Too late, Ground has been locked in as primary coverage.
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CAP 38 - Part 6 - Defining Moves
- Thread starter Spammernoob
- Start date
- Status
I'll list out Eternatus' utility and setup options for reference.
It feels like most utility options do not really affect stat stages. The one exception I've seen discussed is Will-o-Wisp; phazing, Taunt/Encore, Toxic/Toxic Spikes, Mortal Spin, trapping all feel like things that don't really affect stats. I could see a budget of 3 (? maybe a different number?) useful utility options, with additional utility incurring some BSR penalty (I assume useless utility wouldn't be included in 1.0) but I haven't thought about it much.
Regarding setup, it's difficult to find a good analogue for physical. One of the big draws of Meteor Beam is the tempo of attacking while setting up, which does not really apply to any of the options I've seen floated around for physical (Gravity, Focus Energy, Hone Claws). Maybe this aspect isn't the most important to recreate? There could be other avenues for making CAP38 fit on HO structures (which is the essence of Meteor Beam Eternatus vs. LO 3a Eternatus) so maybe we can think about it from that angle instead.
EDIT: I will note that, as far as HO goes, it will be difficult to compete with Chuggalong or Iron Moth. I can see maybe fitting on a different structure than Strata + Chugg/Moth though. Cresc-resistant HO mon is always valuable (see Lum Caribolt) and there's probably some interesting role compression we can pull off here. I am not an HO builder though.
Finally, I mostly agree with spoo's thoughts on setup / Knock Off. I feel like I will have more to say after this poll ends (which is more contentious than I expected).
Agility
Dragon Dance
Meteor Beam
Cosmic Power
Dragon Dance
Meteor Beam
Cosmic Power
Toxic
Toxic Spikes
Dragon Tail
Fire Spin (?)
Toxic Spikes
Dragon Tail
Fire Spin (?)
Reflect
Light Screen
Sunny Day
Rain Dance
Gravity
Scary Face
Light Screen
Sunny Day
Rain Dance
Gravity
Scary Face
It feels like most utility options do not really affect stat stages. The one exception I've seen discussed is Will-o-Wisp; phazing, Taunt/Encore, Toxic/Toxic Spikes, Mortal Spin, trapping all feel like things that don't really affect stats. I could see a budget of 3 (? maybe a different number?) useful utility options, with additional utility incurring some BSR penalty (I assume useless utility wouldn't be included in 1.0) but I haven't thought about it much.
Regarding setup, it's difficult to find a good analogue for physical. One of the big draws of Meteor Beam is the tempo of attacking while setting up, which does not really apply to any of the options I've seen floated around for physical (Gravity, Focus Energy, Hone Claws). Maybe this aspect isn't the most important to recreate? There could be other avenues for making CAP38 fit on HO structures (which is the essence of Meteor Beam Eternatus vs. LO 3a Eternatus) so maybe we can think about it from that angle instead.
EDIT: I will note that, as far as HO goes, it will be difficult to compete with Chuggalong or Iron Moth. I can see maybe fitting on a different structure than Strata + Chugg/Moth though. Cresc-resistant HO mon is always valuable (see Lum Caribolt) and there's probably some interesting role compression we can pull off here. I am not an HO builder though.
Finally, I mostly agree with spoo's thoughts on setup / Knock Off. I feel like I will have more to say after this poll ends (which is more contentious than I expected).
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Something that seems worth noting is that Eternatus is in a unique role as a dragon type in that it can stay in battle for many turns in a row, clicking strong no drawback 100% accurate moves thanks to Dynamax Cannon.
As a grass/poison type, our options for clicking special grass stab are.. Leaf Storm, Energy Ball, or Giga Drain? Or on the physical side, we have to gamble on hitting Power Whip or chip ourselves down with Wood Hammer, or go for the weak Leaf Blade (and going physical means we have bad poison options too).
I think there’s a very interesting point to be made here for a no-drawback signature 100-120 BP grass stab to emulate Eternatus’s Dynamax Cannon. I know we don’t really do custom moves/abilities anymore, but I think it very much fits with the concept. Without Dmax Cannon, Eternatus would have to be clicking the weak Dragon Pulse or firing off Draco Meteors and then switching.
As a grass/poison type, our options for clicking special grass stab are.. Leaf Storm, Energy Ball, or Giga Drain? Or on the physical side, we have to gamble on hitting Power Whip or chip ourselves down with Wood Hammer, or go for the weak Leaf Blade (and going physical means we have bad poison options too).
I think there’s a very interesting point to be made here for a no-drawback signature 100-120 BP grass stab to emulate Eternatus’s Dynamax Cannon. I know we don’t really do custom moves/abilities anymore, but I think it very much fits with the concept. Without Dmax Cannon, Eternatus would have to be clicking the weak Dragon Pulse or firing off Draco Meteors and then switching.
I'm not sure how I feel about denying mono-fire coverage without a poll or anything; I was pro-ground too but it seems like only fire coverage had a decent case. But what's done is done and the poll is already going forward with the assumption of ground. However, assuming ground changes things. Most notably, we are forced to run either grass stab, fire coverage, or some utility that hasn't been discussed yet, because grass coverage is the only guaranteed thing in our kit that hits
. So there are a few routes forwards:- Deny fire coverage and just always run grass stab. This looks absolutely terrible at first because grass is now the "spammable" move on the 2 move coverage set and grass is not very spammable. We can run grass/poison and get walled by everything, or grass/ground and get walled by flyings and grasses. The way out is toxic. Toxic/Ground/Grass hits everything but
and 
because ground hits the steels and poisons that are immune to toxic with grass being the primary damage dealer that also solves 
and . - Fire/Ground coverage fixes the 2 move set's libra issues by allowing Poison/Fire coverage, which is walled by very little. The support move can be a lot of things after that. Fire/Ground has a lot of freedom because fire is a very solid option and ground is a very solid option, but its advantages over just picking one are limited. Basically the questions we have to ask with this one are "is this necessary" and "is this desirable." The only way that Fire/Ground can be better than either option individually is if either the surprise value is strong, if different sets prefer different coverage by a large margin, or if running both moves simultaneously is both strong and eternatus-like. I'm not sure we hit those three points very well, but that's a post for another time.
