Wouldn't Skill Link be venturing into Infinite Attack territory?
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CAP 8 CAP 8 - Concept Assessment
- Thread starter cyberzero
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note : the following post has nothing to do with actually what ability to choose but instead the reliability discussion.
We were talking about reliability on IRC when I decided to chime in with my opinion, so I’ll post it here.
<%moi> Do we use Fire Blast because it is 100% reliable?
Obviously not. But that’s because it’s a move, and does more damage then its alternative. But say, if like the OHKO moves it had 30% accuracy, would we use it? No.
That’s because it isn’t reliable on Average which I think is what we are really looking for as a term. Take a look at the strategy of Parafusion, or Paraflinch on pokemon like Jirachi/Togekiss. By definition of “Reliability” stated in previous posts, if it works 100% of the time, it is reliable. It obviously doesn’t, but does that stop it from being used? No. The matter of the fact is that these types of things are reliable on Average.
Is 30% reliable on average? The answer to that is no. Not to say that it isn’t “useful” but if we’re going to be basing a CAP on an ability then the best way to do it would be to find something that is reliable on average. This isn’t to say that the ability has to be effective 100% of the time, but to base a CAP off something like that it would need to be reliable on average (say around 70-90%)
We were talking about reliability on IRC when I decided to chime in with my opinion, so I’ll post it here.
<%moi> Do we use Fire Blast because it is 100% reliable?
Obviously not. But that’s because it’s a move, and does more damage then its alternative. But say, if like the OHKO moves it had 30% accuracy, would we use it? No.
That’s because it isn’t reliable on Average which I think is what we are really looking for as a term. Take a look at the strategy of Parafusion, or Paraflinch on pokemon like Jirachi/Togekiss. By definition of “Reliability” stated in previous posts, if it works 100% of the time, it is reliable. It obviously doesn’t, but does that stop it from being used? No. The matter of the fact is that these types of things are reliable on Average.
Is 30% reliable on average? The answer to that is no. Not to say that it isn’t “useful” but if we’re going to be basing a CAP on an ability then the best way to do it would be to find something that is reliable on average. This isn’t to say that the ability has to be effective 100% of the time, but to base a CAP off something like that it would need to be reliable on average (say around 70-90%)
That would be fine though; the concept is Neglected Ability, and Skill Link can be considered that, and I don't believe would be broken. At least to my knowledge, it doesn't really matter if the picked concept ends up integrating aspects from the other concepts into it.
To all people who would like a bulky user or Static/Flame Body and so on (because if you like Static and co you already want a bulky Pokémon, yeah?^^)
For a wall it would be a good option to give it Forewarn. As a wall or a tank, you will switch into several sweepers, and this ability could give away vital information of some sweepers.
For those who do not remember exactly how it works, Forewarn gives out which is the highest BP move on the opponent Pokèmon set (http://www.smogon.com/dp/abilities/forewarn)
Ok, sometimes you will get an obvious piece of information (hey, Jolteon has Thunderbolt!). but sometimes this ability could give away more interesting things. Now, on to the examples:
1)Blissey. Does it have only Seismic Toss or it has also an elemental beam. Which elemental beam she has, too?
2)Heatran. Does it have Flamethrower or Fire Blast? Does it pack Explosion or not?
3)Stratagem. Is it a Technician variant (Ancientpower) or a Levitate variant (Paleo Wave)? Does it pack Explosion?
4)Gyarados. Does it have Earthquake? Stone Edge?
5)Scizor. Superpower or Brick Break?
And the list goes on. As you can see, there are a number of sweepers and walls which could be better inspected this way. With the proper typing (for example Electric - which by the way is winning the typing poll) and stat spread CAP8 could take on a lot of the above Pokémon and give you the piece of information needed to set up your lategame sweeper.
For a wall it would be a good option to give it Forewarn. As a wall or a tank, you will switch into several sweepers, and this ability could give away vital information of some sweepers.
For those who do not remember exactly how it works, Forewarn gives out which is the highest BP move on the opponent Pokèmon set (http://www.smogon.com/dp/abilities/forewarn)
Ok, sometimes you will get an obvious piece of information (hey, Jolteon has Thunderbolt!). but sometimes this ability could give away more interesting things. Now, on to the examples:
1)Blissey. Does it have only Seismic Toss or it has also an elemental beam. Which elemental beam she has, too?
