Doug would have to change how Forecast is coded in order to get it to work with CAP 8, which may or may not be an extremely painful process.
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CAP 8 CAP 8 - Concept Assessment
- Thread starter cyberzero
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The coding of this Pokemon is currently not an issue. It's Pending for a reason and that is because there is no evidence or argument that it should be either allowed or unallowed. Once Doug or another programmer comment on any ability in particular, it will then be placed accordingly. Please don't worry about the programming yet, once they make a statement it will be final.
I think Mold Breaker, Magic Guard, or Shield Dust should be used. Reasons:
Mold Breaker is an amazing ability. Allowing Earthquake to hit Rotom or Gengar or anything else that Levitates. It also allows electric attacks to hit Electivire, Lanturn, and Jolteon (Motor Drive and Volt Absorb) and water attacks to hit Vaporeon and Mantine (Water Absorb) or fire attacks to hit anything with Flash Fire.
Magic Guard is another very useful ability. Not being hurt by Stealth Rock, recoil, Poison or Burn is a huge advantage. If incorporated into a defensive Pokemon, it could be used in many interesting ways.
Shield Dust is a great ability. Getting rid of added effects in moves could come in really handy. No more flinchhax Togekiss? No more burn on Flamethrower? No more Paralysis we Thunderbolt? Heck yes.
Mold Breaker is an amazing ability. Allowing Earthquake to hit Rotom or Gengar or anything else that Levitates. It also allows electric attacks to hit Electivire, Lanturn, and Jolteon (Motor Drive and Volt Absorb) and water attacks to hit Vaporeon and Mantine (Water Absorb) or fire attacks to hit anything with Flash Fire.
Magic Guard is another very useful ability. Not being hurt by Stealth Rock, recoil, Poison or Burn is a huge advantage. If incorporated into a defensive Pokemon, it could be used in many interesting ways.
Shield Dust is a great ability. Getting rid of added effects in moves could come in really handy. No more flinchhax Togekiss? No more burn on Flamethrower? No more Paralysis we Thunderbolt? Heck yes.
I wasn't really refering to the coding, just the REASON I believe it was coded that way, my apologies.
Regardless, as long as Doug doesn't mind reprogramming forecast, it is viable for use on CAP8 =/
Mold Breaker is getting a lot of support. We'd have a functional Pokemon sure, but it doesn't seem very interesting. Slap on EQ and we can call it a day.
Also, Baton Passing isn't getting any harder, so I'd like to see Simple moved to Unallowed until we've seen if this Pokemon is counterable by Arghonaut or not.
The Allowed list looks cool anyhow. I'm personally interested in Gluttony and how a clever combination of stats and typing could take advantage of the ridiculously popular Stealth Rock. Likewise Quick Feet taking advantage of Toxic Spikes. Bother are more interesting and flexible solutions to dealing with entry hazards than Magic Guard.
Also, Baton Passing isn't getting any harder, so I'd like to see Simple moved to Unallowed until we've seen if this Pokemon is counterable by Arghonaut or not.
The Allowed list looks cool anyhow. I'm personally interested in Gluttony and how a clever combination of stats and typing could take advantage of the ridiculously popular Stealth Rock. Likewise Quick Feet taking advantage of Toxic Spikes. Bother are more interesting and flexible solutions to dealing with entry hazards than Magic Guard.
The following abilities are currently Pending. They possibly require more discussion or a poll to dictate whether or not they'll be allowed.
Stall - This is neither coded nor a very good ability. The Pokemon with this Ability moves last, so it would be unecessary and restrictive on an offensive Pokemon. It cannot be placed anywhere until the Bias polls.
Tinted Lens - Yanmega is currently low OU in the CAP metagame, but this is the lesser used ability. Needs more discussion as to whether or not it should be allowed.
Scrappy - This would kill stall. Stall is a favorite of many people on the server, which is where these will be playtested. Scrappy Spinners would be interesting but would require no thought. Switching a Ghost into Rapid Spin requires skill and prediction. There have been no reasons for this to be either allowed or unallowed.