- Alternative utility seems limited. Will-o-wisp isn't enough, it cancels lefties which is nice but we still deal 0 damage with poison/ground. Knock off is slightly better but its still pretty bad unless we get a decent attack stat. Leech seed seems nice but isn't enough because rapid spin removes the seeds. Phazing is near-worthless into the most hazard resistant pokemon in the tier unless we go with circle throw. Taunt, encore, mortal spin, and toxic spikes all fail to address the issue fact that we still deal 0 damage to the 'mon that defines the tier. If anybody has a better idea I'd love to hear it
Leech seed affects stats because of the hp/def ratio; it can get tricky with the high hp increasing defensive investment value though.
I feel like 90bp on Leaf Blade / Energy Ball aren't too far off? As long as we tune the stats correctly, I feel like this can work out. There's maybe a world where we steal Ivy Cudgel, but I don't see a pressing need for it at the moment since we can just boost offensive stats by ~10% instead for Leaf Blade (maybe I am missing your point here; correct me if I am).
Alternatively, trust in the Apple Acid / Grav Apple vision...
I think most people agree Ground is better for 3a sets. I guess the question is if Poison/Fire + Toxic/Wisp/Leech is significantly better than, say, Ground/Grass + Toxic/Wisp to warrant the Fire addition. I'm not super sure myself; I used to think Ground/Grass sucked, but utility options do help it hit things better. If you have any thoughts on this, let me know.
I'm pretty sure Poison/Ground is junk, and Poison/Grass obviously has massive issues as well that I'm not sure utility can solve.
Is it time to free Salt Cure?
As long as we're a special attacker, I think Meteor Beam is really decent for us. We have Ground coverage now, so our weaknesses are to
and . Meteor Beam should OHKO venom from a strong SpA stat which is awesome. It should do about 50 to corv which means you can take it out after its been worn down doing its other responsibilities, or vs a Body Press set you should be able to win this 1v1 by using it multiple times- also seems pretty good. This is the feeling of having minimal checks that I'd hope for.Of course there is still plenty of counterplay here- you likely need 4 atks or else you have a hole offensively, you'll be shuffled by arghonaut from full and tera/booster is still around to revenge kill you. You can't afford to be knocked off and you dont necessarily ohko everything at +1. And of course, Meteor Beaming the wrong thing means you're still scared of your main counters.
Now on to the more goofy stuff: I'm not convinced these moves are defining but I'll throw them out there anyway.
The other move I was wondering about was Charge Beam. This is a more unreliable boost that fits better on a set with recovery in my opinion. At the very least, this move is the most damaging option available against Corviknight/Venom- likely a 3hko without any boosts. If an opponent gives you a bunch of turns, you will ramp up, but it doesn't scream power. Charge Beam isnt that good in a vacuum, so it might not see that much use. But its a move that can beat your biggest counters while not really fighting to be first slash on any set. Any OU level threat also would never use Howl, but because Zamazenta is such a stat stick it could previously justify it, and I'm using the same logic here.
Metal Sound is a move that is a sound move, allowing it to have a one-time boost in combination with Throat Spray. It also would massively threaten the target on the turn its used, dropping them by 2- including something like Arghonaut or Equilibra that would possibly want to switch in on a setup turn. This feels like a reach. But I wanted to throw it out there because it is similar to Eternatus having a 1-time use boost and I think its the best option out of the sound moves (gives no coverage, useful effect if it lands, doesnt fight for a main set slot).
For utility, Will-O-Wisp just seems kinda perfect? We are fast, making it a useful addition to teams to pivot into this and neutralize slower mons. Its a bother to our hardest counters- yeah, Wisp isnt killing Corv but it certainly is making it a hell of a lot harder for it to answer teammates where it requires its SE Brave Bird to force them out. Wisp/EP/Grass is pretty annoying to switch into outside of a couple of bothersome fairies from what I can tell. Seems pretty good to me. Ofc all of this is all based on the premise that this mon also has very high SPA and Speed (and all-round stats) to further justify a teamslot.
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I'd have to agree with all the points here, with one emphasis. One of Eternatus's standout characteristics in Ubers is how it boosts. Other then 
,all of it's competition have to take a turn to use a boosting move. Even Calyrex needs to get a KO. But Eternatus can boost while applying damage- and there's almost nothing you can do to stop it.
Meteor Beam, for Eternatus, also exists in a special place. It hits one mon especially hard:
. Ho-oh is otherwise a pretty good counter to Eternatus, having the special bulk and Regenerator to soak up anything it can do. Tailoring our boosting option to especially hit a certain threat is a nice, pro-concept touch. Meteor Beam against is a good example from Pipotchi.
This is one of the main reasons I'm leaning towards Special over Physical bias. Flower Veil may do wonders for a physical attacker, but it can also soak up paralysis for a special set- one of the original points in it's favour. All the physical options, from Hone Claws to Focus Energy, lack the essential inevitability of Eternatus. It's worth repeating here: it will progress, and there's almost nothing you can do to stop it.
But if physical is a must, then on paper Gravity is the best fix I've seen. It sorts out Gunk Shot's low accuracy, brings and down into Ground coverage and prevents the opponent from easily countering the effect. It's also rather repeatable, however, and loses out on the attractive 'one-time boost' that's an integral part of Eternatus's playstyle. If anyone can bring forward a better physical contender, I'd love to see it.
