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CAP 8 CAP 8 - Concept Assessment

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Why can't people argue without calling the other side stupid? (or implying it with veiled insults). It is possible for two intelligent people to have different opinions. I hate when a nice investigative debate starts getting personal. There's no reason for that.

I think the discussion about reliability is an interesting one. Both of you (zarator and tennis) have good points. I don't know who I agree with. But, I know I haven't thought about it like this before. That's what CAP is about -- learning about stuff by investigating it in detail. In OU, we'd never think twice about the implications of Static and Flame Body in the metagame. Now, we are having a detailed discussion about the factors that may or may not make those abilities relevant. That's the essence of the CAP project, right there.

So, stop hitting below the belt. It's unnecessary and uncalled for.
 
Sorry Doug, actually my last sentence was a little uncalled for - I wanted only to mean we were using the same word with different meanings (hence the "vocabulary" thing) but I may have been misunderstood. Ah, well.
 
And, honestly, I fail to see how are few the reliable ability. Once you realize what reliability means, you'll see that, aside from "chance" abilities like Static, Flame Body, Poison Point, Anger Point and Cute Charm, all the other abilites are reliable.

For the most part, I agree with what you're saying. But I'd argue that anger point is reliable because ~99% of the time if you are critted -- it activates.

If you live through the crit.
 
I agree strongly with Doug. I haven't posted in this thread in quite a while because I don't know what to think any more. It's all very exciting!

Also, a word about Drizzle: It's completely broken. Go ahead and support it if you don't like Kingdra (and want it banned).

On the other hand, I could see Drought being much harder to abuse. Are there Pokemon that really do all that well in sunlight? Sure, Chlorophyll Pokemon would get quite a boost, but I think it's worth considering whether it's really broken on it's own. It would really make moves like Moonlight and Synthesis a ton more viable.

In the long run, I still support Rough Skin.
 
For the most part, I agree with what you're saying. But I'd argue that anger point is reliable because ~99% of the time if you are critted -- it activates.

If you live through the crit.

Ultimately this is uncorrect, however. You can predict that your opponent will use a Ground move. You can predict that your opponent will switch to a physical attack. But can you predict that your opponent will critically hit you?

And, above all, how are you supposed to help CAP abuse something like Anger Point. Probably it should be bulky. But - are there out any abilities which can be better abused by a bulky Pokémon than Anger Point? My answer is, yes.
 
Here's my picks.

Under Allowed:
Magic Guard: Why coddle stall teams? If we give this a really blatant and common type weakness, a wide range or weaknesses, maybe even a 4x weakness to one of these types, (fighting, ice, ground, etc.) and compensate accordingly it could still be far from gamebreaking. It'd just involve some foresight after the abilities' selected.
Mold Breaker: I like, I like... Besides countering stuff like Heatran and Bronzong it could even serve as a counter to Arghonaut. A very viable option.
Gluttony: Could be promising, maybe even for some Sub-Salac abuse.
Iron Fist: I'd love to see a pokémon other than Hitmonchan with this.
Quick Feet: I'm very interested in seeing the possibility of status-abusing pokes, but Quick Feet is of limited usefulness (I ran an Ursaring with it for a while, and its high Attack was really what saves that.)
Solar Power: An intriguing addition to sun-based teams.

Under Pending
Scrappy: If we give it Rapid Spin, give it a lower speed, so at least people have a chance to kill it off before it gets its spin off, or make it fragile enough that it can only really hope for one spin.
 
For the most part, I agree with what you're saying. But I'd argue that anger point is reliable because ~99% of the time if you are critted -- it activates.

If you live through the crit.

The RNG treats all calls the same. There is a 6.25% chance of getting a crit on any given attack (discounting modifiers here). There is a 30% chance of activating Static/Flame Body. While, yes, every time you get critted and live you get max attack with Anger Point, there's only a 6.25% chance of that happening. I'd say that's less reliable than Static.
 
I think the discussion about reliability is an interesting one. In OU, we'd never think twice about the implications of Static and Flame Body in the metagame. Now, we are having a detailed discussion about the factors that may or may not make those abilities relevant. That's the essence of the CAP project, right there.

I agree with this bit, and think that ultimately it should be Kamen Rider who gets the kudos for highlighting Reliability as an important factor in determining which Abilities could form the basis of a pokemon. It's certainly an interesting lens through which to assess the usefulness of Abilities.

