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CAP 8 CAP 8 - Concept Assessment

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cyberzero said:
Pyroak makes amazing use of Rock Head thanks to Flare Blitz AND Wood Hammer, making two 120 BP STAB moves with 100% coming out with no recoil. It's not going to be Allowed because we've already seen the effects of this Pokemon with Pyroak.
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I'm a bit confused with this though. Yes, that's true that it has Rock Head and those moves, however, they're not the best option on Pyroak. The recoil moves are physical, and Pyroak's mediocre 70 Atk doesn't really make using them a good option, especially when it has a base 95 Special Attack stat to work with, which pretty much leaves special attacking and selecting Battle Armor as the better options; the extra damage of those moves just don't make up for Pyroak's vastly inferior attack stat.

The latest statistics also reflect this, with only 10% of Pyroak having used Rock Head, and a similar number having used Flare Blitz and Wood Hammer. Pyroak simply isn't made to be using Rock Head, as it has better things to do, meaning we haven't actually gotten to see the effects of Rock Head through it.

The problem I have with this being true is of course that you allowed Air Lock/Cloud Nine, despite Revenankh having it, because it was the inferior option on Revenankh, whereas now you're making Rock Head unallowed, just because Pyroak has it, despite it being the vastly inferior option on it. So, I would like some more clarity and consistency on this, because right now, your reasoning just has me being a bit confused.
 
Yeah, I honestly think we should go with Quick Feet. It's not easy to abuse (as long as we don't make it too fast), and it's badly underrated 'cause the extra speed and status absorption could make/break a game. Plus it'll give us a break from adding a Choice Scarf to outspeed faster opponents, which I never liked doing to be honest.
 
Smokingpaper said:
Did you realize Petal dance and Thrash only have 90 base power? Return is better than thrash in every way. Grass Knot/energy ball are almost as/often more powerful than PD without any drawbacks.

In short: giving CAP8 Return and Grass Knot/Energy Ball would probably be better than what you are proposing.
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I don't want them to do that, that's the thing. I don't want them to make another fatigue move, seeing as their downfalls outweigh their power even without confusion.
 
Naxte said:
The problem I have with this being true is of course that you allowed Air Lock/Cloud Nine, despite Revenankh having it, because it was the inferior option on Revenankh, wheeras now you're making Rock Head unallowed, just because Pyroak has it, despite it being the vastly inferior option on it. So, I would like some more clarity and consistency on this, because right now, your reasoning just has me being a bit confused.
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Thanks for that, I appreciate you looking into that. It'll be changed immediately!
 
Personally, I'd love to see an auto-weather ability that isn't sandstream or snow warning, like drizzle or drought. They aren't rejected in the same way as something like Quick Feet, but they are rejected because there are no pokemon in standard that can use them.
 
y2zipper said:
Personally, I'd love to see an auto-weather ability that isn't sandstream or snow warning, like drizzle or drought. They aren't rejected in the same way as something like Quick Feet, but they are rejected because there are no pokemon in standard that can use them.
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That is not why they're rejected, they are rejected because we already tested them. After VERY extensive weather testing on the CAP server, we have deemed auto-rain and auto-sun as overcentralizing and therefore, it will NOT be allowed.
 
Naxte said:
The problem I have with this being true is of course that you allowed Air Lock/Cloud Nine, despite Revenankh having it, because it was the inferior option on Revenankh, whereas now you're making Rock Head unallowed, just because Pyroak has it, despite it being the vastly inferior option on it. So, I would like some more clarity and consistency on this, because right now, your reasoning just has me being a bit confused.
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cyberzero said:
Thanks for that, I appreciate you looking into that. It'll be changed immediately!
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In that vein cyber, what about Static and Poison Point. One is currently allowed, one is currently unallowed, when they both cause a permanent status with a 30% chance.

I have extensively argued the case Against allowing Static and Flame Body and Poison Point. Fair enough if you feel my reasoning isn't strong enough, but at least be consistent with their placing.

Edit: I am calm, and not remotely tetchy. Just reminding cyber since I said it in a previous post that must have gotten lost since this thread is moving so fast. I know cyber is busy and innundated with PMs etc. I think he's doing a great job, and have already told him so.
 
@JA et al.

