CAP 9 CAP 9 - Concept Assessment

[Mattman324]

I'm using Moi's list, and seeing if we REALLY need a counter to these, and what CAN counter them.

Sleep: Varios abilities (Shed Skin, Vital Spirit), and Sleep Talk.
Poison: Poison or Steel typing, Varios abilities (Shed Skin, Immunity)
Paralysis: Ground typing (only to an extent), Varios abilities.
Confusion: Switching.
Attract: Genderless pokemon, but do we really NEED an attract counter?
Burn: Fire types, various abilities.
Freeze: Ice typing, Sacred Fire, Flame Wheel. And, of course, Freeze clause.
Stealth Rocks: Rapid Spin, rock resist (but that doesn't "counter")
Spikes: Rapid Spin, ground immunity.
Toxic Spikes: See: Poison, and add Rapid Spin.
Weather Conditions (Hail, Sandstorm, Rain, Sun): Ground/Rock/Steel type for SS, Ice type for hail, varieos abilities for both.
Gravity: THIS DOESN'T NEED A COUNTER! It's hard pressed as it is!
Trick Room: Trick room, but see above.
Trick: Vareous abilities, Taunt.
Taunt: Having no defensive moves, other Taunts.
Encore: Switching.
Leech Seed: Grass typing. Still, with Shaymin S in Ubers, only Pyroak and Celebi are left as decent Leech Seed users (and, of course, Sceptile.)


So if we counter:

• Most status (aside from Freeze and the evil [things like Confusion and Attract, Leech Seed and Nightmare] side effects.)
• Spikes and Stealth Rocks (with the Steels, T-Spikes are unimportant)
• Sandstorm.
• Trick, Taunt and Encore.

Then we should be good. Heck, we could get away with countering 3 of those four bullets and still be alright.

 

[Korski]

I imagine this pokemon being a fast, defensive team supporter that can be tailored to deal with whatever secondary moves hinder your team. Got yourself a stall team? CaP9 has a set that deals perfectly with Trick and Taunt. Bulky offense? CaP9 is one of the best spinners out there. Pure offense? CaP9 has a set that takes status like nobody's business. It can be tailored to block whatever secondary moves hinder your team, whatever your team may be, basically.

In order to do this, CaP9 should be a relatively safe switch-in to a variety of pokemon (think: Blissey) if it's going to effectively "stop" something that isn't necessarily coming every time (not all Celebis run T-Wave, and I'm sure many won't with this guy running around). It should also try and avoid being set-up bait, and shouldn't be afraid to use secondary moves itself (not all CaP9s will be able to counter every CaP9 set, so it would involve some strategy).

And I will stress that I think a pokemon like this will need speed. Lots of it. I'm thinking base 131 to run the fastest Taunt or Subs in OU (why are so many people against or at least trivializing this awesome quality?) That will help it cover more ground. It can also speedily Baton Pass its subs, thus helping protect teammates from secondary attacks and damaging attacks as well as itself.

Those are my thoughts for now. Will comment again after seeing what everyone else says.

 

[Walvren]

So if we counter:

• Most status (aside from Freeze and the evil [things like Confusion and Attract, Leech Seed and Nightmare] side effects.)
• Spikes and Stealth Rocks (with the Steels, T-Spikes are unimportant)
• Sandstorm.
• Trick, Taunt and Encore.

Then we should be good. Heck, we could get away with countering 3 of those four bullets and still be alright.

But don't you think countering 3 of those 4 at once looks extremely arbitrary? Let's think about it. Do we NEED it to do all those things? I think we're all just trying to stave of these moves just for the sake of it. We need to make the concept a little sharper.

 

[Elegy]

EDIT: About Multitype, I'm a bit skeptical. If we go with the standard "must-have" TMs and tutor moves (All Ice Pokémon get Ice Beam/Blizzard, all Dragon Pokémon get Draco Meteor etc), this thing would get a out-of-the-wazoo movepool - much larger than every CAP we ever created, maybe larger than everything else in OU. I can see the possible benefits (neat way to counter Trick and yet retain versatility), but I also definitely see a possible issue.

