CAP 17 CAP 6 - Part 10 - Non-Attacking Moves Discussion

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Birkal

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We're nearing the end of our process as we sit on the verge of a new generation of Pokemon. Now we're in the stage of discussing CAP6's non-attacking moves, which could easily make or break this project. This stage is also the "star" of our concept, so make sure to read through Concept Assessment to freshen up on our goals here. Let's finish strong!

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An attacking move is a move that deals damage to an opponent as its main purpose or one of its main purposes. All other moves are considered non-attacking moves. It is important to distinguish attacking moves, which can be used specifically to deal damage, from non-attacking moves, which are used for some major effects but may happen to deal a small amount of damage. For some moves, such as Rapid Spin, this is clear-cut. However, the classification of moves such as U-turn and Volt Switch are dependent on the user's ability to damage the opponent with the move. Competitive moves are moves that are viable for use in battle on a given Pokemon. This categorization is also Pokémon-dependent.

The Movepool Leader, DarkSlay, has sole discretion for interpreting which moves are considered attacking or non-attacking, and which are considered competitive or non-competitive, for this project. He will post a list of competitive attacking moves in the first reply to this thread, and classify them into five or six groups:
  • Required - Moves are those that must be in every movepool submission.
  • Allowed - Moves that have been agreed through general community consensus to be allowed in the Pokémon's final movepool
  • Disallowed - Moves that have been agreed through general community consensus to be disallowed from the Pokémon's final movepool
  • Controversial - Moves that did not reach general community consensus, and will require a specific vote.
  • Pending - Moves that have not received enough support or opposition to determine whether they are allowed, disallowed, or controversial
  • Need Discussion (optional) - Moves that the Movepool Leader may want to draw specific attention to at any given time. This will be updated frequently, so check back frequently.
This list will serve as a single point-of-reference for the current state of the discussion. The community should make posts arguing for moves to be allowed or disallowed. The Movepool Leader will re-categorize the moves as the discussion progresses, until he deems the discussion over. The controversial moves will be put to a vote to determine whether they will be allowed or not.

Remember that, technically, nothing is set in stone until the thread is closed.

Rules for posting in this thread:
  • All posts should be presented with reasoning. NO flavor-based logic will be tolerated.
  • It is the responsibility of each user to check the OP before making any post in the thread, so as to stay relevant.
  • Posting lists of moves is strictly prohibited, even with explanations. Do not copy the Move Leader's list, and then add "Yes/No" or a similarly worthless comment, beside each one.
  • The Movepool Leader and Topic Leader are the sole arbiters for determining "general community consensus". The Movepool Leader may ignore arguments for or against certain moves, if they feel the argument is not presented with sufficient evidence or reasoning. Do not assume that the existence of a few dissenting posts will ensure that a move will be categorized as controversial.
  • Non-competitive moves should not be discussed in this thread, unless you feel they are incorrectly categorized and should be considered competitive. In this case, you can post reasoned arguments in this thread.

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CAP 6 so far:
Name: Show Me Your Moves!

General Description: A good user of moves with effects not frequently used in the OU metagame.

Justification: There are many moves in Pokémon with great effects, but they often end up unused. Moves such as Gravity, Snatch, and Safeguard have potential in OU, but they are neglected for several reasons: the moves are apparently overshadowed, have poor distribution, or are inefficient compared to another strategy. This CAP uses a combination of typing, ability, and stats to make these underused moves not only feasible, but also capable.

Questions To Be Answered:
  • What mechanics of Pokémon determine how viable moves are?--not only the Pokémon's typing, stats, and ability, but also its interaction with playstyles and momentum.
  • What new strategies might emerge by giving a new OU Pokémon underused moves?
  • What challenges do Pokémon that use lesser-used moves face compared to ones that use a more standard moveset?
  • If the Pokémon has options of staple OU moves (high-powered STABs, offensive stat-boosting moves, reliable recovery, Substitute), will those moves be useful to it, even if it's specialized toward a separate and distinct strategy?
  • Can underused moves increase other underused moves' viabilities?
  • Can one user of a strategy unrecognized in a metagame massively influence a pre-existing playstyle?
Typing: Steel / Flying
Abilities: Intimidate / Volt Absorb / ???
Stats: 50 HP / 92 Atk / 130 Def / 65 SpA / 75 SpD / 118 Spe
Required

Aerial Ace
Return/Frustration
Hidden Power
Facade

Allowed

Drill Peck
Steel Wing
Iron Head
Bullet Punch
Quick Attack
Shadow Sneak
Heavy Slam
Ice Shard
Mach Punch
Hurricane
Flash Cannon
Normal coverage moves
Dark coverage moves
Ghost coverage moves
Poison coverage moves
Bug coverage moves
Grass coverage moves
Ice coverage moves
Rock coverage moves
Special Water coverage moves
Aqua Jet
Brick Break
Drain Punch
Acrobatics

Disallowed

Fighting-based Coverage Moves Over 75 BP
Fire-based Coverage Moves (Skarmory, Jirachi)
Electric-based Coverage Moves (Skarmory)
ExtremeSpeed
Sucker Punch
U-Turn
Physical Water-based Coverage Moves (except Aqua Jet)
Ground-based Coverage Moves
 

DarkSlay

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We're really on fire now!


