CAP 17 CAP 6 - Part 1 - Concept Assessment 1

[Stratos]

If you notice something about PT, all of its users are either slow or the move is irrelevant to them (Alakazam, Gliscor). If we were to build around Power Trick with a fast Pokemon with divergent AND useful Attack / Defense stats (an example of this concept would be Regirock, which maxes at 548 with Max Defense+ and has 236 Attack unboosted. In Regirock's case, PT WOULD be better than Swords Dance if it used its EVs for a wall set, and even after PT it would still have respectable defense). The question would be, what would make us want to use it, and I think the answer is support for the two different functions. It would also be intriguing because even with the "bad swords dance" element, it allows us to take a lot more liberties with the design. Almost no Pokemon that has a defense as high as Regirock or Steelix uses Max+, but with Power Trick there's an incentive to do that. It make physical walling viable while also allowing our Pokemon a unique stat-altering move.

The cool thing about Power Trick is that it's permanent until the next use or a switch out, meaning it can be advantageous to *toggle back* in some circumstances. Recovery moves and priority moves could be built around the concept of Power Trick's mechanical toggle.

Out of curiosity, would you really rather have 548 Atk and 238 Def than 656 Atk and 436 Def? Both are obtainable by Regirock with 252 HP EVs and one turn of setup-the former being Power Trick and the latter being SD. The difference being you can use Power Trick again to go back to 236 Atk and 548 Def, while you can use SD again to... go to 984 atk and 436 Def. Power Trick will always be shit.

To pay attention to the positives instead of the negatives here, i'd like to again rally support for Explosion. It's not gimmicky, as it has the same level of opponent control as ice punch (albeit you don't like your opponent switching into a ghost on your boom), it's rare, yet has the potential to be great, it sets a not-stupidly-vague direction for our CAP, and we know we can make a Pokemon that won't ditch it for better options. And, as scoopapa said, it will allow us to explore a variety of other things in our last Gen V CAP such as how to make an effective suicide poke and what role one would perform (since it'll likely not be as simple as the Taunt/SR/STAB/Boom@Sash days of old). Final gambit sux tho bc you have to use it at full hp from a high base, let's not.

i have reservations about Doom Desire mostly because we don't know that it'd be used; we'd have to tailor our movepool very carefully to make sure we don't become sweeper/wall/supporter who doesn't use it at all, and one wrong move will screw us. That said, if i can't get people to rally behind explosion, it seems like we'll be working with doom desire, and that is my next choice.

 

[awsmminer3]

I say that Transform would be a left-field but interesting move to base CAP6: Show Me Your Moves! around. You can impersonate literally ANY Pokémon for up to 5 turns, opening up a lot of options (And I mean a LOT!) to play around with. You could, for example, impersonate a Dragon whilst running 252+ Speed, 130 Def and 126 SpD to annihilate them with their own Outrage/Draco Meteor. Or you could Transform a Cloyster as it sets up with the same EVs to hit it with the Rock Blast it would use on you. The SE hit with the defensive drops from the Smash should be a 1-move KO. That's just 2 things you could do with Transform and there are so many more!
Edit: OK I know that's basically Ditto Mark 2.

 

[The Leprechaun]

I say that Transform would be a left-field but interesting move to base CAP6: Show Me Your Moves! around. You can impersonate literally ANY Pokémon for up to 5 turns, opening up a lot of options (And I mean a LOT!) to play around with. You could, for example, impersonate a Dragon whilst running 252+ Speed, 130 Def and 126 SpD to annihilate them with their own Outrage/Draco Meteor. Or you could Transform a Cloyster as it sets up with the same EVs to hit it with the Rock Blast it would use on you. The SE hit with the defensive drops from the Smash should be a 1-move KO. That's just 2 things you could do with Transform and there are so many more!

When you transform you copy all the opponent poke's stats apart from hp, transforming into a dragon just means yo have to rely on winning a speed tie to hit them. Plus, transform is a move that is completely outclassed by ditto's ability which transforms without having to use a move. Not a good idea, sorry

 

[Blue Frog]

I say that Transform would be a left-field but interesting move to base CAP6: Show Me Your Moves! around.

I don't think making a transform mon would really help us learn about moves nor would it bring up interesting discussion, mainly because transform copies all of the opponent's features, making the only goal of the transforming Pokemon to get transform up as fast as possible. It would be incredibly easy to make a Pokemon that can abuse transform to its fullest (*ahem* transform Chansey), and there's already imposter Ditto, so I really don't think transform would be a good move for the Pokemon to revolve around.

If there's going to be more crazy suggestions, I have one: Telekinesis. It allows you to hit the opponent's Pokemon without ever missing for three turns, while granting it with an immunity to ground-type moves. However, in conjunction with a move like Inferno, as nyttyn suggested, Telekinesis could be quite useful. Of course, the effect ends in three turns or when the opponent switches, and might not be worth the moveslot considering that there are a lot more other things that could be done with that turn. Still, it could be useful on the right Pokemon.