Wonder Guard - This is extremely controversial. More discussion is required. We don't want to create a Wondertomb, but we want something that is more usable than Shedinja. The typing poll along with the opinions of the community will decide this.
Slow Start - The bias means a lot. A defensive bias would move this to Allowed because it would allow us to learn how this Pokemon would be viable in OU. It has been shown that stats alone do not dictate whether or not it is viable competitively or not.
Forecast - Also as controversial as Wonder Guard. It needs more discussion.
Snow Warning - Typing will indicate whether or not this is allowed. It would hinder a non-Ice type, therefore we must wait until the type is chosen. More discussion is also required.
For the abilities that need more discussion, please discuss. For those that need to wait for their respective polls, we shall wait. Everyone has something to contribute!
Stall - This is neither coded nor a very good ability. The Pokemon with this Ability moves last, so it would be unecessary and restrictive on an offensive Pokemon. It cannot be placed anywhere until the Bias polls.
Tinted Lens - Yanmega is currently low OU in the CAP metagame, but this is the lesser used ability. Needs more discussion as to whether or not it should be allowed.
Scrappy - This would kill stall. Stall is a favorite of many people on the server, which is where these will be playtested. Scrappy Spinners would be interesting but would require no thought. Switching a Ghost into Rapid Spin requires skill and prediction. There have been no reasons for this to be either allowed or unallowed.
Wonder Guard - This is extremely controversial. More discussion is required. We don't want to create a Wondertomb, but we want something that is more usable than Shedinja. The typing poll along with the opinions of the community will decide this.
Slow Start - The bias means a lot. A defensive bias would move this to Allowed because it would allow us to learn how this Pokemon would be viable in OU. It has been shown that stats alone do not dictate whether or not it is viable competitively or not.
Forecast - Also as controversial as Wonder Guard. It needs more discussion.
Snow Warning - Typing will indicate whether or not this is allowed. It would hinder a non-Ice type, therefore we must wait until the type is chosen. More discussion is also required.
For the abilities that need more discussion, please discuss. For those that need to wait for their respective polls, we shall wait. Everyone has something to contribute!
It would be very difficult to build a good Pokemon around Forecast. Tyranitar shits all over it, bringing in Sand and killing your STAB move.
Also, the only type change that would be useful would be Ice- Drizzle and Drought are only on ubers. May as well have just gone with Snowdra if you're going to use Forecast. :/
Of course, Skill Swap+Forecast might work, but I don't like having a Pokemon which is essentially limited to three move slots.
Also, the only type change that would be useful would be Ice- Drizzle and Drought are only on ubers. May as well have just gone with Snowdra if you're going to use Forecast. :/
Of course, Skill Swap+Forecast might work, but I don't like having a Pokemon which is essentially limited to three move slots.
Flame Body could be very useful with all the contact moves being thrown around OU, and would be especially useful on a bulky pokemon. Right now, all the users of Flame Body are either too frail (Magmortar) or have a terrible typing (Magcargo). But I think this could potentially benefit the metagame quite a bit - imagine bringing this in as Scizor U-turns and leaving it with a nice burn, or Metagross and Meteor Mash, etc.
I'm not going to write big paragraphs supporting them, but I think Unburden, Reckless, Tinted Lenses, Hustle, Dry Skin, Rough Skin, and Shield Dust are all quite good options as well.
I'm not going to write big paragraphs supporting them, but I think Unburden, Reckless, Tinted Lenses, Hustle, Dry Skin, Rough Skin, and Shield Dust are all quite good options as well.
I vote for:
Rough Skin: A physical wall with some type of recovery could work very well with this, a decent HP stat would be needed of course.
Mold Breaker: The issue here is that we might just be making a Rampardos with worse attack and more speed. I think that it will have to have EQ, because Levitate is the most important ability that it will discard. It can still be done well though.
