CAP 17 CAP 6 - Part 2 - Typing Discussion

[awsmminer3]

I think that Dragon/Fighting is a completely redundant typing for CAP6. For one thing, those 2 types are the most powerful in OU (bar Water in rain), eliminating the necessity of Belly Drum. On top of that, when you combine them you find that the only resist of both is Kitsunoh, who can be killed by EMBER and SUCKER PUNCH of all things. PLEASE, do not make CAP6 Dragon/Fighting type.

 

[ginganinja]

Going through a really quick run through of some of the more popular types that I wanna post about...

Dragon / Fighting: I think a type such as this, is both good and bad. On the plus side, Dragon / Fighting hits pretty much everything neutrally. It basically has perfect coverage in OU, which automatically makes handling it really difficult when its just going to run Belly Drum + Dragon Claw + Mach Punch + Fighting STAB. The perfect coverage means bugger all actually walls this CAP, which isn't comforting when its Priority move really hammers the shit out of Keldeo. I won't post calculations since we don't have a rough idea as to what base attack its got, but from playing around with the numbers, you really are doing truckloads, with Priority that is one of the best typings in the game. Heck, your standard fighting resists are risky as hell to bring in since Dragon STAB destroys the shit out of Dragonite, Lati@ and Salamence, and Starmie loses roughly 50% of its health from +0 Dragon Claw (obv depending on base attack) on the switch, which puts it smack bang in the middle of your KO range from +6 Mach Punch if you can set up latter. Some of this stuff varies depending on its base attack, but the point being there isn't really a wall that can handle CAP 6, and many revenge killers cannot switch in either due to its perfect neutral coverage.

Poison / Steel: O.k, this has a real positive in that Poison and Steel gets resisted by a LOT which means CAP 6 is very checkable. The downside is that Fire STAB is very common (on say Dragonite), Fighting STAB still hits you neutrally, Water STAB hits you neutrally (and is boosted under rain), Ground STAB from Landorus-T, Hippowdon, Garchomp, Gliscor, and Gastrodon still hits you hard so you cannot set up on that and so on. Like, sure, looking at the OU list, its possible to find some pokemon that you can set up on, its just that you very likely need some excellent bulk (via stats) and potentially something like Levitate to actually be viable. Its just that when you cannot set up on the majority of OU, AND are hard walled by a fair amount of OU at +6 with your STABs, I just wonder how effective of a belly drummer you really are.

Ghost / Water: O.k this typing has been brought up on IRC, and I really really like it, provided that it doesn't get Aqua Jet as a priority move. Technically, I guess I am "poll jumping" but I really really don't want this thing getting Aqua Jet, because under Rain you are just far 2 strong. Its pretty much the only water typing I support, because it gives us the option of a different priority (aka Shadow Sneak) and thus doesn't lock us into Aqua Jet, which could easily happen if we went with Water / Dragon. Ghost / Water gives us resistances to Fighting and Water, both exceptionally common moves to throw around, and are often choiced. In addition, you resist priority moves which makes you a "safe" typing, provided its still revengeful I guess by scarfers. It still "does other stuff" in that it can pseudo spin block without us having to give it moves which make it a spinblocker. It discourages shit like Tentacruel, (maybe Starmie without Thunder) and Forry casually spinning least they give us a free switch + Belly Drum, actually has solid set up potential, and so on. Its downsides is that any calculations made are skewed heavily by the possibility of Drizzle, although the flipside is that its STAB is killed by Sun.

 

[Torterragatr]

There's not much that hasn't already been talked about, but I'm opposing Water / Dragon, or any typing that contains Water or Dragon for that matter. Dragon is extremely good as a type both offensively and defensively, and accompanied by a STAB rain-boosted Waterfall, it's going to 2HKO "checks" like Ferrothorn. Furthermore, Aqua Jet in the rain is going to be ridiculous (calcs assume that Movemon will have 80 base Attack):

+6 252 Atk Water Gem Movemon Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Salamence in rain: 255-301 (77.03 - 90.93%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+6 252 Atk Water Gem Movemon Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios in rain: 255-301 (84.71 - 100%) -- 81.25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+6 252 Atk Water Gem Movemon Aqua Jet vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Rotom-W in rain: 200-236 (82.64 - 97.52%) -- 68.75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Finally, the metagame is completely and utterly saturated with these two types. Seeing as Malaconda had a ton to do with weather it would be interesting to have the next CAP function just as well in any weather condition.

