CAP 4 CAP 4 - Attacking Moves Discussion

[Sunday]

Pure Utility Pokemon

Description: There is a serious lack of Gravity, Rapid Spin, Wish, non Dark weak Trick Room, OU viable Heal Bell / Aromatherapy, Encore, Memento, Non Dark weak Perish Song, Psycho Shift, Safeguard, Magic Coat, Me First, Snatch, Spikes, Toxic Spikes, Tailwind and Haze Pokemon in our lovely Metagame. I don't know what type, what stat distribution or even what kind of Pokemon would effectively use all those, but I want to build a utility Pokemon for the useful yet less used utility moves. If I had to narrow the field a bit, I would emphasize Tailwind, Gravity, non Dark weak Trick Room, Rapid Spin, Wish and Encore. The normal utility moves like Reflect and Light Screen go without saying.

Primary Typing: Poison
Secondary Typing: Ground
Style Bias: Mixed, Between -5 and -10 -- Slightly towards defence
Build Bias: Between 5 and 10 -- Slightly towards physical
Base Stat Rating: 300 to 419 -- Very Good
Base Stat Spread: 95 / 76 / 109 / 90 / 80 / 105 = 555 Speed Last.
Primary Ability: Persistant
Secondary Ability: Vital Spirit
Allowed in Movepool: Wish, Block/Spider Web, Tailwind, Gravity and Heal Block
Banned from Movepool: Slack Off and Yawn

In this thread we discuss what offencive options we want to give our Pokemon. Please note no complete movesets are allowed to be posted. There will be another thread for that when attacking moves have been decided.

U-Turn will be included in this discussion as it did not recieve adequate attention in the previous thread. Knock Off and Rapid Spin will NOT be included in this discussion.


I'll start us of by saying Poision Jab, Sludge Bomb, Earthquake and probably Earth Power go without saying. Many of those are TMs so don't even take up valuable space on the Pokemon's movepool. Elemental Punches are another option, as they can be used to cover specific threats without being overpowering when not 4x super effective.

 

[sbc]

Just to start this off:

Should Get
Force Palm
Fake Out
Wake Up Slap
Gunk Shot

Debatable
Shadow Ball
Gyro Ball
Stone Edge
Elemental Punches

 

[beej]

Should Get
Force Palm
Fake Out
Wake Up Slap
Elemental Punches
Doubleslap
Mud-Slap
Mud Bomb
Aerial Ace

Debatable
Shadow Ball
Gyro Ball
Stone Edge
Gunk Shot
Close Combat

If I may say so, I think that giving it all 3 punches is a must. Look at him, he's practically made for punching things. And considering the low Attack/base power, I don't think that it'll be broken at all, considering most of the things that are x4 weak to the punches are bulky, for example Gyarados, Gliscor, Forretress. The only reason I could see for not giving it the punches is that it would be pointless to do so, but there's no reason to NOT give it them and it works so perfectly flavor-wise. One could say that Thunderpunch won't work because it's a Ground-type, but Rhyperior gets THUNDERBOLT.

On the other hand, I can very easily see it using Close Combat, but it could be broken with the high base power and the ability to 2HKO Blissey. I think I could imagine Tyranitar doing somewhat well, and CC kills him too.

 

[latinoheat]

No to thunderpunch Gyarados is a safe switch in to this and it should stay that way. Outside of gimmicky moves this shouldn't really get anything worth using outside of stabs, it is not designed to be an attacker.

gunkshot
poison jab
sludge bomb
sludge
earth power
earthquake
mudbomb
mud slap
arm thrust
fake out
comet punch/double hit
double slap
force palm
wake up slap
gust/bounce
beat up
constrict
dig
sucker punch?
pursuit


Also what is the status of Me First

 

[Hyra]

Include all moves with the words Punch or Fist in them. He has a lower attack score anyways. To latinoheat, will a 76 Attack Intimidated Thunderpunch with no EVs (most likely) really threaten Gyarados that much? I think Waterfall coming back would be either equally or more threatening to this guy. Same applies to Garchomp and Salamence with EQ and Hydro Pump. Gliscor, Forretress, and maybe Scizor are the only ones who lose out.

