CAP 7 CAP 7 - Part 15b - New Move Poll 2

[Magmortified]

Our Pokemon so far:

Name: Ultimate Scout
Description: A Pokemon that is very capable of forcing the opponent to reveal vital information about their team members and their moves using various techniques.

Type: Steel / Ghost
Ability: Frisk / Limber
Stats: 80 HP / 103 Atk / 85 Def /55 SpA /80 SpD /110 Spe

In this thread, vote for the new move you think would be best for CAP 7. Use the clicky poll above to vote. The names of the new moves are subject to change.

Options:

Rift Hop:
Rift Hop:

Eh Bass thought the one that was posted earlier by someone else was a bit too much, so I thought I would clean it up a bit and make it less "broken". Credit for the name to whoever the original creator was.

Rift Hop
Power: 60
Accuracy: 100
Type: Ghost
PP: 10
Priority: 0
Ability: Acts like U-Turn except with the added effect that it halves the residual damage taken from Spikes / Stealth Rock upon entry for the Pokemon that switches in.

Spikes:
1 layer: 6.25% (6%)
2 layers: 9.375% (9%)
3 layers: 12.5% (12%)

Stealth Rock:
4x Resistant: 1.5625% (1%)
2x Resistant: 3.125% (3%)
Neutral: 6.25% (6%)
2x Weak: 12.5% (12%)
4x Weak: 25% (25%)

Shadow Strike:

I don't think we should create a steel STAB. Steel already has perfectly viable moves in Iron Head and Meteor Mash. They pack a nice punch and should force switches either through sheer power or flinching annoyance. Ghost is the STAB here needing help, since the very best attack it can have (not including Shadow Force) is Shadow Claw, that has a awful BP and rather useless secondary effect. With that in mind, I really suggest we make this new attack Ghost-Typed, so it has two good STABs to work with.

Moving to the secondary effect here, I am against pairing U-turn with Ghost Type as I really wouldn't like to see our best scouting move being nullified just because your opponent likes a normal type. Even without STAB, U-turn is already a fine move (take Flygon for example). Other examples of secondary effects that I don't find appealing for this poke are status inflicting moves (unless you do something like yawn, but this is for offensive moves), since switching out after being statused gives you no benefits (excluding nature cure pokes) and is actually bad, since it opens up the possibility of you getting another poke statused. So, I believe this move should have a secondary effect that either puts the opponent in a bad situation AND disappears upon switching (best examples being Confusion and stat reduction) or just forces the opponent out right away (roar for example). Of those options, I prefered to be a little conservative and chose something already existant (Crush Claw), only with a small power boost so it can play better the role of main STAB.

With all that being said, this is my proposition:

Shadow Strike (can you get more generic than that?)
Type: Ghost
Physical
Power: 80
Accuracy: 95%
PP: 10
Special: 50% chance of lowering defense 1 stage

80 BP so it is reliable without being overly powerful; 95% accuracy because I feel a 100% accuracy move with that secondary effect would be a tad too good, especially if compared to Crunch (but I can change to 100% if necessary) and 95% is more than enough (take Air Slash, for example); 10 pp just because and 50% chance of lowering def 1 stage because a 2 stage drop can be a bit too extreme (for example it makes it possible for this poke to 2HKO Bronzong with LO, which is bad, while -1 packs enough power to 2HKO Bold Zapdos with LO and SR) and we need to make it happen often enough to make it reliable.

Steel or Ghost (STAB) U-Turn

Phase/Phase Attack:

Phase or Phase Attack
Type: Ghost
Power: 70
Accuracy: 100%
PP: 20
Priority: 0

Attacks, then switches. Basically a U-turn clone ability with STAB and a theme to fit the pokémon as some of the concept art had it jumping out of a portal. Fits the scouting part, too.

Barrel Roll:

Barrel Roll
Type: Steel
Attribute: Physical
BP: 70
PP: 20
Accuracy: 100
Priority: 0
Effect: Switches out after damage.

Steel U-Turn, yessiree...

 

[Ellington]

STAB U-Turn

I don't want to over-complicate things.

 

[tennisace]

Someone change my vote to STAB U-turn please.

 

[cyberzero]

Shadow Strike. The other two dominate U-Turn. Do we want U-Turn dominated? I should think not.

 

[Deck Knight]

Shadow Strike.

Reliable Ghost STAB plox.

 

[Veedrock]

Ugh, I can't decide. Don't want STAB U-turn (including Rift Hop) because we already have U-turn, boo hoo that it lacks STAB. Shadow Strike seems too strong to me. CAP7 is already strong, and having a 50% chance to lower defense makes this thing more capable to sweep. Coupled with entry hazards to make switching punishable, it could quickly cause problems.

