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CAP 4 CAP 4 - Part 3 (Secondary Typing Poll 2 )
- Thread starter Sunday
- Start date
- Status
Electric
DJD convinced me to not go Dragon, although I highly doubt it matters.
DJD convinced me to not go Dragon, although I highly doubt it matters.
Changing Vote from Poison/Dark to Poison/Ground
It looks like Dark will not get enough votes to move on, despite it being an amazing typing and no real reason not to pick this. I've kept an eye on this, and there are only two combinations competing on to the next Part; Dragon and Ground. I've stated my dislike of the dragon concept, so theres no chance of me going for that. I noted that Ground was a good choice save for the crippling weakness's, yet... I've done some thinking ahead and I see how this can certainly work out. Try and bear with me.
The original concept I had for the Poison/Dark was a burrowing spider (think of a Wolf Spider/Funnel Web Spider/Trap Door Spider). This would have access to a lot of flavour utility moves, like the screens as the defense, being able to pull down it's prey with "gravity", and hopefully some way to fit trick room in there. I thought a move similar to Mean Look, Spider Web, could be used to trap the foe, but something else could be done.
The idea of a burrowing spider fits quite well with it being Poison/Ground; It being a venomous being, living in the earth. This transfers over, and I do love this concept. Anyways, this set has a crippling weakness in Ice and Ground type moves. Theres no real way to remove this crippling feature, I thought, without the aid of Filter or something of the like. Well, keeping with the trapping nature of such a spider like pokemon...
Arena Trap.
This would allow it to switch into something that wouldn't threaten it with SE damage. The main issue with a Utility pokemon is that it needs to be relatively bulky to survive switch in's to set up, else it will usually be forced out and that would compromise it's role. Trapping the foe would be a great way to eliminate this weakness in utility pokemon, also allowing us to make this less bulky. We'd have to make sure it couldn't threaten the opponent's pokemon with much offense, so that would be low.
I love the design. An Ant Lion and mole can trap the opponent, so why not a trap door spider?
I know thats jumping ahead a lot, but what do you guys think of it?
So, I'll be changing my original post to redirect to this one.
I hope Dragon doesnt win.
It looks like Dark will not get enough votes to move on, despite it being an amazing typing and no real reason not to pick this. I've kept an eye on this, and there are only two combinations competing on to the next Part; Dragon and Ground. I've stated my dislike of the dragon concept, so theres no chance of me going for that. I noted that Ground was a good choice save for the crippling weakness's, yet... I've done some thinking ahead and I see how this can certainly work out. Try and bear with me.
The original concept I had for the Poison/Dark was a burrowing spider (think of a Wolf Spider/Funnel Web Spider/Trap Door Spider). This would have access to a lot of flavour utility moves, like the screens as the defense, being able to pull down it's prey with "gravity", and hopefully some way to fit trick room in there. I thought a move similar to Mean Look, Spider Web, could be used to trap the foe, but something else could be done.
The idea of a burrowing spider fits quite well with it being Poison/Ground; It being a venomous being, living in the earth. This transfers over, and I do love this concept. Anyways, this set has a crippling weakness in Ice and Ground type moves. Theres no real way to remove this crippling feature, I thought, without the aid of Filter or something of the like. Well, keeping with the trapping nature of such a spider like pokemon...
Arena Trap.
This would allow it to switch into something that wouldn't threaten it with SE damage. The main issue with a Utility pokemon is that it needs to be relatively bulky to survive switch in's to set up, else it will usually be forced out and that would compromise it's role. Trapping the foe would be a great way to eliminate this weakness in utility pokemon, also allowing us to make this less bulky. We'd have to make sure it couldn't threaten the opponent's pokemon with much offense, so that would be low.
I love the design. An Ant Lion and mole can trap the opponent, so why not a trap door spider?
I know thats jumping ahead a lot, but what do you guys think of it?
So, I'll be changing my original post to redirect to this one.
I hope Dragon doesnt win.
Dragon
Yeah, Ice and Ground attacks are common. I still feel, however, that a Poison/Dragon Pokemon would be able to succeed on a defensive/supportive front. Dragon still provides the most resistances, and thus, the biggest number of opportunities to switch in.