,all of it's competition have to take a turn to use a boosting move. Even Calyrex needs to get a KO. But Eternatus can boost while applying damage- and there's almost nothing you can do to stop it. Meteor Beam, for Eternatus, also exists in a special place. It hits one mon especially hard:
. Ho-oh is otherwise a pretty good counter to Eternatus, having the special bulk and Regenerator to soak up anything it can do. Tailoring our boosting option to especially hit a certain threat is a nice, pro-concept touch. Meteor Beam against is a good example from Pipotchi. This is one of the main reasons I'm leaning towards Special over Physical bias. Flower Veil may do wonders for a physical attacker, but it can also soak up paralysis for a special set- one of the original points in it's favour. All the physical options, from Hone Claws to Focus Energy, lack the essential inevitability of Eternatus. It's worth repeating here: it will progress, and there's almost nothing you can do to stop it.
But if physical is a must, then on paper Gravity is the best fix I've seen. It sorts out Gunk Shot's low accuracy, brings
and down into Ground coverage and prevents the opponent from easily countering the effect. It's also rather repeatable, however, and loses out on the attractive 'one-time boost' that's an integral part of Eternatus's playstyle. If anyone can bring forward a better physical contender, I'd love to see it.
Some utility moves that I think are interesting. With our bias still up in the air, some of my statements here are more conditional than anything; nevertheless, I would like to see where the community stands on these options.
Knock Off: Right off the bat, I will say that if we end up going with a physical bias, Knock Off becomes a strong enough damaging option that it should be rejected. However, on a specially biased build, Pokemon such as Darkrai, Walking Wake, as well as the bulkier Shox provide an interesting blueprint for making it work as utility. However, I still think Knock Off should not be allowed here or at least be burdened with a significant penalty. First of all, it's a universal utility option that can always output value, which is a bit different from Eternatus’ own more limited functionality. It does solve a lot of the concerns about defensive sets in one go. That is not my biggest concern, though. spammernoob, I think, brought up that Knock Off encourages a playstyle with Heavy-Duty Boots and heavy switching, which plays quite differently mechanically from Eternatus’ own best functioning in staying in with some of its sets. One of our goals here is to enable a wider variety of items on sets, which unfortunately I think Knock Off takes us further away from by disproportionately rewarding the Boots set in a hazards-heavy metagame. One way I think this can be built around is by making the defensive 2A + Knock sets low-powered enough that even with Boots they are not always preferred. This seems like a difficult balance to strike, on top of the possibility of some weird admixture set emerging. Like Eternatus, we also have tools against anti-longevity (Toxic immunity in Eternatus’ case, blanket immunity to status and stat drops in ours), so I think it’s worthwhile to explore the option of building up there rather than solving a lot of issues with good ol’ Knock Off.
Trick: Now this might not be powerful enough to merit anything more than a minor consideration, but Choice items and Black Sludge are items we can run to some level of viability, and this move might see use with those (as seen in the examples of
, 
for Choice, and 
for Black Sludge). Much like how OG Eternatus is forced to run Eject Pack + Draco Meteor as its only pivoting option, I think it would be nice to translate that aspect of unconventional execution over to the task of item removal. The jank set lover in me also hopes for something like itemless Trick after a Meteor Beam or something emerging as a viable set, but even I have to admit that is completely ass. In any case, there is at least some viable angle to it, so I’d like this to be addressed… or automatically accepted as optional or denied.
Mortal Spin: This is putting 38 right back in the hazards game, which is a huge role-defining decision. However, there are some interesting angles here, especially with how the move helps the defensive sets while still maintaining Eternatus’ identity of spreading poison. The first consideration I would want is that we should also allow Steel-types to become reliable spinblockers to it, lest we somehow introduce a really good spinner in the tier when Eternatus is not a spinner at all. My head is at denying Fire-coverage completely in a “Choose One” way if we do allow Mortal Spin, leaving Corviknight and Equilibra as decent enough blockers (the latter is impacted if we go physical, with neutral Grass STAB). I think an additional consideration for bulk could also be merited here, as in with a small penalty to not make the defensive spinner set too valuable. That might be a bit of polljumping, I admit, but this is a move that I nevertheless think should be considered for the Defining list.
Salt Cure: Let us steal Garganacl’s whole schtick while we’re at it, eh? But in all seriousness, I think while it solves a lot of the defensive sets’ viability concerns, it is too centralizing to be a healthy option given our aim of multiple viable sets. Curious to see if anyone has anything to say to the contrary, though.
Will-O-Wisp: I support it, but I’m not sure what the penalties for it would look like. Also, it would be funny to make the third Burn spreading CAP in a row.
Taunt/Encore: Taunt I think has some non-broken use case but is still pretty universally strong, a hard “no” for Encore. Please.
Knock Off: Right off the bat, I will say that if we end up going with a physical bias, Knock Off becomes a strong enough damaging option that it should be rejected. However, on a specially biased build, Pokemon such as Darkrai, Walking Wake, as well as the bulkier Shox provide an interesting blueprint for making it work as utility. However, I still think Knock Off should not be allowed here or at least be burdened with a significant penalty. First of all, it's a universal utility option that can always output value, which is a bit different from Eternatus’ own more limited functionality. It does solve a lot of the concerns about defensive sets in one go. That is not my biggest concern, though. spammernoob, I think, brought up that Knock Off encourages a playstyle with Heavy-Duty Boots and heavy switching, which plays quite differently mechanically from Eternatus’ own best functioning in staying in with some of its sets. One of our goals here is to enable a wider variety of items on sets, which unfortunately I think Knock Off takes us further away from by disproportionately rewarding the Boots set in a hazards-heavy metagame. One way I think this can be built around is by making the defensive 2A + Knock sets low-powered enough that even with Boots they are not always preferred. This seems like a difficult balance to strike, on top of the possibility of some weird admixture set emerging. Like Eternatus, we also have tools against anti-longevity (Toxic immunity in Eternatus’ case, blanket immunity to status and stat drops in ours), so I think it’s worthwhile to explore the option of building up there rather than solving a lot of issues with good ol’ Knock Off.
