CAP 17 CAP 6 - Part 2 - Typing Discussion

[jas61292]

So, I'd like to throw in with the Poison/Steel camp, as I feel that, of all they types that have been brought up here, it is the one most suited to give us the opportunities we need as a belly drummer, without giving anything more than we need. While I think Korski hit on most of the important points in his first post, I do think there are a few things worth re-emphasizing. First off, I know some people have brought up concerns that, while Poison/Steel has a lot of resists, many Pokemon have sets where at least one thing can hit neutral, making set up hard. Personally, I think this concern is overblown.

Look for a second at the Pokemon that run around OU. Which would a Poison/Steel Pokemon want to set up on? Dragons, opposing Steels that lack coverage, maybe Tyranitar or Terrakion, Gengar, etc. As already stated we have a lot of resistances. But yes, its true, most of those Pokemon can hit neutrally. So what? Half of the Pokemon there have Choice items on one of, if not their single most, common sets. Catch a Scizor on a CB Bullet Punch, or a Terrakion on a Scarfed Stone Edge. There are tons of opportunities for free set up. But even beyond that, I think insisting on free set up is unnecessary in and of itself. I mean, take Tyranitar for example. Yes, it could have a fire move. Yes, it could have Earthquake. Either way, is it going to be staying in on what is likely an offensively trained steel type? Probably not. We need to remember that set up opportunities are going to be important to pull off for us, and simply being able to do it whenever won't, and frankly shouldn't, happen. I think everyone needs to remember that we don't necessarily need to use Belly Drum the minute that we step into battle for the first time. I mean, if you could set up Belly Drum so easily, you would need to be fairly pathetic after setting up in order to be balanced. What I like so much about this typing is that it gives us ample opportunities to set up, but actually does require a bit of thinking on the players part, and can't just be an auto operating sweeper.

Another thing I love about this typing is that, frankly, it is bad offensively. I have heard a lot of people commenting with things like "...but Poison sucks offensively. Why not Ghost?" The answer is right in the sentence before the question. Because poison sucks offensively. Being better at something does not always make a type better for our purposes, and I think this is the perfect example. One thing we really want to do is encourage Belly Drum to be the most common set, and honestly, if you can do well without it, it will not be your most common set. That is why I think bad offensive STABs are key to making sure Belly Drum is used. When a Pokemon is operating at +0, STABs matter. A lot. If you don't get good coverage, you are not going to be breaking much. However, at +6, that is no longer true in the slightest. Even a not very effective non-STAB coverage moves hit harder at +6 than a neutral hitting STAB move would at +0. To be quite honest, when we are at +6, what our STABs are means next to nothing compared to what overall coverage we have in our movepool. By limiting our STAB offensive potential, we can further guarantee reliance on Belly Drum more than we ever could with a good offensive typing.


On a different note, I just want to say that I think Normal-types of any kind are not good for this Pokemon. Lets be completely honest here, when people have been saying that they think Normal would be a good type, all they actually mean by it is that they want STAB Extremespeed. Now, as I already expressed in concept assessment, I think this approach to the project is one that we have already seen and would not be a valuable experience to have. Beyond that though, I think it is important to remember that the usefulness of ExtremeSpeed is not in its power but in its priority. Sure, power is nice, but that is not why you use it. So, if we want ESpeed, we can give it, no matter what type we are, and between abilities and stats, we can get it at whatever power level we want. STAB is completely irrelevant. If we want to score X KO, we will score X KO regardless of typing. In fact, as I already said, I think that we should try and stay away from any desirable offensive typings as having good STABs is not an incentive to risk a BD. Either way, there is absolutely nothing about Normal itself as a typing that is desirable for this Pokemon, so I can't see why we should be considering it at all.

 

[capefeather]

I've finally read the whole thread, so I'll comment on some of these.

First of all, I don't really get what Normal / Steel is supposed to offer compared to other Steel-types. jas has just beaten me to the bulk of the commentary I might have wanted to say on this...

I think that a recap is in order, not only to remind people of the good arguments made in favour of some typings, but also to help digest the arguments more so that they can be discussed better. Keep in mind that this is just how I'm reading it, and I may make mistakes along the way because I haven't had an opportunity to read the thread until now. Poison / Steel mainly goes off of the argument that mediocre STABs are good for the concept, while Ghost / Steel seems preferable to many people for the slick defensive palette it brings, especially against the most common priority moves. Water / Ghost is an alternative to Ghost / Steel for people who are iffy about the Steel typing. Then we have Dragon / Water and Dragon / Steel, which aim for the opposite of Poison / Steel: strong offense with focused resistances.

 

[JacobM]

Just a quick post to throw some support behind Fire/Steel for typing. We know what a Fire/Steel type can do in this metagame; force tons of switches both offensively and defensively. How many site analyses read "...or run X so you aren't walled by Heatran"? Fire/Steel can reliably come in on defensive Pokemon like Ferro or Forry or etc and force a switch with offensive presence, or force something out that just can't hit it.

 

[Bughouse]

So here's what's been bugging me about Poison/Steel (and all Steel/not Dragon). A key point in its favor has been the Dragon resistance as if that somehow eases set up.

Ok. So first of all, if the Dragon is not choiced, Dragonite, Salamence, Haxorus, Garchomp, and some Hydreigon all carry a Ground move. Kyurem-B and Latios have really strong attacks with neutral damage too. That's fine though, we'll set up on choiced Dragon moves, right?

All of these calculations to follow are done with 100/100/100 base HP and defenses and no defensive investment on the part of CAP 6. Let's see what we can safely set up on and give up 50% of health for.