I'd also like to put out support for Doom Desire/Future Sight, as I think they have great potential in that they can force switches and put pressure on the opponent.

 

[awsmminer3]

That was my first contribution to CAP beside playing the Showdown metagame, so I accept the criticisms.

 

[Garchompi]

Jirachi already exists and can use Doom Desire just fine. In fact its actually a pretty good user of Doom Desire. It doesn't use Doom Desire.

That speaks volumes right there.

I'd like to elaborate on this: Jirachi doesn't use Doom Desire because it has a massive movepool full of reliable moves and doesn't need to resort to such gimmicky tactics.
Looking at all the moves that have been brought up, all of them have something in common: they're outclassed by other, more reliable options.
Nobody in their right mind would use Power Trick on something that learned Shell Smash, just like nobody would use Snatch on something with access to Taunt and enough speed to use it effectively.

In order to justify the use of uncommon/gimmicky moves, this CAP needs to lack more obvious and reliable alternatives.
This also means, if our CAP is offense-oriented, that we can't just give it 3-4 reliable offensive moves (such as Earthquake or Ice Beam) and a bunch of gimmicky ones, because people will just ignore them and stick to all-out attacking sets.
Balancing the need for uncommon moves and making this CAP worth using is going to be, in my opinion, the hardest part of this project.
Before discussing which uncommon moves our CAP should get, ask yourselves this: "what is our CAP going to lack in order to encourage the usage of uncommon attacks?"

Now for a more concrete contribution, I'd like to elaborate on Reflect Type.
In my opinion, this move is only worth using on something with one, crippling weakness and with either Prankster or enough speed to pull it off.
For example, a fast and offensive water/ground type could use it to combat grass-types, who would most likely force it out.
Another case would be a ghost-type using it against dark types in order not to be trapped by Pursuit (and possibly wall them). Of course WOW would be more reliable if said ghot-type learned it, which is why I put emphasis on restricting this CAP's movepool first.

 

[alexwolf]

Here are my two suggestions:

Gravity

Now when i say Gravity i really want to expand a little more on what we should be aiming to create. Just making a Gravity abuser won't make it because the move has plenty of users and it is still shit. We would have to make a Pokemon that either takes advantage of Gravity in multiple direct ways or needs to use Gravity for certain reasons. This makes sure that the move Gravity will indeed be used on this Pokemon commonly and will allow us to see if Gravity really has some untapped potential that we haven't seen. How can we make a Pokemon that takes advantage of Gravity in multiple ways? Here are some examples:

• Obviously low accuracy moves. Preferably powerful STAB moves and even more preferably the only good STABs of our CAP. For example if we make a CAP with Ice / Electric typing and only give Thunder and Blizzard as its good STABs then the CAP will have to use Gravity on its movesets (i know that it's not possible to give to an Electric Pokemon only Thunder and not Tbolt but that's besides the point).
• The right typing. We should give to the CAP a typing that gives it both good STABs to use under Gravity (meaning with both the right typing and accuracy) and minimizes the ways that the opponent can take advantage of Gravity. For example if we create a Bug / Ground Pokemon then we can observe the following things. First, after the use of Gravity allows the Pokemon to have perfect neutral coverage with just its STABs. Second, Gravity also boosts the accuracy of a common powerful Bug-type move, Megahorn. Third, the CAP itself can doesn't let the opponent take advantage of Gravity in many ways. It's still resistant to Ground-type moves, it doesn't get hit more by any particular hazard and it also doesn't really care about many inaccurate moves that will have perfect accuracy under Gravity (Thunder, Focus Blast, Stone Edge). Of 'course it isn't happy with a fully accurate Hydro Pump, Fire Blast, and Hurricane, but if the opponent is faster the CAP wouldn't want to stay in anyway. This was just an example to show how a Pokemon's typing can play a significant role to if the CAP will be able to use Gravity successfully. Other example are any Ghost-type Pokemon (to spinblock the entry hazards that we will try to take advantage of with Gravity and WoW) with Spikes or T-Spikes and a secondary typing that takes advantage of Gravity too (Ground, Fighting (Focus Blast), etc).
• Spikes/T-Spikes. I already mentioned this above and it's another obvious one. If we give Gravity to a good Spikes user that also takes advantage of Gravity in other ways (the ones i mentioned above) then Spikes have the potential to become much more effective.

Before i finish talking about Gravity i want to stress how important it is to make sure that, if we go with Gravity, the Pokemon we will create will need to take advantage of Gravity with multiple ways, as we all know from experience that the advantages of Gravity are just not good enough to warrant using it if it only has one use (or even two small ones). We should make sure that Gravity is absolutely vital to the way that the CAP functions.

