I would like to say i really like the idea of salt cure being on this thing,so we at least have something meaningful to do vs equilibra before we ultimately switch out,personally i also like the idea of matcha gotcha too,since I personally think its more spammable then apple acid(due to the burn chance)
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CAP 38 - Part 6 - Defining Moves
- Thread starter Spammernoob
- Start date
- Status
I think we're kinda losing the plot with the signature move spam. None of them suggested in the thread feel like Eternatus unless you really squint. I know CAP is about pushing to create the mon you personally want out of the valid routes but it just seems like every one of these suggestions are pushing the boundary of what is valid or needed, without the goal of getting closer to what was laid out in the concept assessment. Id take knock off with the purpose of "completing" the 2A set over any of the signatures, which do nothing for the 3A or conditional setup routes either
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I usually agree with pip, but here I think Apple Acid does a good amount for us.
Apple Acid is not without its downsides. The main ones I see are:
I have a great solution for these issues, but it involves polljumping, so I won't get into it here...
That being said, Apple Acid would probably incur a high BSR penalty. The way I see it is that part of Eternatus' identity is its ability to click Dynamax Cannon with relative impunity, and given that we have forgone options to fulfill this in both Typing and Ability, not including Apple Acid would put the entire burden on stats (which we would probably need a lot of). This penalty shouldn't be for Sweepiness though; lower than 110-115 SpA is probably dire for committing to offense. Primarily nerfing bulk for Apple Acid would be ideal I think, so offensive sets can't spam it as freely (This is a bit of a Stat Limits preview).
- For Offensive sets: Apple Acid provides a spammable STAB option. This heavily eases prediction (LO mon that relies heavily on prediction might be more trouble than its worth).
- For Offensive sets: LO Eternatus aims to pick up 2HKOs against common neutral mons with Dynamax Cannon. Apple Acid averaged over 2 turns is 100bp, which is the ideal number for ratios with Secondary STAB and coverage.
- For Defensive sets: Apple Acid's ramping damage emulates Toxic's ramping damage. I don't really see a viable alternative (Acid Spray is cope), unless you cope that Toxic will actually land on anything relevant for CAP38 (probably as likely as Obliteryx getting a Beak Blast burn).
Apple Acid is not without its downsides. The main ones I see are:
- Low immediate damage makes Meteor Beam sets difficult to secure OHKOs.
- Offensive sets can potentially wallbreak by stacking a large amount of SpD debuffs (a bit less likely with LO?).
- Artists without apples in their design suffer.
I have a great solution for these issues, but it involves polljumping, so I won't get into it here...
That being said, Apple Acid would probably incur a high BSR penalty. The way I see it is that part of Eternatus' identity is its ability to click Dynamax Cannon with relative impunity, and given that we have forgone options to fulfill this in both Typing and Ability, not including Apple Acid would put the entire burden on stats (which we would probably need a lot of). This penalty shouldn't be for Sweepiness though; lower than 110-115 SpA is probably dire for committing to offense. Primarily nerfing bulk for Apple Acid would be ideal I think, so offensive sets can't spam it as freely (This is a bit of a Stat Limits preview).
Spammer got a gist of my anti-knock arguments but I felt like elaborating further on some of these because I'm not a fan of this sudden push for the move for the supposed sake of the defensive set. Besides the fact that it just feeds into this addiction of the playerbase to try and stuff item removal on every concept that we can it just doesn't achieve the supposed goal of helping the defensive sets.
While Eternatus' does use toxic in Ubers to wear down the opponent in passing turns it is not the reason it actually uses the move. Eternatus' uses it force out cm was so that it can continue to operate without interruption. Knock off very much does not do that, as every mon that comes in on us stays on with their item removed, particularly Corviknight and Glowing. Knocking them still means we are forced to switch out, which very much does not fit our current concept.
I am also opposed to the other status spreading moves, especially paralysis. It feels like a big doomer option about not being able to beat some of our established counters and thus overshooting the mark to try and deal with them, but will instead result in making a pretty obnoxious mon.
Lets say we get wisp or para: assuming we also get everything that is required we know get a mon that is jsut the metagame's most obnoxious status spreader besides creseidon. Except, unlike creseidon, we do comfortably beat a lot of the best status absorbers in the game like Garganacl and Hatterene, which means that besides the pheal mons we are extremely hard for the entire meta to switch into. All except one mon in particular: Ourselves. I feel like making a multiple status spreader mon that also happens to be an extraordinary status absorber is just a recipe for disaster.
The only utility option I can really support of the ones that aren't semi-required is Mortal Spin, as its effect is pretty simple and not that intrusive. I can support Apple Acid as I think it serves all sets well as a spammable stab, and I think concerns about its powerlevel can be addresed with hefty BSR penalties. Salt Cure should not even be close to being entertained as an option if the objective is to only boost defensive sets.
While Eternatus' does use toxic in Ubers to wear down the opponent in passing turns it is not the reason it actually uses the move. Eternatus' uses it force out cm was so that it can continue to operate without interruption. Knock off very much does not do that, as every mon that comes in on us stays on with their item removed, particularly Corviknight and Glowing. Knocking them still means we are forced to switch out, which very much does not fit our current concept.
I am also opposed to the other status spreading moves, especially paralysis. It feels like a big doomer option about not being able to beat some of our established counters and thus overshooting the mark to try and deal with them, but will instead result in making a pretty obnoxious mon.
Lets say we get wisp or para: assuming we also get everything that is required we know get a mon that is jsut the metagame's most obnoxious status spreader besides creseidon. Except, unlike creseidon, we do comfortably beat a lot of the best status absorbers in the game like Garganacl and Hatterene, which means that besides the pheal mons we are extremely hard for the entire meta to switch into. All except one mon in particular: Ourselves. I feel like making a multiple status spreader mon that also happens to be an extraordinary status absorber is just a recipe for disaster.
The only utility option I can really support of the ones that aren't semi-required is Mortal Spin, as its effect is pretty simple and not that intrusive. I can support Apple Acid as I think it serves all sets well as a spammable stab, and I think concerns about its powerlevel can be addresed with hefty BSR penalties. Salt Cure should not even be close to being entertained as an option if the objective is to only boost defensive sets.
I don't think they're controversial in the slightest, but Leech Seed and Toxic Threads are ones I find interesting. There has been a lot of discussion on discord about Mortal Spin as well and I'm mixed on that at the moment.
Mystical Fire is the main coverage option I've been thinking about. This is primarily due to it being potentially weak enough that offensive sets may eschew it. If CAP 38 gets proper Fire / Gound coverage (Flamethrower / Fire Blast) I really don't think it can get almost anything else. STABs + Meteor Beam + Earth Power is already very good. Some type of trapping move (i.e. Infestation or Fire Spin) is also interesting.
I think it would be good to at least decide on penalties for some of the more popular options before stats. It is a shame Aromatherapy is dexited because that could be an interesting option for defensive sets.
I'm not really sure which Meteor Beam should be. Personally, I'd have it be required, but I also don't know how that impacts later stages. What I really don't want to happen is for Meteor Beam to have a penalty if it is avoidable. If there is a penalty no matter what then fair game. Sure, there are technically alternatives to Meteor Beam, but also not really. Meteor Beam is pretty unique due to somehow being balanced for its power level. It is coverage, but it isn't reliable coverage since it is a one time boost against most teams and CAP 38 potentially 'requiring' it for multiple Pokémon (Yveltal + Ho-Oh teams in Ubers for example). As mentioned above, Electro Shot has implications with weather that many folks, including myself, would rather avoid.
Other stuff / responses
If CAP 38 does indeed get Meteor Beam then I'm genuinely unsure what offensive sets really need beyond what has commonly been discussed. Sure there is a debate about Fire coverage, but that can also be addressed in the stat stage. Ground coverage was more popular and it is more powerful, limiting defensive counterplay. It is the defensive set I'm a little more concerned about as Grass / Poison is checked or walled by quite a few bulkier Pokémon and Toxic isn't the progress making tool it is in Ubers. It is definitely possible that defensive CAP 38 can carve a niche with its current traits as a fast, fat wall that defensively handles several prominent offensive Pokémon.
The defensive set doesn't have to be the best set to be mini Eternatus, but it should be something that is at least considered for a decent amount of teams at some point in the building process. There has been a lot of criticism of many proposed support moves not feeling like Eternatus and that is true, but I'm also not sure how much that matters? I'm also not sure how much people care given it was pretty likely we would end up with this conundrum when choosing the typing and ability. While Eternatus's utility movepool lacks depth, it somehow produces variety within the defensive set and ends up being impactful. If the defensive set needs more tools than what it currently has it will have an 'anti-Eternatus' vibe because we will likely be forced to go off-typing. As with most things, the devil is in the details. Looking at what has been suggested so far...