Since not many people have talked about Steel / Flying, I will. Resistances to Bug, etc etc etc are amazing and Flying has good offensive presence. However, there's one flaw and that's vulnerability to Volt Switch. This will be a huge thorn in CAP's side, because a Volt Switcher can do massive damage to it and switch out when it cuts its HP in half, either keeping it from setting up, KOing it, or putting it in priority move kill range. Those great resistances and a Spikes immunity could make up for those traits though.

 

[Bughouse]

Assuming Water Gem in calculations is rather unfair when most CAP 6 will need to be running Lum or Sitrus to safely set up.

Like seriously. Be smart. While Water Gem would certainly be viable it's hardly the main item.

Any Dragon weak to other Dragons (i.e. slower and not Dragon/Steel) is going to be easily checked. The fears of Dragon types are overblown.

 

[alexwolf]

Here is the list of Pokemon from OU that a Steel / Flying and a Steel / Ghost Pokemon could easily force or take a hit for less than 50% damage in order to use Belly Drum (assuming one or more of these Pokemon's most common sets and no choiced moves):

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- Steel / Flying: Scizor, Ferrothorn, Dragonite (in rain), Garchomp (in rain), Salamence (in rain), Gliscor, Landorus-T, Celebi, Donphan, Blissey, Haxorus, Forretress, Latias, Metagross, Hippowdon (without Whirlwind obviously). Total of 15 OU Pokemon (3 conditional)

- Steel / Ghost: Scizor, Ferrothorn, Breloom (Sleep Clause active), Terrakion, Celebi, Conkeldurr, Toxicroak, Lucario, Blissey, Forretress, Jirachi, Latias. Total of 12 OU Pokemon (1 conditional)

As we can see both types get many setup opportunities against common OU Pokemon but the difference is that the first typing has an easier type against Ground types while the second against Fighting types. Each typing can setup on vicious and dangerous offensive threats (Garchomp, Dragonite, and Salamence in Steel / Flying poke's case and Breloom, Terrakion, and Lucario in Steel / Ghost type's case) and each typing has its own unique set of pros. Steel / Ghost resists SR, is neutral to Volt Switch (which however doesn't matter so much as most users of Volt Switch can hurt a Steel / Ghost for upwards of 50% damage), can spinblock, and is immune to Mach Punch and Extremespeed. Steel / Flying is immune to Spikes, has a better offensive STAB, and cannot be trapped by Dugtrio.

Also, when talking about neutral offensive coverage, let's see how many Pokemon in OU resist those two type combos:

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Steel / Flying: Heatran, Jirachi, Jolteon, Magnezone, Metagross, Rotom-W, Skarmory, Thundurus-T (8)
Steel / Ghost: Ferrothorn, Forretress, Heatran, Lucario, Magnezone, Scizor, Skarmory (7)

If out of this list we exclude frail offensive Pokemon that can be OHKOed by resisted STABs at +6 anyway here is what remains:

Steel / Flying: Heatran, Jirachi, Magnezone, Metagross, Rotom-W, Skarmory, (6)
Steel / Ghost: Ferrothorn, Forretress, Heatran, Magnezone, Scizor, Skarmory (6)

And here is the usage of all those Pokemon combined for the last month:

Steel / Flying: Heatran (14.85%) + Jirachi (14.43%) + Magnezone (6.34%) + Metagross (5.23%) + Rotom-W (11.74%) + Skarmory (9.70%) = 62.29%
Steel / Ghost: Ferrothorn (19.79%) + Forretress (10.08%) + Heatran (14.85%) + Magnezone (6.34%) + Scizor (21.85%) + Skarmory (9.70%) = 82.61%

We see that they have exactly the same list of Pokemon that resist them (it could be argued that Steel / Flying has only 5 really common resistors as Metagross is pretty rare while the Pokemon that resist Steel / Ghost are all very common). However, considering the superior BP of the physical Flying moves in comparison to Ghost-type moves we can conclude that the first typing has the edge when it comes to dealing with OU threats with just its STABs.