I don't think a huge movepool will be an issue. You see, a Pokemon with Multitype doesn't change its type until it hits the stage. Based on its original typing, we can add in the garanteed moves. I personally think that Multitype would work just fine as an answer to Trick, Weather, Entry Hazards, etc. and won't deter what will come of its other qualities.

 

[viol and bass]

I imagine this pokemon being a fast, defensive team supporter that can be tailored to deal with whatever secondary moves hinder your team. Got yourself a stall team? CaP9 has a set that deals perfectly with Trick and Taunt. Bulky offense? CaP9 is one of the best spinners out there. Pure offense? CaP9 has a set that takes status like nobody's business. It can be tailored to block whatever secondary moves hinder your team, whatever your team may be, basically.

In order to do this, CaP9 should be a relatively safe switch-in to a variety of pokemon (think: Blissey) if it's going to effectively "stop" something that isn't necessarily coming every time (not all Celebis run T-Wave, and I'm sure many won't with this guy running around). It should also try and avoid being set-up bait, and shouldn't be afraid to use secondary moves itself (not all CaP9s will be able to counter every CaP9 set, so it would involve some strategy).

And I will stress that I think a pokemon like this will need speed. Lots of it. I'm thinking base 131 to run the fastest Taunt or Subs in OU (why are so many people against or at least trivializing this awesome quality?) That will help it cover more ground. It can also speedily Baton Pass its subs, thus helping protect teammates from secondary attacks and damaging attacks as well as itself.

Those are my thoughts for now. Will comment again after seeing what everyone else says.

How can you possibly expect one pokémon to be so incredibly versatile, extremely fast, AND defensive, and not centralize the metagame around it? I think it's unreasonable to expect it to be able to do everything.

 

[Walvren]

How can you possibly expect one pokémon to be so incredibly versatile, extremely fast, AND defensive, and not centralize the metagame around it? I think it's unreasonable to expect it to be able to do everything.

And there vindicates my argument. Please not NOT go overboard. We all know that secondary moves are just too much for any one pokemon. We have to deal with a smaller scope.

 

[Matthew]

I would just like to point out that if you are considering multitype as an ability that would work for this CAP, you have to also realize that this pokemon will not be able to have a secondary typing if multitype is to be chosen. Take this as you want, whether it is a good or bad thing is completely up to you.

 

[Walvren]

I would just like to point out that if you are considering multitype as an ability that would work for this CAP, you have to also realize that this pokemon will not be able to have a secondary typing if multitype is to be chosen. Take this as you want, whether it is a good or bad thing is completely up to you.

Multitype is just a way to circumvent Trick/Switcheroo. If you want it, we'll have to be prepared for the versatility. But I think it's too specialised for Trick and the whole type changing thing is a bit of a double edged blade.

In short, don't ask for multitytpe...

 

[Matthew]

Multitype is just a way to circumvent Trick/Switcheroo. If you want it, we'll have to be prepared for the versatility. But I think it's too specialised for Trick and the whole type changing thing is a bit of a double edged blade.

In short, don't ask for multitytpe...

If it fits the concept (to a degree) then it should be included; along with the fact that many people do in fact seem interested in the idea of it. I wasn't preaching "we have to do multitype" I was merely giving a limiting factor people must consider if they choose to go the route if it.

 

[Korski]

Fidgit can run any kind of utility move. It can do everything, just not all at once. What it does do, however, is get the right kind of utility moves out there to benefit its team.

Originally Posted by FatmoiQuestions to be Answered:
~ How easily would a Pokémon with such large of a niche be able to fit into a competitive team?

Is it really too hard to make a pokemon that stops the secondary effects that hinder its team? We can make CaP9 stop close to all secondary attacks. What we can't do is make it do all those things at once. I'm not suggesting that. Yes, according to my post, this CaP would be versatile, but it would hardly be doing everything possible in one set. Typing/Abilities and a fast Taunter/Subber would take out a lot of secondary attacks. Baton Pass could allow it to keep good defensive stats without being setup fodder. There are plenty of options.