252+ Atk Choice Band Kyurem-B Outrage vs. 0 HP / 0 Def (custom): 197-232 (57.77 - 68.03%)
252 Atk Choice Scarf Kyurem-B Outrage vs. 0 HP / 0 Def (custom): 120-141 (35.19 - 41.34%)

252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Outrage vs. 0 HP / 0 Def (custom): 165-194 (48.38 - 56.89%)

252 Atk Choice Band Garchomp Outrage vs. 0 HP / 0 Def (custom): 147-173 (43.1 - 50.73%)
252 Atk Choice Scarf Garchomp Outrage vs. 0 HP / 0 Def (custom): 98-116 (28.73 - 34.01%)

252 Atk Choice Scarf Salamence Outrage vs. 0 HP / 0 Def (custom): 101-119 (29.61 - 34.89%) - BUT this isn't even realistic because if you're coming in safely on a ScarfMence, it's after something died, so it's actually
+1 252 Atk Choice Scarf Salamence Outrage vs. 0 HP / 0 Def (custom): 151-178 (44.28 - 52.19%)

252+ Atk Choice Band Haxorus Outrage vs. 0 HP / 0 Def (custom): 177-208 (51.9 - 60.99%)

-2 252+ SpA Choice Specs Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD (custom): 92-108 (26.97 - 31.67%)

-2 252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD (custom): 86-102 (25.21 - 29.91%)
-2 252 SpA Choice Scarf Latios Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD (custom): 57-68 (16.71 - 19.94%)

So here are the plausible scenarios: Have something sacrificed to a (weaker) choiced Dragon move. Switch in your CAP 6, take hazard damage , sacrifice 50% of health, plus the next 16% from a Scarf Latios (or more if it's a Scarf Outrage or Specs Draco). Now, congratulations. You are now in the potential revenge-ability range of several OU priority users.

So for all that effort of waiting for a chance to set up on a Dragon choice locked into a resisted move, you must first sacrifice a teammate, then set up, get your revenge kill, whereupon you are immediately revenge killed by some of OU's top priority threats.

Setting up on "resisted Dragon moves" is a fallacy. Maybe it can work against Scarf Latios, but not much else.

The only things that can be set up on due to typing alone are 4x resists and immunities. 2x resists do not cut it in the power-packed OU environment when Belly Drum is our focus. And this is all even putting aside the fact that a 100/100/100 Steel/Poison type screams Defense.

I cannot support anyone arguing we will get set-up opportunities against choiced Dragons until and unless they prove me otherwise.

 

[Stratos]

Another thing I love about this typing is that, frankly, it is bad offensively. I have heard a lot of people commenting with things like "...but Poison sucks offensively. Why not Ghost?" The answer is right in the sentence before the question. Because poison sucks offensively. Being better at something does not always make a type better for our purposes, and I think this is the perfect example. One thing we really want to do is encourage Belly Drum to be the most common set, and honestly, if you can do well without it, it will not be your most common set. That is why I think bad offensive STABs are key to making sure Belly Drum is used. When a Pokemon is operating at +0, STABs matter. A lot. If you don't get good coverage, you are not going to be breaking much. However, at +6, that is no longer true in the slightest. Even a not very effective non-STAB coverage moves hit harder at +6 than a neutral hitting STAB move would at +0. To be quite honest, when we are at +6, what our STABs are means next to nothing compared to what overall coverage we have in our movepool. By limiting our STAB offensive potential, we can further guarantee reliance on Belly Drum more than we ever could with a good offensive typing.

did u just imply that steel/ghost is a solid typing offensively because lol

Just ask metagross how far Steel STAB gets you in a tier with 10 water and 9 steel type Pokemon, and ghost's best physical STAB is shadow claw. So yeah, this isn't actually an argument that sets steel/ghost back at all; they're both in the same camp here, except steel/ghost actually has legitimate setup opportunities.

 

[Mikasa]

I still think Ghost/Steel is a really dangerous type for the project, as I said before it has the potential to be the best spinblocker in the entire tier, which is bad because of two reasons, the first one is spinning should not become even harder than it already is with SR being already arguably broken and the second and most important reason is that spinblockers want to stick around longer (at least long enough to outlast the spinner) meaning our mon's "best set" can easily become one that doesn't use Belly Drum at all, sure we can try to work around that with the right status and movepoll, but it will still be dangerous.

However maybe we should take the risk, because other than the spinblocking dilema, ghost/steel gives us everything we need, great resistances/immunities for us to setup, bad STABs so we need to setup, and even two STAB priorities if we want to go that route.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Now I am on a tablet, so I will keep my post quite brief, but given what we have decided so far for this CAP. The pokémon will be a belly drum user, so it will pretty much rely on priority attacks to perform a role as a sweeper. It needs to be bulky enough to survive for a turn while it sets up, but to be truly useful, it needs to be strong enough to sweep and fast enough to avoid getting revenge killed by other priority attacks, that means it'd be best suited to having a strong defensive TYPING to Grant it survivability rather than defensive stats (those stats are in more needed for speed and some decent attack).

STEEL seems obvious as it is a great defensive typing and offers access to STAB bullet punch, but the second typing is where we need to make a decision.

My vote is for STEEL/FIGHTING as this offers not only great coverage with Mach Punch, but also allows the pokémon to shrug off stealth rock which could otherwise really screw up his ability to even set up in the first place (even with a sitrus berry, retaining over 50% hp can be a tall order if stealth rock can chunk the pokémon's HP too easily.). The obvious downside here is the lack of stab extremespeed which is the only priority attack with reasonable base power. Now I personally don't think that that is even a large problem as there are no shortage of abilities which can be used to boost the power of his STAB bullet and mach punches. We can even use abilities which are narrow and vary in how strongly they boost it.

The only other real option to me is STEEL/NORMAL which trades better defensive and offensive coverage for access to STAB extremespeed and the ability to switch into ghost typed attacks for free and access to a broader range of abilities (i.e. If you have extremespeed, you don't need iron fist, technician, or adaptability to boost your STAB priority attack, because extremespeed is strong enough on its own).

Now, personally I'd rather see STEEL/FIGHTING but I see the merits of either type.