If we look at the actual top 25 Pokemon in usage...not all of the Pokemon that frequently carry Ice attacks are powerful enough to pose a real threat to a Pokemon that's not 4x weak to Ice. If our hypothetical Poison/Dragon Pokemon has 100/100/100/100/100/100 BST, running 252 HP EV's, the standard Blissey's Ice Beam does 32.67% - 38.37% - easily shrugged off with a recovery move. And that's the absolute worst that Blissey can do to it - any other attack is a pretty free switch (T-wave might cripple it if it actually does have 100 speed base, but that's something we'll worry about later). Gengar doesn't 2HKO with HP Ice unless it has Life Orb, in which case it just does 50-58% damage, which means it could be stalled out easily if you come in on any other move or invest in special defense more. And again, that's the worst that will happen. How it fares against standard Gyarados of course depends on Gyara's moveset - on bulky sets, Earthquake has a good chance of a 2HKO, versions with Ice Fang 3HKO normally and have a very shaky 2HKO after a DD (47.52% - 55.69%). LO gyara will generally win. Variants with Stone Edge/Waterfall and Restalk versions, on the other hand, will usually lose. That's 2 out of the top 5 used Pokemon that usually carry Ice/Ground attacks which our Poison/Dragon can stand against, and one which frequently doesn't carry the right type of attacks.
Of course, a lot of that is conjecture as we're nowhere near deciding on a stat spread yet, but you see my point - weaknesses to Ground and Ice don't automatically doom a utility Pokemon. Plenty of Pokemon with defensive or utility value like Jirachi, Celebi, Heatran, Gliscor, Roserade, etc have multiple common weaknesses but succeed regardless (if it seems like I'm grasping at straws for examples here, it's partially because the statement in the idea for this CAP is very true - there's a big lack of quality utility Pokemon out there). However, as you'll notice with many of Pokemon I listed, the biggest trend is having several valuable resistances - Poison/Dragon brings us much closer to this goal than any other type combination sans Poison/Steel does, which is a big reason that it deserves votes. Also, this:
Is a pretty good point I overlooked. Poison/Dragon makes for a great counter to Pyroak - resistance to both STABs, SE STAB of it's own, etc.
Yeah, Ice and Ground attacks are common. I still feel, however, that a Poison/Dragon Pokemon would be able to succeed on a defensive/supportive front. Dragon still provides the most resistances, and thus, the biggest number of opportunities to switch in.
If we look at the actual top 25 Pokemon in usage...not all of the Pokemon that frequently carry Ice attacks are powerful enough to pose a real threat to a Pokemon that's not 4x weak to Ice. If our hypothetical Poison/Dragon Pokemon has 100/100/100/100/100/100 BST, running 252 HP EV's, the standard Blissey's Ice Beam does 32.67% - 38.37% - easily shrugged off with a recovery move. And that's the absolute worst that Blissey can do to it - any other attack is a pretty free switch (T-wave might cripple it if it actually does have 100 speed base, but that's something we'll worry about later). Gengar doesn't 2HKO with HP Ice unless it has Life Orb, in which case it just does 50-58% damage, which means it could be stalled out easily if you come in on any other move or invest in special defense more. And again, that's the worst that will happen. How it fares against standard Gyarados of course depends on Gyara's moveset - on bulky sets, Earthquake has a good chance of a 2HKO, versions with Ice Fang 3HKO normally and have a very shaky 2HKO after a DD (47.52% - 55.69%). LO gyara will generally win. Variants with Stone Edge/Waterfall and Restalk versions, on the other hand, will usually lose. That's 2 out of the top 5 used Pokemon that usually carry Ice/Ground attacks which our Poison/Dragon can stand against, and one which frequently doesn't carry the right type of attacks.
Of course, a lot of that is conjecture as we're nowhere near deciding on a stat spread yet, but you see my point - weaknesses to Ground and Ice don't automatically doom a utility Pokemon. Plenty of Pokemon with defensive or utility value like Jirachi, Celebi, Heatran, Gliscor, Roserade, etc have multiple common weaknesses but succeed regardless (if it seems like I'm grasping at straws for examples here, it's partially because the statement in the idea for this CAP is very true - there's a big lack of quality utility Pokemon out there). However, as you'll notice with many of Pokemon I listed, the biggest trend is having several valuable resistances - Poison/Dragon brings us much closer to this goal than any other type combination sans Poison/Steel does, which is a big reason that it deserves votes. Also, this:
TAY said:
Is a pretty good point I overlooked. Poison/Dragon makes for a great counter to Pyroak - resistance to both STABs, SE STAB of it's own, etc.
I really hope this thing doesn't get 100/100/100 defences.
OMG OMG Poison/Ground is AWESOME! All those immunities.. This thing would totally PWN! Unbeatable!
Ok, excuse the noob statement, but THAT is exactly why this poison/ground shouldn't happen. Allowing it to come in, trash all entry hazards unscathed because of its immunities, and continue to set up its utility of choice is broken.