Posting the same guidelines as last time, as the apply to NAM as much as AM discussion:

Just looking at our concept and how the project has turned out so far, you know that the movepool selection process is going to be crucial for the success of Cawmodore. We’ve carved out a specific niche for Cawmodore to fill, a Belly Drum sweeper, so the moves discussed in this thread should primarily focus on trying to help CAP6 carry out this role. This does not mean that every move must only be useful on Belly Drum sets and those sets only, but Belly Drum should be Cawmodore’s primary set. Keep this in mind when bringing up moves for discussion.

A few ground rules in regards to discussing moves:
  • Yes, the concept is all about utilizing underused moves to Cawmodore’s benefit. However, this does not mean that a move is viable simply because it is an underused move. You will need to provide competitive rationale to justify selecting any move, and underused moves are no exception. I will be choosing the moves that make the most sense competitively.
  • Speaking of which, I’m a very thorough person. I use calculations, competitive examples, and justifications when talking about moves, and having that concrete information goes a long way to helping display your points. Therefore, put in as much thought as possible when bringing up and discussing moves.
  • The initial list is going to be pretty bare: that’s for a reason. Besides for a few key moves that have garnered significant discussion, I want to explore as many discussion opportunities as possible. The list is a “living document” and will be updated regularly. “Need Discussion” is where we’ll start with specific moves, and we’ll move on from there.
Pending

None

Need Discussion

None

Required

Belly Drum
Toxic
Substitute
Protect/Detect
Sleep Talk
Rest

Allowed

Gravity
Haze
Encore
Destiny Bond
Mean Look
Refresh
Weather-Inducing Moves
Knock-Off
Baton Pass

Disallowed

Attack-Boosting Moves (outside of Belly Drum)
Defense-Boosting Moves
Special Defense-Boosting Moves
Speed-Boosting Moves
Status Moves (outside of Toxic)
Recovery Moves (outside of Rest and Roost)
Trick/Switcheroo
Heal Bell
Memento/Healing Wish
Reflect/Light Screen
Stealth Rock
Spikes
Toxic Spikes
Rapid Spin
Whirlwind/Roar
Soak
Leech Seed
Mirror Coat/Counter

Controversial

Roost
Taunt

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This list is pretty filled out as it is: there are moves that very clearly go against the concept or would inhibit Cawmodore from making Belly Drum its best set, so that has been taken into account. In contrast, there is a lot of varied moves in the "Needs Discussion" list and a small amount of moves in the "Allowed" list. Again, as a reminder, Belly Drum should be Cawmodore's best set. It doesn't have to be its /only/ set, but it should be the set that we encourage and is clearly the best set it could possibly run. I will be checking in frequently to gauge discussion and update the list when applicable. Happy posting!
 
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First things first, Baton Pass should get a big disallowed. Why? Once you Belly Drum, you lose a lot of health, but get a steep attack bonus. Baton Pass would pass it on to a Pokemon with full health. This takes away from the concept of Cawmodore being a Belly Drum sweeper to a Belly Drum support. Disallow Baton Pass without hesitation.

Taunt
forces the opponent to use attacking moves. I may be looking at this picture wrong, but I think that might be a terrible idea with this concept. We want to avoid taking damage once we lose a large portion of it to Belly Drum, and forcing the opponent to inflict more sounds like a bad idea. I was going to say allow it, who cares, it is awful, but I thought that it might steer away from the concept a tad too much, so I say disallow it. A similar argument can be used for Counter and Mirror Coat.
 
I oppose the automatic disallowing of recovery moves on the following premises.

CAP 6 needs to be able to Belly Drum sweep

One of the most important parts of a Pokemon in today's metagame is that it be able to do something for your team. We want CAP6 to be a BD sweeper, which is all well and good, but every sweeper in OU has something else going for it: It can come in and even when it is not ready to sweep help its team by acting as a pivot, forcing out a threat, or doing something useful for the team. CAP6 is, currently, built to do none of those things. You also have to remember that every time CAP6 switches in, that's 12.5% from SR and damage from whatever hit it takes on the swap. If it ever falls under 50% HP, it is no longer able to sweep because it can no longer set up BD. It is absolutely critical that CAP6 be able to switch in during the fight, provide some meaningful value to the team (this doesn't have to be hazards or something, like Skarmory, but it has to at least be able to do something), and then get out and still be useful later. If this Pokemon is forced to sit on your bench until it can sweep, you will more often than not find that it never gets the chance to set up and sweep and thus will quickly find its way removed from your team in favor of more reliable and more useful sweepers.