 

[Walvren]

If it fits the concept (to a degree) then it should be included; along with the fact that many people do in fact seem interested in the idea of it. I wasn't preaching "we have to do multitype" I was merely giving a limiting factor people must consider if they choose to go the route if it.

I know you weren't preaching. I was quoting you to use your argument in my argument. Sorry if you thought I was criticising you...

But still, the whole multitype thing doesn't quite give us the coverage I'd like. Another ability would allow us more immunities because we can get more from dual typing (Grass/Steel with Flash Fire for instance).

 

[Gooey Kablooie]

I would just like to point out that if you are considering multitype as an ability that would work for this CAP, you have to also realize that this pokemon will not be able to have a secondary typing if multitype is to be chosen. Take this as you want, whether it is a good or bad thing is completely up to you.

In theory you still could have a second typing. You could also have another ability alongside multitype on the same poke. It could work quite well too, but again, all in theory though.


"In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is."

 

[Zuukishou]

• What are common secondary moves in today's metagame?
• Common secondary moves would be weather inducing, status (Will-o-Wisp, Toxic, Spore, SR, Spikes, T-Spikes, (Does Whirlwind, Switch moves count?) etc)

• What does it mean to "Stop the Secondary"?
• Maybe stop the above moves from working with a unique typing, ability, or Rapid Spin (possibly?)

• What are the possibilities of this CAP? (Try not to poll jump too much here)
• It will bring back Stall Play for those who like stall, meaning that many pokemon, such as Skarmory who relies on secondary (spikes), may become useless...

• How are immunities used in the current metagame? How can we apply that knowledge to this project?
• Immunities are used for Rapid Spin Blockage, Ubers (Giratina-O w/ Levitate, Ghost Typing), and of course, to stop Choice FP, EQ, and others.

• What do we gain from an immunity pokemon?
• We gain from an immunity pokemon, an extra team slot on the roster in the place of Blissey or Skarmory, or even Regice (in 200)

 

[Solstice]

In theory you still could have a second typing. You could also have another ability alongside multitype on the same poke. It could work quite well too, but again, all in theory though.


"In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is."

I don't see that working, would one type always be dominant over the other? So the Pokemon is Normal-Water, and we always get rid of normal?

Im opposed to Multitype, I find the cons outweigh the pros, to show it I;ve made a quick list.

Pros

Unpredictability
Ability to design the poke to cover certain areas
Opens many opportunitys
Blocks Trick

Cons

Difficulty building a stable movepool
No possibilty for a dual typing
Difficulty building stats that work with the possibilities, Example, High special attack necessary for Fire version, but Ground version needs high attack
Trick Blocking can be achieving through other abilities
Decision if the Pokemons sprite will change with type, if no, could be broken if you have to guess the typing, if yes, more work for spriters
Will need more team support than the concept says, if its designed to take paralysis, it could leave a hole open for Toxic users, which requires a steel/posion type, but if it was Fire-Steel it covers both.

 

[Naxte]

I don't see that working, would one type always be dominant over the other? So the Pokemon is Normal-Water, and we always get rid of normal?

A Pokemon can have Multitype and be dual-typed when not holding a Plate, I believe. Otherwise, when a Plate is held, Multitype overrides the secondary type and the Pokemon becomes purely the type of the plate.

And of course as said, a second ability choice also gets around that problem.

 

[Zuukishou]

Arceus becomes the typing, but it's a normal only anyways. Does any other pokemon have Multitype at all? Also, does Multitype even block Trick, it should just change the items still right? making the multityped pokemon lose w.e. :P

 

[Matthew]

Cons

Difficulty building a stable movepool

I don't see how it will be difficult building a stable move pool, the pokemon will start off with a specific typing that can change, we don't base it around what it can become, we base it around what it is at the start of the match.