Trick: Now this might not be powerful enough to merit anything more than a minor consideration, but Choice items and Black Sludge are items we can run to some level of viability, and this move might see use with those (as seen in the examples of
, for Choice, and for Black Sludge). Much like how OG Eternatus is forced to run Eject Pack + Draco Meteor as its only pivoting option, I think it would be nice to translate that aspect of unconventional execution over to the task of item removal. The jank set lover in me also hopes for something like itemless Trick after a Meteor Beam or something emerging as a viable set, but even I have to admit that is completely ass. In any case, there is at least some viable angle to it, so I’d like this to be addressed… or automatically accepted as optional or denied.Mortal Spin: This is putting 38 right back in the hazards game, which is a huge role-defining decision. However, there are some interesting angles here, especially with how the move helps the defensive sets while still maintaining Eternatus’ identity of spreading poison. The first consideration I would want is that we should also allow Steel-types to become reliable spinblockers to it, lest we somehow introduce a really good spinner in the tier when Eternatus is not a spinner at all. My head is at denying Fire-coverage completely in a “Choose One” way if we do allow Mortal Spin, leaving Corviknight and Equilibra as decent enough blockers (the latter is impacted if we go physical, with neutral Grass STAB). I think an additional consideration for bulk could also be merited here, as in with a small penalty to not make the defensive spinner set too valuable. That might be a bit of polljumping, I admit, but this is a move that I nevertheless think should be considered for the Defining list.
Salt Cure: Let us steal Garganacl’s whole schtick while we’re at it, eh? But in all seriousness, I think while it solves a lot of the defensive sets’ viability concerns, it is too centralizing to be a healthy option given our aim of multiple viable sets. Curious to see if anyone has anything to say to the contrary, though.
Will-O-Wisp: I support it, but I’m not sure what the penalties for it would look like. Also, it would be funny to make the third Burn spreading CAP in a row.
Taunt/Encore: Taunt I think has some non-broken use case but is still pretty universally strong, a hard “no” for Encore. Please.
I do not think CAP 38 should have any utility options outside of those afforded to it by its type. Eternatus gets Dragon Tail, Toxic, and Toxic Spikes, so CAP 38 should get Leech Seed, Toxic, and Toxic Spikes. Adding any other utility is just not properly emulating the mon. The only utility move in the ones listed by Guingil above that I have even minor interest in is Mortal Spin because of that typed connection. Knock Off should be a 100% no. Trick, Taunt, and Encore should all be 100% no. Status outside of Poison (Wisp) should be a 100% no. These moves are simply outside of the very defined utility bracket that Eternatus has (which is very small). Eternatus has very few weaknesses, but perhaps the most defining of them is its lacking utility movepool. Giving CAP 38 access to such general utility options like we often do every CAP would be a mistake.
The only defining moves that I think should be allowed that actually impact stat subs are Mortal Spin and Fire-type coverage.
The only defining moves that I think should be allowed that actually impact stat subs are Mortal Spin and Fire-type coverage.
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Gonna echo spoo sentiment, I’m not against having more constraints before going into stats, or even against deciding bias before stats, but I am against deciding it before enough moves have been discussed. It feels like not enough information. I voted anyway, and I imagine it can’t be changed, but I’m putting it out there.
I mostly wanted to give my opinion on knock off, since that trigger word has been used so much.
Knock off would give us incredible utility and an amazingly synergistic tool for progress making with our typing and ability, allowing us to severely hurt even mons that we don’t threaten, regardless of our offensive power, and being very spammable due to our likely high opportunities for switch in. It would almost guarantee viability!
This is why I am so against it and think it should absolutely not be included in any movepool of our mini-uber. It seems to be totally against the way that Eternatus is actually played, making progress offensively through damaging moves, on its own terms rather than utility that lets your hazards do work for the rest of your team. It would be an easy way out, making CAP38 a mon with an obvious use in the CAP metagame, while not fulfilling what Eternatus stands for.
I’ll develop this more if I have time but I urge people to reconsider knock off
I mostly wanted to give my opinion on knock off, since that trigger word has been used so much.
Knock off would give us incredible utility and an amazingly synergistic tool for progress making with our typing and ability, allowing us to severely hurt even mons that we don’t threaten, regardless of our offensive power, and being very spammable due to our likely high opportunities for switch in. It would almost guarantee viability!
This is why I am so against it and think it should absolutely not be included in any movepool of our mini-uber. It seems to be totally against the way that Eternatus is actually played, making progress offensively through damaging moves, on its own terms rather than utility that lets your hazards do work for the rest of your team. It would be an easy way out, making CAP38 a mon with an obvious use in the CAP metagame, while not fulfilling what Eternatus stands for.
I’ll develop this more if I have time but I urge people to reconsider knock off
Hi, just wanted to check back after the poll. We have decided CAP38 will have Special Bias.
(I will assume these are "Required")
Acid Spray
Sludge Bomb
Toxic OR Toxic Spikes
Giga Drain
Leaf Storm
Energy Ball
Earth Power
Right now, our optional moves are Fire Coverage: Flamethrower, Fire Blast
Anyways, some thoughts to focus our discussion on:
1. Are there any non-assumed STAB options worth discussing?
2. Are there any other coverage options that are worth bringing up here? Other Ground / Fire options, or other coverage types?
3. How should we handle utility here? Are there any utility options that are important to nail down before stats, or can they wait for movesets?
4. Should Meteor Beam be a required move or an optional move? Are there any alternative setup options?
Hopefully that covers everything. Zetalz will hopefully fill in anything I missed when he is available.