I don't see why there should be any abilities which fit the neglected criteria and aren't completely broken that are unallowed. If they don't fit your "reliability criteria" fine, but that isn't official by any means. I do agree that it's a good measure to take into account when voting, but theres no reason to make perfectly viable abilities unallowed on some arbitrary limitation. If they don't fit your ideal criteria, don't vote for them in the poll. Allowed/Unallowed should only serve for those abilites who either are completely broken (Drizzle/Drought, and possibly Shadow Tag), or are not neglected (Levitate, Intimidate, ect). Give me one good reason why you shouldn't allow Static/Poison Point/Flame Body. They aren't broken. They aren't that good, so how would it harm you to let them on the initial poll. If they're as bad as you say they are, they won't make it past the first poll anyway. Or do you not trust the voters to vote the best choice, in which case, CAP is a democracy and majority rules no matter if they're right or wrong. Your job isn't to disallow inferior candidates, just illegal ones. You can argue against inferior candidates, which is what you've been doing, and I commend you for that. However, you have no justification to completely exclude them. As a parting example, Ralph Nader is never going to win, however they let him on the ballot just the same.
 
This is just my two-cents

Mold Breaker and Trace

There are only two users of both of these abilities. Rampardos and Pinsir for the former and Gardevoir and Porygon2 for the latter. These are both extremely useful but rare abilities. Hitting Levitators with Earthquake/Earth Power or getting in free on Scarfed Fire Blast Heatran can change the game around. Skill Link and Rough Skin are two signature moves belonging to only Cloyster and Sharpedo. Neither of the two can exploit these abilities to the fullest. Cloyster is decent at using it but its really a lackluster pokemon. Sharpedo has paper defenses, 40 appart, and its dies quickly unable to use its ability to the fullest.
 
jagged_angel said:
I have extensively argued the case Against allowing Static and Flame Body and Poison Point. Fair enough if you feel my reasoning isn't strong enough, but at least be consistent with their placing.
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how about the fact that the two that are allowed give great status conditions, but the other one gives just the standard poison, as opposed to the toxic variety, making it horrible in comparison.
 
tennisace said:
@JA et al.

I don't see why there should be any abilities which fit the neglected criteria and aren't completely broken that are unallowed. If they don't fit your "reliability criteria" fine, but that isn't official by any means. I do agree that it's a good measure to take into account when voting, but theres no reason to make perfectly viable abilities unallowed on some arbitrary limitation. If they don't fit your ideal criteria, don't vote for them in the poll. Allowed/Unallowed should only serve for those abilites who either are completely broken (Drizzle/Drought, and possibly Shadow Tag), or are not neglected (Levitate, Intimidate, ect). Give me one good reason why you shouldn't allow Static/Poison Point/Flame Body. They aren't broken. They aren't that good, so how would it harm you to let them on the initial poll. If they're as bad as you say they are, they won't make it past the first poll anyway. Or do you not trust the voters to vote the best choice, in which case, CAP is a democracy and majority rules no matter if they're right or wrong. Your job isn't to disallow inferior candidates, just illegal ones. You can argue against inferior candidates, which is what you've been doing, and I commend you for that. However, you have no justification to completely exclude them. As a parting example, Ralph Nader is never going to win, however they let him on the ballot just the same.
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I didn't say anything about not allowing them all in that post since cyber'd already told me he was going to allow Static. I was merely asking him to be consistent. I don't make the decisions, I can only argue that they are inferior as you say.
I hope the community will not vote for an inferior Ability but as we've seen in the past, flavour considerations play a large role in drive by voters' decisions. From a competitive standpoint, the Electric type has nothing to do with Static, but I fear that people voting on flavour may be swayed toward Static if Electric wins. Whatever happens, I accept the TL's decision.

ferron said:
how about the fact that the two that are allowed give great status conditions, but the other one gives just the standard poison, as opposed to the toxic variety, making it horrible in comparison.
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Well if Flame Body is as great as you say, shouldn't It be on the Allowed list? But currently, one is allowed, one is unallowed and one isn't even on the list.
The only advantage Burn has over Poison is against Physical sweepers - against Special sweepers and Walls the effect of the two is the same - there is a difference but it's not huge. Then there are pokemon that don't particularly mind paralysis, but hate to be poisoned or burned, making Flame Body even better than Static at discouraging Physical attacks.

That's all ephemerata, I wasn't arguing the benefits of those abilities vs one another - they're all Very unreliable and we could do far better. My goal was only to achieve consistency in making the Allowed List.
 