 

[loco1234]

I haven't given a whole lot of thought to a typing combination that benefits Movemon, but I would like to express my opposition to Ghost/Normal. That opposition is based primarily around my understanding of the CAP project. We want to see how this particular concept affects the meta, and in my opinion to do that as effectively as possible we need to minimize the CAP's impact in other areas. I feel giving the CAP Ghost/Normal messes with something we all accept as a part of the OU metagame (and any metagame, for that matter), and that is Ghost/Fighting's perfect neutral coverage. The reason I oppose Ghost/Normal is that it's the only type combination in the game that resists Ghost/Fighting coverage (it's actually outright immune). While the only major user of this coverage in OU is Gengar (that I can think of right now, but then I'm usually missing an obvious one), the most popular (and effective) Gengar set is its SubDisable set, which uses Ghost/Fighting as its offense. While Gengar is only one Pokemon in the metagame, it is a popular one due to being a powerful offensive spinblocker with perfect neutral coverage. If our CAP were Ghost/Normal, that Gengar set would be able to do absolutely nothing to it, thus impacting the metagame in a way that is not linked to the concept. If we were trying to see how the introduction of such a typing would affect the metagame, naturally, I'd be all for it. But we want to see how an effective Belly Drummer impacts the game, and giving it Ghost/Normal effectively makes it a win condition against any team that has a Gengar (I agree with those who said this thing has to be pretty much a win condition if it sets up by the sheer virtue of how hard Belly Drum can be to set up without a team built around it). If their Gengar is out unless they switch it on the turn Movemon comes in, Movemon will set up and Gengar can't do anything to stop it. To me that seems like it would impact the meta in ways we don't want and make it harder to see the effectiveness of Belly Drum. Just my take on it though, and I'm fairly inexperienced with creating a CAP. I've been following the process since Aurumoth started, but this is the first one I've actually contributed to.

 

[Hailblue]

I like what Orkid said about Dragon/Fighting.

One type I want to explore more is Dragon/Fighting, which Birkal and I both brought up sorta by the way - this type resists water, electric, grass, fire, steel, rock, bug. That means you resist volt/turn! We have access to stab priority if we want to include it in the movepool stage. We have some bad weaknesses (psychic, flying, dragon, ice) but not tons of them. We resist stealth rock. also with bellydrum lower power fighting moves like DRAIN PUNCH(!), Brick break, force palm, and low sweep become more viable, and means we don't have to give it close combat or even superpower.

We do not really need to cover too many stab moves with a +6 stat. What we should explore with this pokemon is the secondary effects of weaker attacks. Since our mon already has such a ridiculous attack, playing to some physical moves that have very interesting secondary effects would be cool. Fighting is the most competitive PHYSICAL type with usable moves that have secondary effects. We not only need to think of what we resist when we choose CAP6 mon's type, we also need to think about what it's type will mean throughout the build. I find that dragon adds the resists, while fighting adds the variety.

 

[psykokitty]

Another general concern I have with Steel, I also share concern with Water typing -- and that is the meta is almost oversaturated with those types already. The metagame is already incredibly prepared for all forms of Steel and Water types -- which means one of two things:

1) We are faced with a meta that is completely prepared to shut us down.
OR
2) We make CAP6 overpower a metagame completely prepared for it.
​

Neither of those is good.

I was thinking about making an argument for Water/Steel, but then I read Doug's post, which turned me off from either type. I've noticed some more Dragon/??? combos coming up again since this post came up - is Dragon very different from Steel or Water, in the sense that the metagame is already prepared for it?

What about something like Electric/Poison? Its resistances are as follows:

x4: Ground
x2: Psychic
X1: Fire, Water, Ice, Dark, Ghost, Rock, Normal, Dragon
x0.5: Grass, Fighting, Bug, Poison, Electric, Steel, Flying
x0.25: None
x0: None

It only sports 6 resistances, but they seem to be a useful set - it would resist Volt Switch, U-Turn, Mach Punch/Vaccuum Wave, and Bullet Punch as well as being immune to Toxic Spikes. The x4 Ground weakness, neutrality to Stealth Rocks, and vulnerability to burn and paralysis seem to be the greatest drawbacks. Also, I know it doesn't give any STAB priority moves, but as others have argued in this thread, STAB may not be necessary for CAP6 to pull off a successful priority sweep at +6. The physical STAB that it does offer exemplifies the kinds of underused moves that the concept is getting at. Cross Poison, Thunderpunch, and the like become much more viable after a +6 boost, giving us many more options once we get to the movepool stage.

 

[Scoopapa]

Whether or not we want priority, I don't think that having STAB on a 40 BP priority is necessarily such a big deal. We have 80 BP STAB moves in Extremespeed and Sucker Punch that can out-damage those, anyway, so unless you are thinking of hitting certain crucial targets, STAB on 40 BP priority isn't that much of a selling point for a type while the 80 BP moves remain on the table. Sucker Punch's mechanics might have a niche applicability to the concept that the others don't anyway, but I can't get into that too much in this thread. Aqua Jet also gets special mention as you can hook it up with pseudo STAB if you want to using rain.

 

[PokemonMasterDebater]

(This post has been somewhat rushed and shortened. I may come back and add more details later.)
I agree with many others, that it is important to resist Volt/Turn. Because of that, I looked up every possible type combination that resists both bug and electric. Those typings are:

• Fire/Electric
• Fire/Ground
• Fire/Dragon
• Electric/Fighting*
• Electric/Poison
• Electric/Ghost
• Electric/Steel
• Fighting/Ground
• Fighting/Dragon*
• Poison/Ground
• Poison/Dragon
• Ground/Flying*
• Ground/Ghost*
• Ground/Steel
• Ghost/Dragon
• Dragon/Steel

Typings with asterisks are ones that interest me the most

Pros and cons of each individual type.

• Fire: Immunity to burns and resistant to Bullet Punch and Ice Shard, but poor defensive typing overall, weak to SR, and lacks priority.
• Electric: Resistance to Bullet Punch, only one weakness (granted it is common), but lacks good physical STAB and priority.
• Fighting: Great offensive typing, good STAB attacks, STAB Mach Punch, and resistance to SR. No major cons.
• Poison: Resistance to Mach Punch/Vacuum Wave, immunity to toxic, but poor offensive typing, 1 very common weakness, and no STAB priority.
• Ground: Immunity to Electric, resistance to SR, and good STAB attacks, but has common weaknesses (2 of which have priority), and no priority.
• Ghost: Immunity to 2 types (4 forms of priority), STAB Shadow Sneak, but lacks good physical STAB, and is weak to Sucker Punch/Pursuit.
• Dragon: Great neutral STAB Coverage, but weak to 2 common types (1 of which has priority), and lacks STAB priority.
• Steel: Great defensive typing, immunity to toxic, and STAB Bullet punch, but weak to common types, and is poor offensively.