Other than that, pretty much all Ground and Poison moves suit him. Gunk Shot easily comes out of his hands (yay looking through the entire art thread finally) and is by no stretch of the mind overpowering.

The only really debatable move I can see is Close Combat. I'm not sure how useful it is (redudant coverage with EQ and okay with Poison moves). TTar and most Fighting weaks wouldn't switch into in the first place because it has STAB EQ which is more powerful anyways. Blissey and a few Darks or Ices take more from this than from EQ. I can entirely see the Pokemon performing the move. The only opposition I see is that Defense drops are against the theme of the Pokemon and that killing Blissey is bad (really?).

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

[Obviously Elemental Punches, Force Palm, Cross Chop support post]

I mention I said this before in a previous thread, but I believe this guy could learn Energy Ball, Shadow Ball , Flamethrower, Shock Wave, and possible Icy Wind/Ice Beam. I believe that he could any of these attack without making it unbelievable...I mean goddamn Nidoking/queen can learn them too and their fucking dinosaur/whatever the fuck they are.

Energy Ball/Shadow Ball ~ Remember those purple dots in it's palm? Well that could be the focus point in which all the energy would gather. After gathering enough natural/dark energy, he throw it at his foe.

Flamethrower ~ Two ways he could do it. One of them involve forming a mock gun and firing it from the gun "barrel". Another is from that palm dot/opening like how Poilwhirl does it's Water Gun IIRC

Shock Wave ~ Clapping and literally sending a shock wave to the foe.

Icy Wind ~ Possibly fanning his foe with his huge hands

Ice Beam ~ Mock gun set-up.

Should Get
Force Palm
Fake Out
Wake Up Slap
Elemental Punches
Earth Power
Earthquake
Sludge Bomb
Poison Jab
U-Turn
Energy Ball
Shadow Ball
Icy Wind

Debatable
Gyro Ball
Ice Beam
Flamethrower
Stone Edge
Gunk Shot
Cross Chop
Close Combat
Octazooka

 

[Wyverii]

Can you really say that it's fine to give him every attack with a punch? Thunderpunch is fine to me but what about Dizzy Punch? Being able to attack and confuse the opponent may get annoying.

Close Combat doesn't seem needed to me. It fits but its usage on this Pokemon is debatable especially with the defence drop.

We could also give him Wring Out, just throwing that out there.

 

[X-Act]

For sure:

Poison Jab - Obvious.
Dig - It can dig (even from the artwork)
Earthquake - Yes.
Fling - Those hands can certainly fling things.
Wake-Up Slap - Goes hand-in-hand with its concept.
Comet Punch/Barrage/DoubleSlap - Goes well with the artwork.
Sludge Bomb - Obvious.
Sludge - Obvious.
Earth Power - Yes.
Mud Bomb/Mud Shot - Go well with the artwork.


Maybe:

Gunk Shot - It has only 76 base Atk, but it has also 105 Speed. However, Gunk Shot has only 70 accuracy. Hmm...
Focus Punch - I don't know if its broken...
Ice Punch/Fire Punch/ThunderPunch - They're not broken, as it has only 76 base Atk, but are they really needed?
Swift - Maybe could work...
Octazooka - "Fires a lump of ink to damage and cut accuracy". It's got 8 hands. Firing a lump of ink is possible seeing as this is a Poison Pokemon. So maybe it could work?


I'll also suggest a new move to go with this guy:

Attack Name: OctoSludge
Type: Poison
Category: Special
Power Points: 15
Base Power: 12
Accuracy: 100
Battle Effect: Throws a lump of sludge 8 times. The move continues even if the foe is Knocked Out. (For example, if the foe is KOed with 3 of the 8 sludge throws, the remaining 5 are then dealt to the replacement Pokemon before either of the players do anything else. Or maybe 2 sludge throws would KO a Pokemon and another 5 would KO another Pokemon... then the eighth one is dealt to the second replacement Pokemon.)

