CAP 4 CAP 4 - Part 3 (Secondary Typing Poll 2 )

[ParadOxymoron]

GROUND

• A Poison / Ground would be just as awesome as a Poison / Dragon. Don't doubt design's ability to make something totally sick either way.

• Especially considering how big of a deal everyone made about Toxic Spikes absorption in the first topic, Stealth Rock resistance and Sandstorm immunity are much more significant for a utility Pokemon, rather than a tank, than the myriad of resistances that Dragon offers. It's designed to be switching in, not taking hits! Not to mention that Ground typing would grant it access to Stealth Rock itself.

• Thunder Wave immunity would really help it from getting crippled by paralysis and losing its ability to support the team effectively.

• Earthquake, so it can pack a bit of a punch. It's better than anything that Dragon has to offer, and would help it counter things that are weak to Ground, particularly Heatran.

• Ground types tend to have better physical defenses than Dragon types. See Gliscor and Hippowdon, two of the best physical walls in the game.

• As Latino Heat pointed out: Poison / Ground would make a great counter to Heracross and Lucario, being resistant to Close Combat, Stone Edge, and Megahorn.

 

[Majesano]

yay for ground.

 

[Syprus]

Ground.

 

[Amelia]

Dragon, i've been with it all the way from the start before Poison was even chosen.

 

[Bass]

Dragon
Like a few people who voted, I am still embittered by the results of the previous poll. I felt Electric would always be a more fun type to make a pure utility pokemon with.

So why is my secondary type Dragon? Well, unlike with the first poll, I actually think resistances and weaknesses DO matter, and Poison/Dragon simply offers a better number of resistances than Poison/Electric. But just like with my support for electric in the previous poll, a Dragon Utility pokemon would bring something interesting to the metagame since there are no good Dragon Utility pokemon right now.

 

[tennisace]

...only a single weakness which can be removed if given levitate (possible Weezing evo) and not have Gravity.

Two problems with this:
One: This will not be an evolution. I can't tell you how many times I posted saying there will be a separate evo project, and now everyone can see that it does indeed exist with the process thread.

Two: After talking with Aldaron on the server, Gravity is a necessity on this, for the sole reason that it was specifically mentioned in the concept. That was the whole point of the concept, to use Gravity, among other moves. So as a disclaimer to all people wanting Poison/Steel or Poison/Electric, heed my warning: This WILL get Gravity.

On to the vote. I vote DRAGON. First, I love Drapion and the Nidos, so I don't want to "show them up" by making a better pokemon. They all work amazing in OU provided you use them correctly. Second, I'd love another support Dragon, with Dragonite having better things to do, and Altaria having some movepool and stat issues. Third, I also want a Dragon that's not 4x weak to Ice that's not Kingdra or NFE. Last, I think that this would combine many of the concepts, including but not limited too: Garchomp Counter (or not), Supporter, Bulky Dragon, and Special based Dragon, along with countering Pyroak. So there's my vote: DRAGON.

 

[BARILLIAN]

I am changing my vote to Ground to offset the Dragon bandwagon. I am flexible, though.

A turtle Dragon is the best thing I can think of for a defensive dragon

turtle

Dragon

What.

The only "turtle dragon" I can think from the top of my head is the Tarasque, but that aside, why do you think a serpentine dragon shouldn't be defensive? Snakes shedding their skin is considered a form of rebirth, Lernaean Hydra has some good survivability going for him, Naga kings like Shesha and Vasuki have this "mystical" aspect dragons have, most cosmic snakes/deitified dragons would have access to Psychic moves like Trick Room and Gravity, and so on.

If anything, I'd like to see a multiheaded serpent for Poison/Dragon, perhaps coiling around a large blue orb that contains its powers (Like Dragonair/Eastern dragons) in a reference to the world serpent myth, but with the coil ending and its heads rising from one of the poles. Basilisk (but not cockatrice) is fine too, but we can't logically stick much utility to that.

 

[Majesano]

Tennisace, you might wanna put the bold "DRAGON"
up top just cause sunday said that votes will not be counted if they are buried under text.
then again, it is pretty clear.

 

[latinoheat]

Its more a case of serpent/snake/lizard clones have been done to fucking death, i am hoping someone proves me wrong but thats all i can think of coming from this typing.

 

[EvilBob]

Dark

Poison/Dark is a cool combination, and would only have the ground weakness, while having an immunity and several resistances.

 

[ParadOxymoron]

First, I love Drapion and the Nidos, so I don't want to "show them up" by making a better pokemon.