Combos that I like:

• Electric/Fighting: Somewhat complementary STAB coverage, resists SR, and has STAB priority.
• Fighting/Dragon: Perfect neutral STAB coverage, powerful STAB attacks, resists SR, and has STAB priority.
• Ground/Flying: 2 useful immunities, great neutral STAB coverage.
• Ground/Ghost: 3 useful immunities, resists SR, and has STAB priority.

 

[nyttyn]

You people are going to drive me to madness some day I swear.

Alright, right now I do not support any particular type, but I want to remind people of a few Dos and Do Nots:

Do Not:

Blindly Support STAB

At +6, CAP6 is going to have absolutely zero issues with power. STAB is going to be nearly completely pointless, and should not be considered as a attraction point for any type.

Support Normal Type

Support Normal Type

Support Normal Type

Support Normal Type

I said that four times and I still don't think it is enough. Normal is an absolutely awful, awful, awful idea - it provides a non-relevant immunity, only offers STAB on a move that will gain almost no kills with STAB at +6 it wouldn't get without STAB, and shackles CAP6 with a weakness to a really common attacking type (Fighting).

Do:

Consider Relevant Resistances

Consider the following: A type that, hypothetically, resists Dragon and Water vs one that resists Poison, Bug, Steel, Grass, and Normal. Sure, the second one resists five types vs only two types, but almost everyone would argue the first typing is better - Water and Dragon are far more relevant to have as resists in this metagame. Don't get blinded by the # of resists a particular typing has, but instead consider: how many of them are relevant to current OU?

Remember Stats are Malleable - Typing Is Not

We can twiddle with the exact numbers we get from our stats all we want, and thus have more or less damage correspondingly - but we cannot change the effects of typing. Every typing has an absolutely set in stone list of resistances and weaknesses, and we cannot change that, even if we can chose what type CAP6 is. We cannot custom-fine tune the resistances or weaknesses we gain from our type, but we CAN custom-fine tune move damage, and remembering that will go a long way towards making a decision of the best type for CAP6.


I would also like to touch on Explosion - while 250 BP and +6 seems appealing, remember that CAP6 is going to have trouble getting the coverage it needs from only 3 move slots - it does not have the move slot to waste for a suicide move, and as such Explosion shouldn't be considered relevant. Also considering the move in the first place is kind of poll jumpy =/

 

[Ignus]

I'd like to suggest something not elaborated on insofar- Steel typing, while I supported it in my other post, is only a means to an end. We don't have to be a steel type in order to set up. Ghost is just as viable an alternative due to it's ability to handle almost all common priority moves. Being terrified of CAP becoming a wall is equally unhelpful. We need to be tanky based on your typing, not based on our stats. Steel and Ghost both do that, albeit in different ways. That's why they're being so commonly suggested. In fact, with such ridiculously good typings such as Steel Ghost, having bulk is almost completely useless to the concept. We suddenly resist everything we need to. If we run into another typing that can do this, I will wholeheartedly support it. I'm sick of everything being made of metal anyhow.

However, Steel-Ghost has a major drawback: It's offensive move pool. Fortunately, this is easily covered! We have +6 attack already, making STAB largely overkill. The only time it isn't overkill is when using a priority move. The only time you would use a priority move is if you were either about to be revenge killed or if you were suddenly fighting something you shouldn't be! I can't stress it enough: Belly Drum is a mid-late game move. Using it too early will leave an unsatisfactory mark on your personal record, and probably a dead or useless CAPmon! So, let's sober up and realize that we're not trying to sweep and 6-0 our opponent. It's okay to not have good offensive STABs. We loose very little for it. In fact, I would go as far as suggesting that if we decide to go with Steel-Ghost to not worry about giving the Mon many choices for Offensive STAB. It would be OK not to have extremely strong priority because our typing would stop us from losing to revenge killers anyhow. Bullet punch is relatively useless if we have something like Shadow Sneak. Shadow Claw is pretty pointless with coverage moves being available and more useful. With +6 attack, often it won't make a difference anyhow. We just have to set up and be as useful as possible before the Short-Winded nature of Belly Drum catches up with us. So, lets be defensive with our typing and not worry about having strong offensive STABs. We will make up for it with +6 attack and the ability to get an attack of afterward, period.

 

[Deck Knight]

I think people are vastly overestimating the leeway we have on Attack to not turn CAP6 into either a Choice Band abuser or a defensive juggernaut. Kitsunoh alone should be enough of a warning that even mediocre defenses on a Ghost/Steel Pokemon make that Pokemon remarkably resilient. Once you break over 100 Attack you start becoming a viable candidate for a CB set, and suffice it to say with Ghost/Steel typing you'll have plenty of opportunities to switch in with that Type Defense.

I'm going to disagree strongly with nyttyn that "stats are malleable." The singular stat that is going to determine whether our CAP is best suited as a Belly Drummer or a defensive-typed CBer is Attack. Attack has a clear upper limit on the actual value of the stat for most types we might select. The only useful argument for Poison/Steel is that the STAB is so horrible it might justify a much higher Attack stat, but at that point you have to severely limit coverage to again avoid the problem of just running a CBer with a defensive type that lets it switch in easily.

I'm going to go a little bit further into why STAB is important with the rest of this post, but suffice it to say "STAB is irrelevant to Belly Drum" is a terrible argument. A Belly Drum Pokemon is a sweeper - a sweeper predicated on all or nothing. There is no such thing as overkill when the strategy itself is premised on all or nothing.