What do you think? Base Power could be changed (right now it's 12x8 = 96), but do you agree to its concept?

 

[latinoheat]

I like the idea but i just think we should stay away from created moves in general, we already had to make a new ability as it is.



The LO Gyarados variation will always be 2hko by thunderpunch if stealth rock is down. That is factoring in no evs and intimidate.
A negative nature with no evs has an 83% chance of a 2hko with stealth rock down.

 

[Hyra]

I like the idea but i just think we should stay away from created moves in general, we already had to make a new ability as it is.



The LO Gyarados variation will always be 2hko by thunderpunch if stealth rock is down. That is factoring in no evs and intimidate.
A negative nature with no evs has an 83% chance of a 2hko with stealth rock down.

But you forget that Gyarados has STAB LO Waterfall to destroy this guy with. Handyman (lame yes, but short) will rarely fire off Thunderpunch to anything besides Gyarados. I expect a battle to go like this.

Switchin in Handyman.
Pokemon X uses Move Y.

Handyman uses Encore on Pokemon X.
Pokemon X repeats Move Y.

Pokemon X is switched for Gyarados.
Handyman uses Support Move Z.

Handyman uses Thunderpunch.
Gyarados uses Waterfall.

What happens next depends on if Handyman is OHKO'd or not. Of course, this is assuming Encore wasn't being used to get a free switch in the first place, in which case Handyman would have switched out at the same time as Pokemon X.

To X-Act: The move is nice and might actually be the first CAP move made. My only fear is that a custom ability and move will be seen as too fanboyish (who cares, really this worry exploded this time around).

 

[Lunar Fang]

Should Get
Gunk Shot
All punches
Eathquake
Earth Power
Poison Jab
Sludge Bomb
Force Palm
Double hit
Fake Out
Mud Slap
Mud Shot
Arm thrust
Wake Up Slap
Double Slap

Debatable
Close Combat
Pursuit
Sky Uppercut?

 

[Tsukikage]

Should Get
Poison Jab
Earthquake
Earth Power
Sludge Bomb
Stone Edge
Force Palm
Wake-Up Slap
Double Slap
Comet Punch
Karate Chop

Maybe
Fire/Ice/Thunderpunch
Cross Chop
Gunk Shot
U-Turn
X Scissor

Definate No (IMO)
Close Combat

We've already killed Blissey enough with every other CaP, do we really need to give this Close Combat? Also, I wouldn't mind seeing Fissure in the level up list when we get there. If OHKO moves are unbanned or turned off, Gravity+Fissure would be awesome.

 

[Hyra]

We've already killed Blissey enough with every other CaP, do we really need to give this Close Combat? Also, I wouldn't mind seeing Fissure in the level up list when we get there. If OHKO moves are unbanned or turned off, Gravity+Fissure would be awesome.

Except Gravity doesn't affect OHKOs. Only No Guard does, and that's only when aimed at or used by Machamp. Basically, you open up a 30% chance of OHKO on Flyers and Levitators but nothing else.

 

[latinoheat]

How accurate is Gunk shot under Gravity btw

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

Also, I wouldn't mind seeing Fissure in the level up list when we get there. If OHKO moves are unbanned or turned off, Gravity+Fissure would be awesome.

Go go Gravity+Fissure set, I like it.

Edit: Oh goddamnit I forgot about Fissure evasion clause ruling =/

What's disturbing me here is everyone tl;dring my post about Energy Ball and others. It is that hard to believe he couldn't learn them when you have a rhinoceros/gorilla/rabbit/porcupine (Nidoqueen) and Baragon bastard child (Nidoking) can learn 5 out of 6 I listed =/

 

[Hyra]

How accurate is Gunk shot under Gravity btw

If Base Accuracy is 70, I think it goes to 91. I'm not entirely sure though. Edit: Yep, I'm wrong. I was probably thinking Compound Eyes boost.