(I will assume these are "Required")
Acid Spray
Sludge Bomb
Toxic OR Toxic Spikes
Giga Drain
Leaf Storm
Energy Ball
Earth Power
Right now, our optional moves are Fire Coverage: Flamethrower, Fire Blast
Anyways, some thoughts to focus our discussion on:
1. Are there any non-assumed STAB options worth discussing?
2. Are there any other coverage options that are worth bringing up here? Other Ground / Fire options, or other coverage types?
3. How should we handle utility here? Are there any utility options that are important to nail down before stats, or can they wait for movesets?
4. Should Meteor Beam be a required move or an optional move? Are there any alternative setup options?
Hopefully that covers everything. Zetalz will hopefully fill in anything I missed when he is available.
1. Off bias coverage could help however most likely earth power will be good although scorching sands could also provide some value
2. With ground being the main coverage I still do not like the idea of dual coverage because cap 38 still needs to have stuff it cannot hit
3. Utility should be an weird setup move that doesn't define it but can be used as an option, another utility that should be considered is a recovery move like Recover, Strength Sap, etc. because eternatus itself has one of these non attacking recovery moves. Likewise as Guingil said about specific utility moves, some of them are too centralizing to be considered however I do see taunt being a decent option to help against a few checks
4. I think Meteor beam should be an optional move here due to the fact that there could be better options for it's setup that are just as weird and wacky as meteor beam however I would not mind it if cap 38 got meteor beam as it could prove helpful neutral or SE coverage into threats like corv venom and obliteryx.
Just a blurb for me here to hopefully to help continue guiding this process so we can choose the best moveset possible while still constraining cap 38 in some way. So as far as moves go I'm mostly behind: Taunt, Meteor Beam, Recover or Synthesis, and Scorching Sands so far as potential move options for cap 38 due to the new bias. Likewise Apple Acid also could work as a sort of dynamax cannon as I've seen argued so I see it working somewhat.
2. With ground being the main coverage I still do not like the idea of dual coverage because cap 38 still needs to have stuff it cannot hit
3. Utility should be an weird setup move that doesn't define it but can be used as an option, another utility that should be considered is a recovery move like Recover, Strength Sap, etc. because eternatus itself has one of these non attacking recovery moves. Likewise as Guingil said about specific utility moves, some of them are too centralizing to be considered however I do see taunt being a decent option to help against a few checks
4. I think Meteor beam should be an optional move here due to the fact that there could be better options for it's setup that are just as weird and wacky as meteor beam however I would not mind it if cap 38 got meteor beam as it could prove helpful neutral or SE coverage into threats like corv venom and obliteryx.
Just a blurb for me here to hopefully to help continue guiding this process so we can choose the best moveset possible while still constraining cap 38 in some way. So as far as moves go I'm mostly behind: Taunt, Meteor Beam, Recover or Synthesis, and Scorching Sands so far as potential move options for cap 38 due to the new bias. Likewise Apple Acid also could work as a sort of dynamax cannon as I've seen argued so I see it working somewhat.
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have we considered electro shot in place of meteor beam? or is that a banned move since its currently only on archaludon? or are we using meteor beam specfically to emulate eternatus? It does the same thing as meteor beam
Electro Shot is completely off the table as it has far more impact on both the CAP and on the meta. Just by having Electro Shot available suddenly warps discussion into being Rain-centric, and has far reaching ramifications for the meta regardless of however else the mon turns out. E-Shot is a move you need to carefully build around from the get-go, it's not something to be added in halfway through.
Oh,my bad I forgot about the rain interaction. But meteor beam does seem like a great idea regardless. though.
I want to bring some attention to Synthesis as a potential utility option that we should be keeping wary about. It would allow us to increase our staying power with consistent recovery, a huge pro that has some notable implications on the meta. Another important question relates to Leech Seed; do we think 38 may be capable of using this move well? Perhaps Grass Knot is another option to be checking out? Also, seeing as Ground coverage is in, we could pull shenanigans with setup in Spikes (perhaps to go with Toxic Spikes?) Anyway, this has been me bringing up some notable utility that goes well with the assumed moves, and I shall cyall later.
Acid Spray
Sludge Bomb
Toxic OR Toxic Spikes
Giga Drain
Leaf Storm
Energy Ball
Earth Power
EDIT: Out of all of these, I think Synthesis and Spikes most deserve penalties (albeit small ones), to which I can see multiple arguments
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There was a small discussion about it already, but I'd like to put my support in for Apple Acid given our special bias. It's no secret that our stabs are significantly less spammable than Eternatus's Dynamax Cannon. The plethora of Grass resists make Grass stab a tough click at times, and Apple Acid's Spdef drops makes it a consistent progress option.
Wouldn't be opposed to a small SS penalty for it.
Given that most of the assumed STAB options have been formalized thanks to deciding down on the special bias I think there is only two moves worth discussing besides what has already been assumed, and those are Apple Acid and Matcha Gotcha. The latter is a move that still gives me sequels from Sinistcha in Champions VGC ladder but I think its still worth discussing given its a strong stab that spreads status on poison resists, but other than that im not a fan of. Apple Acid is more interesting since it works like pseudo set-up with how its able to wear down opposing mons with the stat drops, and out of the two I think its the one that has the most potential. Regardless I think we need to decide right now if we should entertain the idea of including these moves, as both are strong enough to warrant heavy BSR penalties later on.
I'd say maybe Rock (hits Kyurem or Snaelstrom) or Water (Hits Ramnarok, Equilibra, Gliscor) if really are looking for extra coverage options but I think Ground / Fire already cover enough.
Leech Seed, Toxic and Toxic Spikes. That's literally everything we should give this thing. Eternatus doesn't have any options besides the same poison utlity and Dragon Tail. We made it clear very early on that our utility should only be stuff the mayority of pokémon of these typing get and thus we shouldn't have anything else to distract us.
