CAP 5 CAP 5 - Complete Movepool Submissions

[Legacy Raider]

Granbull do learns Flamethrower as well as Fire Blast and Overheat =/. Rotom doesn't count because you're forced to accept the move if you want it to change, and it delete itself upon changing back and/or into another form. Primeape probably learns Overheat because of it's personality. If you're going to used the magnetize volcanic creature gimmick, then Lava Plume should obivously be within it's movepool. Hell Flamethrower and Fire Blast should make a return visit to his movepool because volcanic explaintion = acceptable view on fire moves.

Mr Goodbar clearly says that he doesn't have Overheat for flavour reasons, but rather for competitive reasons. You are trying to convince him to put on Flamethrower and Fire Blast for flavour reasons, when the only reason he doesn't have them is because he thinks they will be too powerful for Rockmon.
And I had the exact same thing in my movepool - Overheat but no other Fire move. It will make those with good prediction and skill be able to utilize Overheat to beat its counters, whereas Flamethrower and Fire Blast would make it just too easy to throw out a Fire move predicting a Scizor or Metagross.

 

[Petope]

Mmmkay. Here's my movepool.

Level Up list:

Heart Scale: Weather Ball
Heart Scale: Sandstorm
Heart Scale: Razor Wind
- Scratch
- Glare
- Mud Slap
5. Glare
8. Mud Slap
15. Power Gem
20. Magnet Rise
25. Mud Shot
30. Disable
35. Magnet Bomb
40. Ancientpower
45. Metal Sound
50. "Ancient Beam"
55. Head Smash

I tried to suggest that Rockmon has latent weather related abilities with the Heart Scale moves which is the only way I see to reliably include Weather Ball, which can be competitive in a Sandstorm.

The other two competitive moves are Ancientpower and "Ancient Beam" - I would support a change of name.

TM/HM List:

  TM02 - Dragon Claw
TM03 - Water Pulse
TM04 - Calm Mind
TM06 - Toxic
TM07 - Hail
TM10 - Hidden Power
TM11 - Sunny Day
TM13 - Ice Beam
TM15 - Hyper Beam
TM17 - Protect
TM18 - Rain Dance
TM19 - Giga Drain
TM21 - Frustration
TM22 - SolarBeam
TM24 - Thunderbolt
TM26 - Earthquake
TM27 - Return
TM28 - Dig
TM29 - Psychic
TM30 - Shadow Ball
TM31 - Brick Break
TM32 - Double Team
TM34 - Shock Wave
TM37 - Sandstorm
TM39 - Rock Tomb
TM40 - Aerial Ace
TM42 - Facade
TM43 - Secret Power
TM44 - Rest
TM52 - Focus Blast
TM53 - Energy Ball
TM54 - False Swipe
TM56 - Fling
TM57 - Charge Beam
TM58 - Endure
TM59 - Dragon Pulse
TM64 – Explosion
TM65 - Shadow Claw
TM68 - Giga Impact
TM69 - Rock Polish
TM71 - Stone Edge
TM72 - Avalanche
TM73 - Thunder Wave
TM74 - Gyro Ball
TM75 - Swords Dance
TM76 - Stealth Rock
TM79 - Dark Pulse
TM80 - Rock Slide
TM81 - X-scissor
TM82 - Sleep Talk
TM83 - Natural Gift
TM89 - U-turn
TM90 - Substitute
TM91 - Flash Cannon
HM01 - Cut
HM06 - Rock Smash
HM08 - Rock Climb

The only notable exceptions are Thunder (which I thought wouldn't fit since Blizzard is not allowed) and Fire moves. Rockmon has almost perfect coverage otherwise. If people really want a reliable Fire move then Weather Ball can be used under Sunny Day, or they can use Hidden Power.

Taunt is not included, but Stealth Rock is.

Move Tutor List:

 - Air Cutter
- Ancientpower
- Earth Power
- Fury Cutter
- Icy Wind
- Iron Head
- Magnet Rise
- Mud-slap
- Ominous Wind
- Signal Beam
- Snore
- Swift
- Vacuum Wave

A few Technician-able gems here, excuse the pun. I doubt it'll be enough to make Technician competitive over Levitate but if people want me to, I can remove Thunderbolt or Ice Beam.


Please comment/criticise and ask if you want anything removed or added in order to make it the movepool for you.

This moveset is right now my biggest favorite by far.
It has Disable, Weatherball and Glare witch is fun moves that makes it more versitile (and able to try some gimmick movesets too) and lets it have a big movepool but not a broken one. Especially with no Fire moves other than HP Fire in the movepool. I also love that it "could" go physical with moves as Sword dance and Head Smash I also like that it doesn't have Taunt or any of the Screens.
Keep Thunderbolt and Ice Beam, Technician has alredy good useage with AP, Vacuum Wave, Giga Drain and Charge Beam to just name a few options.

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

Mr Goodbar clearly says that he doesn't have Overheat for flavour reasons, but rather for competitive reasons. You are trying to convince him to put on Flamethrower and Fire Blast for flavour reasons, when the only reason he doesn't have them is because he thinks they will be too powerful for Rockmon.

Too powerful? Competitively speaking, neither move is too powerful on Rockmon. Having Flamerthrowr and/or Fire Blast does not make him anymore broken than it already is. I was trying to convince him of adding Lava Plume into it's movepool for both competitive and flavor reason if he doesn't like FT and FB.

And I had the exact same thing in my movepool - Overheat but no other Fire move. It will make those with good prediction and skill be able to utilize Overheat to beat its counters, whereas Flamethrower and Fire Blast would make it just too easy to throw out a Fire move predicting a Scizor or Metagross.