GT: I think its more that those spaces are better spent on support moves. Any of the moves you listed that are TM I'm fine with. I would like to save the Level Up and Egg Move lists for the large amount of support moves we want him to have and for the STAB moves that are not TMs (like Fissure, which I want on it anyways).

 

[sbc]

I don't think the elemental punches are too bad on this thing...it's going to be a support pokemon, so it will probably have two attacks at most, Earthquake and X move, if it has Fire Punch, Salamence+Gyara will wall it silly, Thunderpunch : Celebi, Ice Punch: Bronzor (although Celebi and Zapdos will still wall it easily with 76 atk) so its hardly overpowered.

Even if someone ran an all out life orbed Ice Punch / Thunderpunch / EQ / Fire Punch or whatever set, Swampert, Cresselia, even Pyroak lol would still wall it easily.

 

[latinoheat]

Hippodown as well the second set is just a shitty version of an already debatable shitty pokemon.

 

[FlygonRuler]

Odd enough, these don't really matter to me, as only the obvious one will get used enough to matter if they are there or not.

So, the things I want to see are Earthquake, Earthpower, Cross Poison, Sludge Bomb, Force Palm, DoubleSlap, Mach Punch, and Bullet Punch.

I don't have a problem with any attacking moves that this guy gets, so long as it makes sense (I.E. Thunder no, but Shadow Ball fine.)

 

[X-Act]

How accurate is Gunk shot under Gravity btw

100% accurate.

 

[1059860]

Should Get:
Force Palm
Dig
Earthquake
Poison Jab
Stone Edge
Mud Slap
Gunk Shot

Debatable:
Elemental Punches (Leaning towards No)
Focus Punch (Seems broken)
Basic Elemental Specials (Flamethrower, Ice Beam, T-Bolt)
Close Combat (Seems broken)
Stone Edge

Reason for above DEBATABLES: This Pokemon has a decent offense and a good speed. It would be a SWEEPER if it gets those moves.

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

GT: I think its more that those spaces are better spent on support moves. Any of the moves you listed that are TM I'm fine with. I would like to save the Level Up and Egg Move lists for the large amount of support moves we want him to have and for the STAB moves that are not TMs (like Fissure, which I want on it anyways).

It's a good thing that five out of the six moves I'm advocating are TMs so no worries about taking up precious Level-up/Egg move space. The only other move suggestions I have are Mach Punch and Bullet Punch. Hi-speed punch based move...perfect for him.

 

[Hyra]

Reason for above DEBATABLES: This Pokemon has a decent offense and a good speed. It would be a SWEEPER if it gets those moves.

So you know, you can't sweep with 76 Atk unboosted. Same thing with 90 SAtk unboosted. Honestly, most sweepers have at least 100 in their main attack stat, and this barely cuts it without being able to stat up. Think of it like this, Starmie has 115 Speed and 100 SAtk, how much do you see it sweeping? This has less Speed and SAtk, so why would it sweep if Starmie can't?

 

[xdevo13]

starmie can sweep but that is off the point
to many attacking moves make it less likely to use supporting moves
yes
U-turn
sludge(bomb)
punches
ONE- TWO first moving attacks
stone edge
EQ
dig
force palm
double slap
poison jab
Earthpower
Comet Punch
Karate Chop
Wake-Up Slap

 

[Hyra]

???

If its better at using Encore than attacking, it could have every attacking move ever and still use Encore over all of them. And Starmie can't sweep. Any Special Wall (excluding Heatran) will stop it cold. It can sweep a weakened team, but Hippowdon could do that if I felt like it. And even if Starmie can sweep, Surf is arguably one of the best attacking moves in the game. Earth Power / Sludge Bomb won't be killing much.