2)Heatran. Does it have Flamethrower or Fire Blast? Does it pack Explosion or not?
3)Stratagem. Is it a Technician variant (Ancientpower) or a Levitate variant (Paleo Wave)? Does it pack Explosion?
4)Gyarados. Does it have Earthquake? Stone Edge?
5)Scizor. Superpower or Brick Break?
And the list goes on. As you can see, there are a number of sweepers and walls which could be better inspected this way. With the proper typing (for example Electric - which by the way is winning the typing poll) and stat spread CAP8 could take on a lot of the above Pokémon and give you the piece of information needed to set up your lategame sweeper.
The difference between Poison Point, Static, and Flame Body is that while the former confers a useless status effect the latter two give a useful one. If Poison Point gave Toxic status I imagine it would be a lot more common.
In regards to "reliability:" A 30% chance of anything in pokemon is relatively high. Most moves with higher effect chances either have a serous Base Power drawback, imperfect accuracy, rarely receive STAB, or are named Sacred Fire.
If you don't believe so, Allow OHKO moves and I'll go right back to using a Sub/Sheer Cold Lapras, or now that we have it, Sub/Sand Veil Gliscor.
The fact people use Lava Plume and Discharge alone on pokemon with access to a much more powerful Flamethrower, Fire Blast, or Thunderbolt are proof enough. Porygon2 does not have Serene Grace under normal battle conditions, yet it uses Discharge. It is the same with SubTran, Pyroak, and Rotom-A.
You must also consider the application of the ability. U-Turn is a commonly SPAMmed contact attacks that rely on the premise of a "free" switchin + damage and a reliable counter. Switching in a Static user would turn that "free" attack into a 30% chance your Scarfgon or ScarfJirachi fails to outrun 0 Speed Rhyperior next time it comes in. Scizor also regularly SPAMs Bullet Punch and won't appreciate risking its Tyranitar outspeed (standard moveset) to do 20% damage to something. Static basically punishes the use of every physical attack not named Earthquake, Rock Slide, and Stone Edge.
Static is also not comparable to Dynamicpunch or Zap Cannon because it does not result in a missed turn if it fails to activate.
The final thing static does is it gives the project a direction. The highest Base HP/Def of current Static users is 90/75. Much like Sharpedo's dismal defenses make Rough Skin a laughable ability, the problem isn't Static itself but the fact nothing has the prerequisite defensive prowess to abuse it. If Scarfgon deals 16-19% with U-Turn on your switch and paralyzes itself, have you not gotten a much, much better deal than the current best user, Max HP Ampharos' 23-27%? (I don't imagine many Scarfgon run Jolly, I'm assiming Max/Max Adamant here). It also punishes the Scarf/Agility Iron Head/ZH Spamming that seems oh so common these days.
RE: Own Tempo:
Own Tempo would have quite an application on an Outrage, Thrash, or Petal Dance user, preventing your own confusion of yourself.
Shadow Tag may be part of the reason that Wobbuffet/ Wynaut are Uber but not completely. In Wobbuffet's case, he has massive Hp, Shadow Tag, Encore, Counter, Mirror Coat, and some other support options. If Dugtrio had Encore alone he may be Uber. Hopefully, you guys see where I'm comming from. Also I think that this ability will give us some headway in what kind of CAP we are going to create unlike.. "Rough Skin Tank".
I could honestly say that it would certainly make for an interesting CAP all round!
Okay, a LOT of people have been pulling for Drought/Drizzle, so I just thought I'd go into a small bit of detail into why they are broken.
So, let's say we somehow make an ABSOLUTELY TERRIBLE CaP8 with Drought and Drizzle; terrible stats, poor movepool, would be NU material without the abilities. In the case of the former, it comes in, sets up sun, is KO'd, then lets something like Tangrowth or Exeggutor abuse the permanent sun to victory with instant STAB Solarbeam, pseudo-STAB HP Fire, and filler attacks for everything Fire/Grass is walled by; in the case of the latter, something like Kingdra can Swift Swim sweep with the nearly unresisted Water/Dragon type combo and Lanturn could abuse BOTH of its STABs (powered-up Surfs and perfect-hit Thunders). Despite Rock-types getting 50% more Special Defense in SS (which most of said Rock-types deserve *coughnotcoughTTarcoughthocough*), I can see why Sandstream/Snow Warning have not been deemed broken; those two weathers have FAR less team support (other than Sand Veil/Snow Cloak and immunities to the weather itself) than Sun and Rain.