Remember also that CAP6 has this unique problem when it comes to setting up. If it gets two free turns, it's not like it can set up again similar to how something like Salamence or Thundurus-T can. This means that it can't even 'secure' its sweep if it gets that second turn, it has to be able to sweep with only one turn, which puts it so far behind the defining sweeper sets of so many OU Pokemon that it is staggering. If we allow a recovery move, then it could set up BD one turn and heal off the damage a second (although this leaves only two moves for the sweep, mind you, which would be Flying-type + Fighting-type, but leave it open to certain other Pokemon). CAP 6 needs this, I am convinced, to really be able to actually stay usable in OU.

Furthermore, just giving it recovery doesn't make it a good wall. Defensive stats are nice and all, but it can't usurp the throne from Skarmory without being able to do other things like Whirlwind or apply layers of hazards, things CAP6 won't (shouldn't) get. Furthermore, CAP6 is weak without a boost, and really won't be threatening much, so giving it a recovery move alone will not distract from BD as the focus of the Pokemon.

Remember, just because a Pokemon can sweep in perfect conditions doesn't mean that it's a good Pokemon for that metagame. I can sweep with many UU Pokemon in OU, but that doesn't really qualify them for OU, just means I either played spectacularly or the enemy played poorly or teams were in my favor. CAP 6 needs to be an OU presence as a Belly Drum sweeper, and in order to do that, it needs something like recovery.

If we do go the way of allowing a recovery move, the only one I want allowed is Roost. I say Roost because then CAP6 becomes vulnerable to Ground-type attacks, and since it's so fast, this could be capitalized upon by a clever opponent. As far as what weaknesses it loses, it only really loses the Electric-type weakness, and the Pokemon already has Volt Absorb as it is, so that may or may not be relevant at all.

Allow Roost.
 
Disallow Baton Pass

While maybe at some point in the concept having it use Belly Drum to pass along attack boosts would have been fine, at this point Cawmodore is a meant to be a sweeper, Baton Pass would just distract from the idea.

Allow Rest

Allow Encore

Both of these fall into a category of giving up coverage to make it easier to set up. With Rest you can use a Chesto/Lum Berry to recover your health and free up your item slot for Acrobatics, while Encore makes it easier to set up a Belly Drum and discourages other Pokemon from setting up on Cawmodore.

Disallow Sleep Talk


Sleep talk would make it to tempting to just make it a bulky pivot, I think.

Disallow Taunt.

A big check to Cawmodore is status moves and phazing, letting it taunt Skarmory is a bad idea.
 

Bughouse

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OK so here's what matters to me:

Disallow Taunt, this beats Skarmory, something I really don't think we should be able to do.

Allow Destiny Bond, certainly an interesting filler 4th move, but in the end will be inferior to almost any combination of 3 attacks. Useless against scarfers and priority revengers anyway.

Disallow Baton Pass, this will result in a lot of 252 HP 252+ Speed (or whatever most relevant speed is desired) Belly Drum, Sub, Baton Pass with a Salac Berry. Pass that to any reasonably good sweeper with priority (Lucario and Dragonite come to mind) and it's gg. Not a particularly interesting path if you ask me. It avoids all the cons of Belly Drum. If you want Belly Drum + Baton Pass, you should be forced to use Smeargle like a noob.
 
Encore is an interesting mind game of an attack to use. Some opponents, hoping to catch a belly drum, may try and set up themselves especially if they're going for a speed boost. Encore allows a trap, and a free turn to set up or switch.

Rest/sleep talk is an interesting combination, especially with the idea of a Lum Berry and Acrobatics. Personally, I think it's fine, as single attacking sets are never 100% useful, but it depends on the coverage, and if one of the slots is not used for Belly Drum.

I hate the idea of Taunt. It isn't Cawmodore's role, it should use those non-attacking moves as a setup opportunity, and it completely overtakes Skarmory.

Baton Pass, well we're focused on a sweeper, but the opportunity is intriguing. Technically it's still using the signature move, which is in the concept, and allows Intimidate to be used later. It allows our CAP to fill a potentially different role with the same move.

Wish could be used to pass as well, but as most Wish users pass the boost to something else, and switching out without reason is not in line with the concept, I'm frowning on that one as well.

Refresh is mostly there for burns. We have poison immunity, and a possible immunity to Thunder Wave. I say it's fine to be allowed, but I don't know what set would find a spot to put it on.

Counter and Mirror Coat I don't see working out too well. Counter especially, as with Intimidate and Steel typing you'd be hard pressed to do any decent damage back, and why use a move that depends on taking damage when you're already cutting your HP?

As for Weather, I say no. There just isn't going to be a slot used for it. In theory both Sandstorm and Rain Dance would be useful, but I just see Cawmodore with better things to do. Cawmodore has far more potential against opposing rain, shaving off it's weakness and taking Thunders (Vold Absorb) or Hurricaines that it's resistant to.

Soak is an interesting option, but CAP doesn't have much to take advantage of it other than changing resisted hits to neutral. That said, it does allow Sandstorm damage to rack up while Cawmodore is safely immune.

I don't think Destiny Bond is useful, but it has potential against faster counters, and the Belly Drum and speed certainly makes it a viable option for a surprise. I say allow.