This is not a valid argument! When Game Freak made Bronzong, they weren't showing up Metagross! They were making a completely different kind of Pokemon! Just because we're making Poison / Ground or Poison / Dark doesn't mean that we'd be showing up the Pokemon who already had that type. Besides the type combination, it wouldn't necessarily have anything to do with them at all.

 

[Bass]

I'll again make another post to give another reason on WHY we should vote Dragon.

First of all, as tennisace0227 mentioned, Gravity IS part of the concept of this pokemon. That means that several pokemon, most notably Bronzong, Skarmory, Zapdos, and Gengar, will be at the mercy of powerful STAB'd Earthquakes from the likes of Garchomp and Mamoswine. The of fact the matter is that that our creation, regardless of what choice we vote for, will always have a Ground weakness. Poison/Steel and Poison/Electric now look like bad choices because it will only make Garchomp an even more inviting switch in, able to rape it, even if it had Hippowdon's defenses. However, making Dragon the secondary typing will force Garchomp users to think twice about switching in, as a STAB dragon attack will obviously hit it hard. Sure, being weak to Garchomp's Outrage will also result, but it's not like our pokemon will ever stay in against Garchomp anyway, and the key with a Dragon STAB is hitting him on the switch.

 

[Estranged]

Ground because of things already mentioned.

 

[DougJustDoug]

After talking with Aldaron on the server, Gravity is a necessity on this, for the sole reason that it was specifically mentioned in the concept. That was the whole point of the concept, to use Gravity, among other moves. So as a disclaimer to all people wanting Poison/Steel or Poison/Electric, heed my warning: This WILL get Gravity.

Why does Poison/Steel or Poison/Electric preclude Gravity as a move?

Is it because it seems that a pokemon 4x weak to Ground should not get a move like Gravity? I think it's odd that Dragonite is 4x weak to Ice and still gets Ice Beam. Heatran is 4x weak to Ground and gets Earth Power.

Unless this gets Levitate (I hope not), Gravity won't hurt it any more than it already is. Yes, Gravity is an invitation for opponents to come in and EQ. But this is a team-player pokemon, and it could set up Gravity for the rest of the team. In which case, it will be switching out anyway. Whether, this is 2x weak to Ground or 4x weak, it will be running from EQ every time -- Gravity or not.

Is it because Gravity couldn't possibly make sense on a Poison/Steel or Poison/Electric? If we did a radiation pokemon for Poison/Electric, it could increase Gravity as a result of manipulating electromagnetic fields (assuming a unified field theory is forthcoming someday, but w/e). I'm not saying that's the best idea, but don't assume the flavor of the typing and design won't work for Gravity.

In fact, don't assume this will get Gravity at all. The concept is not "Gravity Abuser". There was actually a concept specifically for Gravity (Mekkah's "Gravity Unit" ) and it was not selected. Just because there were a slew of suggested moves in the concept description, does NOT mean we are obligated to give it ANY of them. The concept does not predetermine the moveset, unless the entire concept is built around the move. "Pure Utility Pokemon" connotes a bunch of moves, but none specifically. It is not a foregone conclusion that Gravity will be in the movelist. That will be determined during the move polls.

Do I want Gravity? Yes. Would other types be able to utilize Gravity better than Poison/Steel and Poison/Electric? I don't know. IMO, unless this is a fast Poison/Ground -- it will have to setup Gravity and run away regardless. We can put Gravity on any of the types presented.

 

[tennisace]

This is not a valid argument! When Game Freak made Bronzong, they weren't showing up Metagross! They were making a completely different kind of Pokemon! Just because we're making Poison / Ground or Poison / Dark doesn't mean that we'd be showing up the Pokemon who already had that type. Besides the type combination, it wouldn't necessarily have anything to do with them at all.

It wouldn't be a valid arguement IF WE WEREN'T CREATING A POKEMON WITH THE SAME NICHE. If you read Smogon's analysis of Nidoqueen, it says that it functions as a great Heracross and Lucario counter. Also, Drapion functions as a great supporter on its own. Metagross is a bulky sweeper, while Bronzong is a supporter/mixed wall. They're two different roles. You're saying something like "Flygon is pretty good, but lets make Garchomp better, so we can "expand" the metagame."

Tennisace, you might wanna put the bold "DRAGON"
up top just cause sunday said that votes will not be counted if they are buried under text.
then again, it is pretty clear.

I'm sure Sunday can see the huge dragon at the bottom.

EDIT: @Doug, I see what you're saying, but I'm not sure an Astrophysics Pokemon would work, seeing as that's Alakazam's niche.

 

[Pimplup]

2. Ground

Has many resistances and immunity to Thunder Wave, as well as absorbing Toxic Spikes, quite a list there. But a bonus is STAB'ed EQ, very smexy coming off a wall:naughty:.