Since Electric seems to be winning the Type poll, I think Wonder Guard should be put into the unallowed list. Even if we get Rock as the secondary type, (the maximum amount of weaknesses when combined with electric) that's still 12 immunities. Only taking damage from Fighting, Grass, Ground, Steel, and Water is just too overpowered in my opinion.
 
jagged_angel said:
That's all ephemerata, I wasn't arguing the benefits of those abilities vs one another - they're all Very unreliable and we could do far better. My goal was only to achieve consistency in making the Allowed List.
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I am currently just looking through the thread and whenever there is a mention of an Ability, I read through the description. When I edit the list, I don't look for the consistencies of Static and Poison Point, etc, because if I see a convincing argument for it to be on, I put it on. If someone brings up Static, I will add it but not make the connection to Poison Point because that wasn't in the particular post.
Lightning Storm said:
Since Electric seems to be winning the Type poll, I think Wonder Guard should be put into the unallowed list. Even if we get Rock as the secondary type, (the maximum amount of weaknesses when combined with electric) that's still 12 immunities. Only taking damage from Fighting, Grass, Ground, Steel, and Water is just too overpowered in my opinion.
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Alright, that is good enough reasoning to say that Wonder Guard is officially Unallowed.
 
Lightning Storm said:
Since Electric seems to be winning the Type poll, I think Wonder Guard should be put into the unallowed list. Even if we get Rock as the secondary type, (the maximum amount of weaknesses when combined with electric) that's still 12 immunities. Only taking damage from Fighting, Grass, Ground, Steel, and Water is just too overpowered in my opinion.
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Electric/Rock wouldn't even take damage from steel...
 
Well.... I really like these:

Mold breaker- Well, I think that things like this are really cool because not only does it (I think) includes abilities like scrappy in it's ability, it also allows for tons of possibilties, you can hit pokemon with moves that they were never expecting to be hit with.

Magic guard-Like moldbreaker, this also overshadows another ability(RockHead) (I think) because it allows you not to take direct damage Hint hint recoil? It also allows you to be free of random effects and things like stealth rock which could make things like elec/ice more plausible.

If I was wrong about something please tell me cause I'm not positive of how those abilities work and I'm kinda new.
 
I'd like to raise attention to the following abilities, not because they may be directly useful right away, but with a concept like this, being able to think of unorthodox ways of using them may become useful later: Aftermath, Anger Point, and Filter.
 
Hydration... Useful on a Pokemon that can heal and set-up. Ruined by the common weather-changers in OU, especially if they switch in on Rest.

Also, Soundproof doesn't seem so bad with all the Roar users (Swampert, Suicune, etc.)
 
I just thought of "Flower Gift". If this is a Grass or Fire type, it could be a really interesting Ability, and gain the same benefits Rock types get in the Sandstorm, in addition to an attack boost.

With the need for strong Sunny Day sweepers and set-uppers, in OU, Flower Gift provides both Bulk and Power and since it uses weather, the Pokemon doesn't necessarily have to be that powerful prior to setting up weather.

Flower Gift just seems like a balanced ability to go with such an Underrated tactic (Sunny Day teams).
 
Flower Gift sounds decent. It's arguably better than Solar Power which is currently allowed, however I wouldn't support them unless we settle on Electric/Grass or Electric/Fire.

I would like to add Suction Cups and Synchronise.
Both of these are pretty good neglected defensive Abilities. They aren't on any OU pokemon.
They both have strong benefits to defensive strategies - Synchronise can be utilised very well with Refresh and Suction Cups can be utilised to stat up to the user's content. It also makes for a very good Baton Pass recipient.

I'd say Suction Cups in particular is powerful enough for us to build a pokemon around.
 
flower gift only helps the partner...and synchronize is on alakazam, which i believe is ou at the moment...just because it prefers inner focus doesn't make it incapable of carrying and using synchronize. synchronize isnt used because it isnt really useful...you have to take status....thats not a strong point to build a pokemon on.

and i like the idea of suction cups. maybe a defensive stat upper that only leaves when it wants to? or even offensive, but that'd be a bit trickier...
 
Flower Gift helps the user out too, but the problem is that it boosts regular Attack, which is kinda bad on grass types.

And again, just because an OU pokemon has the ability does not mean it's not neglected.
 
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