Lastly, let's see which of the two type combos hits the most Pokemon in OU for super effective damage, to see which combo offers the best offensive presence before we use Belly Drum:

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Steel / Flying: Breloom, Celebi, Conkeldurr, Infernape, Keldeo, Kyurem-B, Mamoswine, Terrakion, Toxicroak, Tyranitar, Venusaur, Volcarona (12)
Steel / Ghost: Celebi, Espeon, Gengar, Jellicent, Kyurem-B, Mamoswine, Latias, Latios, Starmie, Reuniclus, Terrakion, Tyranitar (12)

And here is the usage of all those Pokemon combined for the last month:

Steel / Flying: Breloom (13.02%) + Celebi (8.31%) + Conkeldurr (6.71%) + Infernape (8.16%) + Keldeo (10.96%) + Kyurem-B (5.91%) + Mamoswine (7.99%) + Terrakion (9.57%) + Toxicroak (6.14%) + Tyranitar (13.84%) + Venusaur (6.59%) + Volcarona (10.17%) = 107.37%
Steel / Ghost: Celebi (8.31%) + Espeon (8.24%) + Gengar (10.96%) + Jellicent (8.20%) + Kyurem-B (5.91%) + Mamoswine (7.99%) + Latias (6.44%) + Latios (14.66%) + Starmie (11.94%) + Reuniclus (3.63%) + Terrakion (9.57%) + Tyranitar (13.84%) = 109.69%

All in all, both types seem pretty equal in terms of how good defensive types are and how good offensive presence they present. However, i am slightly in favor of Steel / Flying for three reasons. The first is that Steel / Flying can still be stopped by priority even though it resists it, meaning it is not uncheckable once it gets going. The second is that Flying type has better physical STAB moves which means more immediate power at +0 which means it will force more switches and give us more chances to use Belly Drum. Finally, by choosing the Flying / Steel type combo we avoid making the CAP a spinblocker, which although not a negative at a first glance is not a positive either and doesn't have any relevance with our role as a Belly Drum user. If by making the CAP a spinblocker we reduce our choices for the CAP even by a little bit (no WoW and no good defensive stats for example to avoid making the CAP a defensive spinblocker instead of a sweeper) why not avoid those restrictions altogether?

 

[Homeslice]

I haven't been watching this extremely closely, so this may or may not have been brought up but I'm nominating Poison/Normal type.

Defensively:

• 4x Weak: Nothing
• 2x Weak: Ground, Psychic
• Neutral Damage: Everything else
• 1/2 Damage: Bug, Grass, Poison
• 1/4 Damage: Nothing
• 0 Damage: Ghost

The list is no where near impressive defensively as some other types are, but that's not the point. Only having two weaknesses that are neither 4x effective is good in its own sense anyways. Resisting U-Turn is a plus too. But like I said, Defensive isn't the point here.

The main point in this typing is that it gives CAP6 the worst two STABs in the game. You can't argue that either, Normal does super effective damage to nothing and Poison does super effective damage to a whopping one type, grass, and 3 out of 4 OU grass types actually are neutral to Poison type moves (exception being Breloom who has Spore). What does having the worst two STABs do?

It gives us an incentive to use Belly Drum to do much more damage in what we lack in type coverage.

Some Pokemon are cherished because they have such great coverage (Starmie with BoltBeam, for example) which allows them to hit everything for a reasonable amount of damage. Not a Poison/Normal type, because their STABs suck and if they want to have decent coverage they can't use their STABs, which leaves them lacking in power compared to other Pokemon. This would be our incentive to use Belly Drum, as it promotes a way to get enough power to actually do something against other Pokemon. You basically have two options: have sucky coverage with reasonable (presumably) power, or have decent-good coverage with less power overall. What can alleviate both those problems for the most part? Stat boosting. Belly Drum.

And I guess being neutral to every priority in the game except for one which we are immune to is cool too

 

[paintseagull]

Regarding the large support of steel type in this thread:

I was trying to understand why we needed a steel typing for this CAP. I asked in #cap and Korski said that he liked it for its lack of sandstorm damage, SR resist and immunity to toxic. Personally I was confused because I felt that the fighting and ground weaknesses from Steel were forcing us into mathchups such as Ghost and Flying and Poison to remove those weaknesses. And of course, that makes sense, but especially in the case of Ghost/Steel we end up with a typing which seems a bit extreme defensively. Do we really need something as good across the board as Ghost/Steel or can we get away with something a bit more balanced? Given that we have also already done this type I would love to see some alternatives considered for it and for steel type in general.

Ground type has the desirable qualities of Steel in an SR resist and SS immunity while trading the fighting and ground weaknesses for water and ice. It also gains a more useful electric immunity over poison (in terms of attack, not considering status).

Combining Ground with Ghost adds a potential priority STAB and a fighting immunity but adds a Pursuit weakness.

Combining Ground with Fighting adds a Pursuit resistance and gives a nice 1/4 resistance to Rock. This typing may be too strong offensively though.

I'd love to see some more OU-minded folks consider this and see if it could hold up or if Steel type is really needed here.