Recycle

To my surprise this move hasn't been talked about at all. Before i go in details about it and give some examples to show its potential i want to hear what you guys think of this move. Some Pokemon rely a lot on their one-time use items and some one-time use items can be very useful if you have access to them whenever you want.

Finally, please guys let's keep aways from stuff we already are familiar with. Technician + whichever weak move, Explosion, and Foul Play are moves that already see use by many Pokemon and we know the extend of their power and usefulness. Let's not make the last CAP of this gen a boring one and instead let's try to explore the potential of something really interesting, of which the extend of its usefulness and power we don't know.

 

[noobiess]

I like Soak for now. It's a refreshing idea that you change the features of the opponent in your benefit in stead of upgrading your own pokemon. I am a bit concerned that it would be hard to work with and that the move is just not strong enough to be used very often.

I like to put a few other moves on the table:
- Work up: it actually is a great move but somehow it is never used. The benefit of this move is that it will be easier to work with conpared to the other moves.
- Conversion: I like the fact that the pokemon doesn't constantly have the same type but always has a STAB move. I could see this work for a fast sweeper with conversion, a move with the type of its Original type and 2 moves with another type

 

[The Leprechaun]

- Work up: it actually is a great move but somehow it is never used. The benefit of this move is that it will be easier to work with conpared to the other moves.

I mentioned this a while ago but no one seemed to give it any attention. I posted a few reasons why it's not used, basically because there aren't any pokes that reach a speed tier to sweep as well as having good mixed attacking stats. I really think this needs a bit more attention as it fits into a category of "lowly controlled opponent move" as well bringing a (sort of) unique role of mixed sweeper. I know there are pokes like Hydreigon and Kyurem b that have great mixed movepools and attacking stats but none of these really ever sweep, i'd put them more into the category of wall breakers. Mence is really the only poke that does this and imo isn't very effective at it. Then again, creating a poke around work up might not be very interesting so maybe it could considered in conjunction with other moves.

 

[Stratos]

I'd like to elaborate on this: Jirachi doesn't use Doom Desire because it has a massive movepool full of reliable moves and doesn't need to resort to such gimmicky tactics.
Looking at all the moves that have been brought up, all of them have something in common: they're outclassed by other, more reliable options.
Nobody in their right mind would use Power Trick on something that learned Shell Smash, just like nobody would use Snatch on something with access to Taunt and enough speed to use it effectively.

In order to justify the use of uncommon/gimmicky moves, this CAP needs to lack more obvious and reliable alternatives.
This also means, if our CAP is offense-oriented, that we can't just give it 3-4 reliable offensive moves (such as Earthquake or Ice Beam) and a bunch of gimmicky ones, because people will just ignore them and stick to all-out attacking sets.
Balancing the need for uncommon moves and making this CAP worth using is going to be, in my opinion, the hardest part of this project.
Before discussing which uncommon moves our CAP should get, ask yourselves this: "what is our CAP going to lack in order to encourage the usage of uncommon attacks?"

There are two ways to interpret this and I want to make sure you—and others—have the right idea here. It's easy to make Gyara use Bounce by taking away Brave Bird but that's lame as hell and doesn't really tell us in what scenario a rare move is the optimal choice. A good example of this is Soak Necturna: though it gets the choice of literally every move in the game for that fourth slot, but it chose a niche move like Soak because it helped it beat anything that tried to switch in on it.

Of course, Necturna would never have used Soak if we had given it, say, Close Combat + Shell Smash instead of just one or the other. In that way, you're right, we'll need to tailor the movepool to make the role which utilizes the move the pokemon's best role; however, we should make the underused move a natural choice for the role that we pick.

Finally, please guys let's keep aways from stuff we already are familiar with. Technician + whichever weak move, Explosion, and Foul Play are moves that already see use by many Pokemon and we know the extend of their power and usefulness. Let's not make the last CAP of this gen a boring one and instead let's try to explore the potential of something really interesting, of which the extend of its usefulness and power we don't know.

We know the extent of explosion's usefulness and power? Name me one Pokemon in BW2 OU which doesn't surprise you when it explodes. Maybe Forretress. We know the extent of explosion's usefulness and power when it had two major purposes: Special Attackers used it to nab the ubiquitous Blissey without wasting their whole set and leads used it because, well, lead meta. Now Team Preview has ruined lead meta and Blissey is at less than 5% usage (not that most SpAttackers could break her with it now) (or that keldeo or latios need it) (or that heatran or magnezone are common special attackers anymore). I would argue that no move has been hit harder by the generational shift than Explosion. And rather than just finding some unused support move and making it work, i think it'd just be really cool to explore this abandoned move, why it fell from grace, and how to make it work in gen V. People base their entire careers off of things like this! (Albeit they explore Rome or Egypt instead of Explosion, it's the same concept.)