Colour Change: Yes, that's how it's spelt where I live. Moving on, I think that it would severely lower the use of Choice items, someone mentioned only 9 types resisting themselves, but it's not that hard to predict the use of one of those types. Like Rough Skin, recovery is needed.
Rough Skin: A physical wall with some type of recovery could work very well with this, a decent HP stat would be needed of course.
Mold Breaker: The issue here is that we might just be making a Rampardos with worse attack and more speed. I think that it will have to have EQ, because Levitate is the most important ability that it will discard. It can still be done well though.
Colour Change: Yes, that's how it's spelt where I live. Moving on, I think that it would severely lower the use of Choice items, someone mentioned only 9 types resisting themselves, but it's not that hard to predict the use of one of those types. Like Rough Skin, recovery is needed.
Reckless: Really good to boost moves up, and only one pokemon has it. The pokemon that does have it hardly uses it (if ever).
Trace: One of the most neglected abilities in the game. Imagine using a more defensive version of porygon with this ability, particularly one that could stat up (curse perhaps?).
Magic Guard: Holy crap imagine a super wall with this ability, does so much to support a team. Imagine something that can set up using this ability. Getting rocks while the enemy tries in vain to parylise you.
Trace: One of the most neglected abilities in the game. Imagine using a more defensive version of porygon with this ability, particularly one that could stat up (curse perhaps?).
Magic Guard: Holy crap imagine a super wall with this ability, does so much to support a team. Imagine something that can set up using this ability. Getting rocks while the enemy tries in vain to parylise you.
I would say that the best abilities for this project are:
1.Shield Dust-Firstly, in CAP, Jirachi and Togekiss are stronger than in normal OU. A Shield Dust user would help lower their usage, as well as block random para/freeze/burn hax. This could also go on a sweeper (to keep from being fliched to death) or a tank (screw you status hax!) so the stat spread doesn't matter.
2.Tinted Lens-Another great ability. Actually, its probably the best offensive ability. It is extremely flexable and can go with any typing or offensive stat spread.
3. Solid Rock/Filter-Antoher ability that helps both offensive and defensive pokemon. They allow more switch ins to offensive pokes, and allow defensive ones to adapt better. While its not my favorite, I would say its more viable than a lot of other mentioned abilities.
Nothing else really stands out to me as great abilities. However, I find the following to be TERRIBLE.
1.Wonder Guard-Its disgusting people actually want this. It would have to have multiple weakness, and a low HP stat. The worst thing would be if people vote for bad typing to get this allowed, and it doesn't win... we have something that dies to... everything.
2.Magic Guard-Nearly as bad as Wonder Guard, this is overly broken on anything with good stats its not even funny. Passive damage is sometimes the only way to take something down.
3.Rough Skin-I love it, but anything defensive with this would make Stall teams even better. Notice how all the bad abilities are defensive. There is a reason, they are all overpowering on Stall.
Other comments:
Mold Breaker sounds great and all, but its easy to avoid. The most commonly mentioned pokemon are Zong and Heatran to eliminate Ground and Fire weaknesses. This would imply that CAP8 has both types of moves. Heatran and Zong are weak to each others immunities. So why bother??? Fire/Ground gives you the same coverage against them without Mold Breaker.
Skill Link-Subs are annoying. But an ENTIRE CONCEPT based around breaking them? Not very practical.
Aftermath-Again like Skill Link its cool, but it doesn't do enough to base an entire concept around it.
Solar Power-I would prefer to give CAP8 NP over this. The boost is great, but, the "recoil" isn't.
Color Change-it forces out Choice Users... but why not bring in something that already resists the choice move and take less damage? If I have a color change pokemon and a normal resistor with the same defense, I switch in the normal resistor. It will take less damage.