On the concept of Roost, I can see it being used as an opportunity to be capabilities upon by a tricky opponent. I see pros and cons, notably gaining back Steel resistances lost to the flying type while giving a major opening to ground moves. I don't know if the tradeoff is too strong, but it is definitely something to be weighed.
 

ganj4lF

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Rising Dusk's points are somewhat valid I guess, but I would still be reclutant to give CAP6 Roost. It already has hugely helpful defensive traits, which allow it to avoid the 2HKO from CB Terrakion with Rocks down, which is impressive. It also retains a very good speed without any investment, which is likely to make viable sets like SubRoost + Toxic, which admittedly is horribly walled by Steels, but still, there may be many other possibilities (I bet) I'm not able to think of that only need a recovery move to become effective. I agree that Skarmory beats CAP6 at many things (hazards, WW, Sturdy to an extent) but the sheer defensive power coupled with Speed that CAP6 can achieve is enough for me to avoid giving it Roost.

On the other hand, Rest can be a different story, IMHO. Rest lets CAP6 vulnerable for an unhealthy amount of time, which will more likely than not result in death with its mediocre special tankiness. Even with Sleep Task, it cannot do much thanks to very restrictive support moves selection and low attack power before a boost. I don't see RestTalk CAP6 as an issue since the most damaging thing it can do is Toxic random switch-ins or absorb Breloom's Spores and force it out.

To sum up,
Allow Rest
Allow Sleep Talk
Disallow Roost

at least until someone makes more convincing arguments for 50% recovery moves.
 

alexwolf

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I could be ok with Roost being allowed, in order to allow the CAP to have use as a pivot prior to setup as Rising_Dusk explained, but only if Taunt is not allowed. The reason being, that a set with Taunt, Roost, Toxic, and one attacking move could become both a good defensive Pokemon and a a great stallbreaker. Only having Roost in our movepool is ok, because we still are outclassed by Skarmory for the most part, which may have lower initial physical bulk, but has Spikes, SR, Whirlwind, and better special bulk, with entry hazards being the most important distinguishing factor obviously. But Taunt and Roost not only allow the CAP to take a defensive role, but also break stall moderately well and act as a good answer to most suicide leads, both things that Skarmory can't do quite as well, due to the much lower Speed. The Pokemon immune to Toxic in OU are: Scizor, Ferrothorn, Heatran, Jirachi, Gengar, Skarmory, Forretress, Tentacruel, Lucario, Magnezone, Metagross, Toxicroak, and Reuniclus. Out of those, Scizor, Forretress, Ferrothorn, and Skarmory are walled and can be slowly killed or stalled out of PP, while Gengar, Toxicroak, and Lucario are all 2HKOed by Drill Peck (or OHKOed in the case of SD Toxicroak). This leaves us with Heatran, Jirachi, Tentacruel, Magnezone, Metagross, and Reuniclus as good answers to the CAP, and defensive Starmie as well, which doesn't care about Toxic and has Recover. While this list is not in any way small, it is small enough to not prevent a stallbreaking set from being a legitimately viable option. And, as we are not sure to what extend the BD set of the CAP will be successful in OU, it's better to not risk creating other potentially more viable sets. Allow Roost if Taunt is disallowed. (Although Roost + BD + Flying STAB + Fighting coverage will be the bane of stall)

Rest + Chesto Berry gives to the CAP a way to deal with status and solve the health loss from BD while simultaneously activating Acrobatics reliably (something that Lum Berry can't do, as you can't control if the opponent will status you), at the cost of coverage or priority. This strategy needs two turns to activate (one turn to setup and one to Rest), making it a very hard strategy to pull off. It makes Cawmodore much easier to setup but also much easier to check. It also gives to the CAP a certain level of versatility, as defensive Pokemon can't be always sure that statusing Cawmodore will work. I really don't see anything negative with this, and the versatility it gives to the CAP is something positive. Allow Rest.

Wish is totally worthless on this Pokemon. To take advantage of it itself, it needs Wish + Protect, meaning that it can't use a Belly Drum set anymore. Supporting its team with Wish is impossible as well, because lol at 120 HP Wishes. There is zero reason to allow this move. Disallow Wish.

Encore is another move that aids setting up, but it's the most situational one. You can't guarantee that the opponent will stay in as you use Encore, and the CAP can't afford to switch-in many times as SR will take its toll and will make it very hard to setup the next time the CAP comes in. However, the potential to setup on any Garchomp, Hippowdon, and Landorus-T that used Earthquake as you switched in or KOed something with it, and defensive Pokemon that used a recovery move or Toxic as you switched in, is still there. Allow Encore.
 
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Korski

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I know we want to make Belly Drum the CAP's best set, and I of course agree with that approach whole-heartedly; however, I don't feel as though we need do disallow so much stuff out of hand in order to do so. I'm talking about fairly useless boosting moves like Agility and Nasty Plot, fairly useless utility moves like Whirlwind and Wish, and the lol@ weather-inducing moves here. Perhaps the idea behind disallowing stuff the CAP can't possibly use competitively is to avoid distraction from the Belly Drum strategy, but the blanket bans on these moves seem overcautious to me if Cawmodore couldn't make use of them even if they made it into the final movepool.