Uh....you still have to predict if an incoming Scizor/Metagross is coming. Using any fire move risk giving Scarftran a free switch in. You also risk having to flee as some Bulky Water come onto your fire move of choice and walling you. Flamethrower and Fire Blast do not ease the pain of prediction.

I might do EP, if enough people want it, but you're not using EP over ancient beam unless you plan on using some set with all 3. Personally I don't think it's that necessary, but maybe it's more useful without a fire move that doesn't lower your spatk.

I'm assumed most people do want Earth Power on Rockmon, unless they wanted to do some extreme mold breaker and did a Volbeat (All your good attacks on the wrong side of the damage chart). EP is quite necessary on plenty of Rockmon movesets, it's not like its only going to run Sub/CM for the rest of it's life.

Well flavorwise how is this thing producing fire?

Explain to me how Golem (seriously, wtf!!), Bastiodon, T-tar, Aggron, and Aerodactly use Flamethrower and/or Fire Blast and then we'll talk turkey. I suggested Lava Plume because you're using volcanoes as you're reasoning for Overheat, FT and FB just go along for the ride and make better competitive moves in the process.

 

[Legacy Raider]

Too powerful? Competitively speaking, neither move is too powerful on Rockmon. Having Flamerthrowr and/or Fire Blast does not make him anymore broken than it already is. I was trying to convince him of adding Lava Plume into it's movepool for both competitive and flavor reason if he doesn't like FT and FB.

Uh....you still have to predict if an incoming Scizor/Metagross is coming. Using any fire move risk giving Scarftran a free switch in. You also risk having to flee as some Bulky Water come onto your fire move of choice and walling you. Flamethrower and Fire Blast do not ease the pain of prediction.

Yes, actually, Fire Blast and Flamethrower are both more powerful moves than Overheat. Perhaps not in base power, but the fact remains that you can use Fire Blast on the off chance that Scizor might switch in, and if he doesn't then you can continue sweeping with your other moves.
Overheat does not give this luxury of mis-prediction. You think Scizor is coming in and Overheat. He doesn't, and now you have a severely weakened Special Sweeper who has to switch out because of the SpA drop.

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

Yes, actually, Fire Blast and Flamethrower are both more powerful moves than Overheat. Perhaps not in base power, but the fact remains that you can use Fire Blast on the off chance that Scizor might switch in, and if he doesn't then you can continue sweeping with your other moves.

Key phase: Off chance. They're an off chance that a Bulky Water or Flash Fire user come in and possibly force you out or risk death. FT and FB isn't going to break this Pokemon. Those two move will not ease the pain of making predictions any more than Overheat does.

Overheat does not give this luxury of mis-prediction. You think Scizor is coming in and Overheat. He doesn't, and now you have a severely weakened Special Sweeper who has to switch out because of the SpA drop.

So...handing out harsh penalties for mis-predicting = Good? I don't think CAP5's counters need any more help than what the community already did for them. This floating pile of Rocks already have enough viable counters to handle it, adding more seem unnecessary to me.

 

[Legacy Raider]

Key phase: Off chance. They're an off chance that a Bulky Water or Flash Fire user come in and possibly force you out or risk death. FT and FB isn't going to break this Pokemon. Those two move will not ease the pain of making predictions any more than Overheat does.

FB and Flamethrower will make predictions easier and will make it more powerful, I don't know how you aren't seeing this. Once you have used Overheat, your sweep is over. Your damage output is slashed and you need to switch out. Using Overheat requires considerably greater skill because of this one reason, which in turn makes it a lot less effective for the average player.
I'm going to make up a scenario to illustrate my point. You bring in Rockmon on say, Gyarados. You predict the Scizor coming in to absorb your expected Rock move and use Overheat. Instead of the Scizor, a Tyranitar switches in, laughs at your Overheat, and then Pursuits you to hell because your Earth Powers are doing squat.
With Fire Blast, you can still hit Tyranitar with a full powered move even after your mis-prediction, which is what makes Fire Blast such a more powerful and effective move than Overheat.

I realise that we have a difference of opinion on whether Flamethrower and Fire Blast make this pokemon broken, but you cannot continue to say that Overheat is just as easy to use as the other two fire moves, because the fact is it is not.


EDIT: Sorry to drag this argument on, but I want to make sure that I get my point across. Your example of a Flash Fire user coming in to absorb the Fire move and then punishing Rockmon illustrates what I'm trying to say perfectly. Heatran comes in on an Fire Blast, it still has to face the prospect of eating full powered Earth Powers. If, on the other hand, Heatran switched in on Overheat, Rockmon's Earth Power cannot OHKO.
It is this sort of high risk high reward playing that Overheat encourages, since the mistakes cost you so much more. That is why I am keeping other Fire moves out of my movepool.

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

FB and Flamethrower will make predictions easier and will make it more powerful, I don't know how you aren't seeing this.

It's because I don't trust theorymoning all that much. I prefer to have actual prove before believing in anything. The only way we will know if you're right or not is to actually test it and see the results. We do have a revision thread we know, we can alway fix CAP5 if proven broken.

I'm going to make up a scenario to illustrate my point. You bring in Rockmon on say, Gyarados. You predict the Scizor coming in to absorb your expected Rock move and use Overheat. Instead of the Scizor, a Tyranitar switches in, laughs at your Overheat, and then Pursuits you to hell because your Earth Powers are doing squat. With Fire Blast, you can still hit Tyranitar with a full powered move even after your mis-prediction, which is what makes Fire Blast such a more powerful and effective move than Overheat.