Here's what I think the criteria should be for choosing CAP6's type to make it maximize its allure as a Belly Drummer:

1. One STAB with suitable neutral or better coverage and few 4x resists or immunities.
Examples: Normal (14), Dragon(16), Ghost (14), Rock (14), Water (14),

Belly Drum effectively makes your neutral attacks 4x effective on your target. The more types you can hit this way, the more effective you will be. Having both of your STABS resisted by 3 or 4 types each, with few relevant Super-Effective targets means you're more likely to use the Pokemon defensively because their STAB attacks are useless together. The lesson of Electivire is that seeing "It's super-effective!" does not mean you are scoring OHKOs. What we should keep in mind here is that "+6 Attack" also does not mean you are scoring OHKOs. After Belly Drum, resisted STAB has a damage increase factor of x3. Resisted un-STAB has a damage increase factor of 2. Life Orb E-Vire's un-STAB super-effective attacks had a damage increase factor of 2.6, and Electivire, again, has more Atk than would be reasonable for CAP 6 (123).

2.At least one STAB with priority.
Examples: Self-Explanatory

Let's face it, we already have a Pokemon that gives you a perfect encapsulation of why you need STAB on your priority move. Hariyama has 120 Base Attack (far more than is reasonable for CAP 6), Belly Drum, and Bullet Punch. It's also probably bulkier than CAP6 will be to boot. But Belly Drum is an awful set because 40 Base Power * 4 = 160 Base Power. If you take a look at Scizor, it's Technician-boosted CB STAB priority is 40 * 3.375, or 135 Base Power - just remember that Scizor has 130 Base Attack to work with, which again is much, much higher than would be reasonable for CAP 6. +2 SD Scizor with Life Orb has a Bullet Punch increase factor of 5.85, meaning it's Bullet Punch has an effective Base Power of 234. In short, the only thing STAB really does for our priority move is make it adequate. CAP6 Does not have the luxury of running Life Orb, but might be able to run Expert Belt. Expert Belt is really only helpful to Aqua Jet, Ice Shard, and Mach Punch - most of the other priority attacks just don't hit enough relevant Pokemon super-effectively. Boosting Plates / Items are type neutral. I should note Normal benefits here and Dark to an extent because their STAB priority is already "super-effective" by virtue of the increase in its Base Power.

3. One STAB that can cover the holes its offensive STAB neutrality leaves while offering defensive advantages.
Examples:
Steel / Water for Normal,
Water / Fighting / Steel for Dragon,
Electric / Fighting / Water for Ghost,
Water / Fighting for Rock,
Dragon / Ghost for Water, etc.

These types are designed to synergize with the neutral-hitting "offensive" STAB so that if CAP6 runs both STAB moves, it can hit a decent number of Pokemon with either STAB, but be specifically effective in concert with the other STAB. Either STAB can have the priority, but one of them must have it. Again, ignoring STAB is done at CAP 6's peril because CAP6 cannot run Choice Items or Life Orb and be an effective Belly Drummer except via using Sheer Force or Magic Guard to negate recoil, two abilities I think we should not even consider regardless of how appealing they might be - our priority will still activate Life Orb, even if the main STAB and coverage will not (Except for MGuard, but really, we learned the MGuard +mediocre offensive stats + coverage = monstrosity lesson a long time ago.)

Poison/Steel simply can't fit these three criteria. Neither STAB qualifies as an effective offensive STAB, and the secondary STAB doesn't cover holes so much as exacerbate them.

Ghost/Steel does better, but runs the risk of being underpowered because it doesn't hit much that is relevant for super-effective damage, and also because the type itself is more effectively used as a defensive Pokemon. There would need to be some serious justification for it to give away 50% of its health instead of just switching in and attempting to stall or status. Even if we shoehorn it into an offensive role, anything that looks similar to Kitsunoh is just going to replicate it, and Kit's 80/85/80 is not "bulky" by any stretch of the imaginaton. I bring Kit up not because it exists, but because stat-wise it will have a similar spread to CAP 6 - it focuses on physical attacks, has some modicum of bulk, and uses its type defense to switch in.

Normal and Water have the advantage of built-in criteria 2. Rock and Dragon can have backup types like Water or Fighting (and Steel for Dragon to some extent) that will not only give them some defensive ability but will also let them achieve criteria 2. There are other combinations that are somewhat less effective like Rock / Ghost (questionable defense) or Dragon / Electric (No priority) that would be viable, but without some semblance of all three, there is little reason to make CAP6 "Get in Mai Bellah Drum" CAP.

 

[Stratos]

I think people are vastly overestimating the leeway we have on Attack to not turn CAP6 into either a Choice Band abuser or a defensive juggernaut. Kitsunoh alone should be enough of a warning that even mediocre defenses on a Ghost/Steel Pokemon make that Pokemon remarkably resilient. Once you break over 100 Attack you start becoming a viable candidate for a CB set, and suffice it to say with Ghost/Steel typing you'll have plenty of opportunities to switch in with that Type Defense.

As Kitsunoh shows us, a Ghost/Steel type that outspeeds almost the whole metagame, has Trick and U-turn, and literally unobtainably high BAP ghost moves is a strong candidate for a CB set. Just because you share a typing doesn't mean you're the same pokemon; that'd be like saying forretress is a strong candidate for a CB set because scizor is.

 

[orkid]

Deck Night's post was really helpful for me and I absolutely agree with his assertion that defensive typings like steel/poison are not the way to go. Let me take Alexwolf's post in defense of Normal/Ghost as an example, where he says he wants to " making the CAP some sort of anti-sweeper sweeper Pokemon" Defensive pivots with sweeping potential exist, (Land-t, gliscor, dragonite in some sense, gyrados). But while they all have the ability to stop set-up sweepers and to set-up and sweep themsevlves, none of them will be willing to lose 50% of their HP to sweep - think abt it - if you're using a pokemon had to counter or check certain threats, why would use bellydrum to sweep? Defenisve pivots hate losing HP to stealth rock, why would they lose 50% of their HP ever? If you use bellydrum you would basically be destroying your team's counter/check to your opponent's sweeper. A defensively typed pokemon that wants to use bellydrum is an awful position - to make it really worthwhile you have to remove its checks/counters AND you have to remove what it checks/counters - otherwise you're better of using it as a def pivot to support your other sweepers. To me that means that good defensive typings with bad offensive stabs are not going to have bellydrum as the pref set. IMHO the best defensively good typing to use, if we go that route is Ghost/Steel. I'm kinda torn on it since it has so many good qualities, I just worry it will be used defensively...