1.Shield Dust-Firstly, in CAP, Jirachi and Togekiss are stronger than in normal OU. A Shield Dust user would help lower their usage, as well as block random para/freeze/burn hax. This could also go on a sweeper (to keep from being fliched to death) or a tank (screw you status hax!) so the stat spread doesn't matter.
2.Tinted Lens-Another great ability. Actually, its probably the best offensive ability. It is extremely flexable and can go with any typing or offensive stat spread.
3. Solid Rock/Filter-Antoher ability that helps both offensive and defensive pokemon. They allow more switch ins to offensive pokes, and allow defensive ones to adapt better. While its not my favorite, I would say its more viable than a lot of other mentioned abilities.
Nothing else really stands out to me as great abilities. However, I find the following to be TERRIBLE.
1.Wonder Guard-Its disgusting people actually want this. It would have to have multiple weakness, and a low HP stat. The worst thing would be if people vote for bad typing to get this allowed, and it doesn't win... we have something that dies to... everything.
2.Magic Guard-Nearly as bad as Wonder Guard, this is overly broken on anything with good stats its not even funny. Passive damage is sometimes the only way to take something down.
3.Rough Skin-I love it, but anything defensive with this would make Stall teams even better. Notice how all the bad abilities are defensive. There is a reason, they are all overpowering on Stall.
Other comments:
Mold Breaker sounds great and all, but its easy to avoid. The most commonly mentioned pokemon are Zong and Heatran to eliminate Ground and Fire weaknesses. This would imply that CAP8 has both types of moves. Heatran and Zong are weak to each others immunities. So why bother??? Fire/Ground gives you the same coverage against them without Mold Breaker.
Skill Link-Subs are annoying. But an ENTIRE CONCEPT based around breaking them? Not very practical.
Aftermath-Again like Skill Link its cool, but it doesn't do enough to base an entire concept around it.
Solar Power-I would prefer to give CAP8 NP over this. The boost is great, but, the "recoil" isn't.
Color Change-it forces out Choice Users... but why not bring in something that already resists the choice move and take less damage? If I have a color change pokemon and a normal resistor with the same defense, I switch in the normal resistor. It will take less damage.
That being said, the same thing applies to Arceus and the multi-type ability in that it only works with him. Programming should be a non-issue, however it does seem that it would clearly alter something that was meant to be exclusive and non-interchangeable. I suppose would be up to the community to decide if there is any good reason why said abilites should be mutually exclusive. Personally I think Multi-type would allow for a pokemon that could fill any positon. While it might be somewhat interesting, I think it would be too broad. The same could be said for forcast, but to a lesser degree.
-Filter is the same as Solid rock, which is on an OU pokemon.
-Unaware, Frisk, Compound eyes, Shed skin, Rockhead, Battle armor,Vital spirit(Same as insomnia), Levitate, and Limber are on previous CAP's and could possibly be avoided for this CAP.
-Huge Power, Pure Power, and Wonder Guard seem a bit over powered.
IMO these seem to be the most general and balanced underused abilities:
-Leaf guard prevents all status conditions in sunlight and seems like it could be fairly interesting for any team that takes advantage of sunlight.
*Magic guard prevents all indirect damage (stealth rock, spikes, poison burn, sandstorm, hail, Life orb recoil) and seems like a very solid basis.
Marvel Scale Increases defense by 50% when statused and could be the solid basis of a stat absorber.
*Mold Breaker Negates any abilty that hinder attacks(Filter, Solid rock, Damp, Levitate, Heat proof, Thick fat etc.) and would be very useful to any sweeper.
Shield Dust Could be used on most anything, and blocking secondary effects is always a plus.
*Tinted LensCould be an absolute beast. This would allow for decent damage to be done to nearly anything.
Just my two cents.
Color Change allows versatility. The Color Change CAP would be one Pokemon that could force out a Choice User with any of the nine types.
Well, my vote should go for Color Change, not only is a tricky ability but its weird and only pokemon from all the game has access to it: Keckleon. We never get to see it since Keckleon is a UU Pokemon, perhaps a NU.