 

[inanimate blob]

Reflect Type could potentially work brilliantly, with the wrong kind of typing backed up by a good ability. The only issue is the turn of set-up, but I support it. Having the move in mind may actually influence the new mon's typing.

Skill Swap could also be interesting, albeit harder to pull off. Most abilities won't be too detrimental to opposing Pokemon without some kind of benefit for the user's moves (perhaps a Fire-type Skill Swapping Dry Skin onto a Pokemon). The main issue it that the move is similar to Iron Ball/Fling or Natural Gift - it's a one chance usage for the most part.

Inferno/Zap Cannon would be interesting as well - perhaps throw in Lock On? The main issue with this is if they are given to a Pokemon and expected to be used, it would almost certainly require either No Guard or some sort of locking move.

But now for my personal favorite - Odor Sleuth. Imagine giving a Pokemon near-perfect coverage - but leaving out Ghost-types. Yes, there are already Pokemon like that (I'm an NU player so my example is Regigigas), but perhaps the right motivation could inspire people to use this otherwise "terrible" move?

 

[phoopes]

Jirachi already exists and can use Doom Desire just fine. In fact its actually a pretty good user of Doom Desire. It doesn't use Doom Desire.

That speaks volumes right there.

So the point of the concept is to use a move with effects not usually seen in the OU metagame, either because of poor distribution or being overshadowed. And you're saying that we shouldn't use Doom Desire because there's already one Pokemon that gets it and it's overshadowed by other sets. Okay. Jirachi not using Doom Desire because of its stupidly good movepool doesn't "speak volumes," it shows that it's a diverse Pokemon with many options. Doom Desire is unique, and often overlooked, plus it has the potential to be great. I don't think your quick dismissal of it makes too much sense.

 

[Spork]

Explosion is an excellent choice for this cap. It is an exceptionally useful move, nothing in OU used it effectively, and it has heaps of potential.

In a similar vein, I'd like to perhaps nominate Healing Wish. I'm especially interested in how the move might be utilised to turn the tide of a losing game for an offensive team - kind of the trump card against bulkier teams for the offensive mon on its last legs. Healing Wish would also allow us to look quite closely at team building.

 

[inanimate blob]

I'd like to make a case for a few more moves that haven't been mentioned. By the way, @Spork, no to Explosion. It's not as good as it used to be, and there are plenty of Pokemon that could abuse it right now (like Metagross, I guess).

Any of the self-KO to help moves could be interesting, albeit hard to pull off. Healing Wish and Lunar Dance could potentially be viable, yet they are hard to come by on most Pokemon and the ones that do have it have much better options (or just aren't viable, like Lopunny).

Bind, Whirlpool, Clamp, Fire Spin, and Wrap could be interesting in the right context - while we do have Heatran's Magma Storm, which almost never sees usage, a Pokemon with the right movepool to psuedo-trap and kill would be very intriguing. It would definitely stand out in a crowd compared to other stallers, as it could actively kill threats (but would need to be hard to predict).

Lastly, having a Pokemon able to abuse Thief or Covet would be incredible. Similar to Knock Off, it would be able to play mind games with an opponent's item, at the risk of taking a Choice Scarf or something (which wouldn't be all bad). If we do decide this should be a move to consider, the Pokemon would need to be very flexible and versatile.

Before we design any part of this Pokemon, though, I think we should designate the moves we hope to work with, instead of doing our normal typing and stats first. Those need to reflect the moves we choose to consider.

 

[alexwolf]

We know the extent of explosion's usefulness and power? Name me one Pokemon in BW2 OU which doesn't surprise you when it explodes. Maybe Forretress. We know the extent of explosion's usefulness and power when it had two major purposes: Special Attackers used it to nab the ubiquitous Blissey without wasting their whole set and leads used it because, well, lead meta. Now Team Preview has ruined lead meta and Blissey is at less than 5% usage (not that most SpAttackers could break her with it now) (or that keldeo or latios need it) (or that heatran or magnezone are common special attackers anymore). I would argue that no move has been hit harder by the generational shift than Explosion. And rather than just finding some unused support move and making it work, i think it'd just be really cool to explore this abandoned move, why it fell from grace, and how to make it work in gen V. People base their entire careers off of things like this! (Albeit they explore Rome or Egypt instead of Explosion, it's the same concept.)

