This is a really interesting idea. I like. One of the good creative ideas I've seen. Also like the shape-shifter idea as well.
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CAP 6 CAP 6 - Concept Submissions
- Thread starter DougJustDoug
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This is a really interesting idea. I like. One of the good creative ideas I've seen. Also like the shape-shifter idea as well.
Alright, expect a sort of a long post here... so if you're not into reading one, I suggest you leave now.
There are oh so many "creative" ideas that we could go with, but I feel that perhaps you could consider a less "creative" one, in lieu of one that would benefit the metagame at large.
It's no small secret that the metagame is largely centralized around physical attacking. They have the easiest time breaking through and making a sweep. And have, in general, better distribution of stat-upping moves such as Swords Dance. A quick look at OU Pokemon used will reveal that the majority of them are of the Physical variety.
Now if you were to look at the physical attackers of OU, it is pretty apparent that they are the more powerful Pokemon compared to their special attacking counterparts (whose usefulness generally stems from the lack of good Special Defense of the majority of OU, rather than raw power). Very rarely does anyone complain about special attackers (atleast those who are good at battling). And that is because of one thing, Blissey. Blissey is such a complete stop to what special attacking has to offer that if one has such a huge special weakness, the only thing you need to add is Blissey and you're good to go. The beauty of Blissey, however, comes in its exploitable weaknesses, and lack of ability to do MUCH of anything but sit there and stall (aside from the gimmicky Calm Mind set).
So I offer to you, my concept submission.
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Name: The Physical Blissey
Description: A Pokemon capable of coming in on the majority of Physical attackers and threatening them in some way.
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This one Pokemon could wildly shake up the Metagame as we know it. Much like Blissey, it should be able to do little offensively, and have fairly few support options, but what it does have ... it should be able to utilize incredibly effectively.
Not only do I believe that this Pokemon would be benificial to the Metagame at large, but I also think that it would be a nice change of pace for the CAP community. I am interested in seeing how the community will go about balancing, while not nerfing, this tentative Pokemon.
Consider the submission... you won't regret it!
There are oh so many "creative" ideas that we could go with, but I feel that perhaps you could consider a less "creative" one, in lieu of one that would benefit the metagame at large.
It's no small secret that the metagame is largely centralized around physical attacking. They have the easiest time breaking through and making a sweep. And have, in general, better distribution of stat-upping moves such as Swords Dance. A quick look at OU Pokemon used will reveal that the majority of them are of the Physical variety.
Now if you were to look at the physical attackers of OU, it is pretty apparent that they are the more powerful Pokemon compared to their special attacking counterparts (whose usefulness generally stems from the lack of good Special Defense of the majority of OU, rather than raw power). Very rarely does anyone complain about special attackers (atleast those who are good at battling). And that is because of one thing, Blissey. Blissey is such a complete stop to what special attacking has to offer that if one has such a huge special weakness, the only thing you need to add is Blissey and you're good to go. The beauty of Blissey, however, comes in its exploitable weaknesses, and lack of ability to do MUCH of anything but sit there and stall (aside from the gimmicky Calm Mind set).
So I offer to you, my concept submission.
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Name: The Physical Blissey
Description: A Pokemon capable of coming in on the majority of Physical attackers and threatening them in some way.
----------------------
This one Pokemon could wildly shake up the Metagame as we know it. Much like Blissey, it should be able to do little offensively, and have fairly few support options, but what it does have ... it should be able to utilize incredibly effectively.
Not only do I believe that this Pokemon would be benificial to the Metagame at large, but I also think that it would be a nice change of pace for the CAP community. I am interested in seeing how the community will go about balancing, while not nerfing, this tentative Pokemon.
Consider the submission... you won't regret it!
Well, this would be an alright concept but what about the predictable CAP6/Blissey walling combo. Though I guess the whole typing thing would need to be discussed first. But it's a good concept never the less.