In an attempt to add to the discussion I'll respond to this:

@Jagged Angel:

I completely fail to see how you can call a 30% chance to completely cripple a Pokemon on your opponent's team for pretty much the rest of the game "unreliable", when Shield Dust is just as unreliable. The secondary chances are usually 10 or 20%, and there are significantly fewer Pokemon that use them. The only Pokemon that it would be useful against are Jirachi and Togekiss; the latter is rarely seen as is. Mold Breaker only activates if the opponent has an ability that would hinder your attack.

It is entirely beneficial to this Pokemon to be carrying Static or Flame Body, since with the right typing, while coming into key physical threats, you could cripple them WITHOUT DOING A THING. You can then set up, or predict the switch out. It could completely change the tide of a match. I understand that yes, not all moves are contact, and yes, it won't activate all the time. But not all abilities are useful 100% of the time.

@Kamen Rider: There is no ability that is reliable as much as you'd like. Even the more common ones aren't useful. Levitate only activates on Ground-type moves or Spikes/T-Spikes. Speed Boost only activates a max of 6 times in a row. Intimidate is only useful when you switch into a physical attacker. You see where I'm going? There is no reliable ability that's at the same time neglected.

I think your first sentence is deeply ironic tennis: a 30% chance to completely cripple the opponent's poke? Maybe so, but you can't rely on it happening! Because it has such a low chance of working it simply isn't worth building a pokemon around. Para, burn or poison, is Not completely crippling, it's a severe hindrance but it's not the same as Sleep or Freeze where the opponent literally can't do anything. I recently read a warstory where a Burned Machamp used BU and then did almost 50% damage to a Rotom-c.

Lets also look at OHKO moves as an analogy. Yes it's not perfect since you have to use a moveslot and a turn on them, and there's the cheapness, but the crux of it is that experienced battlers don't want to rely on a 30% chance to OHKO a pokemon because it's Not Reliable. The same principle applies to Static, Flame Body, Poison Point etc.

I didn't mention Shield Dust or Mold Breaker in any of my posts, so fail to see how they are relevant. Bit of a straw man.

In a sense, I agree with zarator about vocabulary, you seem to be using a different definition of reliability to the one I have in mind, as I see Levitate as one of the most reliable Abilities in OU.

Levitate Always avoids Ground moves, Spikes and TS, ~100% of the time. It can be relied upon. You can Always switch a Rotom into an EQ (unless vs a Mold Breaker, or under Gravity (thanks X&Z)). You can Always avoid Skarmory's Spikes and threaten it out with Thunderbolt. Levitate has a job, and it never fails.

I fail to see how the same can be said of Static and co. Yes, Levitate only works on Ground moves. It is useless if you're facing a team without Ground moves and/or entry hazards. But how often does that happen? All Abilities have limitations. But the key to reliability is whether or not an Ability can be Relied upon to do what it is supposed to do.

So in summary, I think it's important to only consider Abilities that have a high chance of being useful in any one match, or even versus any one enemy pokemon, thus fulfilling KR's Reliability criterion.

Therefore, I do not support Allowing Static, Flame Body, Effect Spore or Poison Point.

Edit: Or for that matter, Anger Point.
 
Just a nitpick, but Solarbeam is not technically the most powerful Grass move in the game. Frenzy Plant and Leaf Storm both have higher powers and Seed Flare and Wood Hammer have the same power. Additionally, Grass Knot in many common situations has the same power.
Also for Electric you neglected Volt Tackle, which also shares 120 base power.

I didn't count Frenzy Plant since you cann't move the next turn and only four UU pokes can use it; Leaf Storm because of the drop; Grass Knot is situational; Seed Flare isn't that common, what with only being available to one pokemon; Wood Hammer/Volt Tackle has recoil. I will correct my post, though.

Also, you neglect several important facts - both Hail and Sandstorm generate powerful residual damage and have several other beneficial effects. Sand Veil and Snow Veil may not be as strong as Swift Swim and Chlorophyll, but they can still swing the game in your favor. And Ice Body turns Wallrein into a nearly unkillable Beast. 100% Accurate Blizzard and +50% Special Defense for Rock Types aren't things to be scoffed at either.

To counter this, I never said that Sandstorm and Hail weren't powerfull. I know of their strong points. I just said that Sunny Day and Rain Dance are better.
 
Levitate Always avoids Ground moves, Spikes and TS, 100% of the time. It can be relied upon. You can Always switch in a Rotom to an EQ (unless vs a Mold Breaker). You can Always avoid Skarmory's Spikes and threaten it out with Thunderbolt. Levitate has a job, and it never fails.

