I'm pretty neutral. I don't 100% see the vision with Volt personally, but maybe I'm just missing something there.

I feel like making Relic's 10% chance a little more impactful than burning something that is likely already burnt isn't too too much to ask for. I don't know if I'd ever consider freeze, as that seems a bit too impactful, but there's definitely a happy medium between "can win the game off a 10% freeze" and "functionally doesn't have a secondary effect." Stat buffs might be a bit too far as well- the confusion idea someone came up with earlier on is intriguing, perhaps?

 

[Blue glass]

Freeze-dry should be optional and the 10% effect for CAP Song should be confusion or flinch, or if you really want to make it useless but not boring like a 10% burn, make it a +1 accuracy.

 

[quziel]

Freeze Dry is either a centerpiece of your set or outclassed by Thunder. This effectively means its required because its either very relevant to the calcs you're running, or you've chosen a move that upstages it.

10% chance realistically wants to be something that's both impactful and fair. Offensive stat increases thus make little sense cause they'll end up feeling incredibly unfair to face when they get the +1 SpA or +1 Speed they need to win. Freeze is weirdly fair because Inferno thaws, and is quite thematic. A defense raise is impactful, letting our secondary forme not die to Kingambit (potentially), is not gamebreaking because it shuts down a single forme of revenge killing and not all, and all that jazz. Spdef Drop is probably the most consistent with existing moves, has an impact, and lets us style on fires sometimes, its also good.

Edit: Somehow inferno doesn't thaw lol

double edit: I was told incorrect information

 

[Spammernoob]

Edit: Somehow inferno doesn't thaw lol

All Fire-type attacks will thaw the target. Inferno doesn't thaw the user, but that is not very relevant.

 

[RADU]

Freeze Dry –– required or optional?

Pick one between Thunder and Freeze-Dry.
Thunder as a move outclasses Freeze-Dry and will always see use over it. On the other hand, if we do not have access to Thunder, Freeze-Dry is most likely gonna be required over it.
There is a universe where we don't get Thunder nor Freeze-Dry and opt instead for something like Earth Power or Hydro Pump, making Water-types the actual counters to CAP 36, so for this reason I'd like to say Freeze-Dry should be optional.

Lastly, let's kick off the discussion for CAP Song's 10% secondary chance. The effect will be an existing secondary effect, AKA no stuff like 10% chance to clear hazards, but any effect that has a % chance in front of it is fair game. Please try to be reasonable and aim to strike a balance between "you win on the spot if it procs" and "this is useless in 99% of games."

For something like this, it makes the most sense to me for the move to be unique and flavor-based. Relic Song has a 10% chance to sleep, which is only shared by Wicked Torque (and Secret Power sometimes). While I think 10% to burn is the "safe" route, rarely consequential effect on fire-type move, I just really find it quite boring. I think it would be more unique for the move to have a 10% chance to freeze. The move is supposed to turn the user into an Ice-type, so it makes little sense for a fire type move that can burn to do that, and it could make it difficult to turn it into a fitting concept. Instead, a 10% chance to freeze makes it much easier to create a fire-type move that thematically turns the user into an ice-type. It would also be justified by the existence of Ice Burn, Ice-type move with a 30% chance to burn.

Other options like stat drops, flinches and what-have-you seem completely unfitting thematically to the cap, and it feels like they are brought upon by a fear to make the secondary effect actually consequential, as if wishing that it wasn't there to begin with. I believe it is our duty to go all the way with the concept, and while obviously broken effects like +1 SpA or omniboosts should definitely be avoided, 10% chance to freeze sits right on the borderline of consequential but not game-winning.

 

[snake]

I think we can pick something more impactful and interesting than a burn chance, but willingly adding a move with a 10% chance to freeze, as thematic as it would be, doesn’t seem very responsible. I think there are other options that are better.

While a +1 special attack raise is a little too impactful for a 10% chance to swing a game, I think a special defense drop on the target is more manageable. +1 defense would be very helpful to survive against priority from something like Kingambit. +1 special defense would less impactful but still could be situational useful.

If we don’t like stat boosts or drops, flinch or confusion seem perfectly serviceable as well.

 

[Brigtel]

Lastly, let's kick off the discussion for CAP Song's 10% secondary chance. The effect will be an existing secondary effect, AKA no stuff like 10% chance to clear hazards, but any effect that has a % chance in front of it is fair game. Please try to be reasonable and aim to strike a balance between "you win on the spot if it procs" and "this is useless in 99% of games."

High impact status like freeze or sleep feels like something we really shouldn't encourage, and in general a 10% proc chance shouldn't have a big impact, it is unnecessary and harmful. If we want a reaonsable middleground for something that actually has impact sometimes but is mostly just a nice bonus a not a matchup-flipping proc, dropping the target's attack or special attack seems useful. When transforming against a target we expect to trade with, it can make that trade more comfortablr. Otherwise a special defense drop or a defense raise, as mentioned by others, looks pretty fair too.

 

[cat111ca]

TL-posting to remind everyone that our secondary effect on CAP Song is going to be an already existing percentage chance, as mentioned multiple times by myself in the process and by Spoo just recently in this thread.

But why? Genuinely this just means that Cap 36 will have one nearly useless move that is only used to transform it. it'll be better if it was a utility move as well, wouldn't it?