Lecch Seed | This isn't an assumed move, but fine, underpowered even. It is a nice thing to have even if it isn't a staple of defensive sets.
Knock Off | Is this anti-conept? Sort of, but so are most things mentioned outside of Mortal Spin. It does fit the angle of useful on defensive sets, but not offensive that I like. That being said, it feels a bit shoehorned because of the power of Knock Off. I lean more towards no than yes, but it seems like it should be possible to balance.
Wisp | I'm not a fan of CAP 38 being able to spread burns or paralysis, but am somewhat amenable to burn. I don't like it, but somewhat see the vision I guess?
Thunder Wave | Lord have mercy...please no! CAP 38 can't be statused and I feel that status immunity should come at the cost of being limited to spreading poison or Toxic. Even then, one common way to handle Eternatus is to take away its speed via paralysis to let those midspeed Pokémon beat it down. Turning that dynamic on its head is something I just really really do not like.
Metal Sound | Something in my head says this could lead to some pretty unpleasant gameplay loops, but another voice says it is very easy to take away if it causes issue.
Mortal Spin | I'm neutral on this because I do not have the metagame knowledge to take a concrete stance. Mortal Spin has the vibes of a move that a mini Eternatus could reasonably have access to, but there probably a lot of reasons why it shouldn't. I don't know enough about the entry hazard metagame in CAP to know.
Trick | I both like and am worried about this.
Matcha Gatcha | I'm not the biggest fan for a few reasons. First is that 90% accuracy sucks and is something we will end up cursing Meteor Beam for after release. However, that still gives you the boost and for Matcha Gatcha it really is the only downside. The upside is that Matcha Gatcha does not seem like a move that offensive sets will utilize. I do have concerns about it being a bit toxic on defensive sets as they will both be fat enough and have the longevity to burn fish. Sure it may miss sometimes, but that comes with the burn chance, more pp, and higher BP than Giga Drain. If Matcha Gatcha ends up being worthwhile using on an offensive set then that likely comes at the cost of the defensive set's viability which I don't like.
Encore | This feels weird and I don't know enough to know if it is a good or bad idea.
Salt Cure | This is really cool, but I have a voice in my head that says this is going to be too busted, espcially with Ground-type coverage locked in. There are probably a fair few Pokémon that could muscle through CAP 38 with Tera Poison (or Substitute), but Earth Power exists. One of the nice things about Grass / Poison / Ground is how well it handles common Tera types and I get the feeling Salt Cure would push that over the edge.
Apple Acid | I'm an Appletun fan...but there is an alarm bell ringing in my head about how this could lead to degenerate gameplay loops. Yeah 80 BP isn't anything to write home about, but damn is that effect powerful. Sure it has an 'average power' of whatever over a couple of turns, but this is exacerbated by CAP 38's Speed which will make it substantially more difficult to switch around. Whilst don't know what Speed CAP 38 will end up with, the pool of Pokémon that both outspeed and threaten it will be limited. Maybe Apple Acid would be reasonable on Meteor Beam and defensive sets, but I can easily see it getting out of hand on Life Orb or Choice Specs sets. It also seems like a god damn nightmare to balance when it comes to stats because broken on one set is still broken.
Additional Suggestions
Phasing | I'd be surprised if Eternatus recieved Dragon Tail for any reason beyond it getting nearly every Dragon-type move. While Eternatus can phaze, the main motivator is utility that deviates from the controversy surrounding the entry hazard metagame. CAP 38 wouldn't be the fastest phazer, but it isn't as though Roar Zamazenta is in anyway a threat and it could be useful on defensive sets for Pokémon such as Chuggalong and Ramnarok without having to run Earth Power. I'm sure there are others, but those were the first two to come to mind.
Partial Trapping | I'm saying partial trapping because the concept is more important the specific move. Fire Spin Eternatus is a meme, but I can see the potential for some teams that could make use of CAP 38 removing specific roadblocks. Part of the reason I've gone with the general concept over a specific trapping move is that maybe trapping Mollux to remove it with Earth Power is too strong, but Whirlpool exists. I lack metagame knowledge to get into the specifics. I wanted to mention it here in case it happens to be something that could require a penalty.
Mystical Fire | I've specified Mystical Fire because it is weak enough that offensive sets likely would not entertain it and this would be an alternative to Earth Power on defensive sets that can annoy switchins and prevent them from being setup fodder for something. If offensive sets are using it then I wouldn't want to consider it without some sort of penalty. Additionally, if CAP 38 gets generic Fire coverage I think it should be restricted from nearly every move mentioned in this thread. I voted against Ground coverage because I think it is a little too good, and I have serious concerns about Ground / Fire coverage being balanced via stats without severely impacting the efficacy of defensive sets.
Final Thoughts
For what is it worth, I do think some folks get a little tunnel visioned in attempting to replicate what Eternatus does in Ubers 1:1 and I don't think it is possible to that with the established kit while creating a balanced CAP. That is also fine! We are inspired by Eternatus, not replicating it. Eternatus's flexibility comes from having multiple viable sets, but of varying strength that ebb and flow with metagame developments. Maybe when CAP 38 is released the offensive sets have the spotlight and metagame developments later push the defensive set the forefront. If CAP 38 can do that then I believe it truly will be a mini Eternatus and it currently probably isn't far off that. Giving defensive sets a couple of tools would likely get it there imo.
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@ Defensive Sets
I agree that a lot of these sigs up for discussion are pushing the boundary, and after reading bumboclaat's post I think Twave / Wisp / Apple Acid / Matcha are all unnecessary for defensive sets. I would also rather see defensive sets simply rock Giga Drain / Toxic / Earth Power / Recover before we give CAP38 Knock Off, I think Knock Off and Mortal Spin are both quite anti-concept as Etern does not engage with the hazard game at all besides setting and removing Tspikes. Toxic is still significant progress against many mons that would shrug off a defensive Sludge Bomb without a poison, such as Kyurem, Obliteryx, Moltres, and Pult.
I would like to reiterate that I think a unique grass move that is simply ~110 power with no drawbacks would help CAP38 force out mons like Libra, Snaelstrom and Gliscor to help spread Toxic or click offensive Sludge Bomb on Obliteryx and Moltres switches, and I think it replicates the functionality of Eternatus's Dynamax Cannon.
120 Base SpA Hydrapple:
252 SpA Hydrapple 110 BP Grass Move vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Equilibra: 109-130 (26.7 - 31.8%)
252 SpA Hydrapple Energy Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Equilibra: 90-106 (22 - 25.9%)
158 Base SpA Hydrapple:
252 SpA Hydrapple Energy Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Equilibra: 109-130 (26.7 - 31.8%)
I suppose tuning up this mon's SpA stat to ridiculous levels may be able to achieve the same feat, which I think is fine as long as we can do meaningful damage to Libra and Snael. However, I get a little worried that Giga Drain is always going to be the better move to spam over Energy Ball because the BP drop is worth keeping CAP38 healthy, and I feel that not having a strong STAB move to spam is missing out on a key part of Etern's identity.
@ Offensive Sets
I think its cool that our typing happens to work out so that a lot of our main answers (Kyurem, Oblit, Molt, Torn, Cinderace, Venomicon) are hit for super effective by Meteor Beam. I don't think CAP38's offensive sets need anything more, and I also don't think increasing the power of its grass STAB causes any realistic balance problems.
I agree that a lot of these sigs up for discussion are pushing the boundary, and after reading bumboclaat's post I think Twave / Wisp / Apple Acid / Matcha are all unnecessary for defensive sets. I would also rather see defensive sets simply rock Giga Drain / Toxic / Earth Power / Recover before we give CAP38 Knock Off, I think Knock Off and Mortal Spin are both quite anti-concept as Etern does not engage with the hazard game at all besides setting and removing Tspikes. Toxic is still significant progress against many mons that would shrug off a defensive Sludge Bomb without a poison, such as Kyurem, Obliteryx, Moltres, and Pult.
I would like to reiterate that I think a unique grass move that is simply ~110 power with no drawbacks would help CAP38 force out mons like Libra, Snaelstrom and Gliscor to help spread Toxic or click offensive Sludge Bomb on Obliteryx and Moltres switches, and I think it replicates the functionality of Eternatus's Dynamax Cannon.
120 Base SpA Hydrapple:
252 SpA Hydrapple 110 BP Grass Move vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Equilibra: 109-130 (26.7 - 31.8%)
252 SpA Hydrapple Energy Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Equilibra: 90-106 (22 - 25.9%)
158 Base SpA Hydrapple:
252 SpA Hydrapple Energy Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Equilibra: 109-130 (26.7 - 31.8%)
I suppose tuning up this mon's SpA stat to ridiculous levels may be able to achieve the same feat, which I think is fine as long as we can do meaningful damage to Libra and Snael. However, I get a little worried that Giga Drain is always going to be the better move to spam over Energy Ball because the BP drop is worth keeping CAP38 healthy, and I feel that not having a strong STAB move to spam is missing out on a key part of Etern's identity.