 

[Objection]

Shadow Strike simply because if you want one of the other moves, you have a lot of explaining to do regarding why you didn't want U-turn banned from CAP7's movepool.

I repeat, if you want STAB U-turn or Rift Hop, why did you not want ordinary U-turn banned?

 

[ferron]

voted shadow strike for many of the reasons listed in the past thread. and if you need a reminder then here you go:

arguments against more switching moves
mine
Veed

arguments against only rift hop
DK
Mag
Naxte
DJD

also, current list of allowed switching moves:
u-turn
BP
memento

edit @ mag- i just realized that healing wish was never put on any of the lists on supporting move discussion though it was mentioned by different people, was this bc it generally isn't considered a competitive move or b/c it didn't have enough supporters?

 

[billymills]

Why would we want normal U-Turn banned? Just because moveA is far superior to moveB doesn't mean it shouldn't get both.

Shadow Strike is a complete waste of time. There is no possible way it will help with scouting, it completely goes against the purpose of this CAP. There is absolutely no reason to vote for it.

I voted Rift Hop, before I saw Doug's problems with it. I don't think the extra effort will be worth the change over a Stab U-Turn. Someone change my vote to Stab U-turn please.

 

[ferron]

Why would we want normal U-Turn banned? Just because moveA is far superior to moveB doesn't mean it shouldn't get both.

Shadow Strike is a complete waste of time. There is no possible way it will help with scouting, it completely goes against the purpose of this CAP. There is absolutely no reason to vote for it.

I voted Rift Hop, before I saw Doug's problems with it. I still believe that it is a good move, and worthwhile, but if it is too difficult to program, I have no objections to a STAB U-Turn instead. Anyone who wants this CAP remotely on task would vote Rift Hop or STAB U-Turn.

so you're telling us that stat drops have never caused you worry or made you want to switch out?

 

[Objection]

Why would we want normal U-Turn banned? Just because moveA is far superior to moveB doesn't mean it shouldn't get both.

Except that both moves are supposed to be competitive. If we allow ordinary U-turn, a unique and competitive move, on CAP7's movepool, we don't then go and make it redundant unless we're stupid. As the old saying goes, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

This is why I was wary of voting in favour of a new move for CAP7. I thought that people might look past the whole 'STAB U-turn' idea and think of other ways that a scout could do its job, but to no avail.

 

[billymills]

so you're telling us that stat drops have never caused you worry or made you want to switch out?

Erm, i switched in Skarmory, now you have nothing to harm me even with my -1 def, and now I can set up spikes.

No one would switch in something that could be two hit anyway. Sure it could force a switch, but then you'll have to switch out anyway, leaving no advantage.

Shadow Strike has absolutely no purpose.

Except that both moves are supposed to be competitive. If we allow ordinary U-turn, a unique and competitive move, on CAP7's movepool, we don't then go and make it redundant unless we're stupid. As the old saying goes, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

U-Turn is a TM. It takes up no space whatsoever.

What does that have to do with it?

It means that a viable move spot (of about 6) was not taken to allow this pokemon to use U-Turn. In otherwords, U-Turn is completely negligible.

How many pokemon learn moves like Ember, Flame Wheel, Magnitude, Water Gun, etc. Of all of those, how often is that move not redundant?

 

[ferron]

Erm, i switched in Skarmory, now you have nothing to harm me even with my -1 def, and now I can set up spikes.

No one would switch in something that could be two hit anyway. Sure it could force a switch, but then you'll have to switch out anyway, leaving no advantage.

Shadow Strike has absolutely no purpose.



U-Turn is a TM. It takes up no space whatsoever.

your supposed to then switch the scout out in that situation, it isn't supposed to stay there and try to sweep

 

[billymills]

So scout, then be scouted etc. for the rest of the battle? Thats hardly scouting, that's just a regular battle. A U-Turn variant allows more increased damage, while also giving your incoming pokemon an advantage of some type. Be it type advantage, or set advantage (wall against sweeper). Allowing for a free turn of set up, or a powerful hit. Unlike Shadow Strike, which allows your opponent the advantage of guessing who you will switch to next.

 

[bugmaniacbob]

I don't like Shadow Strike, far from it, but by Scizor's titanium-reinforced scarlet cock, it's better than that ghastly Rift Hop.

 

[Naxte]

Shadow Strike is a complete waste of time. There is no possible way it will help with scouting, it completely goes against the purpose of this CAP. There is absolutely no reason to vote for it.

It can cause switches through defense drops, something that Rift Hop and STAB U-turn can't do. From a scouting perspective, Rift Hop and STAB U-turn do the exact same things that U-turn do; doing damage as you switch out and scouting predicted switches. They might do it better, but they do exactly the same thing, in terms of scouting ability.