 

[alexwolf]

For what is worth, i do think that the Steel-typing is necessary, to keep our options as many as possible. After all, Steel type is by far and undoubtedly the best defensive type out there. Sure we could go with Electric / Fighting and then slap on it either Water Absorb or Levitate and get a decent number of setup chances but this means that our options will be very limited and there won't be so much to discuss, or at least not as much as we could have. With a typing such as Steel/Flying or Steel/Ghost our pool of possible abilities grows vastly. We could either give a type-immunity ability such as the ones already mentioned, a defensive/longevity ability such as Multiscale, Intimidate, or Regenerator, or anything else interesting really, thus making the ability stage much more enjoyable and varied.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I was trying to understand why we needed a steel typing for this CAP. I asked in #cap and Korski said that he liked it for its lack of sandstorm damage, SR resist and immunity to toxic. Personally I was confused because I felt that the fighting and ground weaknesses from Steel were forcing us into mathchups such as Ghost and Flying and Poison to remove those weaknesses . . .

Well it's not bad to have a pokémon that has checks. But, someone (not sure who) said this earlier, but it bears repeating so I'll say it again: If you are a belly drummer, you behave, in some respects, the same way a Shedinja does: you stay hidden in the roster, and don't come out until your counters are gone, and then if the other team doesn't have a response left for you, you absolutely steamroll them.


So, In my opinion, the best 2 possible steel typings are Steel/Fighting and Steel/Fire.
Steel/fighting is weak to fire, burns, fighting and ground type attacks, but packs a VERY strong offensive typing as well as 2 STAB priority attacks, one with excellent coverage. And before the argument comes up again: yes it's important. It lets us direct our CAP into being a Belly Drummer without giving it enough attack to just be a choice band sweeper. But, again, lets look at what this typing means as far as steel weaknesses: it lacks any 4x weaknesses and can come in on a predicted bug, poison, dark or rock attack pretty much for free. It totally shrugs off stealth rock, and if the enemy pokémon doesn't have one of the three 2x effective attacks to smack you with, chances are, you get belly drum off (especially packing a Sitrus Berry) and then you basically steamroll with your Mach Punch, especially if you gain an ability that boosts it (with bullet punch in the wings for speedy ghost, psychic, flying, bug or poison pokémon), and with both of those attacks being priority, you become very hard to stop.
Fire/Fighting works rather similarly, trading a resistance to fire and burns and the ability to come in on grass, steel and ice attacks for free for a 4x weakness to ground, a weakness to water, no longer resisting rock, and, but that token, stealth rock. Also, you lack a fire STAB priority attack . . . which can be worked around, but is, nonetheless a negative point (though we can have the second best thing with flame charge)
But even it is a good enough typing, and neither typing is ghost or flying, as you seem to think that we need.

Yes, we'll have weaknesses, but all we need to do is make sure not to try to set up against one of those things we are weak against.

 

[Stratos]

There have been some people in this thread (for example, paintseagull) who have been saying that we need to tone down the typings we're suggesting, so as to not let this CAP rampage all over ou

20:45 Pwnemon: id like to reiterate tho
20:46 Pwnemon: that setting up just bc you wall a poke isnt quite so easy as you guys think it is
20:46 Pwnemon: if i have a team thats completely obliterated by a pokemon that can set up on my terrak
20:46 Pwnemon: i'll just not send in terrak
20:46 alexwolf: it depends on the poke you face and the item you have but you have a point
20:46 Pwnemon: obviously that still gives my opponent a big advantage
20:46 jas61292: Yeah... its about being intelligent
20:47 Pwnemon: but it's not gonna be a breeze to set up belly drum
20:47 Pwnemon: no matter how many resists this thing has

So while some people are seeing alexwolf listing 12 Pokemon that a steel/ghost or steel/flying pokemon could set up on and think that's going to dominate OU, I really don't think anything smaller will have enough setup opportunities to be viable. One of those pokemon on your opponent's team is not an instant ticket to set up. Thats why i'm not keen on picking an intentionally worse defensive typing to nerf the pokemon, especially when so little is known about stats or movepool. On the other hand, I'm also not keen on picking worse defensive typings because of the fear that better ones will drive us to be a wall—as fuzznip has reiterated, lucario has a great defensive typing, but none of the tools necessary to be a wall, and is thus a swords dance sweeper. Just because we pick ghost/steel or flying/steel doesn't mean we'll be the next Skarmory

 

[Deoxymoron]

I agree with everyone who says that Steel typing is pretty much necessary, but I'd like to add that I feel like it also has to be at least neutral to fighting. With so many good fighting-types running around the tier, not to mention Mach Punch, a weakness seriously hurts our CAP's potential. For example, take Breloom, Scarf Keldeo and Terrakion. I ran some calcs, and apparently if we made our CAP nice and bulky with 100/100 defenses, and invested fully in EVs, Life Orb Breloom still always gets a 2HKO with Mach Punch (which, after Belly Drum, becomes an OHKO.) The same goes for Terrakion and Keldeo.