I could see this working maybe if it shared common weaknesses / counters to Blissey so it there wouldn't be CAP6/Blissey in every team. Then again if they both had a common counter the metagame could overcentralise to that counter...just something to dwell on. I'm tired, so sleepy time for me now.
I agree with what other people are saying, that if this pokemon becomes a physical bliss, everyone will use two slots for bliss/CAP 6. I think this will cause even MORE centralization. It cuts the amount of physical attackers down to those that can deal with CAP 6, or people will just play more special sweepers. But if everyone plays Bliss/Cap 6, That's only 4 slots for any team left, which will be taken up by either the few physical sweepers that can handle CAP 6, the few special sweepers that can handle Blissey, or a mixture of those pokemon. In my opinion, this would over-centralize the metagame. Not to totally plug my concept, but IMHO, a pokemon that has specific counters that don't work in other situations will create more variety, due to the occasional team carrying CAP6 (there's 1 more pokemon right there), and the occasional team carrying on of the few
not-so-useful-otherwise CAP 6 counters, adding more variety. My specific concept being a shapeshifter pokemon, which would demand counters that almost by definition have to not be used otherwise.
Just my 2 cents.
I strongly support the "Physical Blissey" Idea. Looking at the base stats of the current physical walls, such as Skarmory, with 65 HP and 140 Def; Forretress, with 75 HP and 140 Def; Hippowdon, with 108 HP and 118 Def; etc....
Of course, they have tons of immunities to back up. However, there is no such insane pokemon like Blissey (though it never gets to Uber), which has 255 HP and 135 SpD. It has actually the ability to survive a +4 Tri Attack from Porygon-Z.
Edit: Oh yeah, and the move Softboiled is one of the moves that can recover HP without any drawbacks. Yes, Roost may take away Flying type, but also risking Earthquakes and Fighting moves and stuff as well.
Of course, they have tons of immunities to back up. However, there is no such insane pokemon like Blissey (though it never gets to Uber), which has 255 HP and 135 SpD. It has actually the ability to survive a +4 Tri Attack from Porygon-Z.
Edit: Oh yeah, and the move Softboiled is one of the moves that can recover HP without any drawbacks. Yes, Roost may take away Flying type, but also risking Earthquakes and Fighting moves and stuff as well.
First of all , as you said, dont forget the immunities and the resistance. Skarmory may have 65HP/140Def, but it does have that fantastic Steel/Flying type which helps much more than Blissey's Normal type (Blissey should thank her Natural Cure, otherwise she would be along the likes of Pyroak usage-wise). Ok, there is not a specialized physical wall, but it would not be a good thing for the metagame to have, because of the very presence of Blissey.
And, BTW, dont bash about Roost. Roost's side effect helps a lot more often than it hinders. Lugia has Recover, but uses Roost. Guess why.
Alright, I guess I have some defending to do. ^_^
This is obviously where the community would have to put their heads together. I'm actually incredibly interested in how we can make this Pokemon good, and do its job, but without being able to break the Blissey/CAP6 walling combo.
Of course this is true... A team that is built in order to deal with the physical attackers of OU is obviously going to be able to beat the physical attackers of OU... I don't see what you're trying to prove. While physical attackers aren't breaking the metagame anytime soon, but it's very obvious that they are the more dominant force when compared to their special attacking counterparts. Not to mention that it is impossible to cover the majority (not even close) of them without heavy investment in certain Pokemon. Have you ever had this go through your mind? "Well, shit... I'd like to fit 'X' into the team... but I need a Rock resist... a Fighting resist... and a Bug / Steel resist... *sigh* I guess I'll just go with 'the usual'"
I know I have. I think that people get offset by Blissey because it's fairly annoying to get through, but I think that people forget what Blissey allows us to do. Blissey is a rediculously decentralizing force. It allows for "one stop shopping" to the majority of brute force special attackers. It actually allows for MORE diverse team building because now you don't have to dedicate half of your team to taking down special attackers.
Not to mention, those other physical walls can actually do_something in the meantime other than just wall things. Blissey can't really (with the exception of setting up Stealth Rock, but what can't these days?).