I don't want to waste people's valuable reading time by laying out why the weather-inducing moves, Agility, and Nasty Plot should be allowed for being unusable on this Poke, so I'll talk about Whirlwind/Roar (note: this isn't entirely personal - I wouldn't put all these moves into my own movepool sub). I'll make it short, too. First off, Phazing is a completely overblown strategy in our current OU metagame and is almost as dead as the full stall strategy that put it to any good use. As exhibited by three of the four OU Phazers: Skamory, Hippowdon, and Vaporeon, Phazing moves need entire stat spreads and movesets based around them in order to work, namely reliable recovery (Roost, Slack Off, Wish/Protect) and a method of applying residual damage while stalling (Spikes, Stealth Rock/Sandstorm, Scald), in addition to defenses enough to wall a significant portion of the metagame (SpD Hippowdon and Vaporeon are both damn near impossible to OHKO). Even with a super unreasonable 252 HP / 252+ Def spread, this CAP would have absolutely zero advantages over Skarmory in any of these regards and would lack any real ability to support its own Phazing. Cawmodore gets most of its power from its Speed stat, so there's no chance that being the fastest -1 priority user in OU is going to make any waves competitively.

It's a pity that Roost had to be put into the Controversial category already, because the comparisons to Skarmory become much more apparent when people assume Roost + Whirlwind is a possibility, which IMO it shouldn't be. In a vacuum, neither of these two moves on their own should derail the CAP's Belly Drum focus, and I don't think it's beyond the ability of movepool voters to realize they shouldn't be together in the same movepool.

In any case, I don't like disallowing "everything" because the CAP needs "nothing" to accomplish its goals. Obviously, there are moves that would actually be very competitively viable and distracting, and they are rightfully disallowed, but the plainly terrible moves that might actually make for good flavor don't need the same treatment.
 

nyttyn

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Disallow Soak
Soak: Lets us beat and/or do way more damage then we should be doing to every single one of our checks (do you know what they all have in common? They resist our main STABs. Soak makes them no longer resist Flying). Doesn't really do anything otherwise for CAP6 aside from flavor, CAP6 has no real way to capitalize on most pokemon being turned into water types and it wouldusually prefer to use the moveslot for something else.

Disallow Healing Wish
Obvious one here. If Memento is disallowed, Healing Wish should also be disallowed (they both involve saccing a pokemon for gain, and we aren't exactly interested in saccing CAP 6)

Disallow Baton Pass
CAP6 has rather little merit in being a passer in a Baton Pass chain. It kind of distracts from the whole "belly drum set up" angle and might risk him being used as a baton pivot a la Scizor, thus distracting us. Plus Baton Pass completely goes against CAP6's spread.

Allow Weather-inducing Moves
These only get used for flavor, if they are ever given to a pokemon. Kingdra is basically the only user of any manual weather move in OU and that's because it has Swift Swim. No reason to disallow them, CAP6 has basically no reason to use them in the first place. Almost nobody has any reason to use them in the first place.

Allow Roost
Just gonna mimic Dusk here, he said everything I wanted to say. Without hazards/whirlwind CAP6 just becomes a vastly shittier Skarmory, and I'm inclined to believe a BD set will be superior to a vastly shittier skarmory.
 
It's a pity that Roost had to be put into the Controversial category already, because the comparisons to Skarmory become much more apparent when people assume Roost + Whirlwind is a possibility, which IMO it shouldn't be. In a vacuum, neither of these two moves on their own should derail the CAP's Belly Drum focus, and I don't think it's beyond the ability of movepool voters to realize they shouldn't be together in the same movepool.
I think this is a good point. Alexwolf also mentions in his post that "Roost is fine, but Taunt with Roost is bad", and really that's also a good point. I thought of these things as well, and I think they merit discussion in their own right. A lot of these moves on their own aren't a problem, the problem comes when you mix and match two or more of them. Roost is a great move for CAP6, in my opinion, and has actual valid uses on a BD set for maybe a less out-of-the-gate-one-shot BD set, but if we give CAP6 Roost alongside things like Taunt or phazing, it starts to become a distraction.

I believe that Roost is a move that is not distracting from BD on its own and has the potential to be useful on BD sets as well. It is also important to note that this ties into the AM move selection as well, because if we get Drain Punch, Roost will become irrelevant. Given CAP6's low HP stat, a +6 Drain Punch against something like, say, Skarmory will restore anywhere from 1/3 to 1/2 of CAP6's HP. Against Ferrothorn it's nearly a 2/3 heal. These are hugely significant percents being restored by Drain Punch, so much so that if it's in a movepool no one would actually use Roost. But without Drain Punch, Roost sees a lot of serious consideration for giving CAP6 some durability to "be a better OU Pokemon" as it tries to get into a position where it can drop Belly Drum and sweep. And, really, I think CAP6 needs all the help it can get to be a better OU Pokemon, because without that quality, the only way it'll actually see use is if the BD set is so good that it sweeps entire segments of the meta unhindered (I consider this to be bad).