With color change the Pokemon can loose its STAB move, gain another STAB move or become a counter depending on the type it gains. In my opinion it would become really fun to play around with.
With color change the Pokemon can loose its STAB move, gain another STAB move or become a counter depending on the type it gains. In my opinion it would become really fun to play around with.
I think that Wonder Guard is way too exclusive to be considered. Even leaving that out of the picture I think that it would be really easy to create a CAP that was just broken, even with careful deliberation.
I really like the idea of a pokemon that can effectively use Stall, especially is said pokemon had access to Skill Swap. Also if CAP8 were to end up being bulky it could become a payback "sweeper".
Lastly Immunity caught my eye as I was browsing through the list. As far as I know only Zangoose and Snorlax can have it (of the pokemon with any Viablility in OU), and Toxic is everywhere. Without Heal Bell or Aromatherapy being badly poisoned each time you switch in can be a real pain.
I really like the idea of a pokemon that can effectively use Stall, especially is said pokemon had access to Skill Swap. Also if CAP8 were to end up being bulky it could become a payback "sweeper".
Lastly Immunity caught my eye as I was browsing through the list. As far as I know only Zangoose and Snorlax can have it (of the pokemon with any Viablility in OU), and Toxic is everywhere. Without Heal Bell or Aromatherapy being badly poisoned each time you switch in can be a real pain.
If you're not going to let us vote on the ability now, we might as well "decide" on one anyway, so at least we have a direction. (I guess people will say that the best type for Ability X would be Type A, and the best type for Ability Y would be Type B, and then if Type A wins, then we just do the rest as if Ability X had already been voted on. Because it's not the Pokemon that counts. It's the process =/)
Anyway, Shield Dust and Simple are still my two favorites. Pyroak already did Flare Blitz and Wood Hammer with Rock Head; it didn't really pan out. Not that I would love a ROck/Grass Wood Hammer / Head Smash beastie.
Kecleon already rocked Color Change out. Better to take an ability an underused Pokemon didn't even do anything with and do something with it, than take Color Change or Slow Start. Those abilities have already had Pokemon made for them in the first place; better to save Kecleon for EVO 1 than do a CAP on Color Change! Shield Dust and Simple, on the other hand, are perfectly fine abilities that haven't been worked with — that's the distinction. Wonder Guard has Shedinja as much as T-tar has Sand Stream. What, exactly, do Shield Dust or Compoundeyes have? Exactly.
Anyway, Shield Dust and Simple are still my two favorites. Pyroak already did Flare Blitz and Wood Hammer with Rock Head; it didn't really pan out. Not that I would love a ROck/Grass Wood Hammer / Head Smash beastie.
Kecleon already rocked Color Change out. Better to take an ability an underused Pokemon didn't even do anything with and do something with it, than take Color Change or Slow Start. Those abilities have already had Pokemon made for them in the first place; better to save Kecleon for EVO 1 than do a CAP on Color Change! Shield Dust and Simple, on the other hand, are perfectly fine abilities that haven't been worked with — that's the distinction. Wonder Guard has Shedinja as much as T-tar has Sand Stream. What, exactly, do Shield Dust or Compoundeyes have? Exactly.
I'm going to bring Snow Warning back up for discussion because there's not been any yet. :S I personally think it could help energize Hail teams in its own fashion as compared to a Kingdra-in-the-Hail providing an alternative to Abomasnow that can hold its own would be a great boost.
Tinted Lens I will agree with. Not much of an issue as far as I can see.
Scrappy is iffy. I'd say Allowed, but only the basis that this doesn't get Rapid Spin. As long as we're willing to agree to that come movepool, we should be okay.
Stall, again, is iffy. If Doug is willing to code this, we should be fine. Competitively, this is kind of in the gray zone. I'm not seeing much reason to Unallow it, but not much reason to Allow it either.