Just because some Pokemon that use Explosion have the surprise factor means that the move has unexplored potential? What is exactly that we don't know about this move? Not to mention that many Pokemon use it successfully in literally all tiers. Lead Forretress, lead Azelf, and TR Bronzong use it in OU, Genesect uses it on its best set in Ubers, Golem uses it in NU etc. We know what this move is capable of, we know the reasons it is used, and there are already many Pokemon that use it to a successful extend. I see nothing worth exploring with this move. Not to mention that not all moves that are not used a lot in OU aren't used because they lack the proper users. Some moves are just bad or mediocre and this is why they don't see a lot of usage. This is the case with Explosion too. It is a mediocre and situational move that has a few uses but nothing more to let it become a staple in OU. Not all unused moves (and Explosion isn't even really unused, at least the way i see it) have unexplored potential, some are just mediocre or bad.

So far the moves i like the most are Gravity, Doom Desire, Reflect Type, and Recycle, in order of preference.

Recycle has the potential to be very useful on any Unburden user. For example imagine a Fight / Flying Pokemon (or any other Pokemon that can get (almost) perfect coverage with two moves) with two STABs, a boosting move, and Recycle. Recycle would not only allow this Pokemon to attempt a sweep more than once and would also allow it to gain back the Gem that the Pokemon will be using, having a double purpose. I know that assuming Unburden as the ability is poll-jumping but so far i can't think of any other use of Recycle and i am trying to see if people can provide some more good ideas. Any other case that Recycle can be useful?

 

[nyttyn]

So the point of the concept is to usea a move with effects not usually seen in the OU metagame, either because of poor distribution or being overshadowed. And you're saying that we shouldn't use Doom Desire because there's already one Pokemon that gets it and it's overshadowed by other sets. Okay. Jirachi not using Doom Desire because of its stupidly good movepool doesn't "speak volumes," it shows that it's a diverse Pokemon with many options. Doom Desire is unique, and often overlooked, plus it has the potential to be great. I don't think your quick dismissal of it makes too much sense.

I'm really getting sick of this argument because it actually defeats itself. As garchompi said

Jirachi doesn't use Doom Desire because it has a massive movepool full of reliable moves and doesn't need to resort to such gimmicky tactics.

If Doom Desire was so good, it wouldn't be overshadowed by Jirachi's other sets.

It just flat out sucks, period. The only reason why people are bandwagon hyping it is because it is a move that has an effect unlike any other in the game - but the problem is, that turn spent to use Doom Desire would almost always be better spent just flat out attacking since you will do more damage over-all. Plus, with how dynamic and fluid pokemon battles are, as well as how aggressive they are, there is a probability that spending that turn to attack three turns later will just get you killed and at the very best, give you a 1:1 trade, and at the very worst, just be redundant damage that did absolutely nothing of value for you.

And as for the wall-breaking argument: most mons already have ways to get around walls, and most walls are steel types to boot (as well as bulky water). Pray tell, how is a steel type attack going to break the most popular kind of wall when it is resisted by them?

Healing Wish

Latias and Lilligant can and do use this move and are OU viable. Latias can use it quite well actually. In addition if they really wanted to Celebi and Jirachi could always use it, and have the stats to use it well.

And again, how are we going to base the mon around always using this move?

Thief

Trash BP, can often backfire if you grab a choice item, too reliant on opponent, not worth the turn required, any mon with the oomph required to abuse any item it steals would likely have such insane stats it wouldn't bother, requires you to start out with no item.

Odor Sleuth

There is no world in which a move that only serves to let fighting and normal types hit Ghost types will be worth it besides one very, very particular case - and that case already exists and is OU viable (Hitmontop, Rapid Spin + Foresight). It isn't that hot in OU anymore though because there are so few spinblockers left in the tier, and you're usually better off just killing the spinblocker and spinning later unless you ABSOLUTELY need to spin, since it is usually far too dangerous to risk the Foresight in this meta where one free turn can change games.

Recycle

Recycle has the crippling issue of always requiring two turns to set up after the inital attempt at Unburden sweeping (the only use of recycle even remotely worthwhile), which just begs the question of why you aren't just using a Dragon Dance sweeper and boosting your attack at the same time.

Poor man's Agility, not really worthwhile.

 

[Torterragatr]

To be frank I would like using a move that is not only uncommon, but novel to OU. For instance, the move Trick Room may be uncommon, but there is already a Pokémon that uses it very well, Reuniclus, and there have been some top teams based around the strategy, which shows that while it's somewhat underused it already has enough abusers to be effective. It doesn't have to be just modern OU either: from looking at Linoone in NU and Charizard in ADV OU and how they impacted their respective metagames, we have a good idea of how to make Belly Drum viable on CAP 6 and how OU would respond, leaving us with few other questions to answer imo. Basically, we should choose a move with unexplored effects.

That said, I stand behind Explosion, Heart Swap, Skill Swap, Reflect Type, Healing Wish and Torment, because while some of these (Torment and Explosion) were once notable moves, they were also shackled by a notable shift in the metagame for the former and a massive nerf for the latter, respectively. So even though these are probably not "bad" moves, they should need a certain kind of build to be used well, and our job is to find it.