Anyway, it's controversial, and I think the proper other moves are disallowed so I've said enough here.

As for what's left, I say allow Baton Pass, allow Refresh, disallow Mirror Coat / Counter, allow Mean Look, and disallow Soak.

Let's think about this. Baton Pass encourages us to pass Belly Drum, which maintains our use of Belly Drum. Note that any movepool with Baton Pass should avoid including moves like Agility or Nasty Plot, as that encourages using something other than BD itself. Still, Baton Pass is good, and should be allowed. Refresh is a pretty terrible move, but it could be useful if we really wanted to use it on a BD set for status clearing. Really, though, it wouldn't see use, and ChestoRest + Acrobatics is better for a status clear anyway on BD sets. It doesn't distract, though, so no reason to disallow it. Mirror Coat and Counter are... totally illogical for this Pokemon, and lend it to some crazy non-BD tank set thing, so get these out of here. Soak is also in the same boat. Seriously, what is that even for? You're not going to do anything with Soak beyond 'maybe' force some switches, but it certainly isn't of any value on BD sets, so it is totally distracting. Meanwhile, Mean Look is just a bad move. Do you really want to trap your enemy's switch-in to CAP6? That doesn't make any sense. You also can't pass it any more, so it's really just a bad move and shouldn't even be a concern.
 

Scoopapa

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Although I don't see Mirror Coat / Counter being that useful due to our low HP, I would like to see them allowed just for theoretical reasons. Basically, because a Belly Drummer is going to encourage your opponent to play extremely conservatively (i.e. just attack constantly so you can't set up) it seems theoretically sound to have some ability to punish conservative play from your opponent, which Mirror Coat / Counter do. It's unlikely to be a major factor, but it could be useful in some situations because of the pressure we apply. Basically, even if this led to a non-Belly Drum set, it would be exactly the kind of non-Belly Drum set we are okay with: one that makes your opponent question their typical response to the Belly Drum sets.
 
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Disallow Mean Look
Disallow Soak
Disallow Mirror Coat/Counter
Disallow Wish
Allow Refresh
Allow Encore

Pretty much what Dusk said - they're bad moves and they're distracting to the concept of a BD set-up. There's no reason why these should be allowed. Refresh and Encore are the only ones that aren't distracting to the concept. Encore nets free turns to set-up, while Refresh clears status that could stop a BD set. Not the best thing, but they don't completly distract the concept like the others.

Not sure about Baton Pass

On one hand, during the whole CAP process we have focused on making a BD sweeper. Allowing BP would be a sudden change to what we have had planned for this CAP. However, Baton Pass does still technically follow the main concept, as it is still using BD as its main move. Not only that, but it would give some variety to what is otherwise a one-trick pony. At the moment, I am undecided on this.
Allow Roost

Even if this thing had Roost, there would be no reason to use it over Skarm, which does it better. Addressing ganj4lF, it is true that, thanks to the high speed, a SubToxic Roost set is possible. However, a set such as that is just screaming for Steel-types to come in, most of which can easily set-up hazards and are pretty common on teams. A SubToxic Roost wouldn't be any good because it lets your opponent set-up hazards. This is especially true when you consider that our CAP is piss weak before a BD. Meanwhile, Roost is very much needed for CAP to do as good as possible. Like Dusk said, CAP without Roost can't abuse 2 free turns like other set-up sweepers. With Roost, however, it is able to use free turns outside of the first to heal itself up. I think this is very important to this CAP.
 

DarkSlay

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This is the 24 hour warning for this thread. This is your last chance to get in your thoughts on the pending NAM moves, which are the following:

Taunt
Baton Pass
Agility/Rock Polish


Remember, discussion should focus on these three specific moves only. These moves need more discussion before we can move on to the next stage of movepools.
 
Allow Agility/Rock Polish

While I don't think they'll be that useful, I see no way they require not allowing. With Agility you become faster then a lot of things, yes but you really lack the power to do anything about it. I guess you could try a Double Dance thing but you know, taking two turns of set up, one of which requires cutting your HP in half, isn't that good.
 

Bughouse

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I already expressed my opinions on Taunt and Baton Pass, both of which I would rather see disallowed. I thought I'd add in now for sake of completeness an opinion on the Speed Boosters. I see no reason to disallow these. Setting up once is hard enough, twice would be nigh impossible. And even if CAP 6 manages it, it is still taking quite a bit from a Scizor or a BandNite etc using priority. And if it's using priority anyway, it only has space for Drill Peck/Acrobatics, meaning something like Magnezone hard counters it. Basically, it's a bad move on CAP 6. No reason not to allow it. Allow Agility/Rock Polish.
 