No possibilty for a dual typing

This is not a negative thing, this is a neutral thing that shouldn't be used in the con section

Difficulty building stats that work with the possibilities, Example, High special attack necessary for Fire version, but Ground version needs high attack

Or you know, we could base it around the original typing of the pokemon, like I already stated. This isn't "we must have a pokemon that learns everything" this is a pokemon can become any type, but not all types will be beneficiary.

Trick Blocking can be achieving through other abilities

and those abilities only block trick.

Decision if the Pokemons sprite will change with type, if no, could be broken if you have to guess the typing, if yes, more work for spriters

easy fix, upon entering the battle, there could be text saying "Spiffy transformed into the Fire-type!" and that is that. No harm on the artists, easy fix.

Arceus becomes the typing, but it's a normal only anyways. Does any other pokemon have Multitype at all? Also, does Multitype even block Trick, it should just change the items still right? making the multityped pokemon lose w.e. :P

Does any pokemon besides Bibarel have Unaware? I don't see where you are coming from. Cap has made moves and abilities, what is to stop us from allowing this simple because "A single pokemon has it." Also no if you read the move description of Multitype it says:

Arceus changes its type on switching in depending on the plate held—each plate corresponds to a different type. Further, this ability makes Knock Off, Thief, and any other method of item stealing / destroying ineffective. This ability is not affected by Skill Swap, Role Play, and it cannot be Traced.

http://www.smogon.com/dp/abilities/multitype

 

[HD]

I believe the best option for this concept would be an offensive pokemon. Depending on the ability/typing/etc... this pokemon would be able to take common status (Paralysis, Poison, Burn and Sleep), allowing far greater switch-ins than a pokemon like say Infernape; who while immune to Burn, is crippled by the other stauses (mostly Paralysis, however Sleep allows better revenge killing and and Poison lowers life acceptancy). Immunity to these types allow easy switch-ins to the usual carriers (Heatran, Blissey etc...) and set-up time or the start of the sweep.

However, a defensive pokemon with this concept may work, though I believe an offensive version would work much better with the advantages given. A defensive pokemon immune to Toxic (and Toxic Spikes) HAS much greater life(though it must watch out for lol Pin Needle, the only move that causes Poison while is not a Poison type move). But I believe a defensive version would be genarlly outclassed by Fidget, who has Rapid Spin for Spikes and Stealth Rock, immunity to Toxic and Paralysis ( as long as Paralyze Powder/Pin Needle is not used) and absorbs Toxic Spikes on the switch. Fidget is also fast enough to not care about Trick/Encorers.

 

[Elegy]

Cons

Difficulty building a stable movepool
yes
No possibilty for a dual typing
Dual typing is possible, same reason why Mothim is able to use Camoflage.
Difficulty building stats that work with the possibilities, Example, High special attack necessary for Fire version, but Ground version needs high attack
Why would it need high attack/special attack if its purpose is to stop secondary moves?
Trick Blocking can be achieving through other abilities
yes
Decision if the Pokemons sprite will change with type, if no, could be broken if you have to guess the typing, if yes, more work for spriters
The log announces "CAP9 became X-type!" as it switches in, extra sprites are not necessary.
Will need more team support than the concept says, if its designed to take paralysis, it could leave a hole open for Toxic users, which requires a steel/posion type, but if it was Fire-Steel it covers both.
With Multitype, the status problems are blocked as you wish, since you decide what type this Pokemon is.

All i'm trying to do is shed some light. With Multitype, CAP9 literally becomes a stopper to status's (except sleep), gets immunities to harmful weather, can immune itself to spikes and toxic spikes, resist SR, and stop Trick.
Or maybe Multitype provides so many options its not even viable?

EDIT: beat by Gen. Empoleon, you get my point anyways.

 

[zach the great]

The sad part about Multitype is that it doesn't block Knock Off on Shoddy. This "glitch" could make this Pokemon easily counterable with Knock Off.

 

[Gooey Kablooie]

All I'm saying is this pokemon could be grass/steel and it could have multitype/flash fire.

I'm merely throwing these types and abilities off the top of my head; they have no real relevance.