@ Offensive Sets
I think its cool that our typing happens to work out so that a lot of our main answers (Kyurem, Oblit, Molt, Torn, Cinderace, Venomicon) are hit for super effective by Meteor Beam. I don't think CAP38's offensive sets need anything more, and I also don't think increasing the power of its grass STAB causes any realistic balance problems.
For what is worth my concerns with Apple Acid are solely with offensive sets. It is a pretty thoughtful suggestion and would be really cool on defensive sets. If it is possible to balance then awesome! The only thing I really really do not like is paralysis and I believe most other suggestions can be reasonably balanced even if they are not the direction I'd personally take. There have been a lot of interesting proposals and this thread has been a joy to read!
If only CAP did signatures… (with the exception of frameworks)
I think we want some way for our defensive sets to break Libra and the pheal guys, which seems like it could be accomplished with either Apple Acid or a stronger Grass stab. I do kinda worry that Apple Acid makes the offensive sets too strong, and it might be a bit too free of a move to click to cover switches. If sig moves aren't an option, then it may just be up to the stat phase to give CAP38 a strong enough SpA stat to break Libra/Snael without a stat boost.
The stats discussion is feeling a little bit poll jumpy for me but for now here are some of my thoughts on some of the moves brought up
Salt Cure: hard no I do not want to relive the moments of garg running half the tier when obliteryx first dropped. Despite that, I can see why there are arguments for this move as it's indeed a strong move however as it stands I don't particularly like this option as it could be too centralizing with the already locked in coverage option of ground
Apple Acid: like I said in my previous post, I feel this could be a strong option for a potential stab as it can help us give a similar ramping effect to toxic however I do see why some people might be iffy on it due to it being a signature move however it could give us an easier time against libra and snael as a strong neutral option
Mystical Fire: while it could potentially work I still don't like the idea of having dual coverage and like I have stated before, Cap 38 should have some hard counters so that it doesn't just immediately dominate the tier day 1
Phasing and Partial Trapping: grouping these two together and this could be promising ideas to allow for more utility however as many people have brought up, we might not want to give it too deep an utility movepool as it's not eternatus-like, however these types of moves could lead to more set variety which is what we are aiming for.
Matcha Gotcha: I don't see the vision, sure the burn chance could be great however since it is assumed that Cap 38 will get a 50% recovery move and Giga Drain, I see this as an unesscessary option at the moment.
And last but not least, Taunt: this could help as a tool for some setup threats or to shut down healing so I do support it. But the side that do not want this move do bring up good arguments as it could prove to be a wide toolkit that might not work for this concept specifically.
These are just my thoughts on some of the moves that have been discussed so far as a way to collect my thoughts as we continue about the process.
Salt Cure: hard no I do not want to relive the moments of garg running half the tier when obliteryx first dropped. Despite that, I can see why there are arguments for this move as it's indeed a strong move however as it stands I don't particularly like this option as it could be too centralizing with the already locked in coverage option of ground
Apple Acid: like I said in my previous post, I feel this could be a strong option for a potential stab as it can help us give a similar ramping effect to toxic however I do see why some people might be iffy on it due to it being a signature move however it could give us an easier time against libra and snael as a strong neutral option
Mystical Fire: while it could potentially work I still don't like the idea of having dual coverage and like I have stated before, Cap 38 should have some hard counters so that it doesn't just immediately dominate the tier day 1
Phasing and Partial Trapping: grouping these two together and this could be promising ideas to allow for more utility however as many people have brought up, we might not want to give it too deep an utility movepool as it's not eternatus-like, however these types of moves could lead to more set variety which is what we are aiming for.
Matcha Gotcha: I don't see the vision, sure the burn chance could be great however since it is assumed that Cap 38 will get a 50% recovery move and Giga Drain, I see this as an unesscessary option at the moment.
And last but not least, Taunt: this could help as a tool for some setup threats or to shut down healing so I do support it. But the side that do not want this move do bring up good arguments as it could prove to be a wide toolkit that might not work for this concept specifically.
These are just my thoughts on some of the moves that have been discussed so far as a way to collect my thoughts as we continue about the process.
I'm not that worried about replicating Dynamax Cannon as a spammable STAB option. It's strong and reliable and an auto-include on a lot of Eternatus sets, but it's not that unique of a trait. It's just a high power move that hits a lot of things for neutral, and with our STAB combo I would rather accept that as one of the ways that we don't match Eternatus 1:1.
With Apple Acid, it feels odd trying to combine both Dynamax Cannon and Toxic in the same moveslot. It also seems like it'll play similar to Leech Seed in practice, since they both pressure the opponent into switching to get rid of the effect. Maybe we could run both Leech + Apple Acid, but after a recovery move I don't think there's a super clean option to round out the set.
I'm open to adding some utility move to help out defensive sets. Eternatus has a minimalist movepool, but it's also a very synergistic one. The combo of Dragon STAB + Fire coverage + Poison move (STAB or status) doesn't really need anything else to make progress against most of Ubers. An extra bit of progress-making utility makes sense to match the reliability and consistency it has. IMO Leech Seed is a solid ingredient for defensive sets, it doesn't ramp up like Toxic does and isn't permanent, but either forcing a switch or getting chip + healing are both strong short term outcomes. I'd like a utility move that synergizes with Leech Seed in some way.
Knock Off is a pretty generically good move, but y'know, Leech + Knock has been a pretty good combo on bulky Grass types in the past. Leech Seed forces switches, Knock Off is a way to capitalize and make some permanent progress. I'm lukewarm on it, and would prefer some other way to tie defensive sets together, but it works. Trick sounds interesting, as a less spammable / funnier version of Knock Off, and I am a fan of following the funny factor of Eternatus.
Other miscellaneous suggestions I think are neat are Foul Play, Encore, HP-Halving move, and Mystical Fire.
With Apple Acid, it feels odd trying to combine both Dynamax Cannon and Toxic in the same moveslot. It also seems like it'll play similar to Leech Seed in practice, since they both pressure the opponent into switching to get rid of the effect. Maybe we could run both Leech + Apple Acid, but after a recovery move I don't think there's a super clean option to round out the set.
I'm open to adding some utility move to help out defensive sets. Eternatus has a minimalist movepool, but it's also a very synergistic one. The combo of Dragon STAB + Fire coverage + Poison move (STAB or status) doesn't really need anything else to make progress against most of Ubers. An extra bit of progress-making utility makes sense to match the reliability and consistency it has. IMO Leech Seed is a solid ingredient for defensive sets, it doesn't ramp up like Toxic does and isn't permanent, but either forcing a switch or getting chip + healing are both strong short term outcomes. I'd like a utility move that synergizes with Leech Seed in some way.
Knock Off is a pretty generically good move, but y'know, Leech + Knock has been a pretty good combo on bulky Grass types in the past. Leech Seed forces switches, Knock Off is a way to capitalize and make some permanent progress. I'm lukewarm on it, and would prefer some other way to tie defensive sets together, but it works. Trick sounds interesting, as a less spammable / funnier version of Knock Off, and I am a fan of following the funny factor of Eternatus.
Other miscellaneous suggestions I think are neat are Foul Play, Encore, HP-Halving move, and Mystical Fire.
We don't yet need to determine what's 100% a good fit for CAP 38; we only need to identify which moves are at least valid, and which of those options will also affect the stats stage. For example, I think folks can disagree about whether Will-O-Wisp is good or bad for us for any number of reasons, but it nonetheless seems to be a valid route that has pro-concept applications. I think it's always good to step back from our personal visions for what this mon should run on its main set, and consider more broadly the range of options that are still valid to explore. Many proposed utility options also won't affect our calcs or overall strength during the Stats stage and can easily be left for later.
Lots of random signature moves have come up here, as they always do, but the only one I see as worth including is Apple Acid. Signatures should have a much higher bar for inclusion than your run-of-the-mill coverage or utility options. Something like Mortal Spin is not necessary at all for our success, and Salt Cure is the a nuclear option for a dilemma that has far more reasonable solutions available. We'll be more than fine without providing CAP38 signature utility options that are unnecessary and arguably ill-fitting in the first place.
I'm 50/50 on Apple Acid as something that should have a place in our final movepool, but I'm convinced it has enough pro-concept applications to at least earn its consideration during the Stats stage. I'm sure it'll come with a hefty stat penalty, and the asymmetry of how it benefits defensive vs offensive sets makes it awkward to design around, but again — whether or not it's definitively good for us at this point isn't my primary concern. It should at least be on the table for individual submitters. I feel similarly about Knock Off — this move is controversial, but I think the case for it is strong enough to warrant inclusion as an optional move in Stats. Matcha Gotcha is another interesting Grass STAB option, but its relevance to our concept is more ambigious to me, and I'm not sure it addresses our viability concerns as well as Apple Acid, either. I don't believe it quite meets the bar for tossing on a signature.