So you see, Groudon and Kyogre are not necessarily Uber because of their stats or movepool (but it surely didn't help the cause); they are Uber for the same reason Wobbuffet is uber; their ABILITIES are the main culprit. With it, all three Pokémon make it impossible (or improbable) to switch in a counter without resorting to the same tactic your opponent is; and if you think about it, isn't that kind of the same reason we banned Garchomp and re-banned Speed Deoxys?
So, let's say we somehow make an ABSOLUTELY TERRIBLE CaP8 with Drought and Drizzle; terrible stats, poor movepool, would be NU material without the abilities. In the case of the former, it comes in, sets up sun, is KO'd, then lets something like Tangrowth or Exeggutor abuse the permanent sun to victory with instant STAB Solarbeam, pseudo-STAB HP Fire, and filler attacks for everything Fire/Grass is walled by; in the case of the latter, something like Kingdra can Swift Swim sweep with the nearly unresisted Water/Dragon type combo and Lanturn could abuse BOTH of its STABs (powered-up Surfs and perfect-hit Thunders). Despite Rock-types getting 50% more Special Defense in SS (which most of said Rock-types deserve *coughnotcoughTTarcoughthocough*), I can see why Sandstream/Snow Warning have not been deemed broken; those two weathers have FAR less team support (other than Sand Veil/Snow Cloak and immunities to the weather itself) than Sun and Rain.
So you see, Groudon and Kyogre are not necessarily Uber because of their stats or movepool (but it surely didn't help the cause); they are Uber for the same reason Wobbuffet is uber; their ABILITIES are the main culprit. With it, all three Pokémon make it impossible (or improbable) to switch in a counter without resorting to the same tactic your opponent is; and if you think about it, isn't that kind of the same reason we banned Garchomp and re-banned Speed Deoxys?
@Numbuh
Please, Please!, don't tell me that the sole reason Kyogre is Uber because of Drizzle. Look at its stats, MovePool, and Type-Ing. Even if Kyogre had the ability Oblivious it would more than likely be Uber. However, this thread is not about Kyogre, it is for CAP8. And I see no reason why Shadow Tag cannot be a option.
Please, Please!, don't tell me that the sole reason Kyogre is Uber because of Drizzle. Look at its stats, MovePool, and Type-Ing. Even if Kyogre had the ability Oblivious it would more than likely be Uber. However, this thread is not about Kyogre, it is for CAP8. And I see no reason why Shadow Tag cannot be a option.
I have an admitted bias against Breloom and other Substitute abusers, so I would'nt mind a Skill Link Pokemon.
Since I submitted a "Sun Abuser" concept, I wouldn't mind having Chlorophyll or Solar Power to keep the idea of a Sunny Day team with more options than just Grass and Fire types.
What I would most like to see is a Scrappy Rapid Spinner, though. He should have a Ghost move too, like Shadow Ball, mitigating the power of entry hazards.
Since I submitted a "Sun Abuser" concept, I wouldn't mind having Chlorophyll or Solar Power to keep the idea of a Sunny Day team with more options than just Grass and Fire types.
What I would most like to see is a Scrappy Rapid Spinner, though. He should have a Ghost move too, like Shadow Ball, mitigating the power of entry hazards.
Okay, let me lay it out for you. The ability to prevent switches immediately upon switching in is one of the most broken things in the game. Look at Dugtrio. His stats are fairly pathetic, minus a good speed, and his movepool isn't much to look at either. However, he is solidly OU just for his ability to trap things.
Look at Magnezone. Decent typing and stats, but weak to three of the most commonly used types, and doubly weak to the most common of those, and his movepool is pretty bad. But again, the ability to trap things makes him solidly OU.
Shadow Tag is better than either of these moves, because rather than being limited to only non-flying/levitating pokemon or only steels, it works on anything that doesn't have Shadow tag itself. We'd be effectively forcing ourselves into a corner with the pokemon. If we gave him any ability to stat up at all, he'd come in on a resist/immunity and set up to +6 (or +6/+6) and sweep through the team. So no statting up. If we give him Encore, then he's Wobbuffet again. The only possible option is to make him simply a trapping revenge killer, in which case we just have a better Dugtrio.