So I am going to keep plugging dragon/fighting as a great stab combo that has enough weaknesses to be checkable, enough resists to set up, a stab priority that is useful but has immunities, so you can't just hit mach punch over and over and win. It also doesn't interact with weather and resists volt/turn and stealth-rock. I am actually starting to think it is the best stab combo for this CAP.

My biggest issue with dragon/fighting is I agree with dougjustdoug's point that it would be great to have the pokemon use stabs that the metagame isn't already super prepared for. EDIT: But in light of doug's post bellow I'm less worried abt that, and I also think the unique stab combo would help give a reason to use the pokemon in OU even though there are so many other good dragons.

In light of all that I'm less into rock, its just too bad defensively. I keep trying to think of a way to make Rock work. Rock/Water, Rock/Fight, Rock/Ghost all have priority, but they also all have lots of problems. Rock/Flying has a nifty immunity, but also terrible weaknesses, but I would love someone to find a way to make Rock work... Think about it, its like having an OU anti-Archeops! We could give it an ability the is the opposite of defeatist and raises its attack and sp attack when it loses 50% of its HP! (TOTALLY KIDDING)

 

[gsumbreon]

There's 2 things that I want to bring up with typing which are important and completely overlooked. The first is dealing with water. I actually think that this should be the single most important trait that this Pokemon has. With how rampant choice-locked water moves are with Keldo, Politoed, and Latios, to name a few, being able to switch in to these big threats will be a much more reliable way to set up. The second big point I want to bring up is getting burned. Poison can be worked around, burn cannot. For something that has a focus of Belly Drum to sweep, it will not like getting burned, as that will cripple it entirely, unless the team has a dedicated cleric. For that reason, I feel like Fire should be one of its types, and the other typing picked to mitigate its SR weakness.

I know that we already have Mollusk as the whole "Fire type that's immune to water attacks" already, but there's a lot of merit to that typing, and I think that should be explored. For secondary typings to compliment fire, there's Steel, Fighting, and Ground.

Fighting:
Pros:
-STAB Mach Punch deals with a lot of threats
-STAB Drain Punch greatly improves survivability
Cons:
-Unless it gets Extremespeed, odds are it'll have no answer to Dragonite and Salamence
-Overdone as a starter typing

Ground:
Pros:
-Immune to Thunderwave
-Immune to Volt Switch
Cons:
-x4 Weak to water, unless an ability mitigates that

Steel:
Pros:
-Immune to Poison
-Adds a Dragon resistance
Cons:
-Makes CAP6 x4 weak to Ground, which is common
-Weak to Mach Punch, Vacuum Wave

So shoot me now, but as long as the water weakness can be dealt with in the ability phase, I'm gonna suggest Fire/Fighting as its typing.

 

[DougJustDoug]

Several people have asked me here and on #cap why I didn't include Dragon along with Steel and Water in my earlier post about typings the metagame is heavily prepared to handle. I was a little on the fence with Dragon. Obviously the OU metagame is dominated with many amazing Dragons, and if you don't account for Dragons when teambuilding, you are going to have a hard time winning. So yeah, the OU metagame is very "prepared" for Dragon-typed pokemon, if you define the word "prepared" to mean "I expect to see it".

But, I tend to think Dragon is pretty much a "broken type", because there is very little you can really do to actually handle it. Yes, you can put a bunch of Steels on your team, since it is the only type that resists Dragon (and most successful teams do exactly that). But Dragon has huge BP moves on both the Physical and Special sides, and all of the OU Dragons are legends or pseudo-legends and they typically have huge movepools, and all the Dragons have great coverage moves for Steels. It's hard to say that having Steels on your team really allows you to "handle Dragons" defensively. Using Steels is the best you can do, so you do it. But because the typing is so offensively amazing and the pokemon that have the typing are so amazing, you are just enduring the onslaught, as opposed to dealing with the threat.

On top of that Dragon has a ton of resistances and is only weak to itself (which means it is somewhat of a coin-flip to use Dragon moves to threaten Dragons in most cases) and Ice -- and Ice is such a horrendous defensive typing that almost no actual Ice-type pokemon can survive in OU, which means Ice-type attacks are typically launched without STAB, thus making it much less threatening for the Dragon-types overall. Dragon typing is not necessarily "broken" defensively, like it is offensively. But it is a very good defensive type too.

So my feeling is that the OU metagame has done its best to deal with Dragons, because Dragons are everywhere. But because the typing itself is kinda broken, I don't think the metagame can ever really be "completely prepared for Dragons". On the offensive side, OU has prepared for Dragons, but on the defensive side it's somewhat of a hopeless cause, IMO. Which is why I don't put Dragon in the same league with Steel and Water in terms of metagame preparedness.

Because defensive Steels are everywhere, all teams have tons of moves to kill Steels. And because the most overused pokemon in the game (Scizor) has such a devastating Bullet Punch, all teams must prepare specifically for handling hard-hitting Steel moves. So offensively and defensively, the metagame is very prepared for Steel. Same goes for Water. Because Rain is such a dominant playstyle, all teams are ready to hit Water types supereffective and take them out. And because the OU meta is saturated (no pun intended) with big Rain-boosted water moves, everyone is packing pokemon that are defensively designed specifically to take those hits. So once again, we have a metagame that is truly prepared for Water in terms of offense and defense.

Like I said at the top of this post, I was debating whether I should include Dragon along with Steel and Water. And no doubt we have a lot of Dragons in OU already. But because of the offensive "brokenness" of Dragon, and the fact that it is a very good defensive type without screaming "I'm a wall type" -- I think that may be a very good reason for us to consider Dragon for CAP6. And since I don't think the metagame can ever truly handle Dragon-typing, it didn't fit the criteria I was using for Steel and Water in my earlier post.