The main thing informing my perspective right now is that I'm sorta skeptical our assumed defensive set of Grass STAB / EP / Toxic or Leech / Recover will have enough juice. This set reads as very passive despite our great defensive ability and decent typing, and I think we'd really appreciate an assist on the utility side or on the STAB side.
Lots of random signature moves have come up here, as they always do, but the only one I see as worth including is Apple Acid. Signatures should have a much higher bar for inclusion than your run-of-the-mill coverage or utility options. Something like Mortal Spin is not necessary at all for our success, and Salt Cure is the a nuclear option for a dilemma that has far more reasonable solutions available. We'll be more than fine without providing CAP38 signature utility options that are unnecessary and arguably ill-fitting in the first place.
I'm 50/50 on Apple Acid as something that should have a place in our final movepool, but I'm convinced it has enough pro-concept applications to at least earn its consideration during the Stats stage. I'm sure it'll come with a hefty stat penalty, and the asymmetry of how it benefits defensive vs offensive sets makes it awkward to design around, but again — whether or not it's definitively good for us at this point isn't my primary concern. It should at least be on the table for individual submitters. I feel similarly about Knock Off — this move is controversial, but I think the case for it is strong enough to warrant inclusion as an optional move in Stats. Matcha Gotcha is another interesting Grass STAB option, but its relevance to our concept is more ambigious to me, and I'm not sure it addresses our viability concerns as well as Apple Acid, either. I don't believe it quite meets the bar for tossing on a signature.
The main thing informing my perspective right now is that I'm sorta skeptical our assumed defensive set of Grass STAB / EP / Toxic or Leech / Recover will have enough juice. This set reads as very passive despite our great defensive ability and decent typing, and I think we'd really appreciate an assist on the utility side or on the STAB side.
I disagree that apple acid actually has pro concept applications in the way the people here seem to expect.
At the moment we need to solve two remaining issues for the concept.
1) Make CAP 38s attacks powerful enough that they always (or at least in most cases) feel like an easy button to click.
Apple acid does help here by ramping up damage over consecutive clicks (how often a situation where you can click it consecutively in a game actually comes up is a different question, which I’m not too confident in, given our CC list) It might even be cute with Metronome as item, which Eternatus sometimes rocks. I don’t necessarily think that Apple Acid does this in the same non conditional way as Toxic but maybe you can if you squint a bit.
That said this is a more minor remaining issue as our 3 move coverage is very solid whoch makes this solvable via juiced stats. Having a Special Attack stat that is simply very high will do a lot for spammability.
2) Bridging the power gap between offensive and defensive sets
My biggest concern ever since we chose grass/poison as typing has been this and if I’m being honest we have done the bare minimum to maybe bring them close enough together to make both viable.
Apple Acid wants to solve this. But it miserably fails. Realistically this move widens the gap further bc dropping the opponents SpD is more beneficial if you can follow it up with a Super effective coverage move. The defensive sets rarely will have that luxury compared to the offensive set. While it is true that it also boosts the fat sets offensive power and the stat drops do encourage a build that wants to stay in longer, I believe that CAP 38 will not have enough utility defensively compared to the power of the offensive sets, to actually be used with that set.
If you must indulge in this move I would argue that it should not come with a bsr limitation bc that targets both sets (reducing SpA to entertain this move hurts the defensive sets as well) but instead with a hard limit on coverage, restricting it from both fire coverage and meteor beam access, otherwise the benefits for offensive simply outweigh those for defensive and we fail solving this second issue. Even with this limitation I have my doubts that it would close the gap enough for a defensive sets to be viable.
At this point I think any solution we want for these remaining problems should come through stats. Not because I think there are no moves that could maybe help for especially the second one, but because I think working with a minimal set of tools is 1) perfectly in Eternatus spirit and
2) makes it much easier to gauge potential problems once we’ve seen the Mon in action and
3) gives us more flexibility to adjust power upwards if we deem it necessary.
Also, while this isn’t necessarily a competitive argument this community has a tendency to latch onto any funky and „fun“ new toy that we can hand out and I am seriously worried that choosing stat spreads will become more about wanting apple acid or any other funky signature or not, than about the actual spreads.
To not be all negative here I’m think we should entertain Scorching Sands now that ground coverage has been locked in. It gives the defensive sets a bit more utility especially against the poison and steel types you hit with the move. Idk how much this affects bsr to be real but it’s a good option imo.
At the moment we need to solve two remaining issues for the concept.
1) Make CAP 38s attacks powerful enough that they always (or at least in most cases) feel like an easy button to click.
Apple acid does help here by ramping up damage over consecutive clicks (how often a situation where you can click it consecutively in a game actually comes up is a different question, which I’m not too confident in, given our CC list) It might even be cute with Metronome as item, which Eternatus sometimes rocks. I don’t necessarily think that Apple Acid does this in the same non conditional way as Toxic but maybe you can if you squint a bit.
That said this is a more minor remaining issue as our 3 move coverage is very solid whoch makes this solvable via juiced stats. Having a Special Attack stat that is simply very high will do a lot for spammability.
2) Bridging the power gap between offensive and defensive sets
My biggest concern ever since we chose grass/poison as typing has been this and if I’m being honest we have done the bare minimum to maybe bring them close enough together to make both viable.
Apple Acid wants to solve this. But it miserably fails. Realistically this move widens the gap further bc dropping the opponents SpD is more beneficial if you can follow it up with a Super effective coverage move. The defensive sets rarely will have that luxury compared to the offensive set. While it is true that it also boosts the fat sets offensive power and the stat drops do encourage a build that wants to stay in longer, I believe that CAP 38 will not have enough utility defensively compared to the power of the offensive sets, to actually be used with that set.
If you must indulge in this move I would argue that it should not come with a bsr limitation bc that targets both sets (reducing SpA to entertain this move hurts the defensive sets as well) but instead with a hard limit on coverage, restricting it from both fire coverage and meteor beam access, otherwise the benefits for offensive simply outweigh those for defensive and we fail solving this second issue. Even with this limitation I have my doubts that it would close the gap enough for a defensive sets to be viable.
At this point I think any solution we want for these remaining problems should come through stats. Not because I think there are no moves that could maybe help for especially the second one, but because I think working with a minimal set of tools is 1) perfectly in Eternatus spirit and
2) makes it much easier to gauge potential problems once we’ve seen the Mon in action and
3) gives us more flexibility to adjust power upwards if we deem it necessary.
Also, while this isn’t necessarily a competitive argument this community has a tendency to latch onto any funky and „fun“ new toy that we can hand out and I am seriously worried that choosing stat spreads will become more about wanting apple acid or any other funky signature or not, than about the actual spreads.
To not be all negative here I’m think we should entertain Scorching Sands now that ground coverage has been locked in. It gives the defensive sets a bit more utility especially against the poison and steel types you hit with the move. Idk how much this affects bsr to be real but it’s a good option imo.
I agree w/ spoo and quziel that we shouldn't really try to close off any routes at this stage. The point of this stage is to give guidance to the Stat stages, not to hone in on a path; we have all of Stats and Movesets to do that.
The only utility that is really relevant to stats imo is Will-o-Wisp. Since we will be fast, burn is actually quite a relevant Physical bulk increase that should be accounted for. Other than that, I feel like it can be hashed out during movesets. The argument for Knock Off / Mortal Spin / etc. in defining moves comes from a vague power budget argument, which I guess is OK (there's been penalties for Encore in the past) but it does feel like discussion on this point has gotten a bit unproductive?
(Maybe Leech Seed is relevant to stats? Some people were arguing about how it is impacted if we opt for high HP vs low HP builds. I don't think we're going to push for low HP spread due to Leech Seed + Giga Drain though)
Anyways, time for a hatepost. Skip if you don't like drama.
For the record, I envision Apple Acid would take the utility slot. Apple Acid + Poison STAB + Ground Coverage or Mystical Fire + Recover seems fine. This wouldn't compromise its ability to hit Pokemon super-effectively compared to offensive sets at all.
I'm not super convinced Apple Acid is particularly better on offensive sets than defensive sets. For defensive sets, Apple Acid opens up matchups vs. Calm Mind Fairies, Gliscor, Snael, etc. that more offensive sets can muscle past anyways. Additionally, for offensive sets, missing out on OHKOs vs opposing offensive threats is much more relevant than for defensive sets.
If anything, I am worried it will push offensive sets towards Leftovers / Boots instead of LO and Meteor Beam (4a Meteor Beam especially is something I worry won't be worth it with Apple Acid). Maybe you were thinking that the defensive set would be like Apple Acid / Toxic / Earth Power / Recover, in which case... maybe? It still seems quite valuable here with Apple Acid pressuring Toxic-immune mons to switch, potentially securing Toxic progress.