Is there a high risk of whatever move we choose being rejected in favor of something more common? Sure. But if we can create the Pokémon with specificity in mind, and make the move great on it but give it flaws that keep it from being an exceptional all-out attacker or whatever—perhaps connected to why CAP uses the move so well—I think we could do it (and making CAP 6 a little versatile is never bad).

edit: most of you say this better

 

[alexwolf]

nyttyn while you do have a point about Jirachi and Doom Desire we can't be sure that Doom Desire doesn't have the potential to be a useful move. Jirachi doesn't have the stats to take the role of a wallbreaker making Doom Desire not such a good option for it as it doesn't fit so well on defensive/choiced/sweeping sets. I will admit that Doom Desire may indeed be nothing special but the opposite also is true imo, and we won't know the answer until we try.

Also i don't get why some people want Inferno and Zap Cannon for our moves. This is in the OP:

General Description: A good user of moves with effects not frequently used in the OU metagame.

What effect do those moves have that is rare or not seen in OU? Burn and Paralyze? OU is full of it. High powered accurate moves, assuming we give to the CAP No Guard? Same here. I just can't see what's the point of making a CAP like this. There is just nothing new to explore.

 

[nyttyn]

I will admit that Doom Desire may indeed be nothing special but the opposite also is true imo, and we won't know the answer until we try.

Considering that most walls are Steel types, it is pretty obvious that it is far more likely to fail then succeed given that wallbreaking is basically the only real use of Doom Desire. Sure, we don't ABSOLUTELY KNOW, but we can make an educated guess - and educated guess says that a wallbreaking tool in a meta where the most popular walls resist it is going to be really awful.

Also i don't get why some people want Inferno and Zap Cannon for our moves

What effect do those moves have that is rare or not seen in OU? Burn and Paralyze? OU is full of it. High powered accurate moves, assuming we give to the CAP No Guard? Same here. I just can't see what's the point of making a CAP like this. There is just nothing new to explore.

Nothing in OU can both reliably burn and attack at the same time. The closest thing we have to it is Scald, and Scald only has a 30% chance and is moreso used because it is still fairly effective as an attack in the rain - the burn chance is just a bonus And since Zap Cannon has Body Slam Jirachi as competition (which works wonders), Inferno is the obvious turn-to as it has a unique effect that cannot be reliably performed in OU.

Edit: Plus, the second-best option for burns (assuming we make Inferno-CAP) has a dismissal 75% accuracy and only burns if it hits, which can be pretty costly to momentum. A world where keeping momentum and burning at the same time is possible would be quite interesting,.

 

[Base Speed]

Doom Desire is a dreadful move.

Honestly, I hate to go on a huge rant about a single move, but I actually can't believe the momentum this move is getting. Trouble is, nobody is really analysing the move properly. We're all being brainwashed by the idea of a high base power move that has poor distribution and a unique effect and we're not actually looking at how it works.

Let's break down exactly how this move is going to work in reality.

• Doom Desire will take 2 turns to hit
• In those 2 turns, the user can't use Doom Desire again and the opponent is free to switch
• Steel is a dreadful offensive type. Water, Steel, Electric and Fire all resist it. We see plenty of those types in OU: I'd wager the average team would have at least 2 Steel resits, without even trying. The only types it hits for Super Effective damage are Ice and Rock. They're some of the rarest types in OU
• Considering all this, the odds of getting a Super Effective hit with Doom Desire are abysmal. Even getting a neutral hit is going to require careful play that goes way beyond 1 turn prediction. It's very much in your opponents hands (and as Birkal rather eloquently described, this is something we should avoid).
• While you wait for Doom Desire to hit, what do you do?
• Let's assume we're using a Steel type so we can get STAB. Do we not give it any other STABs to encourage Doom Desire? In that case, what the heck is it meant to do while waiting for Doom Desire to hit? But if we give it another viable Steel STAB, then what's to stop it running it over Doom Desire? Or are we wasting 2 slots on the same type? None of these options work.
• No abilities assist Doom Desire specifically. No other moves assist it specifically. There's nothing we can do to make it a better option than Flash Cannon. Frankly, I'd rather run Hidden Power Steel.

I'm trying to keep an open mind, so if someone can actually explain to me how this can be competitively viable, please feel free to. But right now I just feel like everyone is overlooking this moves competitive inadequacies because it's rare and "cool".

(Oh and also, please think of optics for a second. Doom Desire is the signature move of a legendary. We're supposed to avoid them so that we don't look like a bunch of drooling fanboys. It just looks unprofessional to an outsider.)

 

[alexwolf]

Considering that most walls are Steel types, it is pretty obvious that it is far more likely to fail then succeed given that wallbreaking is basically the only real use of Doom Desire. Sure, we don't ABSOLUTELY KNOW, but we can make an educated guess - and educated guess says that a wallbreaking tool in a meta where the most popular walls resist it is going to be really awful.