Shadow Strike, on the other hand, gives it a good power reliable STAB move that can actually cause switches due to a defense drop, opening up new doors and ways for CAP7 to scout, while still leaving U-turn open for the old ways. Shadow Strike also isn't taking up your Ghost STAB slot for a move that's even weaker than Shadow Claw, which itself isn't that great. Shadow Strike/*Fighting Move*/U-turn/Filler achieves the same result as a Rift Hop based moveslot, but better, having more methods of scouting and with a not-so-bad move taking up its Ghost move slot. True, Rift Hop may be able to do everything at once, but it's not that great as a STAB move coming off of only 103 attack, and thus not doing the offensive role that well, so I'd rather just use Shadow Strike (or rather Shadow Claw, if it doesn't get it) and U-turn, so it can do both jobs decently (good power STAB that can also possibly end up being used for scouting, and U-turn, which can accomplish its primary purpose, scouting predicted switches, even without STAB), instead of trying to do both jobs in one move, and end up only succeeding at one (predicting switches with U-turn, while not being great as STAB, despite taking up its moveslot).

Thus, I'm still supporting Shadow Strike.

 

[Hyra]

Don't want Rift Hop at all, don't see a need for STAB U-turn, so Shadow Strike it is.

 

[tennisace]

Shadow Strike, on the other hand, gives it a good power reliable STAB move that can actually cause switches due to a defense drop, opening up new doors and ways for CAP7 to scout, while still leaving U-turn open for the old ways. Shadow Strike also isn't taking up your Ghost STAB slot for a move that's even weaker than Shadow Claw, which itself isn't that great. Shadow Strike/*Fighting Move*/U-turn/Filler achieves the same result as a Rift Hop based moveslot, but better, having more methods of scouting and with a not-so-bad move taking up its Ghost move slot. True, Rift Hop may be able to do everything at once, but it's not that great as a STAB move coming off of only 103 attack, and thus not doing the offensive role that well, so I'd rather just use Shadow Strike (or rather Shadow Claw, if it doesn't get it) and U-turn, so it can do both jobs decently (good power STAB that can also possibly end up being used for scouting, and U-turn, which can accomplish its primary purpose, scouting predicted switches, even without STAB), instead of trying to do both jobs in one move, and end up only succeeding at one (predicting switches with U-turn, while not being great as STAB, despite taking up its moveslot).

Thus, I'm still supporting Shadow Strike.

Well I can see a couple holes in your statement. The biggest one is that anything that will be switching into CAP7 is going to be defensive and unable to be 2HKO'd. Things like Stratagem/Dugtrio would be Revenge-Kill only. The second thing is that all Fighting-type moves are banned from the movepool, so I don't see how you would have a set with them in it.

 

[Objection]

It means that a viable move spot (of about 6) was not taken to allow this pokemon to use U-Turn. In otherwords, U-Turn is completely negligible.

That's exactly the problem - you're still trying to make a unique competitive move (seriously, pay attention to the words 'unique' and 'competitive) on this pokemon's movepool redundant. It doesn't matter how it gets U-turn, the point is it gets it and therefore, given the move's uniqueness, shouldn't have another move doing the same thing.
Similarly, if CAP7 were to get Fake Out, it would be wrong to have another move with +1 priority that has a 100% chance of flinching the opponent, especially if the new move did the job better, which in the case of U-turn is Rift Hop.

 

[Stellar]

Didn't see that Doug might have issues programming the move, so I'm with tennisace that I would like to switch to STAB U-Turn.

 

[tennisace]

That's exactly the problem - you're still trying to make a unique competitive move (seriously, pay attention to the words 'unique' and 'competitive) on this pokemon's movepool redundant. It doesn't matter how it gets U-turn, the point is it gets it and therefore, given the move's uniqueness, shouldn't have another move doing the same thing.
Similarly, if CAP7 were to get Fake Out, it shouldn't have another move with +1 priority that has a 100% chance of flinching the opponent.

Replace U-turn with Crush Claw and you'll see how ridiculous your argument is.

 

[billymills]

Why are there move clones to begin with? T-Bolt is just an electric version of Ice Beam, therefore it shouldn't exist. Bullet Punch is merely a Steel Quick attack, there's no reason for that.

All of those are comparable competitive moves, all have more clones. If something does it's job correctly, why not make more of them?

If you have a problem fitting it into the movepool, it may be that the other moves you want included make no sense at all. Once you can show me a list of 6 moves that you make sense over Stab U-Turn, please tell me.

 

[Objection]

Replace U-turn with Crush Claw and you'll see how ridiculous your argument is.

Crush Claw's a competitive move?

 

[reyscarface]

Voted Rift Hop again ^^

 

[tennisace]

Crush Claw's a competitive move?

Well then if it isn't competitive why bother making a clone, since clearly it isn't that good.