Nyktos

Custom Loser Title
Baton Pass
There's nothing wrong with CAP 6 passing Belly Drums. Our goal is to make effective use of an underused move and if it turns out that Baton Pass is more effective than attempting to actually sweep, so be it. We've already disallowed most other boosting moves, so there's no risk of the CAP preferring to pass those. However, there is one issue and that's Substitute. While pure SubPass is not an especially common strategy, it does mean that potentially a non-Belly Drum set using Baton Pass could be viable. That said, such a set is likely to be niche enough that it's won't overshadow Belly Drum, and as we determined early on there's nothing inherently wrong with the CAP having other sets. Allow Baton Pass.

Agility and friends

It's silly to be afraid of these as they're not really all that powerful. Not many Pokémon attempt to set up and sweep by boosting Speed only, and those that do have a lot more than 92 base Attack. Conversely, though, there is no way a Pokémon is ever going to carry these together with Belly Drum, so there isn't any particular reason why they should be allowed. If Baton Pass ends up allowed, passing them becomes a viable path that doesn't involve Belly Drum and is a fair bit better than straight SubPass. Even if Baton Pass ends up disallowed, these really don't have much potential to be anything but a distraction: having other sets is nice for surprise value but not when those sets are also setup sweepers. Disallow Agility (and Autotomize and Rock Polish).

Taunt

This one is tricky. It can, in theory, help with setup; we've seen Taunt + a boosting move as a usable if fairly niche strategy before on Pokémon such as Haxorus. This is nice since setting up is still tricky for CAP 6. It does, however, screw with Skarmory, which normally carries no moves that actually hurt CAP 6 and thus must rely on phazing. Turning off both Roost and Whirlwind means that ultimately CAP 6 wins against Skarmory, which is currently our only hard counter. Given that Taunt's ability to help setup is a little questionable anyway since it requires ditching priority or coverage, it seems most prudent to disallow Taunt.
 
I do not care for the rest of the attacks as much as I do for Baton Pass. This move should be disallowed. I see people trying to express that it should be allowed because there is "no problem with passing Belly Drum, as long as it gets used" but I feel that is not exactly what was meant when we decided Belly Drum would be part of this CAP's best set. We built this CAP so far around sweeping with Belly Drum, and I truly hope that it stays focused on that. Baton Pass does make use out of Belly Drum, I will admit to that, but the only thing keeping Cawmodore from being more viable than Smeargle here is Intimidate. The way I see it, allowing Baton Pass will result in the most viable set being Intimidate with Belly Drum/Baton Pass to Scizor or Metagross, who will destroy everything in their path. In the end, it does not matter how much balance we try putting in our attacking moves or stats, with Baton Pass, we can just switch to someone with higher stats and access to stronger attacks.

Disallow Baton Pass.
 

alexwolf

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Allow Agility. Agility does nothing bad for the CAP, as Agility sets are a joke on this Pokemon. I guess it doesn't do any good either, but i feel like flavor reasons might be good enough reasoning on a case of a competitive move that doesn't have any competitive influence on the CAP (Agility is key move of birds). If not, just disregard this part.

Disallow Baton Pass and Taunt. Roost seems like it will have a chance of making it to the CAP's movepool and as i explained already i don't like the implications for a more defensive oriented set utilizing Roost + Taunt to stallbreak. I don't like Baton Pass because if Taunt makes it to the movepool, a dedicated Baton Pass set for full Baton Pass teams might become a legitimate distraction. I also don't like the idea of a +6 Atk boost passed to something like DD Dragonite or Choice Scarf Garchomp, which actually have very nice defensive synergy with the CAP.
 
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Personally I don't see any defense for Taunt as I read the thread, but as it's still on the table...

I don't just feel that Taunt is a tool to defeat our checks and counters, namely Skarmory and Ferrothorn whose offensive moves are ineffective and rely on passive stall techniques, but it's actually anti-concept.

Non-attacking moves are potential setup opportunities in the case of boosting moves, and when our main strategy requires a mandatory health-cut, using a move that guarantees losing more health to attacks doesn't make sense. I can't think of a single way Taunt accomplishes our goals here.

It may not be what some people are hoping for, but Baton Pass violates no rules of the concept.

The argument regarding it is splitting hairs over whether a passing set is true to the spirit of what we want. In all fairness though, we can't just discredit a viable idea because we don't like it. Frankly I'm surprised no one thought of this approach earlier as a way to make the concept work. It does make Belly Drum viable in an OU environment, even if it is only a passing role. I do concede on one level however, we already know this works. Smeargle (and others?) have already proven this, though Cawmodore may have much better tools to do so. There may be a limited amount of information to gain, but we will have information on how the metagame can change when such a pass becomes more easily available.

There's no reason not to allow it, but I also throw my support behind Baton Pass, if nothing else for the selfish desire for variety. Making a usable Belly Drum sweeper is an easy concept on paper and we're doing that. However, if we really put all of our eggs into making it the most viable set, then where is it going to be successful when everyone knows what to play around? I don't think we would learn much from that approach, and after all isn't that what CAP is about?