The point is to force those Steel-types out by the time that Doom Desire connects and this could be done with various ways. Also just to see iirc, Doom Desire does Steel-type damage in 5th gen, meaning that it takes into account resistances and weaknesses right?

Nothing in OU can both reliably burn and attack at the same time. The closest thing we have to it is Scald, and Scald only has a 30% chance and is moreso used because it is still fairly effective as an attack in the rain - the burn chance is just a bonus And since Zap Cannon has Body Slam Jirachi as competition (which works wonders), Inferno is the obvious turn-to as it has a unique effect that cannot be reliably performed in OU.

Edit: Plus, the second-best option for burns (assuming we make Inferno-CAP) has a dismissal 75% accuracy and only burns if it hits, which can be pretty costly to momentum. A world where keeping momentum and burning at the same time is possible would be quite interesting,.

I really can't see the appeal. Let's assume that we do go for Inferno and we give No Guard too to the Pokemon. We get a good nuke that burns everything. How will that work for the Pokemon that we will give it to? If it is offensive it will just have fewer switch-ins but will still function as a sweeper does (KO everything). If it is defensive it will just have two moves in 1 slot (attack + WoW) letting it use more utility options. That's all and i can't really see what's so interesting about it.

Doom Desire is a dreadful move.

Honestly, I hate to go on a huge rant about a single move, but I actually can't believe the momentum this move is getting. Trouble is, nobody is really analysing the move properly. We're all being brainwashed by the idea of a high base power move that has poor distribution and a unique effect and we're not actually looking at how it works.

Let's break down exactly how this move is going to work in reality.

• Doom Desire will take 2 turns to hit
• In those 2 turns, the user can't use Doom Desire again and the opponent is free to switch
• Steel is a dreadful offensive type. Water, Steel, Electric and Fire all resist it. We see plenty of those types in OU: I'd wager the average team would have at least 2 Steel resits, without even trying. The only types it hits for Super Effective damage are Ice and Rock. They're some of the rarest types in OU
• Considering all this, the odds of getting a Super Effective hit with Doom Desire are abysmal. Even getting a neutral hit is going to require careful play that goes way beyond 1 turn prediction. It's very much in your opponents hands (and as Birkal rather eloquently described, this is something we should avoid).
• While you wait for Doom Desire to hit, what do you do?
• Let's assume we're using a Steel type so we can get STAB. Do we not give it any other STABs to encourage Doom Desire? In that case, what the heck is it meant to do while waiting for Doom Desire to hit? But if we give it another viable Steel STAB, then what's to stop it running it over Doom Desire? Or are we wasting 2 slots on the same type? None of these options work.
• No abilities assist Doom Desire specifically. No other moves assist it specifically. There's nothing we can do to make it a better option than Flash Cannon. Frankly, I'd rather run Hidden Power Steel.

I'm trying to keep an open mind, so if someone can actually explain to me how this can be competitively viable, please feel free to. But right now I just feel like everyone is overlooking this moves competitive inadequacies because it's rare and "cool".

(Oh and also, please think of optics for a second. Doom Desire is the signature move of a legendary. We're supposed to avoid them so that we don't look like a bunch of drooling fanboys. It just looks unprofessional to an outsider.)

There are moves that can assist Doom Desire. Protect and Sub are the obvious ones and they can stall for the one turn needed in order to bring in a counter to the Pokemon that resists Doom Desire and force it out just before Doom Desire connects. U-turn and Volt Switch are two other good ones. Bring in a counter to the opponent's answer to Doom Desire in turn 1, assuming it stays in. Then in turn two you force it out and you get to hit something else with both an attack and Doom Desire (while hopefully preventing Pokemon that resist it from coming in). I think that Doom Desire has a useful effect and is strong enough to work even with such a bad offensive typing, assuming a Pokemon with great SpA gets it (115 or more).

 

[psykokitty]

I'd classify Doom Desire and Future Sight as mid-level control moves according to the system that Birkal outlines in his post; as such, I find them incredibly intriguing. I think that the loudest opponents of the moves are making too many assumptions about what we would have to do to make either of these moves viable.

For one, we do not have to give CAP6 STAB in order to use these moves effectively. If, in using DD/FS our end goal is to simply deal large amounts of damage to an opponent pokemon, then yes, it would be in our best interest to give it Steel or Psychic typing. However, DD/FS can be used to force a switch. Forgive the slight amount of theorymoning and polljumping ahead, but there are plenty of fighting types in OU (such as Breloom, Conkeldurr, and Terrakion) that wouldn't be wanting to take even a non-STAB Future Sight if it was coming from something with an adequate SpA stat, leaving the opponent with the option of either taking the hit (and potentially losing their fighting 'mon) or switching. Through the movepool stage, we could give CAP6 the ability to punish either decision the opponent would make, using 4MSS to our advantage to make sure that CAP6 doesn't become broken by being able to punish both choices at once. My point in this is that CAP6 wouldn't need to sit around and do nothing while waiting for DD/FS to hit; neither does an opponent's switch have to completely nerf the strategy.