With our current tools I think we can afford to have it as optional move that doesn't really alter our stats or movepool much, since there's a lot of potential for us to explore with the move but also a lot of avenues we could explore.
A couple of moves I actually wanted to raise up as potential options would be stuff like Growth / Work Up. I raise work up mostly since I can see it as a workable setup option akin to how Zamazenta uses Howl as a setup option in a couple of sets that I think we could replicate. Growth is a bit more interesting, as if in sun we essentially get a nasty plot. I can admit that it is a potentially volatile option, but I do think there's a lot of potential for exploring the move on a mon that is not a chlorophyll sweeper but instead just a generally fast Pokemon.
Quick-post to do some minor housekeeping that got lost in the bustle of my busy IRL last couple days.
50% Recovery will be on the Required Moves list by default, so semantics on things like Recover v Roost v Synth or whatever can be had during Movesets. I've seen Strength Sap mentioned a few times on the discord but given how high impact that move is and how it distances us from Etern's build I'm inclined to just leave it off the table. If you want to make a case for it you can, but it feels like a major distraction to me.
Been some good talk about utility so far which I'd like to see further expanded. In particular I want to see more discussion on Status moves (Mortal Spin included), and would like more input on Knock Off specifically for those who haven't given their 2 cents yet. Even with our Special bias it's very much the "nuclear utility" option, so the bar for its inclusion will be quite high here. There's probably enough open dissent towards it already to leave it off already but doesn't hurt to have a few more voices in the mix. So far sentiment is veering toward limiting utility to assumed moves only, but that could change over the coming days so I'm holding off an making any calls about utility limits for the moment.
Okie that's it. I'll chime back in either periodically or when we're close to wrapping up, aiming to get this stage finished before the end of the weekend.
50% Recovery will be on the Required Moves list by default, so semantics on things like Recover v Roost v Synth or whatever can be had during Movesets. I've seen Strength Sap mentioned a few times on the discord but given how high impact that move is and how it distances us from Etern's build I'm inclined to just leave it off the table. If you want to make a case for it you can, but it feels like a major distraction to me.
Been some good talk about utility so far which I'd like to see further expanded. In particular I want to see more discussion on Status moves (Mortal Spin included), and would like more input on Knock Off specifically for those who haven't given their 2 cents yet. Even with our Special bias it's very much the "nuclear utility" option, so the bar for its inclusion will be quite high here. There's probably enough open dissent towards it already to leave it off already but doesn't hurt to have a few more voices in the mix. So far sentiment is veering toward limiting utility to assumed moves only, but that could change over the coming days so I'm holding off an making any calls about utility limits for the moment.
Okie that's it. I'll chime back in either periodically or when we're close to wrapping up, aiming to get this stage finished before the end of the weekend.
Utility Moves like WoW/Taunt/Encore/Trick/etc. - No. I agree with others on this. Eternatus has a tiny utility movepool.
Knock Off - No. Eternatus does not have a utility move of this impact. I agree that knock should be 100% off the table.
Toxic/Toxic Spikes - Assumed moves says either or but I think CAP 38 should get both because Eternatus has both.
Mortal Spin/Leech Seed - Should only get one of the two utility moves to match Etern's Dragon Tail access. Don't care which of the two is picked if it's restricted to one of them.
Apple Acid/Matcha Gotcha - Should only get one of the two. Both help ease the stat stage to emulate Etern. I am much more a fan of Apple Acid due to it helping CAP 38's Grass STAB be as spammable as Etern's DMax Cannon.
Meteor Beam - honestly think it should be required.
Knock Off - No. Eternatus does not have a utility move of this impact. I agree that knock should be 100% off the table.
Toxic/Toxic Spikes - Assumed moves says either or but I think CAP 38 should get both because Eternatus has both.
Mortal Spin/Leech Seed - Should only get one of the two utility moves to match Etern's Dragon Tail access. Don't care which of the two is picked if it's restricted to one of them.
Apple Acid/Matcha Gotcha - Should only get one of the two. Both help ease the stat stage to emulate Etern. I am much more a fan of Apple Acid due to it helping CAP 38's Grass STAB be as spammable as Etern's DMax Cannon.
Meteor Beam - honestly think it should be required.
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Frankly, Leech Seed should be required. Leech Seed is probably the defensive set’s best play against Poison Heal Pokemon, and having that option makes the set a lot more viable.
Mortal Spin I do really like and would love to see it as an optional move. It’s definitely a bit of a departure, but I don’t think it’s too out of the question. It should incur some BSR penalty (or perhaps just a total tankiness penalty) but I think it’s good.
I am very much against Will-O-Wisp or any other status-inducing move that doesn’t cause poison.
Mortal Spin I do really like and would love to see it as an optional move. It’s definitely a bit of a departure, but I don’t think it’s too out of the question. It should incur some BSR penalty (or perhaps just a total tankiness penalty) but I think it’s good.
I am very much against Will-O-Wisp or any other status-inducing move that doesn’t cause poison.
Knock Off was an option I considered during Concept Assessment, as it is one of the utility tools that is comparable to Toxic in Ubers in its broad applicability. However, I think it pushes us in the wrong direction re: playstyle. The goal of a Knock Off user is to remove HDB from its checks, and wear them down over long games via repeated switching via hazards. This doesn't really match how Eternatus uses Toxic, which allows it to force its checks out via Toxic timer in a 1v1. I'd prefer utility options that encourage Eternatus to stay in and trade. Additionally, now that we have secured Ground-type coverage, Knock Off becomes a bit less necessary to get past Pokemon like Slowking-G and Mollux, so I don't think there is a strong argument from viability.