 

[ParadOxymoron]

It wouldn't be a valid arguement IF WE WEREN'T CREATING A POKEMON WITH THE SAME NICHE.

Okay, but I remain convinced that it's not the exact same niche. I mean, it's not like the Nidos are "Pure Utility Pokemon".

Well, I'm very torn between the 2 options. Couldn't decide which to put as main option. IDK, I hope one of them wins...

If you don't pick one of them, then your vote won't be counted.

 

[tennisace]

Nidoqueen may not have all the support moves we want to give this, but it still is a Poison/Ground Support pokemon.

 

[LoZDestroyer]

Elec

Because DjD really changed my opinions. See my later post on the ~6th page for more reason.

 

[Aldaron]

HEH, Aldaron is changing his vote from the last poll!!

Ground it is ;D

 

[Wyverii]

Aw heck, dragon's winning. Well you can't win them all I suppose but i'm going to find the art for this extremely boring especially after doing the dragon-like Pyroak last time.

It's good to see ground and dark getting some love though.

 

[chronostrike]

Ground
Since steel is now known not to absorb toxic spikes, this is my choice given the SR resist.

 

[DougJustDoug]

For all the Dragon voters -- Is anyone concerned at all that we would make a pokemon weak to Ice?

With all the Garchomp abuse out there -- the only attacking type you are GUARANTEED to face in ABUNDANCE is Ice. I personally carry at least three Ice moves on my teams, just because of the number of threats that require Ice to dispose of them. I've heard of some people packing an Ice move on 5 out of their 6 pokemon.

The metagame right now is very heavily geared to handle Dragons. Because Garchomp is such an uber badass -- it doesn't matter and people use Chomp anyway.

Yes, you can point to the resistances of Poison/Dragon and it looks pretty good. It can come in on lots of moves, but can it come in on many actual pokemon? How many pokemon don't carry an ice move or a ground move? Not many. Sure you can switch in on a move, but if the opponent is still packing an SE move in return, that's not a great switch. If they predict you, you're fucked anyway.

My point is this -- in the current metagame, do you really think a utility pokemon that is weak to ice and ground, will get a chance to set up anything useful for the team? I'm worried about that. It's going to be weak to Ground, no matter what. Thank you, Poison. But, let's not compound it by making it weak to Ice as well. We cannot honestly think we can make a utility poke that is weak to the two most spammed attacking types in the metagame.

 

[Thydoom]

1. No secondary Type

Why? well, instead of jumping on the "Dragon Bandwagon", lets think.

Being hit super effective by 3 common attacking moves is a BIG deal.
Resisting Electric means nothing, as its ussually accompanied with Ice.
Dragon is self explanatory, and Ground usually comes with dragon type move.

Being mystic means Squat. Poison Never sounds mystic, even if combined with dragon.

Resists, What resists?!

Water and fire are almost never seen, and even less seen together.Bug is never seen as an offensive type, and when it is, it A) is accompanied by something to destroy to destroy it's resists(Stone Edge and blizzard, anyone?)
B)for the sake of having an offensive move(Ninjask) or C)Is supported by a broken Ability(Tinted lens).

Grass is used solely for the purpose of Smashing swampert, And is ussually nothing more then a hidden power, or in the case of Roserade, Acompanied by Hp Ice, Which Smashes your dragaon into Oblivion.

Resisting poison is Irrelevent

All the other types Suck too.

Steel adds nothing meaningful, and turns this into an invitation for garchomp to come in and Destroy your team.

Dark has NO useful resists, and only one weakness is meaningless, if it's one of the most used offensive type moves.

Electric.(See Steel)

Ground is posibly the most viable one out of all of them, and that just turns him into a Gliscor Clone.

I only Rooted for Rock, Because of the Sandstorm boost, and the Possibility of a unique movepool.

Edit: Thank you dougjustdoug+ For being Awesome, and a voice of reason.

 

[ParadOxymoron]

Just because it's been done before doesn't mean we can't do it again. Who remembers the Nidos, honestly? What if there were already a Poison / Dragon type? Then all y'all who are freaking out about the Nidos would be freaking out about that, too.

There are only 289 possible type combinations. When you think about it, it's really just picking two numbers from 1 to 17 and putting them together, so it's not like there's any single type combination that noone's ever thought of before. We won't get any bonus points for doing Poison / Dragon just because it's a type combination that's never been done before. Why? Because it doesn't really take any creativity to just put a couple of types together.

What matters is what we do with the Pokemon, not whether any of its types have been used before or any of that. And the fact of the matter is, Poison / Ground would be better for a utility Pokemon than Poison / Dragon, for all of the reasons that have been said above.