That said, Base Speed makes a good point about optics. Because of this, I think we should steer away from Doom Desire and focus more upon Future Sight, should we choose to go this route.

Regardless of what kinds of moves we choose to gear CAP6 towards (whether it be DD/FS, field effects, stat switchers, explosion, etc), I think we need to be careful not to make CAP6 a one-trick pony. If opponents can see that you've got CAP6 on your team and know exactly how you're going to use it, the unlikely strategy becomes easier to predict and counter, reducing its viability in OU and taking away from whatever we do manage to achieve in terms of the concept.

 

[capefeather]

My problem with Inferno is that it would inevitably just become a better Scald. Seriously, the main difference with Inferno that's being advertised is that it's "more reliable". I think that this goes against the concept.

I don't really get the Work Up suggestion. Its gimmick is that it boosts both attacking stats one stage, but one stage is generally not enough to be worth using, even with the broader attacking options.

I can kind of see Reflect Type working if, as Garchompi mentioned, we used coverage moves corresponding to CAP 6's focused weaknesses.

Heart Swap is an interesting case, separate from other highly-controlled opponent move because it's tailored mostly toward stopping a large threat, in which case the potential lost momentum from the opponent switching out is still preferable. It still seems kind of situational in OU compared to BH, but that's not a decisive reason to reject it.

Now, going back to Doom Desire / Future Sight, field effect moves, and Explosion: With Doom Desire / Future Sight, the other moves we discuss in conjunction with it are going to matter a lot. Take the Doom Desire + Explosion, for example. The only way to resist both is with a Steel-type, and even then, it could be taking a ton of damage. Well, in this case there's an awkwardness with using a physical move and a special move, so maybe Volt Switch is a better partner move. As for the field effect moves, Gravity seems to be generating the most significant discussion, and I'm being more convinced that it has the most potential, even though I've traditionally disliked the move.

At this time, I'd like for us to focus more on Explosion and Gravity, as well as possibly Trick Room, Heart Swap, Reflect Type and Doom Desire / Future Sight. People are still welcome to try to make a strong case for other moves, though please heed the advice given in my previous post and Birkal's post.

 

[inanimate blob]

What if we stop looking at CAP6 from an offensive position with moves like Doom Desire and such? What defensive moves remain untouched?

I would argue for Fly/Dive/Dig if we go a similar direction to how Sky Drop Zapdos used to work (remember that? Toxic/Sky Drop/Roost/Substitute) They would definitely be good moves to study to see if they are actually viable on certain Pokemon, in the current metagame. Yes, they do all have some issues. Dig is still hurt by Earthquake and doesn't affect Flying-types, Dive is still hurt by Surf, and Fly is resisted by a few things and still hurt by Thunder in Rain.

But, if we were to find a way around these problems and force these moves somehow (pull a Regigigas and take away Protect?), the moves could be encouraged if the Pokemon is a legitimate staller with a necessity for stalling moves.

 

[Governess]

What if we stop looking at CAP6 from an offensive position with moves like Doom Desire and such? What defensive moves remain untouched?

I would argue for Fly/Dive/Dig if we go a similar direction to how Sky Drop Zapdos used to work (remember that? Toxic/Sky Drop/Roost/Substitute) They would definitely be good moves to study to see if they are actually viable on certain Pokemon, in the current metagame. Yes, they do all have some issues. Dig is still hurt by Earthquake and doesn't affect Flying-types, Dive is still hurt by Surf, and Fly is resisted by a few things and still hurt by Thunder in Rain.

But, if we were to find a way around these problems and force these moves somehow (pull a Regigigas and take away Protect?), the moves could be encouraged if the Pokemon is a legitimate staller with a necessity for stalling moves.

I like the idea of the three moves you have mentioned, and it would go well with certain Pokemon in certain cases. However, the problem with these moves (and why they may not be used in general) is besides having moves to hit them regardless, they also offer a free switch in for the opponent, or just sinply have another turn to make an action. With Pokemon like Ferrothorn being able to take two of the three listed well, and with giving your opponent a free turn to either switch, therefore gaining momentum, or just tank the attack to set up, would it be worth the attack? Yes, if the opponent is slower, you can avoid the attack right then and there, but in most cases, I'm curious as to how a Pokemon could be made around moves like that. It might be effective for stalling purposes, though, so it isn't all that bad, but it can really hinder momentum for your team.