Problem with your scenario is that it doesn't have Earth Power assuming we're using Goodbar's movepool. In that scenario you would have to switch out regardless of having Overheat and/or Fire Blast as you have no way of stopping T-Tar. You have to think that if one predicts you using a fire move to tag said counter, he/she could keep Dos in to absorb said fire move and Waterfall you to death.

BTW Scizor is 2HKO'd by Rockmon's stab move anyway, so if you have a feeling Scizor is coming one could just use your Rock move of choice and try to nail that mantis.

As for this thing needing less counters - with Flamethrower and FB this thing Doesn't have any surefire counters. Many revenge killers yes, but nothing can switch in safely and force Rockmon out.

Blissey, Snorlax, Cresseila, Revvy, Machamp, Swampert, Suicune, and Vaporeon don't count as relible switch in materials anymore? Granted the list is based around Rockmon using a Rock/Ground/Fire moveset, but not every Pokemon have surefire counters for everything.

 

[jagged_angel]

This moveset is right now my biggest favorite by far.
It has Disable, Weatherball and Glare witch is fun moves that makes it more versitile (and able to try some gimmick movesets too) and lets it have a big movepool but not a broken one. Especially with no Fire moves other than HP Fire in the movepool. I also love that it "could" go physical with moves as Sword dance and Head Smash I also like that it doesn't have Taunt or any of the Screens.
Keep Thunderbolt and Ice Beam, Technician has alredy good useage with AP, Vacuum Wave, Giga Drain and Charge Beam to just name a few options.

Thanks for supporting this movepool Petope :-) I'm glad you noticed it has moves and combinations of moves that no one else's does. I agree that no Fire moves is enough of a coverage limit, I won't remove Thunderbolt or Ice Beam. If there is support I would consider adding Overheat due to it's limitations which Legacy Rider already eloquently pointed out.

Once you have used Overheat, your sweep is over. Your damage output is slashed and you need to switch out.

Word. This is so different to Flamethrower/FB. I don't know how you can't see that G_T. As for this thing needing less counters - with Flamethrower and FB this thing Doesn't have any surefire counters. Many revenge killers yes, but nothing can switch in safely and force Rockmon out.

 

[Goodbar]

It's just FB and flamethrower have less consequences when you predict wrong, and neither one forces you to switch out afterwards, and the power to stay in is probably going to be important on some of rockmon's sets.

Explain to me how Golem (seriously, wtf!!), Bastiodon, T-tar, Aggron, and Aerodactly use Flamethrower and/or Fire Blast and then we'll talk turkey. I suggested Lava Plume because you're using volcanoes as you're reasoning for Overheat, FT and FB just go along for the ride and make better competitive moves in the process.

Simple, they all have mouths ?_?, I'm not sure how they produce fire within themselves but they have they the mouths to emit fire. Rockmon has no mouth so flavorwise I don't think think any fire move but overheat fits, and convienently it is the only one I want

EDIT: Also I will add EP, I guess it's a move that allows it to OHKO heatrans and hits metagross/jirachi that could help it alot, and its not OHKOing the latter two anyways

EDIT2: I assume a good portion of voters are going to be too lazy to look through the entire movesets, are important omitted/included moves going to be made obvious in some way in the polls?

EDIT3: Overheat activates flash fire but does not lower the spatk

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

Simple, they all have mouths ?_?, I'm not sure how they produce fire within themselves but they have mouths to emit fire. Rockmon has no mouth so flavorwise I don't think think any fire move but overheat fits, and conveniently it is the only one I want

Lava Plume fits if you're using the volcanic theme. You said it yourself that you're not sure how a Rock pokemon could produce fires, but it's easy to explain how Rockmon used Lava Plume (hint: Earth Power). BTW you are forced to switch out if you're using a Choice set and/or up against something you know you can't kill with your other moves.

I assume a good portion of voters are going to be too lazy to look through the entire movesets, are important omitted/included moves going to be made obvious in some way in the polls?

Assuming TL takes your submitted movepool and just copy&paste it onto the first post for all to see then yes...they're possibly made obvious. They're probably a good chance said TL go through the hassle of identifying every important omitted/included within each movepool to better give voters options within the poll.

Overheat activates flash fire but does not lower the spatk

Wow...really. That sorta make no sense based on how I view Overheat but whatever, it's Pokemon.

 

[Goodbar]

It does fit somewhat I suppose, I'm not sure I want it because of the controversy over your move. However Lava Plume is something most of the stated counters that suffered from the rock move's side effect would want to avoid anyways. *shrugs*

 

[Legacy Raider]

Changed a good few things: removed Astonish from Level Up moves. Added Copycat and Fake Out to Level Up moves. Added Calm Mind, Ice Beam, Torment, Thief, Focus Blast, and Fling to TM/HM learnset. Added Icy Wind to Tutor learnset.