Having this thing on a team would make it unbeatable. Sure, its probably not going to sweep the entire team but its basically assured that the strategy will be set up flawlessly (without even taking a risk). Making this any better than the Nidos (as utility) makes it broken, so just use them.
THAT is why I think Poison/Dragon is superior. It would make a good but not unbeatable support poke. RESISTANCES are better in this case: it allows for the poke to come in (not unscathed) and set up strategy of choice. Its not broken cause it will have to spend a turn recovering off any damage to stick around. Resistances > immunities. And dragon gives resistances (thick fat could take care of ice for those worried so much).
Ok, excuse the noob statement, but THAT is exactly why this poison/ground shouldn't happen. Allowing it to come in, trash all entry hazards unscathed because of its immunities, and continue to set up its utility of choice is broken.
Having this thing on a team would make it unbeatable. Sure, its probably not going to sweep the entire team but its basically assured that the strategy will be set up flawlessly (without even taking a risk). Making this any better than the Nidos (as utility) makes it broken, so just use them.
THAT is why I think Poison/Dragon is superior. It would make a good but not unbeatable support poke. RESISTANCES are better in this case: it allows for the poke to come in (not unscathed) and set up strategy of choice. Its not broken cause it will have to spend a turn recovering off any damage to stick around. Resistances > immunities. And dragon gives resistances (thick fat could take care of ice for those worried so much).
Why? Unlike Pyroak, it's got several common weaknesses, so there's a lot less worry about it being too difficult to counter because nothing can both switch in safely and kill it. I'd say that most utility Pokemon would need pretty good defenses in order to be effective. Either that, or a combination of decent defenses and good speed (Starmie, for example).
Yes cause the concept for a poison dragon [which so far has been...well snake] can definitely have thick fat.
And also, poison/ground would have less resistances than dragon, making dragon more broken? It doesn't have "all those immunities" just toxy spikes and electric. And other than poison/ground being its type, there is no explanation for comparing this to the nidos. different roles almost entirely. Additionally, there is no way a poison/ground would be unbeatable, it shares the crippling ice weakness that makes the dragon type not broken, among other things.
And also, poison/ground would have less resistances than dragon, making dragon more broken? It doesn't have "all those immunities" just toxy spikes and electric. And other than poison/ground being its type, there is no explanation for comparing this to the nidos. different roles almost entirely. Additionally, there is no way a poison/ground would be unbeatable, it shares the crippling ice weakness that makes the dragon type not broken, among other things.
Why the hell would it be "broken"? Immunity to all entry hazards and Twave doesn't seem broken, and having such an ability can be balanced out by modest stats; not 100/100/100. As long as they have a single attack move, and assuming we made it's defenses not at all overpowered even with good EV placement, the pokemon should not be able to stay in forever. A recovery option might make this hard to deal with, but Rest could be considered.
This pokemon, despite being based on utility, will be limited to four moves, as are all. We might see a set like...
Knock Off
Rapid Spin
Gravity
Light Screen
This would not last too long on the field, varying on who you moved in to, but you could set up with the move that your team required the most. Knock Off to a threat you can trap, or rapid spin against a non ghost. Wish support would allow some more usage of this poke, maybe setting up a light Screen and gravity.
It depends on how the stats are set up.
Just because it may be better than the Nidos (who arent pure utility pokes), doesn't make this pokemon unstoppable. This trapping isn't as good as Wobb, and can only trap flyers with gravity set up before hand.
Weaknesses are the main issue, which I mentioned. The minute you switch in, you have to set up and then switch out if the foe has switched to a counter (probably). They get a turn to do whatever or hurt your switch in. If you make it so that it can take a few hits from it's weaknesses, then it's broken, even more so if it can recovery of the damage.
DRAGON
I'd vote for Dark but there isn't enough votes. If it does become Dragon or Ground I hope can be done about its problems with weaknesses. And yeah, people forget a dragon with 2x weakness to Ice (and a defensive one to boot) will take it much better than something like Mence or Chomp. And if its gonna be Utility, it shouldn't be able to counter most of the top 25 pokes, it should make things easier for your teammates to do that.
I'd vote for Dark but there isn't enough votes. If it does become Dragon or Ground I hope can be done about its problems with weaknesses. And yeah, people forget a dragon with 2x weakness to Ice (and a defensive one to boot) will take it much better than something like Mence or Chomp. And if its gonna be Utility, it shouldn't be able to counter most of the top 25 pokes, it should make things easier for your teammates to do that.