As far as CAP meta is concerned, the 2 main styles are HO and fat balance, with very little midground. At the moment, CAP38 feels like Cresceidon / Mollux in that it should have a much better time into HO than fat balance (due to its speed + bulk -> trades efficiently into HO mons). It's definitely possible that Apple Acid pushes the matchup vs. fat balance a bit too far (a different flavor of Astro).
Given that we didn't address any of our offensive issues in Ability stage (though Ground coverage helps a good amount), we should at least entertain the idea of high impact moves. There's definitely some weirdness with Apple Acid, and I don't think it's the only way forward, (the alternative involves a lot of stats), but I think it brings enough to be optional here.
The only utility that is really relevant to stats imo is Will-o-Wisp. Since we will be fast, burn is actually quite a relevant Physical bulk increase that should be accounted for. Other than that, I feel like it can be hashed out during movesets. The argument for Knock Off / Mortal Spin / etc. in defining moves comes from a vague power budget argument, which I guess is OK (there's been penalties for Encore in the past) but it does feel like discussion on this point has gotten a bit unproductive?
(Maybe Leech Seed is relevant to stats? Some people were arguing about how it is impacted if we opt for high HP vs low HP builds. I don't think we're going to push for low HP spread due to Leech Seed + Giga Drain though)
Anyways, time for a hatepost. Skip if you don't like drama.
For the record, I envision Apple Acid would take the utility slot. Apple Acid + Poison STAB + Ground Coverage or Mystical Fire + Recover seems fine. This wouldn't compromise its ability to hit Pokemon super-effectively compared to offensive sets at all.
I'm not super convinced Apple Acid is particularly better on offensive sets than defensive sets. For defensive sets, Apple Acid opens up matchups vs. Calm Mind Fairies, Gliscor, Snael, etc. that more offensive sets can muscle past anyways. Additionally, for offensive sets, missing out on OHKOs vs opposing offensive threats is much more relevant than for defensive sets.
If anything, I am worried it will push offensive sets towards Leftovers / Boots instead of LO and Meteor Beam (4a Meteor Beam especially is something I worry won't be worth it with Apple Acid). Maybe you were thinking that the defensive set would be like Apple Acid / Toxic / Earth Power / Recover, in which case... maybe? It still seems quite valuable here with Apple Acid pressuring Toxic-immune mons to switch, potentially securing Toxic progress.
As far as CAP meta is concerned, the 2 main styles are HO and fat balance, with very little midground. At the moment, CAP38 feels like Cresceidon / Mollux in that it should have a much better time into HO than fat balance (due to its speed + bulk -> trades efficiently into HO mons). It's definitely possible that Apple Acid pushes the matchup vs. fat balance a bit too far (a different flavor of Astro).
Given that we didn't address any of our offensive issues in Ability stage (though Ground coverage helps a good amount), we should at least entertain the idea of high impact moves. There's definitely some weirdness with Apple Acid, and I don't think it's the only way forward, (the alternative involves a lot of stats), but I think it brings enough to be optional here.
Gotta agree about signature move spam being too much, there should be a high bar to clear to include one, with an especially important need to be pro concept. Matcha Gotcha is too low impact for consideration, Salt Cure is completely warping and leaves little room for actual offense, and Mortal Spin while cool doesn’t really accomplish much concept wise.
Apple Acid is very pro concept as people above have argued, it deserves consideration. There’s also the Seed Flare nuclear option Spammernoob hinted at… maybe not.
Some people have been lukewarm on including Knock Off so I want to emphasize that the reason it should be off the table is specifically because it has a decent amount of support. It’s a very easy and attractive option that also totally detracts from our objective. In fact the main case we see being made in favor of it is that it’s strong! I feel some people underestimate just how metagame defining knock bots are, and our typing and ability making us match up well into the absorbers means we will be especially strong in that role. Knock off is not the kind of move you can expect offensive mons to give up just because it deals no damage, it will absolutely affect the offensive set.
This is exactly the kind of situation where a move should not be an option: when it risks warping discussion and heavily influencing people’s choices despite actively going against our goal.
Alternative setup like cosmic power/work up can be interesting if they are properly supervised, it will definitely need a bsr penalty though.
Charge Beam is something I would have liked to see more discussion on, especially since we are special, as a conditional setup move and coverage move that falls significantly below the power of electro shot or meteor beam. It’s impact might be very significant
Apple Acid is very pro concept as people above have argued, it deserves consideration. There’s also the Seed Flare nuclear option Spammernoob hinted at… maybe not.
Some people have been lukewarm on including Knock Off so I want to emphasize that the reason it should be off the table is specifically because it has a decent amount of support. It’s a very easy and attractive option that also totally detracts from our objective. In fact the main case we see being made in favor of it is that it’s strong! I feel some people underestimate just how metagame defining knock bots are, and our typing and ability making us match up well into the absorbers means we will be especially strong in that role. Knock off is not the kind of move you can expect offensive mons to give up just because it deals no damage, it will absolutely affect the offensive set.
This is exactly the kind of situation where a move should not be an option: when it risks warping discussion and heavily influencing people’s choices despite actively going against our goal.
I agree with Ama’s proposal, I see the case for apple acid but it might not be strictly necessary, and is awkward to balance around meteor beam. Main worry I have is meteor beam becoming the only good offensive set if it is too central to our offensive budget.
Yes, I think leech seed is important to nail down, it has become a rare sight in gen9 but is actually a powerful option when you have the means to use it, and kind-of replicates Etern’s staying power and toxic chip. It can definitely affect the power of the defensive set
Meteor Beam should be an optional move, in part because Apple Acid has potential but doesn’t want to exist with it, and also because meteor beam might just not work how we want it to with our chosen offensive types.
Alternative setup like cosmic power/work up can be interesting if they are properly supervised, it will definitely need a bsr penalty though.
Charge Beam is something I would have liked to see more discussion on, especially since we are special, as a conditional setup move and coverage move that falls significantly below the power of electro shot or meteor beam. It’s impact might be very significant
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For all the Apple Acid/Meteor Beam/Charge Beam discussion:
Charge Beam is very much the bullet to Meteor Beam's missile strike. Comparing them, 50bp vs 120bp is a massive drop in power. It's looking at their other attributes that creates the competition. This is how I understand them- please feel free to correct or improve upon my figures. I'm pretty new to this
.
Both options steer more towards one playstyle. Meteor Beam rewards all-or-nothing offensive sets. Charge Beam bolsters defensive spreads, because you'll want to hang around to make the most of it. Neither of them, as I see it, are very good ideas if we're setting our hearts on Apple Acid.
Summary: Meteor Beam might be okay. Charge Beam is probably bad. Apple Acid is incompatible with either of them.
Charge Beam is very much the bullet to Meteor Beam's missile strike. Comparing them, 50bp vs 120bp is a massive drop in power. It's looking at their other attributes that creates the competition. This is how I understand them- please feel free to correct or improve upon my figures. I'm pretty new to this
.Meteor Beam will handily nuke mons like 
into oblivion. It slots well into offensive sets, allowing them to boost, and promotes Power Herb as an item, increasing set variety. It's fairly simple, and it fits well with Eternatus's 'one big shot' playstyle. It can come in and beam, or reserve it for later. The one-and-gone playstyle could serve as a valuable guard rail to keep Mininatus in check.
Here are some calcs, assuming a Special Attack stat of 120.
+1 252 SpA Venusaur Meteor Beam vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Venomicon: 314-370 (83.9 - 98.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO.
Nothing much to say here. We beat out one of our main counters. That's the appeal of the move.
+1 252 SpA Venusaur Meteor Beam vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Corviknight: 210-248 (52.6 - 62.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO.
More interesting, because Corviknight can potentially Roost off the damage and threaten us back with Brave Bird.
Here's what happens if we catch one of our best counters with Apple Acid chip on the switch-in:
+1 252 SpA Venusaur Meteor Beam vs. -1 252 HP / 252+ SpD Slowking-Galar: 187-221 (47.4 - 56%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
And if we can land a second Apple Acid- pretty likely, as Slowking-Galar can only 2hko a Venusaur with uninvested Psychic- and we're likely going to be tougher then Venusaur...
+1 252 SpA Venusaur Meteor Beam vs. -2 252 HP / 252+ SpD Slowking-Galar: 249-294 (63.1 - 74.6%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
That's our most solid counter if we drop ground coverage, and we've got a good chance of beating it in a 1 vs 1. By contrast, Earth Power:
252 SpA Venusaur Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Slowking-Galar: 126-150 (31.9 - 38%) -- 95.6% chance to 3HKO.
And after we land a Meteor Beam:
+1 252 SpA Venusaur Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Slowking-Galar: 188-222 (47.7 - 56.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO.