Apple Acid is an interesting tool. On one hand, it improves the spammability of our STAB and eases prediction, which is a major problem we have not addressed yet. Additionally, Apple Acid's ramping damage definitely feels right for emulating Toxic's effect on defensive Eternatus sets, though it puts offensive sets in an awkward spot. The main downside is that, for offensive sets, the immediate output is nerfed due to 80bp; maybe it is fine though, as offensive Eternatus often relies on 2HKOs (Meteor Beam is owned though). I think this is probably worth including and we can see how we feel about it during Stats and Movesets stage.
Anyways, relating to Potatochan's post, there is a 120bp Signature move that we could free here...
Finally, . I'll disagree with Gekokeso a bit in that I don't think we should be restricted to just Poison / Grass-type. In Concept Assessment, we decided that CAP38 would have a limited toolbox of utility, but we didn't really place any hard guidelines on what utility options would be available. The reality is that Toxic is significantly less consistent in CAP than it is in Ubers, so I think it's worth looking at other options.
Leech Seed
Generic Grass utility option that is supported by our Poison typing threatening opposing Grass-types. I think its cool, fits the vibe, and is nice for 1v1ing or occasionally team support (?). Maybe the power level is a bit low? I'm not sure.
Will-o-Wisp
Wisp is an option that works very well with our build (fast, access to Recover, Ground coverage for Fires). Out of the three listed here, it's the only permanent progress option. Tagging Corviknight or Slowking-G with a Burn is definitely nice.
Salt Cure
I think this fits the vibe well in terms of forcing opponents out with passive damage, and has a strong matchup into various Steels, notably Corviknight and Equilibra, which are problematic matchups if we don't have Fire coverage.
Anyways, discussion is ongoing in Discord regarding this now. I'll take some points made by Pipotchi and Gekokeso that I agree with:
I agree with these a lot, and think Apple Acid might be the answer. I don't think there are great options here, and SpDef dropping might be a good path to pseudo-replicate Toxic on Etern.
Also, there are discussions regarding Corrosive Gas, though this feels to me like just Knock Off downgrade.
Apple Acid is an interesting tool. On one hand, it improves the spammability of our STAB and eases prediction, which is a major problem we have not addressed yet. Additionally, Apple Acid's ramping damage definitely feels right for emulating Toxic's effect on defensive Eternatus sets, though it puts offensive sets in an awkward spot. The main downside is that, for offensive sets, the immediate output is nerfed due to 80bp; maybe it is fine though, as offensive Eternatus often relies on 2HKOs (Meteor Beam is owned though). I think this is probably worth including and we can see how we feel about it during Stats and Movesets stage.
Anyways, relating to Potatochan's post, there is a 120bp Signature move that we could free here...
Finally, . I'll disagree with Gekokeso a bit in that I don't think we should be restricted to just Poison / Grass-type. In Concept Assessment, we decided that CAP38 would have a limited toolbox of utility, but we didn't really place any hard guidelines on what utility options would be available. The reality is that Toxic is significantly less consistent in CAP than it is in Ubers, so I think it's worth looking at other options.
Leech Seed
Generic Grass utility option that is supported by our Poison typing threatening opposing Grass-types. I think its cool, fits the vibe, and is nice for 1v1ing or occasionally team support (?). Maybe the power level is a bit low? I'm not sure.
Will-o-Wisp
Wisp is an option that works very well with our build (fast, access to Recover, Ground coverage for Fires). Out of the three listed here, it's the only permanent progress option. Tagging Corviknight or Slowking-G with a Burn is definitely nice.
Salt Cure
I think this fits the vibe well in terms of forcing opponents out with passive damage, and has a strong matchup into various Steels, notably Corviknight and Equilibra, which are problematic matchups if we don't have Fire coverage.
Anyways, discussion is ongoing in Discord regarding this now. I'll take some points made by Pipotchi and Gekokeso that I agree with:
my issue with knock off is, and this is from someone who admittedly has not played ubers so only knows etern from OMs:
it doesnt play how toxic plays. mainly because it doesnt actually deal with mons directly. toxic is a defensive tool that does hurt mons across the length of the game but its also important for winning the 1v1 against stuff that decides to stay in and continue to punch you, recover or boost on you. i cant even compare knock to anything apart from maybe the act of setting up hazards which is the other half to knock off in the gameplan of slowly wearing down checks and counters. and considering one of our hardest counters is a steel flying type that is the most hazard immune mon without an immunity ability to them.. idk. its still a fantastic move but it feels not tailored to this mon or our goal
it doesnt play how toxic plays. mainly because it doesnt actually deal with mons directly. toxic is a defensive tool that does hurt mons across the length of the game but its also important for winning the 1v1 against stuff that decides to stay in and continue to punch you, recover or boost on you. i cant even compare knock to anything apart from maybe the act of setting up hazards which is the other half to knock off in the gameplan of slowly wearing down checks and counters. and considering one of our hardest counters is a steel flying type that is the most hazard immune mon without an immunity ability to them.. idk. its still a fantastic move but it feels not tailored to this mon or our goal
The way I see it etern uses toxic to pressure walls who would usuablly use calm to scare it off
like Lunala and Arceus
Knock really doesn't do that
like Lunala and Arceus
Knock really doesn't do that
Also, there are discussions regarding Corrosive Gas, though this feels to me like just Knock Off downgrade.
Knock Off is the single easiest route to viability for the defensive set. Both Vileplume and Mega Venusaur have run that set extremely often, with the latter often running it on sets that have our primary coverage pairing. Toxic serves 2 purposes on Eternatus, as a way of making permanent progress, and as a way to prevent fat mons from setting up in its face. Knock off does nothing for the latter, as noted above, but is a very potent way of making progress given our STAB combo, as proven by the two grass/poisons above.