 

[Korski]

The only useful argument for Poison/Steel is that the STAB is so horrible it might justify a much higher Attack stat, but at that point you have to severely limit coverage to again avoid the problem of just running a CBer with a defensive type that lets it switch in easily.

I've been running calcs with a neutral nature, no item, and 80-90 base Atk (far below what any Choice Band user would consider adequate, especially one with crappy STABs), and I've come up with staggeringly few actual defensive checks to it at +6. Outside of heavily defensively EV'd Water-types like Politoed, Tentacruel, and Jellicent that manage to only be 2HKO'd by Meteor Mash (offensive Politoed, fast/SubToxic Tentacruel, and Calm Jellicent won't cut it), or Rotom-W/Magnezone/Heatran who double-resist Steel (absent any sort of coverage), or the Skarmory and Forretresses of the world that have nothing to hit CAP with (both standard and SpD Ferrothorn are 2HKO'd from full health by Meteor Mash + SR, while Skarm/Forry aren't too far behind), there isn't much that can statistically stand up to just these STAB attacks. Even bulky DD Gyarados can't survive +5 Meteor Mash through Stealth Rock. Without Belly Drum, CAP wouldn't be able to do any of this. And I would wager CAP will end up with some attacks that aren't Meteor Mash by the end of this project, or moves like Substitute, which will most likely limit the group of checks even further; I won't get into the movepool stage early, but a lot of these defensive checks have a lot of weaknesses in common. On the other side of the coin, many of these Pokes will just as "easily" handle Normal/Steel or Ghost/Steel or Dragon/Steel or Normal/Ghost all the same, while all those types have different groups of checks that don't apply to Poison/Steel etc. etc.

Here's what I think the criteria should be for choosing CAP6's type to make it maximize its allure as a Belly Drummer:
1. One STAB with suitable neutral or better coverage and few 4x resists or immunities.

This is a noble goal, but I'm pretty sure this argument continues to underestimate its primary target. Poison and Steel both hit 27/50 OU Pokemon for neutral or better damage, so they really are very interchangeable, however low on relevance to OU they are. It wouldn't be beyond the realm of possibility to run Poison STAB for surprise +6 KOs, but Steel is probably the safer bet with its three 4x resists and zero immunities. 27 isn't zero, however, and there are a couple coverage options that could be used with one STAB or the other that would raise that number to the mid-40s (e.g. with 44-46/50 OUmons hit at-least-neutrally, Fighting and Ground both work well with either STAB, Water and Fire work well with Poison, Electric works well with Steel). Then you have to add in the frailer Pokemon like Thundurus-T and Starmie, who lack the statistical bulk to survive even resisted STAB attacks from +6, and you're already nearly all the way to 50 with just 2 attacking moves. Any fourth slot can be used to expand to universal coverage or for some sort of support/priority move. I completely agree that neutral coverage via one or both STABs is desirable, but I don't believe this is a quality that evades Poison/Steel in the slightest, not when it can cover 92-96% of OU in 2 moves (with a large number, including the remaining 4-8%, requiring defensive EVs and good health to survive). Factoring in normal battle conditions and the fairly logical idea that CAP won't just be Belly Drumming its first turn on the field, this point cannot apply any less to Poison/Steel than to any other typing. And further still, STAB neutrality may not be as paramount to this CAP's success as this list of criteria supposes, as I've discovered and shown through various hypothetical damage calcs. In fact, Poison/Steel needs Belly Drum more than most of the other typings proposed, as at +0 the lack of neutral coverage compared to other types becomes much more apparent.

2.At least one STAB with priority.

Bullet Punch, but we already knew that, and we probably just have different opinions on how crucial priority will be on any given set. Moving on.

3. One STAB that can cover the holes its offensive STAB neutrality leaves while offering defensive advantages.

I may have underestimated the combination of Poison/Steel in my first post in this thread. Looking at it again, a full 38 OUmons take full-powered STAB attacks from this typing, and if you want to exclude bottom-OU Pokes like Gastrodon, Lucario, Magnezone, and Metagross, you're looking at around 84% of the tier hit with dual-STABs alone. This includes massive damage (in most cases OHKOs) to Water-types that would otherwise soak up CAP's Steel STAB (excluding Jellicent and Tentacruel), which leaves other Steel types as the primary checks (and we all know what coverage they can succumb to). The defensive advantages of the typing should be obvious.

Poison/Steel simply can't fit these three criteria. Neither STAB qualifies as an effective offensive STAB, and the secondary STAB doesn't cover holes so much as exacerbate them.

I guess I just plain disagree here. +6 Steel STAB is very effective, Steel gives priority Bullet Punch (and +6 anything can use Extremespeed I bet), Poison STAB covers most Water-types in the tier that Steel struggles with, and coverage options cover what's left (if you don't feel like slightly weakening the things that resist the STABs).

Did I break my promise regarding long posts?

 

[inanimate blob]

Sorry if it has been mentioned before but...how about Normal/Dragon?

As DougJustDoug just explained, Dragon is a very solid defensive typing. With proper bulk, it could potentially come in on certain Pokemon and be able to threaten them out. There are also some solid Dragon attacks that CAP6 could use.

Another big factor from Normal typing is the presence of STAB on Extremespeed. Already a +2 priority attack with 80 BP, having STAB on it could help CAP6 become an absolute powerhouse after a Belly Drum. While not offering many defensive advantages, the Normal typing helps to prevent against Ghost-type attacks (which aren't common), but with proper ability/stats/movepool, a Dragon/Normal type could function well as a boosting attacker.

 

[capefeather]

How many site analyses read "...or run X so you aren't walled by Heatran"?

Just a reminder that a huge part of that is because Heatran has Flash Fire.

I still think Ghost/Steel is a really dangerous type for the project, as I said before it has the potential to be the best spinblocker in the entire tier,

"Spinblocker" is not a specific role. It's one aspect of a Ghost-type Pokemon, and doesn't completely define its role. The two OU Ghost-types couldn't be more different.