Apple Acid+Meteor Beam invalidates one of the biggest reasons to run Ground Coverage. That's not even considering what we might do to other walls. So from that alone, I don't think we should let Meteor Beam+Apple Acid without some serious stat nerfs.
But what about without Apple Acid?
+1 252 SpA Venusaur Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Slowking-Galar: 102-120 (25.8 - 30.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO.
This is much better. If we want to keep some hard checks- and we should- Meteor Beam gives us some neat counterplay against certain threats, without being too oppressive on it's own.
Summary: Meteor Beam is the 'Eternatus option.' If we pick it, we're committing to the hassle it'll cause us in the stats stage. People have raised concerns about it becoming the 'only offensive set' or 'doing nothing for defensive spreads.' Those are very possible. This should not be an assumed option. Someone far more experienced then me has to run the numbers before we commit ourselves.
into oblivion. It slots well into offensive sets, allowing them to boost, and promotes Power Herb as an item, increasing set variety. It's fairly simple, and it fits well with Eternatus's 'one big shot' playstyle. It can come in and beam, or reserve it for later. The one-and-gone playstyle could serve as a valuable guard rail to keep Mininatus in check. Here are some calcs, assuming a Special Attack stat of 120.
+1 252 SpA Venusaur Meteor Beam vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Venomicon: 314-370 (83.9 - 98.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO.
Nothing much to say here. We beat out one of our main counters. That's the appeal of the move.
+1 252 SpA Venusaur Meteor Beam vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Corviknight: 210-248 (52.6 - 62.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO.
More interesting, because Corviknight can potentially Roost off the damage and threaten us back with Brave Bird.
Here's what happens if we catch one of our best counters with Apple Acid chip on the switch-in:
+1 252 SpA Venusaur Meteor Beam vs. -1 252 HP / 252+ SpD Slowking-Galar: 187-221 (47.4 - 56%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
And if we can land a second Apple Acid- pretty likely, as Slowking-Galar can only 2hko a Venusaur with uninvested Psychic- and we're likely going to be tougher then Venusaur...
+1 252 SpA Venusaur Meteor Beam vs. -2 252 HP / 252+ SpD Slowking-Galar: 249-294 (63.1 - 74.6%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
That's our most solid counter if we drop ground coverage, and we've got a good chance of beating it in a 1 vs 1. By contrast, Earth Power:
252 SpA Venusaur Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Slowking-Galar: 126-150 (31.9 - 38%) -- 95.6% chance to 3HKO.
And after we land a Meteor Beam:
+1 252 SpA Venusaur Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Slowking-Galar: 188-222 (47.7 - 56.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO.
Apple Acid+Meteor Beam invalidates one of the biggest reasons to run Ground Coverage. That's not even considering what we might do to other walls. So from that alone, I don't think we should let Meteor Beam+Apple Acid without some serious stat nerfs.
But what about without Apple Acid?
+1 252 SpA Venusaur Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Slowking-Galar: 102-120 (25.8 - 30.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO.
This is much better. If we want to keep some hard checks- and we should- Meteor Beam gives us some neat counterplay against certain threats, without being too oppressive on it's own.
Summary: Meteor Beam is the 'Eternatus option.' If we pick it, we're committing to the hassle it'll cause us in the stats stage. People have raised concerns about it becoming the 'only offensive set' or 'doing nothing for defensive spreads.' Those are very possible. This should not be an assumed option. Someone far more experienced then me has to run the numbers before we commit ourselves.
Charge Beam, however, has the opposite playstyle. It's a coverage move- though not one that'll beat any of our checks quickly- but it's also more unreliable. 90% accuracy and 70% boosting leaves us at the mercy of chance, which is not how Eternatus does things. Charge Beam is, however more valuable for defensive sets. It allows them to rack up chip and boosts, potentially alleviating our passivity issues.
But we do have to look at it cynically as well. The moment Mininatus starts racking up boosts, the opponent's going to switch in their check/counter. There's a very good chance we'll be forced out before the boosting starts to do anything. As a coverage move, we're unlikely to net KOs on anything. If Meteor Beam risks defining us, Charge Beam might have a much lower impact then we'd hope.
Here are the calcs, also assuming Sp. Attack 120.
252 SpA Life Orb Venusaur Charge Beam vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Venomicon: 117-138 (31.2 - 36.8%) -- 68.9% chance to 3HKO.
Even with boosts, we're not beating this out on anything smaller then a 3HKO without chip damage. If we get Apple Acid chip on the switch-in:
252 SpA Life Orb Venusaur Charge Beam vs. -1 252 HP / 252 SpD Venomicon: 172-203 (45.9 - 54.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
In short, we're not beating this thing 1vs1.
252 SpA Life Orb Venusaur Charge Beam vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Corviknight: 153-182 (38.3 - 45.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Venusaur Charge Beam vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Corviknight: 229-270 (57.3 - 67.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Better. We've turned a decent check into a solid chance of victory here.
And for the Slowking matchup, if we get Charge Beam in on the switch:
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Venusaur Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Slowking-Galar: 244-289 (61.9 - 73.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO.
On the other hand, we can do the exact same thing if we allow Apple Acid alone.
252 SpA Life Orb Venusaur Earth Power vs. -1 252 HP / 252+ SpD Slowking-Galar: 244-289 (61.9 - 73.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Charge Beam is much lower impact- most of what it achieves can be replaced by Apple Acid itself. I think it's an interesting option to consider if we're sticking to Energy Ball, but if Apple Acid is our Dynamax cannon, Charge Beam is pretty much useless.
But we do have to look at it cynically as well. The moment Mininatus starts racking up boosts, the opponent's going to switch in their check/counter. There's a very good chance we'll be forced out before the boosting starts to do anything. As a coverage move, we're unlikely to net KOs on anything. If Meteor Beam risks defining us, Charge Beam might have a much lower impact then we'd hope.
Here are the calcs, also assuming Sp. Attack 120.
252 SpA Life Orb Venusaur Charge Beam vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Venomicon: 117-138 (31.2 - 36.8%) -- 68.9% chance to 3HKO.
Even with boosts, we're not beating this out on anything smaller then a 3HKO without chip damage. If we get Apple Acid chip on the switch-in:
252 SpA Life Orb Venusaur Charge Beam vs. -1 252 HP / 252 SpD Venomicon: 172-203 (45.9 - 54.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
In short, we're not beating this thing 1vs1.
252 SpA Life Orb Venusaur Charge Beam vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Corviknight: 153-182 (38.3 - 45.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Venusaur Charge Beam vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Corviknight: 229-270 (57.3 - 67.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Better. We've turned a decent check into a solid chance of victory here.
And for the Slowking matchup, if we get Charge Beam in on the switch:
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Venusaur Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Slowking-Galar: 244-289 (61.9 - 73.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO.
On the other hand, we can do the exact same thing if we allow Apple Acid alone.
252 SpA Life Orb Venusaur Earth Power vs. -1 252 HP / 252+ SpD Slowking-Galar: 244-289 (61.9 - 73.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Charge Beam is much lower impact- most of what it achieves can be replaced by Apple Acid itself. I think it's an interesting option to consider if we're sticking to Energy Ball, but if Apple Acid is our Dynamax cannon, Charge Beam is pretty much useless.
Both options steer more towards one playstyle. Meteor Beam rewards all-or-nothing offensive sets. Charge Beam bolsters defensive spreads, because you'll want to hang around to make the most of it. Neither of them, as I see it, are very good ideas if we're setting our hearts on Apple Acid.
Summary: Meteor Beam might be okay. Charge Beam is probably bad. Apple Acid is incompatible with either of them.
Alright cappers, getting about that time to start putting a wrap on this stage. Been a lot of very useful posts the last few days, though there are still some things I'd like some final clarification on before we hand things over to the Stats department. As context for the rest of my post, here's my current preliminary slate
Required: Grass STAB (Giga Drain/Energy Ball/Leaf Storm), Poison STAB (Sludge Bomb/Wave), Ground Coverage (Scorching Sands/Earth Power), Toxic, Leech Seed
Optional: Apple Acid, Meteor Beam, Fire Coverage (Mystical Fire/Flamethrower/Fire Blast), Will-O-Wisp
Utility as a whole has had a pretty mixed bag of low impact moves that don't really need be accounted for this stage specifically (Foul Play, Super Fang, hell even Mortal Spin). Beyond the pretty universally assumed/supported Toxic & Leech Seed, the only two moves that the TLT and I feel would have tangible Stat impact were Will-O-Wisp and Knock Off. A fast burn spreader that is itself a status absorber is potent enough of a combo that it should have an impact on our total BSR, but will likely only have minor penalties. Unless anyone has any major objections, all other proposed utility besides the 3 in the above list can wait until Movesets for further discussion.