First of all, the level up moves:

H  - [URL="http://www.smogon.com/dp/moves/teeter_dance"]Teeter Dance[/URL]
H  - [URL="http://www.smogon.com/dp/moves/copycat"]Copycat[/URL]
1  - [URL="http://www.smogon.com/dp/moves/sharpen"]Sharpen[/URL]
1  - [URL="http://www.smogon.com/dp/moves/tackle"]Tackle[/URL]
6  - [URL="http://www.smogon.com/dp/moves/fake_out"]Fake Out[/URL]
11 - [URL="http://www.smogon.com/dp/moves/rock_throw"]Rock Throw[/URL]
17 - [URL="http://www.smogon.com/dp/moves/mirror_shot"]Mirror Shot[/URL]
23 - [URL="http://www.smogon.com/dp/moves/confusion"]Confusion[/URL]
28 - [URL="http://www.smogon.com/dp/moves/discharge"]Discharge[/URL]
34 - [URL="http://www.smogon.com/dp/moves/metal_sound"]Metal Sound[/URL]*
39 - [URL="http://www.smogon.com/dp/moves/weather_ball"]Weather Ball[/URL]*
46 - [COLOR="Red"][U]Ancient Beam[/U][/COLOR]*

* = competitively viable move
[QUOTE]
Originally Posted by Fat [B]Deck Knight
[I][COLOR="Red"]Ancient Beam[/COLOR][/I][/B]
Type: Rock
BP: 85
PP: 15
Acc: 100%
Damage: Special
Effect: 20% chance to reduce opponent's attack by 1.[/QUOTE]

^ I think "Paleo Laser/Wave/Blast" might sound better, but this is left for the name discussion.

Metal Sound will allow it to do its job much better, and also force switched.
When use in Sandstorm, Weather Ball becomes his most powerful special STAB attack at 100 BP. Also, when used in Sun and Rain, it becomes its most reliable Fire and Water attack respectively.
This will increase its viability by allowing it to be very effective in Sandstorm or Sunny Day teams.

e.g. Sunny Day Sweeper - Levitate; Weather Ball (Fire), Solarbeam, Ancient Beam, Filler.

Another interesting option that I have given Rockmon is Copycat. This is never seen in competitive play, even though things like Blissey and Lucario can learn it. What it does, for those of you who can't guess, is repeat the last move used successfully. A bit like the Mirror Moves those annoying Spearow used to do all those years ago. But Copycat does open up great options for this pokemon. For example, this new Tricking trend that is going around - Rockmon can use that to its advantage. Say your opponent has Gengar out, and you predict a Trick. You can switch in Rockmon and have Gengar trick Specs/Scarf/Black Sludge onto you. Then Gengar will infallibly switch, allowing you to use Copycat and Trick your item right back onto the incoming Blissey or Snorlax. Copycat can also be used with Lum Berry to make a great anti-status poke - come in on Gengar(lol) while it uses Hypnosis, take the sleep, recover the sleep, and then put your opponent's incoming poke straight to sleep. Can also be used to steal Stat Boosts - Nasty Plot Togekiss for example. This shows that Copycat can have endless options that can be used to seriously surprise an opponent.

Fake Out alongside its great speed might seem pointless, and it mostly is because of Rockmon's low attack. However, this will allow it to break the Focus Sash of almost any lead, and then strike first. This one move alone might restrain the Suicide Lead trend.

*It can learn Ancientpower and Earth Power as tutor moves, so don't think I've missed them out.

Next, the TMs and HMs:

[SIZE="1"]TM01 - Focus Punch
TM02 - Dragon Claw
TM03 - Water Pulse
TM04 - [/SIZE][B][URL="http://www.smogon.com/dp/moves/calm_mind"]Calm Mind[/URL][/B]*[SIZE="1"]
TM05 - Roar
TM06 - [/SIZE][B][URL="http://www.smogon.com/dp/moves/toxic"]Toxic[/URL][/B]
[SIZE="1"]TM07 - Hail
TM08 - Bulk Up
TM09 - Bullet Seed
TM10 - [/SIZE][B][URL="http://http://www.smogon.com/dp/moves/hidden_power"]Hidden Power[/URL][/B]*
[SIZE="1"]TM11 - [/SIZE][B][URL="http://http://www.smogon.com/dp/moves/sunny_day"]Sunny Day[/URL][/B]
[SIZE="1"]TM12 - Taunt
TM13 - [/SIZE][B][URL="http://www.smogon.com/dp/moves/ice_beam"]Ice Beam[/URL][/B]*[SIZE="1"]
TM14 - Blizzard
TM15 - [/SIZE][B][URL="http://www.smogon.com/dp/moves/hyper_beam"]Hyper Beam[/URL][/B]
[SIZE="1"]TM16 - Light Screen
TM17 - [/SIZE][B][URL="http://www.smogon.com/dp/moves/protect"]Protect[/URL][/B]
[SIZE="1"]TM18 - [/SIZE][B][URL="http://www.smogon.com/dp/moves/rain_dance"]Rain Dance[/URL][/B]
[SIZE="1"]TM19 - [/SIZE][B][URL="http://www.smogon.com/dp/moves/giga_drain"]Giga Drain[/URL][/B]*
[SIZE="1"]TM20 - Safeguard
TM21 - [/SIZE][B][URL="http://www.smogon.com/dp/moves/frustration"]Frustration[/URL][/B]
[SIZE="1"]TM22 - [/SIZE][B][URL="http://www.smogon.com/dp/moves/solarbeam"]SolarBeam[/URL][/B]
[SIZE="1"]TM23 - Iron Tail
TM24 - [/SIZE][B][URL="http://www.smogon.com/dp/moves/thunderbolt"]Thunderbolt[/URL][/B]*
[SIZE="1"]TM25 - [/SIZE][B][URL="http://www.smogon.com/dp/moves/thunder"]Thunder[/URL][/B]
[SIZE="1"]TM26 - [/SIZE][B][URL="http://www.smogon.com/dp/moves/earthquake"]Earthquake[/URL][/B]
[SIZE="1"]TM27 - [/SIZE][B][URL="http://www.smogon.com/dp/moves/return"]Return[/URL][/B]
[SIZE="1"]TM28 - Dig
TM29 - Psychic
TM30 -[/SIZE] [B][URL="http://www.smogon.com/dp/moves/shadow_ball"]Shadow Ball[/URL][/B]*
[SIZE="1"]TM31 - Brick Break
TM32 -[/SIZE] [B][URL="http://www.smogon.com/dp/moves/double_team"]Double Team[/URL][/B]
[SIZE="1"]TM33 - Reflect
TM34 -[/SIZE] [B][URL="http://www.smogon.com/dp/moves/shock_wave"]Shock Wave[/URL][/B]
[SIZE="1"]TM35 - Flamethrower
TM36 - Sludge Bomb
TM37 - [/SIZE][B][URL="http://www.smogon.com/dp/moves/sandstorm"]Sandstorm[/URL][/B]
[SIZE="1"]TM38 - Fire Blast[/SIZE]
[SIZE="1"]TM39 - [/SIZE][B][URL="http://www.smogon.com/dp/moves/rock_tomb"]Rock Tomb[/URL][/B]
[SIZE="1"]TM40 - Aerial Ace
TM41 - [/SIZE][B][URL="http://www.smogon.com/dp/moves/torment"]Torment[/URL][/B][SIZE="1"]
TM42 - [/SIZE][B][URL="http://www.smogon.com/dp/moves/facade"]Facade[/URL][/B]
[SIZE="1"]TM43 - [/SIZE][B][URL="http://www.smogon.com/dp/moves/secret_power"]Secret Power[/URL][/B]
[SIZE="1"]TM44 - [/SIZE][B][URL="http://www.smogon.com/dp/moves/rest"]Rest[/URL][/B]
[SIZE="1"]TM45 - Attract
TM46 - [/SIZE][B][URL="http://www.smogon.com/dp/moves/thief"]Thief[/URL][/B][SIZE="1"]
TM47 - Steel Wing
TM48 - Skill Swap
TM49 - Snatch
TM50 - [/SIZE][B][URL="http://www.smogon.com/dp/moves/overheat"]Overheat[/URL][/B]*
[SIZE="1"]TM51 - Roost
TM52 - [/SIZE][B][URL=""http://www.smogon.com/dp/moves/focus_blast"]Focus Blast[/URL][/B]*[SIZE="1"]
TM53 - [/SIZE][B][URL="http://www.smogon.com/dp/moves/energy_ball"]Energy Ball[/URL][/B]*
[SIZE="1"]TM54 - [/SIZE][B][URL="http://www.smogon.com/dp/moves/false_swipe"]False Swipe[/URL][/B]
[SIZE="1"]TM55 - Brine
TM56 - [/SIZE][B][URL=""http://www.smogon.com/dp/moves/fling"]Fling[/URL][/B][SIZE="1"]
TM57 - [/SIZE][B][URL="http://www.smogon.com/dp/moves/charge_beam"]Charge Beam[/URL][/B]*
[SIZE="1"]TM58 - [/SIZE][B][URL="http://www.smogon.com/dp/moves/endure"]Endure[/URL][/B]
[SIZE="1"]TM59 - [/SIZE][B][URL="http://www.smogon.com/dp/moves/dragon_pulse"]Dragon Pulse[/URL][/B]
[SIZE="1"]TM60 - Drain Punch
TM61 - Will-o-wisp
TM62 - Silver Wind[/SIZE]
[SIZE="1"]TM63 - [/SIZE][B][URL="http://www.smogon.com/dp/moves/embargo"]Embargo[/URL][/B]
[SIZE="1"]TM64 - [/SIZE][B][URL="http://www.smogon.com/dp/moves/explosion"]Explosion[/URL][/B]*
[SIZE="1"]TM65 - Shadow Claw
TM66 - Payback
TM67 - Recycle[/SIZE]
[SIZE="1"]TM68 - [/SIZE][B][URL="http://www.smogon.com/dp/moves/giga_impact"]Giga Impact[/URL][/B]
[SIZE="1"]TM69 -[/SIZE] [B][URL="http://www.smogon.com/dp/moves/rock_polish"]Rock Polish[/URL][/B]
[SIZE="1"]TM70 - Flash[/SIZE]
[SIZE="1"]TM71 - [/SIZE][B][URL="http://www.smogon.com/dp/moves/stone_edge"]Stone Edge[/URL][/B]
[SIZE="1"]TM72 - Avalanche
TM73 - Thunder Wave[/SIZE]
[SIZE="1"]TM74 - [/SIZE][B][URL="http://www.smogon.com/dp/moves/gyro_ball"]Gyro Ball[/URL][/B]
[SIZE="1"]TM75 - Swords Dance[/SIZE]
[SIZE="1"]TM76 - [/SIZE][B][URL="http://www.smogon.com/dp/moves/stealth_rock"]Stealth Rock[/URL][/B]*
[SIZE="1"]TM77 - Psych Up
TM78 - Captivate[/SIZE]
[SIZE="1"]TM79 - [/SIZE][B][URL="http://www.smogon.com/dp/moves/dark_pulse"]Dark Pulse[/URL][/B]*
[SIZE="1"]TM80 - [/SIZE][B][URL="http://www.smogon.com/dp/moves/rock_slide"]Rock Slide[/URL][/B]
[SIZE="1"]TM81 - X-scissor[/SIZE]
[SIZE="1"]TM82 - [/SIZE][B][URL="http://www.smogon.com/dp/moves/sleep_talk"]Sleep Talk[/URL][/B]
[SIZE="1"]TM83 -[/SIZE] [B][URL="http://www.smogon.com/dp/moves/natural_gift"]Natural Gift[/URL][/B]
[SIZE="1"]TM84 - Poison Jab
TM85 - Dream Eater
TM86 - Grass Knot
TM87 - Swagger
TM88 - Pluck[/SIZE]
[SIZE="1"]TM89 - [/SIZE][B][URL="http://www.smogon.com/dp/moves/u-turn"]U-turn[/URL][/B]*
[SIZE="1"]TM90 - [/SIZE][B][URL="http://www.smogon.com/dp/moves/substitute"]Substitute[/URL][/B]*
[SIZE="1"]TM91 -[/SIZE] [B][URL="http://www.smogon.com/dp/moves/flash_cannon"]Flash Cannon[/URL][/B]
[SIZE="1"]TM92 - Trick Room
HM01 - Cut
HM02 - Fly
HM03 - Surf
HM04 - Strength
HM05 - Defog
HM06 - Rock Smash
HM07 - Waterfall[/SIZE]
[SIZE="1"]HM08 -[/SIZE] [B][URL="http://www.smogon.com/dp/moves/rock_climb"]Rock Climb[/URL][/B]