Just thought I should point this out, but Gravity cancels Levitate, meaning a Rotom will not be able to switch into Earthquake 100% of the time.
 
Just thought I should point this out, but Gravity cancels Levitate, meaning a Rotom will not be able to switch into Earthquake 100% of the time.

Have you ever actually played against a gravity team? They're rare. Not to mention, a Rotom won't be switching into EQ under Gravity if the player with the Rotom has sense.
 
Would it be feasible to add another layer to the Pokemon by giving it both Static and Flame Body? In both instances, you're expanding the reach of contact abilities, but you choose your poison (no pun intended) as to which status you want to give them.

What if, for example, it could learn Thunder Wave and Will-O-Wisp, but only if it corresponded with the ability, or only if it didn't correspond? (This hasn't been done in Pokemon before, so we wouldn't do it, but it's just a thought.)
 
Would it be feasible to add another layer to the Pokemon by giving it both Static and Flame Body? In both instances, you're expanding the reach of contact abilities, but you choose your poison (no pun intended) as to which status you want to give them.

What if, for example, it could learn Thunder Wave and Will-O-Wisp, but only if it corresponded with the ability, or only if it didn't correspond? (This hasn't been done in Pokemon before, so we wouldn't do it, but it's just a thought.)

It's best to build this pokemon around one specific ability for now, not two. It will be less confusing that way.
 
Just an idea, but I don't know of that many pokemon with Sniper. All I can think of are Kingdra and Drapion, and Kingdra seems to just use Swift Swim anyway. What does everyone say to another Sniper?
 
The Concept Assessment will not be closed until the actual Ability Poll comes around. Please continue to discuss abilities and agree or disagree with those on the current Allowed/Unallowed list.
 
Just an idea, but I don't know of that many pokemon with Sniper. All I can think of are Kingdra and Drapion, and Kingdra seems to just use Swift Swim anyway. What does everyone say to another Sniper?
Don't forget Octillery.
But since Sniper is just a maybe it will work ability, it will be slightly more difficult to work around than something like Mold Breaker.
The Sniper user would need an increase in Critical Hit ratio via attack or item and enough time to actually attack.
 
I'd have to say rough skin
There are no pokes that people use in OU that have it
A physical wall/special wall with it would be a monster
 
@XandZero and Elegy of Emptiness: Sounds like that would require Scope Lens and an nicely sized arsenal of high-crit rate moves.
I can't say that sounds very interesting to me...
 
I think your first sentence is deeply ironic tennis: a 30% chance to completely cripple the opponent's poke? Maybe so, but you can't rely on it happening! Because it has such a low chance of working it simply isn't worth building a pokemon around. Para, burn or poison, is Not completely crippling, it's a severe hindrance but it's not the same as Sleep or Freeze where the opponent literally can't do anything. I recently read a warstory where a Burned Machamp used BU and then did almost 50% damage to a Rotom-c.

You can't rely on anything in Pokemon, unless you knew what the opponent was going to do and what the RNG was going to roll. And also, how do you know it's not worth it? Really, unless you've built a Pokemon around Static, you don't know what it's going to be like or if its worth it. As for your burned Machamp, that's all well and good, but Paralysis has a 1/4 chance to stop the opponent.


Lets also look at OHKO moves as an analogy. Yes it's not perfect since you have to use a moveslot and a turn on them, and there's the cheapness, but the crux of it is that experienced battlers don't want to rely on a 30% chance to OHKO a pokemon because it's Not Reliable. The same principle applies to Static, Flame Body, Poison Point etc.

No, they're banned since you can, on average, defeat a whole team in 18 turns or so. That has nothing to do with Static, which induces a status at a specified rate.

I didn't mention Shield Dust or Mold Breaker in any of my posts, so fail to see how they are relevant. Bit of a straw man.

Those weren't addressed at you specifically, they were addressed at other posts which supported them because they were "reliable".

In a sense, I agree with zarator about vocabulary, you seem to be using a different definition of reliability to the one I have in mind, as I see Levitate as one of the most reliable Abilities in OU.

Levitate Always avoids Ground moves, Spikes and TS, ~100% of the time. It can be relied upon. You can Always switch a Rotom into an EQ (unless vs a Mold Breaker, or under Gravity (thanks X&Z)). You can Always avoid Skarmory's Spikes and threaten it out with Thunderbolt. Levitate has a job, and it never fails.