Wonder Guard - please, no. These kinds of abilities require precision handling to avoid being either underpowered, or overpowered. I'm afraid to say I don't think CAP has that kind of precision to it. Let's face it, we do things not with a scalpel, but with a battle axe. We don't use a sniper rifle, we pack a shotgun. I just don't trust that we'll be able to give the careful attention required to keep this thing from falling to either side of the road.
Slow Start, I'm not sure I'd buy this. It simply seems to crippling an ability for us to get past. So we're either going to overcompensate it or undercompensate it without realizing it - similarly to Wonder Guard. I'd avoid this kind of thing.
Tinted Lens I will agree with. Not much of an issue as far as I can see.
Scrappy is iffy. I'd say Allowed, but only the basis that this doesn't get Rapid Spin. As long as we're willing to agree to that come movepool, we should be okay.
Stall, again, is iffy. If Doug is willing to code this, we should be fine. Competitively, this is kind of in the gray zone. I'm not seeing much reason to Unallow it, but not much reason to Allow it either.
Wonder Guard - please, no. These kinds of abilities require precision handling to avoid being either underpowered, or overpowered. I'm afraid to say I don't think CAP has that kind of precision to it. Let's face it, we do things not with a scalpel, but with a battle axe. We don't use a sniper rifle, we pack a shotgun. I just don't trust that we'll be able to give the careful attention required to keep this thing from falling to either side of the road.
Slow Start, I'm not sure I'd buy this. It simply seems to crippling an ability for us to get past. So we're either going to overcompensate it or undercompensate it without realizing it - similarly to Wonder Guard. I'd avoid this kind of thing.
No magic guard, an OU with magic guard would be game breaking and would completely remove all stall from the metagame.
Skill Link has definitely been underlooked, because among the few other candidates out there, Skill Link doesn't really stand out much... However, if we give this CAP8mon a new multi-hit move with more power and possibly a STAB, this Pokemon can proven to be very useful of this ability, especially at breaking substitutes, and can affect the entire game play since there goes a good chunk of those SubPetaya Passers and a lot of Substitute-based teams, and as well as able to deal good amount of damages. If this move has a side-effect, such as, for example, a move called CircuitSurge with 20 power and hits up to 5 times, each has a 10% paralysis chance, now this Pokemon can have 5 of those 10% paralysis chances per turn while using that move, on top of that, 5 chances to score a Critical Hit. That's just an example.
Next question: WHY is Simple not allowed?
Next question: WHY is Simple not allowed?
Kecleon didn't do much of anything with Color Change- it's going to switch in safely on very little, lacks recovery, and has poor stats everywhere except SpD.
What does the "standard" Kecleon set do with Color Change? Absolutely nothing; indeed, it's a hindrance, as CB Kecleon loses Return's STAB if it takes a non-Normal hit.
Simple isn't allowed because everyone would suggest something with good Attack/Special Attack and Swords Dance/Nasty Plot, which would be broken.
What does the "standard" Kecleon set do with Color Change? Absolutely nothing; indeed, it's a hindrance, as CB Kecleon loses Return's STAB if it takes a non-Normal hit.
Simple isn't allowed because everyone would suggest something with good Attack/Special Attack and Swords Dance/Nasty Plot, which would be broken.
I'm sorry, but your sarcasm really isn't appreciated =/
This was decided by not just me, but Doug, Mag and a few others who I've discussed this with. I previously requested many times that if anyone had any suggestions to post it or PM me. Please don't complain about how things are going, this is extremely situational and we are not "deciding" on the ability. I don't think that you fully read the OP because it said that it is still all up to the community - whatever we do for the Typing and Bias will dictate what changes occur to the list of eligible abilities. If someone has good reasoning, their typing will be voted on. Who said that the Pokemon doesn't count? There are many people who actually playtest these Pokemon on the server.
Simple has been relegated to the Not Allowed list. Kecleon isn't a great example of a Color Changer because it's not viable in OU, which is where this CAP is meant to be playtested in.
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