Whether or not we want priority, I don't think that having STAB on a 40 BP priority is necessarily such a big deal. We have 80 BP STAB moves in Extremespeed and Sucker Punch that can out-damage those, anyway, so unless you are thinking of hitting certain crucial targets, STAB on 40 BP priority isn't that much of a selling point for a type while the 80 BP moves remain on the table.

Just quoting this because it's a great counterargument to the supposed importance giving CAP 6 STAB priority. Now, it's true that this argument doesn't apply to ExtremeSpeed itself. Nonetheless, ExtremeSpeed is already an 80 base power move. If people want to argue for the importance of STAB, they should point out more than just "STAB priority", which is the whole point of most of the arguments against Normal, for example. Don't just tack Normal on because of ExtremeSpeed.

Kitsunoh alone should be enough of a warning that even mediocre defenses on a Ghost/Steel Pokemon make that Pokemon remarkably resilient.

I'm not sure of how relevant this is as a negative. Some have even talked about Ghost / Steel potentially being a wall. Unfortunately, a Pokemon needs specific capabilities other than bulk to be an effective wall. Porygon2 is one of the bulkiest Pokemon in the game, and it's not a very effective wall. It's a utility counter at best. In fact, in UU, it often employs an offensive set.

 

[Solstice]

Something that has been concerning me with the typing floating around is whether or not we want to force switches with CAP 6. There was a lot of discussion about this in the concept assessment and I know feel like it has been largely forgotten. While people are constantly considering the benefits of different offensive typings post-Belly Drum, we still need to think about how we are going to achieve that Belly Drum in the first place. While I am cognisant of the dangerous possibility that a typing will over-compensate for CAP 6 and mean that they fill the role of a Choice user better than that of a Belly Drum user, if they cannot generate the conditions in which to use the move then it will not be used. I feel like it is necessary to pick an offensive STAB that can still force switches without Belly Drum. Now a lot of people will respond by saying that this is exactly what will make the concept veer away from Belly Drum but I don't believe this to be the truth with the proper preparation and choice of moves and stats. If it can force switches with an offensive special move but is walled without Belly Drum we're still going in the right direction, or a similar situation.

Deck Knight's 3 criteria are an excellent foundation for this concept simply because they underline exactly why we need a type that can provide offensive pressure, because +6 doesn't just guarantee any success after Belly Drum and certainly not before. This is why I think Poison/Steel is not a strong option for this concept. We need to remember that it is difficult to create a balanced Pokemon but something usable in OU in a different role is a bigger success than a Pokemon that cannot function in OU. I feel like a safe option is not possible for this concept because it is not a safe concept to use, Belly Drum is the definition of immediate offensive risk/reward pressure, and picking something to try and limit that, making it less risky, is less rewarding. Better to overshoot and pick a strong defensive and offensive type than try to nerf this from the start.

I believe that Steel/Dragon is a typing that needs to be considered due to the simple fact that it is very strong offensively and defensively, and that it may have the capabilities necessary to force switches and get off Belly Drums. It resists Volt Switch, U-Turn, Bullet Punch, Extremespeed, and has an overall impressive list of resistances. And Dragon is a strong offensive typing, accompanied by STAB Bullet Punch for post-Belly Drum.

 

[jas61292]

I know Korski responded to Deck Knights criteria already on how Poison steel fits, and he covered a lot of what I want to say, but I would like to go over it myself because I honestly think that, beyond them not applying to said typing as he suggested, they are just plain wrong for what we want in about every way.

1. One STAB with suitable neutral or better coverage and few 4x resists or immunities.

As I have said before, this is completely irrelevant for this project. We want to be good, not at +0, but at +6. At +6, coverage matters. STABs do not. Sure, it is nice to have a STAB boost on a spammable attack, but it is much more important that you simply have an attack. With the exception of a wall, everything is dying to a +6 neutral hitting move, STAB or not. What matters when it comes to types is the defensive side of things, not the offensive side, at least when it comes to making the type good. On the other hand though, I will go even further and say that rather than the above statement being false, it is in fact the opposite of what we want. Again, at +6 coverage is all that matters, but at +0, that is not the case. We want to make our Pokemon go for the +6, so making it have good STABs, which is something more useful at +0 than +6, is counterintuitive.

2.At least one STAB with priority.

While I went over this completely in Concept Assessment 2, let me just briefly restate it. Priority BD has been done before. It has failed. This is not to say that priority BD is destined to fail, but it is to say that there is little to learn in that department. Yes, a better Pokemon that goes that route would be better, but that doesn't teach us anything. Simply trying to build a better Linoone is not a direction we want this project to take.

With that said, I do not think priority is an evil we should avoid, but it is completely not necessary. And, as such, having STAB on a priority move is even completely an irrelevant consideration. Could it be nice? Maybe. But we have not, and frankly should not be making priority a central focus of this concept, and as such, there is no reason to have one as a STAB. And to go even further, as has been stated multiple times in this thread already, if we want a priority move with X power, we have stats and abilities to get it there. Choosing a typing based on an assumption of an unneeded element later in the process will just cause us to ignore what is actually important in types.

Of course, I have no problem having STAB on a priority, but it should not even be a real consideration here. Certainly not a top 3 concern.

3. One STAB that can cover the holes its offensive STAB neutrality leaves while offering defensive advantages.

I have already referenced this a few times already, but let me repeat it one more time: The offensive ability of our typing is practically irrelevant compared to the defensive ability. If anything, there only thing we should be caring about on the offensive side is that it is NOT good. "Better" may be better when just playing the game, but when trying to make a Pokemon fit a role, simply choosing a type because it is "better" at something is not always the right path. In this case we should be caring about resistances, without making ourselves too good so as to make it too easy to set up. If we happen to have a decent offensive type, whatever. But that should definitely be a secondary concern to how the type preforms defensively. You can always change how you function on the offensive with coverage moves. You can never change your weaknesses and resistances.

 

[ProfPuppyPunter]

I still think we might want to look at this differently. CAP 6 NEEDS BULK. All in all, resistances are key here, and also are not enough to turn something into a wall. STABs also don't exactly come into play at +6, where it can all come down to movepool. But of course, +6 is going to be for naught if CAP 6 does not have the ability to get there.