I never said that wasn't the case. However, I am saying that the ability sure doesn't help its plight for competitive balance; have you even seen the havoc a Kyogre can wreak with 337 BP Water Spout backed by base 150 Special Attack (after which [insert Swift Swim user here] can clean up after it)? What's more, Shadow Tag is "not an option" for the same reason; it'd either be: a.) too overpowered or b.) just a better Dugtrio; not very "creative," is it?
However, I don't see why a future CaP can't be a TEMPORARY sun/rain starter. So, if someone could enlighten me on how simply not needing a moveslot for Sunny Day/Rain Dance is inherently broken in SINGLES (which is all Shoddy can do at this point)... I'll gladly retract my support for it.
I suppose that extra moveslot could make or break a game.
you realize that would require us to make a new ability in a CaP that is going to be based on UNDER-USED abilities rather than non-existant ones, right?
Anticipation. That's a huge neglected ability. Only 5 Pokemon carrying it, and they're all UU.
We tested auto Rain and Sun a long time ago. It was broken. Why have people even discussed this?
No. Shadow Tag is a whack ability; even Wynaut is uber because of it. There's no way we can reasonably give it to something else. Give it to a sweeper and you have auto-set up. Give it to a tank and it cannot be countered. What exactly are you expecting to make?
Luvdisc would be Uber if it had Drizzle. So in a sense, yes.
Well, what's left? I always assumed that the reason Wobuffet was too strong was because of its Shadow Tag; in GSC, it was UU, because it had no way of forcing enemies to attack, and lacked Encore to make sure if anything worked. If Wobuffet had lacked Encore, it just might have been alright for OU, because you still had no way to counter stat uppers.
Darn it, I was hoping for a pseudo Drought/Drizzle. But I suppose I'm convinced that auto-rain would be too strong/centralizing..
Forewarn .. I just don't know. The poke that had it would need to be a decent wall, but then, it wouldn't be able to do anything with that new knowledge. It seems to fit a bit more closely to Kitsunoh's theme of an ultimate scout. While it would be nice to know whether Heatran has Explosion, it just doesn't seem necessaryto use a neglected ability as a way to figure out specifically which set your opponent's running.
If a CAP had Mold Breaker, it certainly wouldn't be a ground type, would it? I feel that it brings something a bit similar to Tinted Lens; just slap on a Choice item, click your STAB, and proceed to sweep. This also more or less applies to Rock Head, which lets you use a lot stronger moves with no penalty.
I would still like to see a Trace user/abuser. Gardevoir and Porygon2 are currently the only 2 Pokemon that can use it, and neither one excels at the role spectacularly. Porygon2 is very nice, but something that can fully use Trace to its advantage would be great; fantastic move-pool, passable stats, but with the ability to take on a plethora of roles depending on the ability it "steals."
From the way the typing poll's going, looks like Electric's got it. Wouldn't a recoil-less Volt Tackle be nice?
Darn it, I was hoping for a pseudo Drought/Drizzle. But I suppose I'm convinced that auto-rain would be too strong/centralizing..
Forewarn .. I just don't know. The poke that had it would need to be a decent wall, but then, it wouldn't be able to do anything with that new knowledge. It seems to fit a bit more closely to Kitsunoh's theme of an ultimate scout. While it would be nice to know whether Heatran has Explosion, it just doesn't seem necessaryto use a neglected ability as a way to figure out specifically which set your opponent's running.
If a CAP had Mold Breaker, it certainly wouldn't be a ground type, would it? I feel that it brings something a bit similar to Tinted Lens; just slap on a Choice item, click your STAB, and proceed to sweep. This also more or less applies to Rock Head, which lets you use a lot stronger moves with no penalty.
I would still like to see a Trace user/abuser. Gardevoir and Porygon2 are currently the only 2 Pokemon that can use it, and neither one excels at the role spectacularly. Porygon2 is very nice, but something that can fully use Trace to its advantage would be great; fantastic move-pool, passable stats, but with the ability to take on a plethora of roles depending on the ability it "steals."
From the way the typing poll's going, looks like Electric's got it. Wouldn't a recoil-less Volt Tackle be nice?
In GCS wobb was UU because it didn't have shadow tag.
But that's not the point. Cyberzero, it says the typing, stat spread, and art submissions will come before the actual ability; does this mean that the ability itself will arise naturally from what the poke looks and acts like?