There are a few solutions. The most obvious is to pull a 180 and make it Steel/Ghost-type, thus making it immune to Fighting in general. This is currently my favorite option. A Steel/Ghost pokemon could have access to both STAB Bullet Punch and Shadow Sneak, and its STABs hit everything except for Steel-types neutrally. This is its greatest flaw, however, and causes it to lose some of its wallbreaking power.

Another option that people have discussed is Steel/Flying. It's true that this is great typing, but I feel like Skarmory is the best we're gonna get out of that idea. Plus, the attacking coverage is pretty lame. I also think that Steel/Bug would be interesting. Yeah, I know you're all sick of Forretress and Scizor, but having only one weakness is nice. Still, if there's one thing OU doesn't need, it's another powerful steel-type bullet punch user. All in all, Steel/Ghost seems like the best typing to me.

 

[Korski]

I think there is a lot going for Steel/Flying here. For one, it is a solid defensive typing that even comes with a significant immunity to Ground in addition to its 10 other resistances. It maintains excellent resistance to passive damage, being immune to Sandstorm, Toxic, and Spikes, and sports a neutrality to Stealth Rock, which is less than ideal but par for the course. Alexwolf posted a list of things that a reasonable stat spread with this typing could set up on, and I'd say a majority of them are things that a reasonable stat spread with this typing could actually set up on (for people clamoring to have obvious setup targets as early as the typing stage). Offensively, Flying is tied with Dragon for the most neutral-or-better hits in the tier. An impressive 41 out of 50 OUmons take unresisted damage from just this one STAB alone (I'm sure everyone remembers how much of a bother it was dodging Tornadus-T's Hurricane before it was banned, and it's this neutral coverage that's the reason). Steel doesn't offer much offensively in conjunction with Flying (only Tyranitar is covered amongst Flying resistors), which is sad, but then again there are a few coverage options like Fighting, Fire, and Water that would corral very close to the rest of the tier into a neutral coverage set in lieu of Steel, and our CAP would be sitting pretty with 2-move coverage in those cases.

Regarding STAB, Brave Bird isn't happening; it's a terrible option, considering Belly Drum, leaving Acrobatics and Drill Peck as the two available moves. Acrobatics has conditionally immense power and is the attack I personally prefer to abuse if we move forward with this typing. More importantly, it has really interesting interactions with items, and items have really interesting interactions with abilities, which translates to focus and cohesion in my eyes. Just my two cents.

For reference, Steel/Flying:

2x: Electric, Fire
1x: Fighting, Ice, Rock, Water
1/2x: Dark, Dragon, Flying, Ghost, Normal, Psychic, Steel
1/4x: Bug, Grass
0x: Ground, Poison

 

[Bughouse]

Steel/Flying is a typing I liked from the start and probably was a close second to Dragon/Water in my initial post thought process. I very much like the definitive set up opportunities it gives, as well as the good coverage Flying gives. Especially when you factor in that Lum/Sitrus play perfectly with Acrobatics. The Spikes, Sandstorm, Poison immunities are super helpful too. Coverage will need to be carefully thought out, probably more so than stats or ability, but that's ok.

I do think we'd have to neuter quite a few things about this CAP for it to properly work and not be broken, though that's the case with any Belly Drummer, I guess. Anyway, it has lots of promise. I can easily support Steel/Flying.

 

[DetroitLolcat]

I hope there's enough room on the Steel/Flying bandwagon for me!

Though I'm still a fan of Steel/Fighting and Steel/Ghost, Steel/Flying is a great typing for this thread because Flying is a great defensive type when combined with Steel because it allows CAP6 to most likely survive Mach Punches and turns Scarf Garchomp (and possibly other sets as well) into setup bait. We can also set up on Gliscor and possibly Landorus-Therian as well.

Flying STAB is also the most underrated STAB in the OU tier. Only Heatran, Jirachi, Skarmory, Jolteon, Thundurus-Therian, Magnezone, and Metagross resist both, and Thundurus-Therian and Joleton are so frail that resisted STAB from any reasonable Attack stat is going to OHKO. And we all know that Sitrus Berry and Acrobatics were made for this concept. Don't deny it.