* = competitively viable move

Notable exceptions: Flamethrower, Fire Blast.

Flamethrower/Fire Blast - These two are reliable Fire moves which would give it perfect coverage and make it extremely difficult to counter. Instead, I have allowed it to have Overheat. This is not the sort of attack that can just be thrown out predicting a counter, since if you guess wrong you are forced to switch out.

Using Overheat requires considerably greater skill because of this one reason, which in turn makes it a lot less effective for the average player.
Example scenario: You bring in Rockmon on say, Gyarados. You predict the Scizor coming in to absorb your expected Rock move and use Overheat. Instead of the Scizor, a Tyranitar switches in, laughs at your Overheat, and then Pursuits you to hell because your Earth Powers are doing squat.
With Fire Blast, you can still hit Tyranitar with a full powered move even after your mis-prediction, which is what makes Fire Blast such a more powerful and effective move than Overheat.

The lack of Fire Blast and Flamethrower is to make it easier to switch in Scizor/Metagross against a bad player using Rockmon.

Now for the Platinum Move Tutor moves:

- [B][URL="http://www.smogon.com/dp/moves/air_cutter"]Air Cutter[/URL][/B]*
- [B][URL="http://www.smogon.com/dp/moves/fury_cutter"]Fury Cutter[/URL][/B]
- [B][URL="http://www.smogon.com/dp/moves/knock_off"]Knock Off[/URL][/B]*
- [B][URL="http://www.smogon.com/dp/moves/trick"]Trick[/URL][/B]*
- [B][URL="http://www.smogon.com/dp/moves/vacuum_wave"]Vacuum Wave[/URL][/B]*
- [B][URL="http://www.smogon.com/dp/moves/magnet_rise"]Magnet Rise[/URL][/B]*
- [B][URL="http://www.smogon.com/dp/moves/swift"]Swift[/URL][/B]
- [B][URL="http://www.smogon.com/dp/moves/ancientpower"]Ancientpower[/URL][/B]**
- [B][URL="http://www.smogon.com/dp/moves/earth_power"]Earth Power[/URL][/B]**
- [B][URL="http://www.smogon.com/dp/moves/iron_head"]Iron Head[/URL][/B]
- [B][URL="http://www.smogon.com/dp/moves/signal_beam"]Signal Beam[/URL][/B]
- [B][URL="http://www.smogon.com/dp/moves/snore"]Snore[/URL][/B]
- [B][URL="http://www.smogon.com/dp/moves/mud_slap"]Mud Slap[/URL][/B]
- [B][URL=""http://www.smogon.com/dp/moves/icy_wind"]Icy Wind[/URL][/B]

* = competitively viable move
** = very viable move

Air Cutter lets it use a base 82 Special Flying move when using Technician, and Vacuum Wave allows it to use a base 60 Special Fighting priority move.
Knock Off and Trick give it some interesting support options.
Magnet Rise lets it have a temporary Ground immunity while using Technician. Icy Wind makes a decent alternative option to ICe Beam when using Technician.

-----

That's my movepool entry. I'm open to all suggestions and criticism, thank you.

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

It does fit somewhat I suppose, I'm not sure I want it because of the controversy over your move. However Lava Plume is something most of the stated counters that suffered from the rock move's side effect would want to avoid anyways. *shrugs*

The controversy over Brimstone was that 30% burn rate and the fact it came from a Rock move and not a tradition fire move. Lava Plume is resisted by three types and is absorb and/or reduced in power by three abilities. Lava Plume is believed to be less "broken" than Brimstone. I still say that if you don't add FT/FB at least consider Lava Plume for use.

 

[Deck Knight]

Will-o-Wisp is considered banned from Rockmon's movepool by Tennisace since it wasn't mentioned specify within the support move thread.

Still like the idea of adding Discharge/Lava Plume in CAP5's movepool, mostly Lava Plume for reasons that should be obivous >_>

So we'll basically defy all canonical convention (only electrics get Discharge and Fires Lava Plume) to give a pokemon that really doesn't need it 30% statuses?

Yeah, great, just what we need: More fanboyism in CAP.

While we're at it just throw the elemental fangs on there too. It doesn't have teeth, but whatever d00d, its for competitive reasons and flavor shouldn't matter.

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

So we'll basically defy all canonical convention (only electrics get Discharge and Fires Lava Plume) to give a Pokemon that really doesn't need it 30% statuses?

Erh...the Nosepass and Porygon family have Discharge, and Nosepass is a freaking Rock type =/. There is enough of a precedence to say that Rockmon can learn Discharge. Lava Plume has a different story despite being a competitively good move, but anything can be justify with a little imagination.