Dragon
I changed my mind, we already have a few Posion/Darks, and Poison/Dragon is unique and interesting sounding.
I changed my mind, we already have a few Posion/Darks, and Poison/Dragon is unique and interesting sounding.
No Secondary Typing
Question:
When the time expires, are we doing a third and final poll narrowed down to the two/three most commonly chosen type combinations during this poll? It seems to be a waste when there were so many votes for stuff that probably wont make it, especially since not everyone has checked up on this progress/changed their votes.
A 24 hour final vote is eh.
But, if you don't plan on keeping it going, I can't complain.
I just really dislike thinking through with stuff just to be brushed off because a dragon is unique/cool :s
When the time expires, are we doing a third and final poll narrowed down to the two/three most commonly chosen type combinations during this poll? It seems to be a waste when there were so many votes for stuff that probably wont make it, especially since not everyone has checked up on this progress/changed their votes.
A 24 hour final vote is eh.
But, if you don't plan on keeping it going, I can't complain.
I just really dislike thinking through with stuff just to be brushed off because a dragon is unique/cool :s
I kept tabs on who's winning or not but it's really obvious after a few pages who's going to win. Anyway...how is having 100/100/100 isn't super broken but probably isn't needed on something like a Poison/Dragon.
Poison/Dragon: 32
Poison/Ground: 24
Poison/Electric: 11
Poison/Dark: 9
Poison/Steel: 4
Poison: 10
Poison/Dragon: 32
Poison/Ground: 24
Poison/Electric: 11
Poison/Dark: 9
Poison/Steel: 4
Poison: 10
POISON/GROUND
Dragon
Good thing this just tries to get in quickly, can set something up instantly afterwards and swithout, because Ice and Ground weakness is ugly for something meant primarily to wall. However, the Pluses of this typing has been said about "a million" times in this thread and probably should not be repeated.
Good thing this just tries to get in quickly, can set something up instantly afterwards and swithout, because Ice and Ground weakness is ugly for something meant primarily to wall. However, the Pluses of this typing has been said about "a million" times in this thread and probably should not be repeated.
Dragon
I voted for this last poll, and I'm going to keep supporting it. Everything that I had to say about it has been said already.
I voted for this last poll, and I'm going to keep supporting it. Everything that I had to say about it has been said already.
For some reason I want this to be fast.
Possibly faster than Garchomp.
A spread like:
105/60/95/101/89/110 would be cool.
Of course there wasn't much thought put in that spread.
Except for the fact that 101 SpAtk sounds cool.
Possibly faster than Garchomp.
A spread like:
105/60/95/101/89/110 would be cool.
Of course there wasn't much thought put in that spread.
Except for the fact that 101 SpAtk sounds cool.
Dragon
Good STAB
Good flavor
Good resistances...
This seems like a pretty obvious choice.
Good STAB
Good flavor
Good resistances...
This seems like a pretty obvious choice.
To be fair DJD, while 70% of pokemon are using an ice move it is still only 2x effective and we haven't even factored in his possible defenses to deal with them. You selected electric which would mean that glowing weakness of 4x ground. About 40% of the OU pokemon listed on Smogon's site use a ground move and most of them have a heavy STAB attached to it. How many of the ice pokemon have STAB to their ice move; Weavile, Abomansnow? Granted, a high special attack can still make the attack hurt but, I am just saying that the risk is worth the reward for the dragon type.
That's true. Most people carry Ice moves on the assumption that it will be 4x effective on stuff like Garchomp, Salamence, and Gliscor. In those cases, an unstabbed love tap from Ice Fang, HP-Ice, and Ice Shard is capable of doing big damage. Against a decently defensive poke, a 2x hit from those moves is not the kiss of death I might have made it out to be.
However, many of those unstabbed ice attacks are coming from big attack stats like Zapdos, Magnezone, or a DDGyar. Even unstabbed, they will hurt when the damage is doubled.
Your point is true though -- most pokes are packing Ice because it deals 4x to many threats, not just 2x. Therefore, this Dragon could fare much better than others.
But my argument about EQ still stands. Whether it is 2x or 4x -- EQ is going to hurt like hell, stabbed or not. EQ is 100 BP, unlike a dainty little 65 BP Ice Fang. Very few pokes can take an SE Earthquake and live to fight another turn. Unless we make this thing defensive like Metagross (I hope not), I don't see it taking any EQ's in stride. Therefore, a 4x weakness to EQ really doesn't seem like much extra baggage for Poison/Electric. This pokemon should fear EQ from just about everyone, regardless of the secondary type we choose.
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