Steel/Ghost and Steel/Flying are probably the two best choices right now, and we have to realize that typing is not the place to sell our Pokemon short. We're going to need as many setup opportunities as possible because thanks to Team Preview, our opponent knows that we're going to try to set up a Belly Drum. Read Pwnemon's post; his argument is completely valid. We're not fooling anyone as to what this Pokemon is trying to do; our goal is to successfully use Belly Drum and clean the opponent's team. Most teams a CAP6-based team faces will have one Pokemon that CAP6 can set up on, but the opponent will realize this and do what they can to prevent CAP6 and their CAP6-weak Pokemon from being on the field at the same time. The more Pokemon we can set up on, the better. It's not hard to do 50% to a Pokemon in this OU metagame, and the more Pokemon that CAP6 can take a hit from at 50% the better. Steel/Ghost is definitely the more cautious option to go with, and Steel/Flying is the more aggressive option. Both typings, however, have enough targets to set up on.

 

[Ignus]

The more I look at Steel/Flying's arguments the more attractive I find it. The option of acrobatics as a main STAB after the use of a berry suddenly opens the option of a powerful attacking option that is unavailable to choice users. The typing allows it to reliably switch in on many extremely common pokemon in the metagame, while still maintaining an offensive presence coverage-wise. Those that are left out of it's "coverage zone" are few and far between, and are mentioned in alexwolf's post. (which everyone should read before dismissing Steel-Flying outright like I almost did) Fortunately/Unfortunately, those pokemon also happen to be some of the most seen Pokemon in OU! This means we may have less trouble with the behemoth +6 CAP6 and balancing it because the counters already exist! Tried and true strategies we already know to work can be applied to CAPmon. But that's not to say it's not still threatening! Even with the relatively low attack of 85 CAP 3hko's all forms of Heatran with acrobatics at +6. That's pretty terrifying when you realize Heatran resists both STABs. Ferrothorn and Scarf rotom-W are also respectively 2HKOed by acrobatics. And this is with the relatively haphazard coverage of just the one move. With bullet punch/other as our priority move, you can see how this may come out.
+6 is scary.
I've shifted my support over to Steel-Flying, as we can mold it into exactly what we need. Who knows, we may even pull of the concept!
I'm looking forward to seeing how the polls; and more specifically, how the project; will turn out. FORWARD HO!

 

[EJ190]

Just a quick question, wouldn't steel/flying be walled by something like magnazone?(nd get trapped by it). I like the idea of steel/fight better since its got stab cc

 

[CJorex]

Just a quick question, wouldn't steel/flying be walled by something like magnazone?(nd get trapped by it). I like the idea of steel/fight better since its got stab cc

You don't seem to realize that everything can be covered depending on what coverage options we decide to give our CAP. For example, Magnezone will not be a problem if we give our CAP any moderately strong ground- or Fighting- type attack

 

[ZhengTann]

Just a quick question, wouldn't steel/flying be walled by something like magnazone?(and get trapped by it). I like the idea of steel/fight better since its got stab cc

Uhm, jumping in extremely late, but just to say something, "trapped/walled by a single OU Pokemon" isn't the best reason to choose something over another. Scizor is walled and screwed over by Volcarona - doesn't mean Scizor is a bad OU Pokemon or that you'd choose Archeops over Scizor just for the Volcarona, no?

I've been thinking about the Steel/Flying bandwagon, and I believe it's one of the good choices put forward thus far. Seconding Korski's statement that Flying scores a damn lot of good neutral hits in the OU metagame, and Belly Drum would allow Flying to have another facet other than Hurricane - Flying-type physical attacks in OU are not commonly seen. This could go in favor of Quan's concept (I believed she mentioned how a combination of uncommon moves can somehow turn into a competitively viable set in OU where it hadn't existed before, right?), and I apologise in advance if I poll-jumped at the "Physical Flying-type attacks" part.

However, I believe psg has a point in there as well about finding types other than Steel. Flying and Ground, on their own, provides niches (including certain entry hazard resistances, resistance to certain priority moves, and solid resistance against some common attacks) that could be explored. We might not have to shoehorn ourselves within sight of Steel just because it does best at what it does.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

You don't seem to realize that everything can be covered depending on what coverage options we decide to give our CAP. For example, Magnezone will not be a problem if we give our CAP any moderately strong ground- or Fighting- type attack

but then you have to ask yourself: Steel/Flying is a great defensive type, and if it gets a strong ground attack to deal with things that wall us . . . why not just make it a choice band/scarf pokémon and forget about the belly drum completely.