I feel like a lot of the hesitance derives from our tendency to give Knock Off to basically every single CAP and then nerf it off, but its a really really potent move. There's no move that can replicate how Toxic impacts defensive Eternatus's matchups, but we can try to replicate both of the above factors. Leech Seed is uncontroversial and forces switches, Knock Off is controversial and has a long term impact. As for the staying in part sure, but like, Toxic just won't work on us like it does on Etern. We've broken some eggs with our typing choice, either we can make an omelet or pivot to the lunch shift. Just give the move a major BSR penalty.
I don't particularly care for dipping into signature moves here. Apple Acid, while letting our defensive set force switches, benefits our offensive set even more. Matcha is good, but like, its just a cranked move. Give it if you want, but I'm very neutral on it.
I'll stare at PS until the perfect answer leaps out at me and then edit it in.
Edit:
I've gone through all of BH. The best not mentioned options I have are Foul Play (defensive set goodness unironically, also lets us beat Rev), and Super Fang. Super Fang didn't work on Shox, but er, maybe it works here? Ruination is better for us, as it means dual stabs defenisve set can do something to Ghold, but its a sig and we don't like to give those out. Easy damage into King/Corv/Etc is still big though. I also think it somehow fits the same head-space as Toxic? I will not explain why.
I feel like a lot of the hesitance derives from our tendency to give Knock Off to basically every single CAP and then nerf it off, but its a really really potent move. There's no move that can replicate how Toxic impacts defensive Eternatus's matchups, but we can try to replicate both of the above factors. Leech Seed is uncontroversial and forces switches, Knock Off is controversial and has a long term impact. As for the staying in part sure, but like, Toxic just won't work on us like it does on Etern. We've broken some eggs with our typing choice, either we can make an omelet or pivot to the lunch shift. Just give the move a major BSR penalty.
I don't particularly care for dipping into signature moves here. Apple Acid, while letting our defensive set force switches, benefits our offensive set even more. Matcha is good, but like, its just a cranked move. Give it if you want, but I'm very neutral on it.
I'll stare at PS until the perfect answer leaps out at me and then edit it in.
Edit:
I've gone through all of BH. The best not mentioned options I have are Foul Play (defensive set goodness unironically, also lets us beat Rev), and Super Fang. Super Fang didn't work on Shox, but er, maybe it works here? Ruination is better for us, as it means dual stabs defenisve set can do something to Ghold, but its a sig and we don't like to give those out. Easy damage into King/Corv/Etc is still big though. I also think it somehow fits the same head-space as Toxic? I will not explain why.
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super fang's a very interesting option, but i feel like that's going to turn into our dynamax cannon rather than being our toxic. like dynamax cannon, super fang would serve as an all-purpose broad-spectrum click that puts things at 50% or below except for the things that are immune to it (resistant as well in dmax cannon's case, but whatever). this would also open up dark as a coverage option and allow us to do consistent damage without jacking up the attacking stat super high so we could just have it be regular high. food to consider
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I like Apple Acid a lot and I agree that it kind of replicates the damage ramping of Toxic from Eternatus. You can stay in against Eternatus if you can KO it in a few turns, but you can't start setting up to win the interaction. It isn't permanent progress in the same way that Toxic is, but CAP38 is also more resistant to permanent progress than Eternatus is thanks to Flower Veil, so it kinda fits?
It also replicates a fun interaction where Etern is immune to the opposing Etern easy progress button, so you can often send in Etern on Toxic and trade Dmax Cannons. For us, it would be a bit more like Foongus vs Foongus from LC, where both players have to spam Sludge Bomb until someone decides they want to preserve recovery PP, but I still think it's a neat touch.
I'm also in favour of either Thunder Wave or Will-O-Wisp (which CAP38 is also immune to, keeping the dynamic from above). The main status absorbers in CAP are Garganacl, Snaelstrom, Gliscor, Gholdengo, and a few specific mons for each status:
Shox & Libra for Para
Mollux & Ram for Burn
Mollux, Venom, Libra, Ram, Pech, Gking, and probably more for Poison
I think CAP is a pretty status resilient tier, but it is particularly resilient against Poison, having a large variety of strong poison types. Burn or Para do actually make pretty nice permanent progress against a lot of the tier. Para definitely makes progress more easily than Burn, but I would perhaps have concerns about Twave being too strong of a progress maker. Out of the entire tier, Ghold, Libra, Snaelstrom, Gliscor, Treads, Bolt and Zapdos would become the only mons to take neutral from our stabs and be immune to Twave, and many of these mons struggle to make meaningful progress in return to CAP38. I could see this becoming a very similar mon to Cresceidon in playstyle, running Twave + dual stabs + recover and annoying the entire tier.
It also replicates a fun interaction where Etern is immune to the opposing Etern easy progress button, so you can often send in Etern on Toxic and trade Dmax Cannons. For us, it would be a bit more like Foongus vs Foongus from LC, where both players have to spam Sludge Bomb until someone decides they want to preserve recovery PP, but I still think it's a neat touch.
I'm also in favour of either Thunder Wave or Will-O-Wisp (which CAP38 is also immune to, keeping the dynamic from above). The main status absorbers in CAP are Garganacl, Snaelstrom, Gliscor, Gholdengo, and a few specific mons for each status:
Shox & Libra for Para
Mollux & Ram for Burn
Mollux, Venom, Libra, Ram, Pech, Gking, and probably more for Poison
I think CAP is a pretty status resilient tier, but it is particularly resilient against Poison, having a large variety of strong poison types. Burn or Para do actually make pretty nice permanent progress against a lot of the tier. Para definitely makes progress more easily than Burn, but I would perhaps have concerns about Twave being too strong of a progress maker. Out of the entire tier, Ghold, Libra, Snaelstrom, Gliscor, Treads, Bolt and Zapdos would become the only mons to take neutral from our stabs and be immune to Twave, and many of these mons struggle to make meaningful progress in return to CAP38. I could see this becoming a very similar mon to Cresceidon in playstyle, running Twave + dual stabs + recover and annoying the entire tier.
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