Actually, according to the Order of Events, only typing and bias will come before the ability. Art is flavor and really doesn't mean much for the actual ability. Bias just decides if we're making an offensive or defensive Pokemon while Typing is self explanatory. The typing and bias will choose the ability, the plan is not to have an ability in mind when choosing the typing and bias. The Stat Spread submissions will be opened alongside the Ability discussion, which would mean that the spreads could reflect whatever the Ability discussion is leaning towards. The bias will already have been picked.
My suggestions, grouped by offensive/defensive and overall.
Offensive Suggestions:
Rock Head: By their nature, moves that cause recoil are powerful. This would be a very versatile ability seeing as you could employ moves like Flare Blitz, Submission, and (the likely STABbed) Volt Tackle without a downside. Lots of Pokemon have this ability, but none are good enough to pull it off effectively.
Mold Breaker: Poison is resisted by Steel, which negates useful moves like Toxic Spikes and Toxic. Electric is resisted by Ground, making for easy switch ins. Ground by Flying, Psychic by Dark etc. How great it would be to bypass these, and with this ability you can. Unfortunately, only Cranidos/Rampardos and Pinsir have it.
Skill Link: Let's face it, multi hit attacks suck. Unless of course, you have this ability, then they can be useful. How suiting it would be to not only have a neglected ability but a pokemon that can effectively use a neglected family of skills.
Defensive Suggestions:
Rough Skin: Couple this ability with a pokemon that can actually take hits and you have a must have for stall teams. 1/16th of health in recoil against contact hits on a physical wall would have a devastating effect.
Overall Suggestions:
Static: Seeing as it's basically guaranteed that we're getting an Electric CAP, why not giving one of the most fitting abilities for this type? Paralysis is one of the most useful status ailments with a chance to disable and speed loss, and this lets you abuse that while keeping powerful moves.
Shield Dust: Who couldn't love an ability that prevents Flinch, Freeze and all sorts of inopportune hax that could ruin a battle for you? Too bad that the only pokemon with this ability are Venomoth and Dustox, who once again don't have the stats to back it up.
Offensive Suggestions:
Rock Head: By their nature, moves that cause recoil are powerful. This would be a very versatile ability seeing as you could employ moves like Flare Blitz, Submission, and (the likely STABbed) Volt Tackle without a downside. Lots of Pokemon have this ability, but none are good enough to pull it off effectively.
Mold Breaker: Poison is resisted by Steel, which negates useful moves like Toxic Spikes and Toxic. Electric is resisted by Ground, making for easy switch ins. Ground by Flying, Psychic by Dark etc. How great it would be to bypass these, and with this ability you can. Unfortunately, only Cranidos/Rampardos and Pinsir have it.
Skill Link: Let's face it, multi hit attacks suck. Unless of course, you have this ability, then they can be useful. How suiting it would be to not only have a neglected ability but a pokemon that can effectively use a neglected family of skills.
Defensive Suggestions:
Rough Skin: Couple this ability with a pokemon that can actually take hits and you have a must have for stall teams. 1/16th of health in recoil against contact hits on a physical wall would have a devastating effect.
Overall Suggestions:
Static: Seeing as it's basically guaranteed that we're getting an Electric CAP, why not giving one of the most fitting abilities for this type? Paralysis is one of the most useful status ailments with a chance to disable and speed loss, and this lets you abuse that while keeping powerful moves.
Shield Dust: Who couldn't love an ability that prevents Flinch, Freeze and all sorts of inopportune hax that could ruin a battle for you? Too bad that the only pokemon with this ability are Venomoth and Dustox, who once again don't have the stats to back it up.
I really think we should avoid using "signature abilities". By which I mean things like Color Change and Iron Fist. They're kind of reserved to be for just their current user. I know most of you probably don't really care, but, it kind of alienates some "principle" of some sort.
...Eh. =/
Magic Guard, I guess Maybe we could make something with a Stealth Rock weakness (though with Electric apparently dominating the Type Poll, unless we give it a type that's weak as a 2nd type, it wont be used to full effect) but with Magic Guard, has no reason to fear it.
Shield Dust as well seems interesting. Static[/n] may be easily implemented with the inevitable Electric typing.
...Eh. =/
Magic Guard, I guess Maybe we could make something with a Stealth Rock weakness (though with Electric apparently dominating the Type Poll, unless we give it a type that's weak as a 2nd type, it wont be used to full effect) but with Magic Guard, has no reason to fear it.
Shield Dust as well seems interesting. Static[/n] may be easily implemented with the inevitable Electric typing.
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