Knock Off has been HEAVILY discussed in all channels of the process, with well reasoned support from both sides. While I myself tend to agree with the crowd of allowing knock with heavy penalties on the basis of freeing options instead of restricting them, I can't deny that the pushback toward it has been high, a fair bit higher than usual for a CAP process. With Apple Acid also now in the mix of things, which despite its own controversy I think will be a better solution for the ailing defensive set than Knock could do, as it leans better into the more offensive nature of Eternatus. For these reasons, as well as the moves controversy, I think we'll be better off leaving Knock Off behind this time.
Apple Acid & Meteor Beam are the last major items on the docket that need sorting out before moving to Stats. For the moment I've elected to put them both in Optional. There was little consensus on whether or not Meteor Beam should be Required or not, and given how high impact the combo of Acid + Meteor would be on 38's Stat limits leads me to believe leaving them both in Optional is the safest path forward. I'd also considered putting them in a mutually exclusive "Choose Only One" category, but I don't think we need to necessarily restrict them in this way.
On the topic of Apple Acid v Matcha Gotcha, I went for Apple Acid due to its notably higher support as well as impact on Stat Limits, as well as for actually moving the needle on making 38's Grass STAB function more akin to Dynamax Cannon, which I feel Matcha does not really accomplish. Matcha's not a bad move by any means, but I very much do not want to overload this thing with signature moves as CAP loves to do, so I'd like for us to focus on the option with the greater effect on the mon's build.
I'd also be willing to put Meteor Beam in a "Choose Only One" category with other quirky setup options but frankly there wasn't enough mention or consensus on what those moves could even be since most just want Meteor itself (and no, Charge Beam isn't in consideration, see below). If anyone has something to say regarding viable Meteor Beam alternatives before we wrap up, please do so now. Ideally looking for this stage to be finished by Friday night (roughly 24hrs after this goes up), so get to posting!
Also here's some quick blurbs on other discussed moves that have been left off the list:
Required: Grass STAB (Giga Drain/Energy Ball/Leaf Storm), Poison STAB (Sludge Bomb/Wave), Ground Coverage (Scorching Sands/Earth Power), Toxic, Leech Seed
Optional: Apple Acid, Meteor Beam, Fire Coverage (Mystical Fire/Flamethrower/Fire Blast), Will-O-Wisp
Utility as a whole has had a pretty mixed bag of low impact moves that don't really need be accounted for this stage specifically (Foul Play, Super Fang, hell even Mortal Spin). Beyond the pretty universally assumed/supported Toxic & Leech Seed, the only two moves that the TLT and I feel would have tangible Stat impact were Will-O-Wisp and Knock Off. A fast burn spreader that is itself a status absorber is potent enough of a combo that it should have an impact on our total BSR, but will likely only have minor penalties. Unless anyone has any major objections, all other proposed utility besides the 3 in the above list can wait until Movesets for further discussion.
Knock Off has been HEAVILY discussed in all channels of the process, with well reasoned support from both sides. While I myself tend to agree with the crowd of allowing knock with heavy penalties on the basis of freeing options instead of restricting them, I can't deny that the pushback toward it has been high, a fair bit higher than usual for a CAP process. With Apple Acid also now in the mix of things, which despite its own controversy I think will be a better solution for the ailing defensive set than Knock could do, as it leans better into the more offensive nature of Eternatus. For these reasons, as well as the moves controversy, I think we'll be better off leaving Knock Off behind this time.
Apple Acid & Meteor Beam are the last major items on the docket that need sorting out before moving to Stats. For the moment I've elected to put them both in Optional. There was little consensus on whether or not Meteor Beam should be Required or not, and given how high impact the combo of Acid + Meteor would be on 38's Stat limits leads me to believe leaving them both in Optional is the safest path forward. I'd also considered putting them in a mutually exclusive "Choose Only One" category, but I don't think we need to necessarily restrict them in this way.
On the topic of Apple Acid v Matcha Gotcha, I went for Apple Acid due to its notably higher support as well as impact on Stat Limits, as well as for actually moving the needle on making 38's Grass STAB function more akin to Dynamax Cannon, which I feel Matcha does not really accomplish. Matcha's not a bad move by any means, but I very much do not want to overload this thing with signature moves as CAP loves to do, so I'd like for us to focus on the option with the greater effect on the mon's build.
I'd also be willing to put Meteor Beam in a "Choose Only One" category with other quirky setup options but frankly there wasn't enough mention or consensus on what those moves could even be since most just want Meteor itself (and no, Charge Beam isn't in consideration, see below). If anyone has something to say regarding viable Meteor Beam alternatives before we wrap up, please do so now. Ideally looking for this stage to be finished by Friday night (roughly 24hrs after this goes up), so get to posting!
Also here's some quick blurbs on other discussed moves that have been left off the list:
Salt Cure: Hardest no of my life dawg. Cure's one of the most freely clickable moves in the game, and heavily warps all movesets to want to make room for it. We already have enough problems with the fat, status immune original user of this move in the metagame, let's not add it to another fat status immune guy that's ALSO fast, please and thanks, lol.
Paralysis: While Burn has had support as an off-Poison status to target some of our more annoying matchups, the same support has not been given toward Paralysis. CAP is already a yellow magic infested hellhole according to some (it's me, I'm some), and adding another fast para spreader that is itself immune to it just sounds like needless torment on user's psyches. Also it doesn't actually move the needle in the hard matchup category like Burn does, so it really does not have anything going for it.
Cosmic Power: Support for including this set in Defining Moves was practically non-existent, so any discussion on it will be waiting until Movesets proper.
Charge Beam: Any resemblance this move has to being a Meteor Beam alternative are entirely superficial. It is genuinely one of the worst moves of all time from my experience. Weak, imperfect accuracy, not-guaranteed Boosting is just not at all the kind of speed 38 should be running at lol. If we're gonna emulate Meteor in other ways it needs to actually y'know, be kind of viable, which Charge Beam is NOT.
Paralysis: While Burn has had support as an off-Poison status to target some of our more annoying matchups, the same support has not been given toward Paralysis. CAP is already a yellow magic infested hellhole according to some (it's me, I'm some), and adding another fast para spreader that is itself immune to it just sounds like needless torment on user's psyches. Also it doesn't actually move the needle in the hard matchup category like Burn does, so it really does not have anything going for it.
Cosmic Power: Support for including this set in Defining Moves was practically non-existent, so any discussion on it will be waiting until Movesets proper.
Charge Beam: Any resemblance this move has to being a Meteor Beam alternative are entirely superficial. It is genuinely one of the worst moves of all time from my experience. Weak, imperfect accuracy, not-guaranteed Boosting is just not at all the kind of speed 38 should be running at lol. If we're gonna emulate Meteor in other ways it needs to actually y'know, be kind of viable, which Charge Beam is NOT.
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Ngl I feel like 90% of the reason people voted for special bias was specifically for beam, and the lack of a beam analogue on the physical side. I truly have no idea how we’d emulate meteor beam eternatus without this move. What alternatives are even available? I think it is an easy required addition - I just can’t see for the life of me why a stat submitter would opt not to include it.
Cosmic power is neat and affects calcs, it can be optional.
Cosmic power is neat and affects calcs, it can be optional.
I agree with adding Meteor Beam as a required option, I'll be a little surprised if we get a single submission that doesn't include it.
Ngl I feel like there may be a solid way to emulate Meteor Beam on Eternatus in Solar Beam. Solar Beam may not provide the same boost as Meteor Beam, but it gets STAB and easier repeat use with potential help from 
. I think this is a relatively decent comparison, considering we can also use Power Herb on it like Meteor Beam.
. I think this is a relatively decent comparison, considering we can also use Power Herb on it like Meteor Beam.I agree with making meteor beam required because it seems most people here envision the Mon with it but I also agree that it should be mutually exclusive with Apple acid bc it creates much more volatile situations for offensive sets and for that reason pushes the offensive set even further compared to the low powerlevel of the defensive set.
On that note I completely disagree that a defensive set benefits more from Apple acid than an offensive one. Having a super effective coverage move to back up the Special defense drop is a lot more powerful than having the bulk to try and use the drop several times at least with an offensive type like grass that is comparably so much less spammable than Fire Lash or Razor Shell or whatever other moves people would try to liken this to.
All that leads me to the opinion that if you wanna make the addition of apple acid you need to seriously restrict the volatility of the offensive set, which means cutting meteor beam and any other additional coverage except the guaranteed ground.
Also Late pitch but if we wanna entertain signatures I think infernal parade might actually be pretty good here.
It’s not super hard to status half the opposing team even without the 30% burn chance and the native 30% sludge poison you have poison heal mons and a million status spreaders in the meta and once the move is boosted to 130 bp it basically performs as ca. 85 bp stab move that hits most of the tier Neutrally and can spread burn. It targets several of the most annoying switch ins and actually has very solid two move coverage on top of allowing for status fishing on a bulkier set. We also pack Super effective coverage for two of the best ghost type checks. Given the overall lower bp of our stab and ground coverage I think it would slot in really well as conditional pseudo stab.