You're taking all the variables out and playing paper Pokemon here. There is no way that you can, with 100 percent certainty, know the outcome of a specific situation. You can guess that the opponent will use EQ, but unless they're choiced, you won't know for sure.

I fail to see how the same can be said of Static and co. Yes, Levitate only works on Ground moves. It is useless if you're facing a team without Ground moves and/or entry hazards. But how often does that happen? All Abilities have limitations. But the key to reliability is whether or not an Ability can be Relied upon to do what it is supposed to do.

And what Static is supposed to do is have a 30% to Paralyze on contact. I know for certain that 30% of the time, when hit with a contact move, I will paralyze the foe. I can rely on it to do that much.

As for your last point, I fail to see why it can't be allowed if it's so inferior to other abilities. If that's true it'll just lose in the poll. The only abilities that should be unallowed are ones that will clearly break the metagame, eg Drizzle/Drought/Shadow Tag/Magic Guard. The point of CAP is democracy. I don't see why we should arbitrarily limit ourselves just because one person thought it was a great idea.
 
Color Change, it seemes like it could be a lot of funs especially on a tank. The only problem is consistancy....
Indeed. Color Change is overall a very gimicky and unreliable ability. First, you need to be able to come in on whatever attack you think your opponent is about to use, since Color Change doesn't apply until after you've been hit with an attack. If you end up mispredicting, you could wind up really hurt, and taking a lot of damage, or you could wind up being hit with a Ghost or Dragon attack and be hurting next turn. On top of that, there's also Normal, Fighting, and Rock attacks, which don't resist themselves, and thus it wouldn't exactly like mispredcting and coming in on something like Stratagem's Paleo Wave.

There's also the issue of a Color Change Pokemon, due to it's ability, not having any sort of reliable STAB moves. As a result, Color Change can be quite a hindrance to a defensive Pokemon, and there are numerous situations where it would have been better off without it, and have an ability that at least wouldn't have hindered it, such as Shield Dust.

Edti: Tennis, the problem with Static is that, yes, it is true that you can never know for sure what your opponent will do anyway, and how the RNG will roll, and so forth. However, with Static, even if you predict your opponent right and get them into a situation where Static activating is advantageous, there's still no guarantee of it activating. Static is the exact opposite of an ability such as Shield Dust. Whereas Shield Dust prevents some common forms of hax from affecting you, Static is hoping that you will get hax, and that the hax will be of a knd that works in your favor. Unlike an ability such as Levitate (which I know is not neglected; just using it as an example to make a point), which will always do it's job should you predict your opponent right, even if you do predict your opponent perfectly with Static, there's no guarantee that it will activate and be there to help you.

Another example: Sure, the guaranteed confusion on DynamicPunch is nice. But I'm pretty confident that you wouldn't use it on something other than Machamp, as that confusion is simply not worth the accuracy. Why then, would you want to have, or would want to rely on Static, which has a 20% chance less of doing its job than DynamicPunch? Would you not prefer even an ability like Shield Dust over it, which, even though you wouldn't know when it helped you, you would still at least know that it always would have been there when you got haxed, and didn't simply have a 30% chance of stopping the hax? I know I would; the chance of paralyzing my opponent might be nice, but I'd really rather just use a move like T-Wave than rely on Static, since at least with T-wave, I know that should I predict right, my opponent would become paralyzed, whereas with Static, I can't be sure, and I'd really rather avoid relying on luck if at all possible. I would also prefer Stun Spore, even without something like Compoundeyes, to Static; sure, it's not guaranteed, but it still has much more of a chance of doing the job than Static, and can also hit anything that's not immune to paralysis, unlike Static, which can only hurt things that don't have Limber OR that do wind up using a contact move against you.

Although, I suppose you do have a point with them being eligible for the poll regardless; I just feel that they aren't really the best of options, and am a bit concerned that we might get an ability such as Static just due to it looking like this Pokemon could quite likely be part electric, instead of it actually being in the Pokemon's best interest to have it. But again, I suppose that's just guesswork, and should have no effect on whether or not they're included on the poll.
 
I vote skill link.

With Arm Thrust, Bone Rush, Bullet Seed, Icicle Spear, Pin Missile, Rock Blast, and Spike cannon as entirely viable options (maybe not bullet seed so much, but it's in there because I'll get called out if it's not)., I feel like a skill link pokemon better than cloyster could have an interesting niche.

Mold Breaker is cool too, though. I can't see it being as much of a theme as I can see Skill link being, but it's nice and all.
 
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