That's why I really support something where your best coverage moves are STABS--especially priority STABS--so you can lower the rest of its stats to compensate.

Because I am honestly worried if the CAP is built to be completely hard-countered by magnezone and, yet, can still take it out. Because if it's that versatile, I worry that it'll soon decide that it's versatile enough not to belly drum in the first place.

 

[Fuzznip]

If I was going to select my second favourite typing, Steel/Flying would probably be it. I like how it's mainly immune to Spikes, meaning CAP will be taking the smallest amount of entry hazard damage possible, and it's arguably better than Steel/Ghost offensively from a coverage standpoint.

However, what I don't like about it when compared to Steel/Ghost is that it trades the Fighting immunity for a Ground immunity and a Fighting, Ice, and Rock neutrality. Fighting coverage is everywhere in OU, a lot more common than Ground coverage, and I'm afraid that Steel/Flying will minimize opportunities to set up because it lacks the important resistances/immunities. For instance, it'd be way harder to set up on a Choice-locked Terrakion and even Scizor can end up screwing you over.

It's a good typing, don't get me wrong, but I feel like it trades too much defensive presence for a slightly better Flying STAB, making pulling off Belly Drum more difficult than Steel/Ghost.

 

[Nyktos]

In my last post I only talked about a typing I don't like. I meant to make a post about typings I do like, but now that I'm getting a change it seems the apparent frontrunners (Steel/Ghost and Steel/Flying) are my favourites anyway. As such even though they are my favoured options, I don't think there's much point in making a post all about how great they are, as others like Fuzznip and alexwolf have mostly covered that. So instead I'll just talk about some other things I think are worth bringing up.

First of all, while I think the Steel types are probably better, Ghost/Ground is actually a pretty interesting typing that hasn't gotten a lot of attention. As paintseagull pointed out, Ground shares a number of the major benefits of Steel, such as an immunity to sandstorm and a resistance to Stealth Rock. Like Steel/Ghost it can set up on Terrakion with ease, and in fact is slightly better at that since it isn't even weak to Earthquake. The lack of Toxic immunity is a bit of a bummer, as is the weakness to Ice (in particular, Mamoswine is now a perfect revenge killer). As such, I think this is an inferior option to Steel/Ghost as I really don't feel that we are in much danger of breaking the CAP right now and I've never been a fan of deliberately picking a worse option to try and preempt future breakage. However, I think this is easily the best non-Steel typing we've seen, and those who are afraid of Steel should be supporting it in my opinion.

One major thing that all three of the types I like have in common is a competitively-relevant immunity (Fighting for the ghosts, and Ground for Steel/Flying). With a setup move that eats half the CAP's health, this is huge, and I would even go as far as to say that any typing that isn't part Ghost or Flying is mistake. Immunities are one of the best ways to make a Belly Drummer relevant to OU, and typing is the best place to get them. (I do think immunity abilities are a legitimate avenue for this CAP to take, but we have to give up a lot more for an immunity at that stage than we do at this one). In addition, not all immunities are created equal: sure, Normal and Steel are immune to Ghost and Poison respectively, but attacks of those types are rarely seen and it is not too hard to avoid using them when you do happen to have them on your team. Fighting and Ground, on the other hand, are very important coverage types and most teams carry a user of at least one of those types. Yes, people will try to avoid using moves of those types when they see the CAP on the opposing team, but with some smart team building that can be taken advantage of: combining a Ghost-type CAP 6 with Tyranitar, for instance, can put the opponent between a rock and a hard place as far as using Fighting moves goes.

(Incidentally, while Ghost/Flying would be cool, its weakness to Rock makes it a much worse choice than just using one of the two types alongside something else.)

 

[alexwolf]

If I was going to select my second favourite typing, Steel/Flying would probably be it. I like how it's mainly immune to Spikes, meaning CAP will be taking the smallest amount of entry hazard damage possible, and it's arguably better than Steel/Ghost offensively from a coverage standpoint.

However, what I don't like about it when compared to Steel/Ghost is that it trades the Fighting immunity for a Ground immunity and a Fighting, Ice, and Rock neutrality. Fighting coverage is everywhere in OU, a lot more common than Ground coverage, and I'm afraid that Steel/Flying will minimize opportunities to set up because it lacks the important resistances/immunities. For instance, it'd be way harder to set up on a Choice-locked Terrakion and even Scizor can end up screwing you over.

It's a good typing, don't get me wrong, but I feel like it trades too much defensive presence for a slightly better Flying STAB, making pulling off Belly Drum more difficult than Steel/Ghost.