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I envision CAP 6 to be very "splashable" in any team. If your team has significant trouble handling physical threats, CAP 6 will fit your 6th slot nicely, much like Blissey to be honest, however it should JUST do what it's supposed to do... handle physical threats. It doesn't need to support, it doesn't need to attack (beyond what is necessary to take down the majority of physical attackers). It just needs to do its job.
With a new Physical wall, we allow our teams to be more diverse on the whole.
Also, both Stall and Offense gain something in this, it's not all to one side. Stall obviously gains a new toy for its team, but Offense gains something that can take a few hits and provide a pivot Pokemon (one that you switch to in transition to one of your other Pokemon).
I can't think of anything other than a Pokemon that deftly counters the entire metagame that would be more benificial to the current world of Pokemon.
This is obviously where the community would have to put their heads together. I'm actually incredibly interested in how we can make this Pokemon good, and do its job, but without being able to break the Blissey/CAP6 walling combo.
Of course this is true... A team that is built in order to deal with the physical attackers of OU is obviously going to be able to beat the physical attackers of OU... I don't see what you're trying to prove. While physical attackers aren't breaking the metagame anytime soon, but it's very obvious that they are the more dominant force when compared to their special attacking counterparts. Not to mention that it is impossible to cover the majority (not even close) of them without heavy investment in certain Pokemon. Have you ever had this go through your mind? "Well, shit... I'd like to fit 'X' into the team... but I need a Rock resist... a Fighting resist... and a Bug / Steel resist... *sigh* I guess I'll just go with 'the usual'"
I know I have. I think that people get offset by Blissey because it's fairly annoying to get through, but I think that people forget what Blissey allows us to do. Blissey is a rediculously decentralizing force. It allows for "one stop shopping" to the majority of brute force special attackers. It actually allows for MORE diverse team building because now you don't have to dedicate half of your team to taking down special attackers.
Not to mention, those other physical walls can actually do_something in the meantime other than just wall things. Blissey can't really (with the exception of setting up Stealth Rock, but what can't these days?).
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I envision CAP 6 to be very "splashable" in any team. If your team has significant trouble handling physical threats, CAP 6 will fit your 6th slot nicely, much like Blissey to be honest, however it should JUST do what it's supposed to do... handle physical threats. It doesn't need to support, it doesn't need to attack (beyond what is necessary to take down the majority of physical attackers). It just needs to do its job.
With a new Physical wall, we allow our teams to be more diverse on the whole.
Also, both Stall and Offense gain something in this, it's not all to one side. Stall obviously gains a new toy for its team, but Offense gains something that can take a few hits and provide a pivot Pokemon (one that you switch to in transition to one of your other Pokemon).
I can't think of anything other than a Pokemon that deftly counters the entire metagame that would be more benificial to the current world of Pokemon.
I'm really liking this one. It wouldn't be much nice if we did something to "balance" the current metagame, but ended up having another Heatran. Let's do something that gets killed by Shedinja!
I'm also liking this one. Male Blissey, anyone?
We'd need to give it a really specific typing combo, one that not only walls most physical-based OUs but also gives it a big weakness to exploit (otherwise we'd have CAP6+Blissey on all teams).
Trick Room and Gyro Ball punish high speed already, both in different ways.
Lots of things get killed by Shedinja... Starmie, Gengar, Suicune etc can't do a thing to it. I suppose Shedinja can't really hurt them (with the exception of Starmie), but it would force a switch...
The main reason people don't use Shedinja is because as soon as the opponent uses SR, Spikes or TS, or sends in Ttar, Hippo or Abomasnow, it's screwed. Not to mention random WoWs and Toxics flying around.
CAP is supposed to be for OU, not UU.