Edit: Porygon2 do use Discharge within it's main moveset, and Probopass can use it for paralysis hax&dealing with water types.

 

[billymills]

I'm pretty sure porygon and nosepass don't get those moves for competetive reasons. The get it for flavor, which does have an impact on who gets what.

Lava plume is a terrible idea, and should not be allowed at all. Discharge isn't great, but could be looked past.

 

[Deck Knight]

Erh...the Nosepass and Porygon family have Discharge, and Nosepass is a freaking Rock type =/. There is enough of a precedence to say that Rockmon can learn Discharge. Lava Plume is slightly different but anything can be justify with a little imagination, beside...this project is called "Break the mold" for a reason.

"Break the mold" is the new slogan for laziness.

Why aren't we giving this Hydro Pump. Relicanth learns it. How about Wood Hammer? Sudowoodo does. We'll be Breaking the Mold, see. (Yes, I realize these would have come up in Competitive attack discussion topics. That wasn't really my point.)

 

[speedwobbles225]

Do we have to eliminate as many fucking counters as possible?

It already gets a tech boosted hidden power of choice along with some insane looking movepools. It doesn't need any fire moves.

Can we just have one CAP where we don't eliminate every visible handicap

 

[Darkflagrance]

There is a reason why we have a ton of movepool submissions. If you don't like the movepool with Lava Plume and Flamethrower, then don't vote for it.

That said, everyone's vision for this pokemon is different, whether it be competitively or with regards to flavor, and this is reflected in the different movepools. While it is nice of GT to try to accomodate so many people's inputs, in the end it comes down to a subjective idea. So, I ask GT to hold firm and not change the movepools.

The only restrictions on the movepools as stated in the rules are that competitive moves voted down or not voted on at all cannot appear in them, and that certain areas of the movepools are restricted in the number of competitive moves. Other than that, it comes down to subjectiveness and some vague Nintendo precedents that Nintendo itself has a tendency to disrespect.

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

Do we have to eliminate as many fucking counters as possible?

Well no but spring boarding from this do we have jam like 15+ "counters" onto every CAP project we do? Seriously, quality over quantity when thinking about what you want to counter it.

Would it be possible to do a thread specifically for discussing viable counters for each CAP Pokemon we create? It probably sound unnecessary but hey, it was only a suggestion anyway.

Watch how someone says "I told you so" or something similar for making this statement.

 

[Goodbar]

Do we have to eliminate as many fucking counters as possible?

It already gets a tech boosted hidden power of choice along with some insane looking movepools. It doesn't need any fire moves.

Can we just have one CAP where we don't eliminate every visible handicap

this

While I think it's reasonable to not give it a lot of counters, I think CAP sometimes likes to go overboard, especially on rockmon who has a pretty sure counter in blissey which is freaking everyone out. In my movepool I caved in a little more admittingly, but I still have probably one of the more conservative movepools...

 

[Vividsketch]

Ok, first before I go over any changes to my Move Set List, I'd like to add my view on this flavor debate over Lave Plume and Discharge (as they are kind of important to the function of my set, hehe). But what I have to say may well count for any moves or suggestion made for ANY pokemon at all.

If a suggestion is made of any kind in regards to the function of a pokemon, you are of course entitled to an opinion, and have the right (or near obligation on these boards!!) to express that opinion. But simply if a suggestion is made that doesn't fit your "vision" more this pokemon is not grands all alone for disregarding it. Flavor arguments are subjective, there is no doubting that. But if somebody gives perfectly reasonable (and were all mature enough to understand what is and is not reasonable) grounds for something, then you can not simply insist that it can't be included just because you don't like it.

That said, I feel that saying that the idea of a plausibly "electromagnetically charged, levitating, volcanic rock monster (aka, Rockmon)" emitting a "build up of static energy (aka, Discharge)" or "an over flow of volcanic vapor (aka Lava Plume)" is ridiculous.....is just unfair. (My apologies for that sentence. You made need to re-read is a couple times, lol). Be fair and at LEAST see how this makes some sense. And don't just throw it out because you "don't like it". It's not unreasonable. At least argue it from a competitive point of view first.


Anyway on to the task at hand.

I agree that the inclusion of Will'o'Wisp is a bit too much. And have thus taken it out.
I would also like those of you apposed to Discharge and Lave plume (competitively) to note, that my TM list is rather stripped back. And there for is in a bit of need for these two moves. Further more note that Lava Plume is the ONLY fire move out side of Hidden Power included at all. So no need to fear Flamethrower, Fire Blast or Over Heat.

Also what is the general view on Vacuum Wave and Trick? because I'm hesitant about their place on this thing.

For those in fear of the "Screens", I have only included Reflect and not Light Sceen. Will gladly remove that as well though if there is enough opposition.

And lastly... There are only 15 Level Up Moves (including heart scale moves) on my set. Leaving room for one more if necessary. If there is ANY other move that that the rest of would like to see on my List, (eg, Weather Ball) I'd be happy to add is as the final Heart Scale Move. Otherwise I'll leave as is for now. Thanks.

Here's it updated.

My Attempts....