Still don't forget the Ghost and Dark neutralities on Steel / Ghost, which makes setting up on Gengar and choice-locked Tyranitar easier. The Ice neutrality is only relevant for Mamoswine anyway, which Steel/Flying deals with much better than Steel/ghost, as other Pokemon who use Ice moves have other moves to hit those two typings with such as Electric (Thund-T, Jolteon, Rotom-W) or Water (Politoed, Starmie), which means that it is moot in the end. Finally, the Rock resistance is only relevant for the Fighting-types that Ghost/Steel is already suited for taking on, as any other type of Pokemon that uses Rock attacks has something else to hit with a Steel/Ghost such as Ground moves.

So in the end, it all comes down to this, do we want to setup on Fighting or Ground moves? As i already showed in my list, both typings have almost equal number of Pokemon that they can setup on numerically and unconditionally, meaning almost equal setup chances roughly. But the Flying typing has the edge offensively, the immunity to Spikes, is still checkable by priority unlike Ghost/Steel, and doesn't act as a spinblocker for offensive teams (which is something we should discourage imo, as i prefer us to make a setup sweeper that murders offense and doesn't help offense). Both typings are perfect for the project but i think that Steel/Flying gives a bit more flexibility for the latest stages.

 

[jynx KB]

I know it's going to look like I just jumped on the bandwagon after the initial push, but as good debates do, the argument for Steel/Flying has won me over. As much as I liked the pairing with Poison, Flying has most of the factors I like without going off the deep end and using Ghost. The immunities and potential for spinblocking just tip the scales too far into the territory of wall and pivot. We still have our resistances on these attacks anyway.

 

[reachzero]

Because there has been a lot of Choice Band talk, let's go over the qualities that make for a good Choice Band/Specs user.

A good Choice Band user has at least one and preferably two powerful moves that can be effectively spammed. The more coverage options a Pokemon needs, the less effective in generally is as a Choice item user. Moves can be spammed so long as they are powerful, are rarely resisted or are complemented by another spammable move, and are difficult to punish. A move is not effectively spammable if it is easily punished, even if it is very powerful. For instance, Thunder is a very powerful move, but getting locked into Thunder against a Ground type or against Thundurus-t can mean absolute destruction, so it is not as spammable as Hydro Pump, which heavily damages even Pokemon that resist it (in Rain) and which fewer Pokemon are immune to. Close Combat is spammable when used by a fast Pokemon if using it will get many OHKOs and 2HKOs (as Terrakion does), but not when used by a slow Pokemon, that is more vulnerable to taking hits that punish the defensive stat drops.

It is virtually a guarantee that any type combination involving Steel that does not also include Ground, Fire or Fighting will never use Choice Band, simply because Magnezone exists. Being locked into a move that cannot kill Magnezone means certain death, and using a non-STAB coverage move means you are sacrificing most of the power that constitutes the whole point of using Choice Band. The more a Pokemon depends on coverage, the greater the likelihood that it will use a non-Choice set (which for us likely means using Belly Drum). Worrying about any Steel type that isn't Steel/Fire using a Choice Band is probably not wise, Belly Drum will always be more popular.

I will be closed this thread and posting the slate in a few hours, so it would be best to get your thoughts in now!

edit:
<Pwnemon> steel/fire would never use choice band
<Pwnemon> ever
<Pwnemon> know why? politoed exists


IMPORTANT EDIT: Time's up! Our slate shall be:
Steel/Flying
Ghost/Steel
Ghost/Water
Dragon/Steel
Fire/Steel

Maybe even....Blue Steel

Fairy/Steel? Not so much...

 

[capefeather]

There were two typings I was mainly thinking of adding: Poison / Steel and Ghost / Ground. I find the latter particularly interesting, but there doesn't seem to be any argument actually putting it above the other slated typings other than not being yet another Steel typing. Poison / Steel has the early support going for it, but I kind of have to wonder if it's the best typing for what it generally aims to do. reachzero's criticisms of it were never really addressed. I get the argument that we don't have to optimize everything, but I think a suggestion should at least be the best at what it generally aims to do, positive or negative. I'd use a similar reasoning to reject Water / Dragon if I were really considering it. I kind of wanted more than one non-Steel, but I can't really find a good candidate, so the slate stays as-is.

As a side note: While waiting for reachzero's slate, I had my best run yet against a boss I've been trying to beat. Got it down to about 20000 / 96000 HP before I completely messed up. X( On a lighter note:

The end is especially sexy.