I see a lot of people saying that many of the other concepts, while quite neat and quirky, don't really offer much to the metagame. This one definitely does. One thing we established in EVO was at least that many people feel the metagame is more important than just doing what is cool all the time [not to bring up that controversy again, sorry, guys...]. I think this is what the metagame needs right now, and I wanted to reintroduce it to everyone's attention. The metagame has taken quite the drastic shift due to the introduction of Platinum changes, and I think we would not only learn a lot about centralisation and the metagame itself by experimenting, but also be able to do some 'damage control' and establish CaP as a polished alternative metagame people sick of the current OU might consider playing, e.g. before Smogon Uni's Shoddy server was introduced and Official was where most people went.
wichu said:
shadow ball or alternately D/P PHYSICAL GHOST ATTACK [shadow claw and shadow sneak??], shedinja is bug/ghost
Requoting in order to defend my idea a bit better
Skymin does not count... at all. Skamory walls it completely if it doesn't have HP Fire/Elec, and forces out the Subseeders via Whirlwind. It also falls to priority moves, Ice Shard in particular, and gets forced out way too easily. The 'atomic bomb' on the other hand shouldn't be forced out easily.
Mence is much more likely to fit, I'll admit that, but there is a simple strategy in countering it once you find out it's moveset.
I'll edit this once I find some other problems with Mence, other than priority
EDIT: Yeah, I was meant to say easily, that point's been fixed
Skymin does not count... at all. Skamory walls it completely if it doesn't have HP Fire/Elec, and forces out the Subseeders via Whirlwind. It also falls to priority moves, Ice Shard in particular, and gets forced out way too easily. The 'atomic bomb' on the other hand shouldn't be forced out easily.
Mence is much more likely to fit, I'll admit that, but there is a simple strategy in countering it once you find out it's moveset.
I'll edit this once I find some other problems with Mence, other than priority
EDIT: Yeah, I was meant to say easily, that point's been fixed
Inability to be forced out easily =/= Domination of the metagame.
I do agree that fixing the metagame should be a top priority. However, I do not think that it means we should completely throw away the neat and quirky ideas. As far as I've seen, most of the neat ideas do net even touch the metagame. this provides an opportunity to mesh one of the quirky ideas with one of the metagame altering ideas. A shapeshifter pokemon that deals with the best 5 pokemon works just fine! perhaps from now on the concept disscussion should be seperated into a flavor concept discussion, and a metagame discussion, where we choose one of each, and mesh them. I don't know, just an idea. Because while having a quirky neat pokemon that doesn't change the metagame isn't good, a flavorless game altering pokemon is equally bad.
Perhaps we should mesh the two best ideas together.
There will already be a lot of flavor bashing in the future threads. Can we keep it aside at least for now please? And by the way, trying to defend an idea using the good points of another one is quite... mean, really. If RBG or Hyra's ideas, for example, turn to be the most useful, we'll find way to make them enjoyable without resorting to "quirky" ideas. Top OU pokemon, be them CAP or not, are almost never "quirky". Stratagem, Salamence, Zapdos, Heatran are consistent, powerful but not gamebreaking, varied. We dont need "omfgroflmao" cool ideas in order to make enjoyable a good pokemon
Even if shaymin doesnt carry hp fire, a normal skarmory can be 2hkoed by seed flare and air slash with rocks and the spdef drop, and if it isn't there's still a 60% chance it'll get flinched, so I wouldn't call that an absolute counter. So I would say an offensive shaymin has no 100% counters.
I dunno, the standard dragon dancer really doesn't have any 100% counters either, nothing resists the dragon/fire/ground combo, and outrage does massive damage to anything neutral. For the record I don't think either is broken, I'm just saying the idea isn't totally original.
I kinda like LN's idea now btw, though still leaning towards anti-trick
I do not recall doing this. Mind pointing it out to me?
Agreed. But we don't need a strategic concept to make a metagame changing pokemon either. And if we can use both a metagame altering idea, and a quirky idea, why shouldn't we? There is no reason not to. the only thing I can think of is that there may be a bit more work involved, but isn't worth it if we end up with a intresting and metagame balancing pokemon?
Hope this is clearer now.
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