CAP 17 CAP 6 - Part 10 - Non-Attacking Moves Discussion

[Rising_Dusk]

I'm fine with either Baton Pass or Agility/Etc individually, but the problem is them being together. Together, CAP6 becomes much better as an AgilityPasser than as a BD Passer, and together they serve as a distraction from the concept. Individually apart from each other, they are fine and indeed okay. Agility really doesn't add anything to the concept at all, but standalone there's really no reason to disallow it because it's bad for CAP6 without Baton Pass. Meanwhile, Baton Pass is very pro-concept, and I really want to see it allowed in a situation where a Belly Drum Pass might actually happen (there is no one better suited to do it than CAP6).

Allow Baton Pass and Agility/Etc, but disallow them together on the same movepool.

Alternatively, since Baton Pass is so pro-concept, we could go the simpler route and simple disallow Agility/Etc. Both function identically as far as the end product goes.

As far as Taunt goes, I genuinely feel it should be disallowed. It enables CAP6 to perform a "muscle-through-stuff" role rather well, distracting from the concept, and there is literally no pro-concept side to the move. It's just a distraction, and distractions need to go away. Taunt also has even worse applications as a distraction from Belly Drum being the focal point of the Pokemon in the case where it gets Taunt + Roost, and I strongly feel that Roost is more pro-concept than Taunt, so I favor allowing Roost and kicking Taunt to the curb. Disallow Taunt.

That's really all that needs to be said at this point from me.

 

[Torterragatr]

Third time's a charm! I'm hoping what I say will be a little useful. If it's clueless, my apologies.

Baton Pass is disallowed. Baton Pass is, indeed, pro-concept in a twisted sort of way. The problem is it's not getting us where we want to be with the CAP, which is sweeping with Belly Drum—we have assumed Cawmodore would be that in all previous stages, so it would be unruly (and somewhat Aurumoth-ish, from what I've heard, although I was not around during CAP 4) to go back on that at the last hour no matter how uncommon the move we're considering is or how connected it is to the concept. Besides, a Belly Drum passer is uncommon, but covers no new ground. Seeing a Pokémon sweep right with the boost it got would be a much more educational experience.

Since it's fairly likely Cawmodore will be more competent at passing than sweeping outright, it may upsurp our original concept rather than add variety as people are saying. Even if BD were its only set, it doesn't mean it would be necessarily unsuccessful, as there are Pokémon who work despite being very predictable. The questions that the CAP should answer also do not require the existence of another set, so I wouldn't say we aren't going to learn anything. I would actually say if we allowed Baton Pass then we would learn less than if BD was the only good set. Are we going to see the effect a bulkier BD passer would have on the metagame? It would be pretty old news, I'm guessing.

Agility should be allowed assuming Baton Pass is disallowed, because it's useless, but if Baton Pass is allowed then Agility shouldn't be because of how anti-concept it is, as everyone else has said.

 

[DarkSlay]

I have made my decisions, and the 24-hour limit has been reached, so this thread is officially closed. The following moves will be put forth in a poll to conclude the NAM discussion:

Roost
Taunt

Keep in mind, fellow CAPers, that I will be taking into account every single discussion item in each of these threads when deciding my slate. For example, I have taken note that a combination of Roost + Taunt may promote a set outside of Belly Drum, so that may reflect on my decisions later on in the movepool stages. Do not assume that your movepool slate must have all of the moves allowed, nor should you vote for movepools for the sake of having every allowed move under the sun. We will get more into this when discussing movepool limits and the like, but I just wanted to make sure that you are all aware that the decision to allow moves for movepool submissions does not mean that move must be in a movepool.

With that out of the way, let's get the okay and move on with this crazy thing! Thanks to all for the great discussion again.

 

[capefeather]

Hey guys, things got busy because of the Canadian thanksgiving weekend and homework, but no worries. I'm here now!

So, about the controversial moves. As DarkSlay said, it's generally agreed that both moves together would be pretty bad. Because of this, I'm not sure how representative a simultaneous vote on both moves would be. Roost greatly impacts Taunt as a potential derailment on the concept, and the fact that Roost is Controversial makes it difficult to place Taunt anywhere other than Controversial. On the other hand, Drain Punch arguably impacts Taunt in the same way. I think if I were the one making the slate, I would disallow Taunt. I like having as many things settled in these discussions as is reasonable before the movepool submissions. However, this stage doesn't have to work like that, and so, with DarkSlay's declaration above, I believe it would be best to leave this matter to the voters and then to his discretion.

One thing about this Wombo Combo is that it arguably isn't. The "Wombo Combo" is kind of tacked on at the end. Still, it's... an interesting video in its own right.