Agility and Rock Polish, I'm going to vote against for many similar reasons for previous debates. Simply put, we chose the stats, and especially Speed for a reason. If boosting moves were seriously considered to be in play at the stats stage, they would have been brought up. We didn't build for boosts, so why have them? Especially when it can threaten some threats we specifically noted such as Starmie.

Obviously this ties into my support for Baton Pass as well, as it would be another stat that can go to another Pokemon when Belly Drum is the target. Granted, there are other Passers for Agility, but Intimidate and Steel typing make the pass a strong possibility, and could allow it to take over Cawmodore's role if both moves are allowed.

In short, I see no reason for speed boosts to be used, but certainly not together with Baton Pass.
 

DetroitLolcat

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Taunt

Taunt allows us to set up against defensive Pokemon such as Hippowdon, who we would like to threaten. It also helps us against Thunder Wave Jirachi (provided we're not using Volt Absorb) and Ferrothorn (who can no longer Leech Seed us). Although Taunt does give us a potential out against Skarmory, CAP6 will still have to watch its HP against Brave Bird and CAP6 may still have problems defeating Skarmory even with Taunt. Since Belly Drum, Flying STAB, and Bullet Punch are very likely to occupy three of CAP6's moveslots, if CAP6 decides to run Taunt then it will have problems with Skarmory unless it runs a highly specialized set. Most sweepers in OU can escape their counters if they run highly specialized sets, so I don't have a problem with Taunt appearing in our final movepool. Furthermore, Taunt makes Heatran and Magnezone nearly full stops to CAP6. No matter what moves we put in CAP6's movepool, it's not going to be able to do it all with two attacking moves and Taunt. I would like to point out one potential problem with Taunt, and that is the combination of Taunt, Roost, and one of our abilities. I'm decidedly against Roost: we have Drain Punch and Horn Leech already allowed, but if we give Cawmodore a litany of defensive moves combined with two defensive Abilities, then we really can't expect Belly Drum to be Cawmodore's flagship set. Taunt, Roost, and either Intimidate or Volt Absorb make Cawmodore one tough nut to crack, so I'd be wary of allowing both Roost and Taunt. If they both end up allowed, then I hope the movepool submitters realize how potent that combination is.

Baton Pass

Baton Pass opens up a world of possibilities. The concept for this Pokemon is to explore the various uses of the move Belly Drum; we would be remiss to overlook how Cawmodore could Baton Pass the Belly Drum boost to a buddy. Furthermore, Baton Pass doesn't even solve Cawmodore's weakness to Roar and Whirlwind. Skarmory can still phaze away any Pokemon in the tier, and Cawmodore will not receive any additional opportunities to set up and sweep with Baton Pass in its movepool. Many users have complained about Cawmodore not being viable or being largely outclassed by other Physical sweepers if it doesn't receive an extensive attacking movepool (e.g., Drain Punch, Brick Break), but Baton Pass undeniably gives Cawmodore a niche that both ensures its viability and explores two underrated moves in line with the concept. Remember, the letter of the law with Cawmodore's concept is to explore underrated or underappreciated moves; to disallow Baton Pass is to deny Cawmodore a move that contributes greatly to its concept. Definitely Allow Baton Pass.

Agility/Rock Polish


I cannot think of a single way in which these moves would benefit the concept. Agility and Rock Polish certainly aren't unappreciated moves; Thundurus-Therian commonly runs Agility and Landorus-Incarnate ran Rock Polish all the time during its stint in OU. These moves certainly aren't powerful at all; only a fool would use Agility Cawmodore without Belly Drum and expect it to sweep. However, Agility could easily supplant Belly Drum on a Baton Pass set. We're here to explore Belly Drum, and if Baton Pass is allowed then Agility has no place on this Pokemon. Personally, I see a combination of Belly Drum and Baton Pass to be extremely interesting, and I don't want a normally unviable move that doesn't contribute to the concept disrupting that strategy. Disallow Agility if Baton Pass is allowed. If Baton Pass is disallowed, then it really couldn't matter less if Agility is allowed.
 
Baton Pass undeniably gives Cawmodore a niche that both ensures its viability and explores two underrated moves in line with the concept.
This line of thinking is awesome! It's easy to forget with all the focus on Belly Drum that we were looking at underused moves. Plural. True we know how Baton Pass works, but it's very much a niche.
 

alexwolf

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DetroitLolcat said:
Furthermore, Baton Pass doesn't even solve Cawmodore's weakness to Roar and Whirlwind. Skarmory can still phaze away any Pokemon in the tier, and Cawmodore will not receive any additional opportunities to set up and sweep with Baton Pass in its movepool.
Sorry, but this makes no sense. You just said to allow Taunt + Baton Pass and then said that the CAP has no way to prevent phazing.
 
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I'll make it short and sweet.
Allow Baton Pass, but only in the absence of any other boosting move.

Our CAP is supposed to make Belly Drum viable, but no one says he has to use baton pass himself. The downside here is that it's kinda a big "F*** you" to pokémon who are supposed to wall him, but I still think it's very pro-concept. I wouldn't be heartbroken if it doesn't make the cut, but I'm throwing my vote behind it
 
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