On that note I completely disagree that a defensive set benefits more from Apple acid than an offensive one. Having a super effective coverage move to back up the Special defense drop is a lot more powerful than having the bulk to try and use the drop several times at least with an offensive type like grass that is comparably so much less spammable than Fire Lash or Razor Shell or whatever other moves people would try to liken this to.
All that leads me to the opinion that if you wanna make the addition of apple acid you need to seriously restrict the volatility of the offensive set, which means cutting meteor beam and any other additional coverage except the guaranteed ground.
Also Late pitch but if we wanna entertain signatures I think infernal parade might actually be pretty good here.
It’s not super hard to status half the opposing team even without the 30% burn chance and the native 30% sludge poison you have poison heal mons and a million status spreaders in the meta and once the move is boosted to 130 bp it basically performs as ca. 85 bp stab move that hits most of the tier Neutrally and can spread burn. It targets several of the most annoying switch ins and actually has very solid two move coverage on top of allowing for status fishing on a bulkier set. We also pack Super effective coverage for two of the best ghost type checks. Given the overall lower bp of our stab and ground coverage I think it would slot in really well as conditional pseudo stab.
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Meteor Beam's my favorite option and if it was optional I'd expect it to win anyways, but just to throw out an extra idea out there: Boomburst + Throat Spray? Or any of the non-signature sound moves that could provide coverage (like Overdrive vs Flying) or utility (like Psychic Noise). Throat Spray is the closest to working like Power Herb + Meteor Beam, and outside of specifically Cosmic Power sets you'll usually only get one boost either way. Boomburst being a more spammable nuke is a major difference, but it could maybe function as a pseudo-stab since it's good at hitting for neutral for a Dynamax Cannon analogue. Flower Veil being our ability adds opportunity cost to Tera Normal, since we lose our ability to absorb status and block stat drops.
If it wasn't dexited, I would've suggested Rototiller, but Throat Spray is the 3rd best option I can think of.
If it wasn't dexited, I would've suggested Rototiller, but Throat Spray is the 3rd best option I can think of.
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i like the idea of throat spray being our power herb setup equivalent, that's a pretty neat thing, but i'm not really confident in boomburst as our option. i'll go ahead and break down every sound move and why i think they do or don't work here:
- growl, howl, supersonic, screech, snore, confide, disarming voice, dragon cheer, round: all of these are useless and uninteresting. just getting it out of the way
sing: would actually be a very interesting option; the potency of the status and the way the old sleep clause mod worked would sort of replicate the "does something very strong right away, then becomes a dead slot in most cases but can still be useful in certain scenarios" feature of meteor beam. unfortunately for this option (but very fortunately for competitiveness and balance), sleep moves are banned. grasswhistle also falls under this but it's dexited
perish song: actively detrimental to setup
parting shot: even more detrimental to setup because you don't even get to stay in, and it's anti-concept for a dozen other reasons
relic song: even aside from this being banned as a legendary signature, no viable pokemon should have the capacity to put multiple mons to sleep in singles ever
torch song: defeats the purpose of single-time setup entirely
chatter: doesn't exist, and would be a pretty crappy option if it did
heal bell: this would literally never be used for this purpose, and this mon isn't supposed to have a support focus anyway
clangorous soul: too strong of an effect, not even a single-use click on a mon with access to reliable recovery, and most importantly we already did this exact thing with a whole process around it
echoed voice: conceptually this is a cute little way to mirror the damage scaling of the metronome sets eternatus used to use, but it's extremely underpowered to start with, replicates a role that isn't the one we're going for, and actively encourages spamming it rather than discouraging clicking it again as meteor beam does
boomburst: on the face of it, it seems to be an interesting option by merit of being a sort of strong-neutral-spammable move like dmax cannon, but dmax cannon isn't the boosting move on setup sets. this move is too damn strong and too clickable after the setup has been burned
sparkling aria/alluring voice: i think these moves would just be too good for our setup-set purposes. they're too spammable after throat spray to accurately replicate meteor beam's limited clickability. i also don't like how sparkling aria can accidentally undo the progress of other team members when we're trying to have this mon be a consistent progress-maker
overdrive: very similar to the above. a little less spammable due to grounds existing, but not enough for me to say maybe to it
uproar: the upside to this is that it replicates meteor beam pretty well in that, 99% of the time, you're only going to be clicking it once. no coverage merit, no positive effect, average base power, and the lock-in means that, after you burn the throat spray, you're never selecting this move unless you're under some sort of ridiculous niche edge case. the downside is that you actually have to click it once. meteor beam's first click tends to either ohko something or translate directly into a 2hko and you can start being threatening immediately after, but uproar's first click locks you into uproar for the next 2 turns as well, which is a free, wax-sealed, hand-delivered, gilded invitation for a normal resist to come in and set up or just kill you
eerie spell/psychic noise: i vibe with these moves as utility options, and i think it would be cool to see them. psynoise can sort of replicate the permanent-progress and "don't get into long 1v1s with me" features of toxic, and eerie spell draws a neat parallel to pressure. but that's also exactly the issue i have with them being our meteor beam: they're way too useful, too clickable, and they'd be used on stuff that isn't setup sets, probably even more than they'd be used on setup. you don't see meteor beam going around on utility sets on eternatus. so even though i'd be interested in these moves being in the mon's moveset, i don't think they should be our meteor beam equivalent
roar: it's a neat idea, but again i think it's too useful outside of setup to be our meteor beam equivalent, and i doubt it'd be used for setup much either
hyper voice/bug buzz: these are similar to sparkling aria, alluring voice, and overdrive as standard-power attacks, but they're a lot less likely to be clicked after the setup turn because the offensive matchups are so much worse. could be worth considering
snarl: an interesting option. the low base power makes it not very clickable on setup sets after the first time, while the immediate effect can be pretty strong when combined with the +1 from throat spray. i have misgivings about this being used on utility sets more than for setup, though, or possibly just not being used at all. it could end up turning setup from a main set into a gimmick, and i don't want that
noble roar: similar benefits to snarl, but similar drawbacks as well. the effect works on both sides of the attacking spectrum which is a big improvement over snarl, and the lack of damage means it won't be run on utility sets or anything outside of setup, but the lack of damage also means there's the risk of it simply not being run
clanging scales: stacking defense debuffs and the limited offensive prowess of non-stab dragon would discourage clicks after throat spray, while the high base power would semi-replicate the ability of meteor beam to be a big-damage click straight out the gate. the major issue i see here is that the initial defense drop really cuts into our longevity and ability to stay in, which is a major detriment that meteor beam doesn't have
there's only one i really vibe with enough to put it here, and that's metal sound. it trades off the immediate damage of meteor beam for being an incredible switch-forcing tool, is a purely offensive threat that doesn't risk being run outside of setup, and will probably not be clicked after the first time. i'm still not entirely sure about the whole being a non-damaging move thing, and the accuracy gives me pause, but if we're doing a throat spray move as our meteor beam i think this is probably the way to go
Required: Grass STAB (Giga Drain/Energy Ball/Leaf Storm), Poison STAB (Sludge Bomb/Wave), Ground Coverage (Scorching Sands/Earth Power), Meteor Beam, Leech Seed, Toxic, 50% Recovery
Optional: Apple Acid, Fire Coverage (Mystical Fire/Flamethrower/Fire Blast), Will-O-Wisp
Alright gang, here's our final moves list for Defining Moves! Only change from my previous post is that Meteor Beam has moved to Required as that received the most support. The few other suggested alternatives were not particularly convincing, so this is what we'll be working with going forward. The start of this stage was quite rocky, but I think we've successfully navigated the sea of uncertainness and reached a conclusion I am very satisfied with. Not much else to say so let's keep this short and sweet, handing this post over to Spammernoob for their final say, and then we'll be moving swiftly along into CAP 38's Stat Stages. See ya there cappers!
Optional: Apple Acid, Fire Coverage (Mystical Fire/Flamethrower/Fire Blast), Will-O-Wisp
Alright gang, here's our final moves list for Defining Moves! Only change from my previous post is that Meteor Beam has moved to Required as that received the most support. The few other suggested alternatives were not particularly convincing, so this is what we'll be working with going forward. The start of this stage was quite rocky, but I think we've successfully navigated the sea of uncertainness and reached a conclusion I am very satisfied with. Not much else to say so let's keep this short and sweet, handing this post over to Spammernoob for their final say, and then we'll be moving swiftly along into CAP 38's Stat Stages. See ya there cappers!
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Nice list.
Go Apple Acid.
Go Apple Acid.
- Status