Level Up:

H. Magnet Rise
H. Tri Attack
H. ?????????
-- Defensive Curl
-- Rollout
06. Leech Life
10. Disable
16. Mud Shot
21. Power Gem
26. Air Slash
32. Agility
39. Discharge
43. Lave Plume
49. Ancient Beam
55. Metal Sound
61. Head Smash

Notes:
Moves ordered and leveled in what seemed to me the most likely way for this Mon to mature.
Magnet Rise/Tri Attack - Felt both were most appropriate as "indirect" level up moves, thus Heat Scale moves.
Defensive Curl/Rollout - For similar reasons as X-act's. Just imagine RockMon behaving this way at an early level.
Mud Shot/Power Gem - Obligatory Power Gem, but coupled with Mud Shot, awesome early "adolescent" type coverage.
Air Slash - Of all the "slash" moves, this seems the most appropriate and useful to me. No other way to it other then Level Up.
Discharge/Lave Plume - Both highly necessary and key moves in my mind. And both very flavorsome. Nothing quite like being an electromagnetic molten rock monster to let off a bit of pent of energy or vapor!! Also between Lava Plume and Ancient Beam, it is highly reminiscent of the controversial "Brimstone" for those that were fans. Note also that Discharge and Lava Plume or the highest base power moves of their type, outside of Technicianed Hidden Power, that I'm proposing.
Head Smash - Truly is the big "final" yet some what novelty last move so often granted to pokemon as some kind of ironic twist. Most appropriate imo.


Tutor Moves:

Ancientpower
Earth Power
Icy Wind
Signal Beam
Vacuum Wave?
Air Cutter
Trick?
Knock Off
Magnet Rise
Superpower
Swift 
Zen Headbutt
Iron Head
Iron Defense
Gastro Acid
Rollout
Mud-Slap
Uproar
Twister
Fury Cutter

Notes:
Ordered in accordance to general relevance.
Still not at all certain about Vacuum Wave's and Trick's viability. Will happily take them out if there is enough opposition.

TM's:

TM03 - Water Pulse
TM04 - Calm Mind
TM05 - Roar
TM06 - Toxic
TM10 - Hidden Power
TM11 - Sunny Day
TM15 - Hyper Beam
TM17 - Protect
TM18 - Rain Dance
TM19 - Giga Drain
TM20 - Safeguard
TM21 - Frustration
TM22 - SolarBeam
TM26 - Earthquake
TM27 - Return
TM29 - Psychic
TM30 - Shadow Ball
TM32 - Double Team
TM33 - Reflect
TM34 - Shock Wave
TM36 - Sludge Bomb
TM37 - Sandstorm
TM39 - Rock Tomb
TM40 - Aerial Ace
TM41 - Torment
TM42 - Facade
TM43 - Secret Power
TM44 - Rest
TM46 - Thief
TM48 - Skill Swap
TM49 - Snatch
TM53 - Energy Ball
TM54 - False Swipe
TM57 - Charge Beam
TM58 - Endure
TM59 - Dragon Pulse
TM64 - Explosion
TM65 - Shadow Claw
TM67 - Recycle
TM68 - Giga Impact
TM69 - Rock Polish
TM70 - Flash
TM71 - Stone Edge
TM73 - Thunder Wave
TM74 - Gyro Ball
TM75 - Swords Dance
TM76 - Stealth Rock
TM77 - Psych Up
TM79 - Dark Pulse
TM80 - Rock Slide
TM81 - X-scissor
TM82 - Sleep Talk
TM87 - Swagger
TM89 - U-turn
TM90 - Substitute
TM91 - Flash Cannon
HM01 - Cut
HM05 - Defog
HM06 - Rock Smash

Notes:
As to be expected really. Though you may notice that I've omitting the majority of the higher base power moves.
Left in the debatable Calm Mind.
Am happy to part with much of this list (with out compromising Technician too much) for the sake of something shorter and more manageable.


Thought? Suggestions?

Sorry if tl;dr

 

[DougJustDoug]

Would it be possible to do a thread specifically for discussing viable counters for each CAP Pokemon we create? It probably sound unnecessary but hey, it was only a suggestion anyway.

I've actually been thinking about this a lot over the past two CAP's. I am going to post a slew of Policy Review threads when this CAP is competitively complete. I'll add this to the list.

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

For those in fear of the "Screens", I have only included Reflect and not Light Sceen. Will gladly remove that as well though if there is enough opposition.

I don't see the "fear" behind Reflect/Light Screen, but then I also don't have any proof that having the screens will break Rockmon. Maybe people are fearing the Taunt/Reflect/Light Screen/Stealth Rock Rockmon + Revvy combo which is generally made to prevent the lost of Screen via Revvy's immunity to BB, typing, and stats. Who can see, but I do think that you should allow both in and see if they "overpower" it.

And lastly... There are only 15 Level Up Moves (including heart scale moves) on my set. Leaving room for one more if necessary. If there is ANY other move that that the rest of would like to see on my List, (eg, Weather Ball) I'd be happy to add is as the final Heart Scale Move. Otherwise I'll leave as is for now. Thanks.

Weather Ball has alway been an oddball in my mind when thinking of Rockmon. What is it going to use it for? The odd Sunny/Rain/Hail teammate?

 

[jagged_angel]

Weather Ball has alway been an oddball in my mind when thinking of Rockmon. What is it going to use it for? The odd Sunny/Rain/Hail teammate?

Oh, Honestly. Yes it Will be useful on the odd Rain Dance or Sunny Day team but it's Main use will be reliable 100BP 100% Acc Special Rock Move when coupled with Tyranitar or Hippowdon.

I dunno about damage calcs but 100BP over 85/90BP provided by "Ancientbeam" or Ancientpower might make all the difference for KOs on potential switch-ins too.

Weather Ball's base power coupled with Rockmon's Togekiss-like Special Walling capabilities in a Sandstorm means you can expect movepools including it to be significantly more popular with anyone who has thought about Weather Ball's potential.