All I'm saying is we could.

...Which, is basically all we need.


Edit: the word "could" looks so weird to me right now, it even sounds weird saying it.

 

[familyguyman]

What are common secondary moves in today's metagame?
-Status: Sleep, Paralysis, Burn, Confuse, Infatuate
-Move Locker: Taunt, Trick, Disable, Imprison, Encore, Torment
-Passing: Wish, Safeguard, Baton Pass, Light Screen, Reflect, U-Turn counts here
-Trapping: Mean Look, Spider Web
-Stat Helpers: Stat Boosters, Ingrain, Aqua Ring
-Weather
-Indirect Damage: Entry Hazards, damaging weather, recoil, Perish Song, Leech Seed


What does it mean to "Stop the Secondary"?
To me, it means the ability to stop some of the above moves or results of moves. This can be done by force or by threat.

What are the possibilities of this CAP? (Try not to poll jump too much here)
There's a lot of cool ways this could go. Move locking is a very effective strategy but severely limited to a few select Pokemon. The threat of a secondary can also be huge. Some Pokemon, like Smeargle, can threaten a Trap or Status or anything really and that threat and move combination makes him unpredictable and deadly if mismanaged.

Therefore, some cool directions could be an unpredictable threat, like an anti-Fidgit. The problem is, there's no way to stop all of the above without a unique ability or very precise ability and typing. Prioritized lists of most important secondaries to stop could help this.

To me, indirect damage is a huge factor. This could mean a great spinner or abilities like Magic Guard or Levitate + Typing. Move locking could help prevent the hazards from being set up but it does little once they set up other than force switches, which is fine too. It would also help stop status and everything else though so it's definitely my favourite option, especially since it's a pretty restricted set of Pokemon who can move lock well.


How are immunities used in the current metagame? How can we apply that knowledge to this project?
Immunities mean a free, low risk switch in. At the worst, you waste a PP off your opponent but it can help force switches or reveal the move pool of an opponent. Some Pokemon can even benefit from them.

What do we gain from an immunity pokemon?
The ability to hard counter a variety of threats, especially choice users.


This sounds a lot like Heatran, personally. An immunity, great typing (especially for status), the move pool and stats to force switches and run a lot of sets, especially with Taunt and Torment.

Not that it's bad for a more specialized Heatran, I've been wanting a Heatran alternative for a while.

 

[Apocalypse B-C]

I have a question I want to pose; does "Secondary" also apply to certain abilities in some regard? In other words, do certain abilities with effects along the lines of those that would be secondary moves (i.e. Arena Trap, Motor Drive, Intimidate, Poison Heal, Trace, to some extent), and is it worth discussing ways to "stop" these abilities? Likely not, but it's at least worth asking....

 

[Elegy]

I have a question I want to pose; does "Secondary" also apply to certain abilities in some regard? In other words, do certain abilities with effects along the lines of those that would be secondary moves (i.e. Arena Trap, Motor Drive, Intimidate, Poison Heal, Trace, to some extent), and is it worth discussing ways to "stop" these abilities? Likely not, but it's at least worth asking....

Among those abilities, only Arena Trap and Intimidate seem to affect your Pokemon harmfully, and there are natural responses already looked upon in OU, such as Shed Shell and Gliscor's Hyper Cutter, Metagross's Clear Body, etc. Although i'm sure there's more, I think we should focus more on what's game-breaking than getting your ability traced. Aside from what I listed, stopping abilities is simply difficult, trying to nullify an ability with Gastro Acid or something only to have the opponent switch.

 

[Walvren]

For the purposes of Stop the Secondary, Multitype can be quite handy. Heck, a pokemon with Multitype instantly becomes way more versatile. Still, I believe that Multitype is inferior to other abilities in stopping the secondary.

You could have a Steel type multiype and have a Toxic, Sandstorm and Trick immunity, but another ability, say, Volt Absorb could grant more immunities when taking dual typing into account. A Grass/Steel type with Volt Absorb has Electric, Toxic, Leech Seed and Sandstorm.