Wait, really?
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CAP 9 CAP 9 - Part 11 - Counters Discussion
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Wait, really?
I'm not particularly sure as to the mechanics of Intimidate (and feel free to correct me here!), but Intimidate is in essence an Auto-Growl move. Since there hasn't been any AMC in the metagame whatsoever I think the definition of Magic Coat is that it reflects anything that may cause status, or lower a stat. Since Magic Coat was built in the idea that a person would have to use a move (because you can't switch in and use MC at the same time) to bounce back the effects. However, since we're doing an ability here, I think it has the ability to bounce back Intimidate as well. Likewise, if a pokemon had an auto burn ability, then it would bounce that back as well.
Again, I cannot validate this, and if somebody could that would be appreciated -- it's just a guess here.
Magic Coat only bounces actual moves, not effects of abilities. If we want to make AMC bounce ability effects, I could probably code it that way and make it follow mechanics like Trace or something. I can't really be sure, until I go into the code. I haven't done that yet.
But, I'm not too keen on the idea of bouncing ability effects. I'm not sure how many other abilities would be "bounced" if that were the case, and I'm loathe to find out. As it stands, auto-Magic Coat strikes me as an incredibly effective ability. I don't think we need to make it start working like a combination of Trace/Mold Breaker too.
But, I'm not too keen on the idea of bouncing ability effects. I'm not sure how many other abilities would be "bounced" if that were the case, and I'm loathe to find out. As it stands, auto-Magic Coat strikes me as an incredibly effective ability. I don't think we need to make it start working like a combination of Trace/Mold Breaker too.
No, you are absolutely right. If it bounced back Intimidate (and other things...like Trace?), CAP9 would be broken IMO.
Letting Gyarados be a good check instead of a sketchy check is a big deal.
Thanks DJD, obviously you'd know the answer to this :D
Sorry to polljump, but depending on whether it gets the elemetal punches or not, Skarmory is likely to be a good counter, resisting both STABs and having sky-high Defence. Hell, Skarm could probably get some Spikes up against CAP 9. However, if it gets Thunderpunch / Fire Punch, then Skarmory becomes a check at best.
ungulateman
ungulateman
Counters to CAP9 as it stands:
I presume, that the only real 'counter' is Skarmory as it stands. I'm sorry, but at least 90% of your 'counters' are listed as unboosted. I seriously doubt that something with offensive stats like CAP9, designed to stop/punish the secondary is going to not be using a Choice Band/Life Orb/Flame Orb+Guts combination.
This means, off the list of counters/checks:
Machamp
Bulky Celebi
Bulky Waters
Gyarados (Even without Stone Edge, which is a near given. Name a Ground-type without it.)
Salamance
Breloom
Bronzong could do something for a short time, but it falls to boosted Crunches quite quickly. (Or Night Slashes, which I'd prefer, High CH ratio > Def drop, IMO)
I see no 'real' 100% counter other than Skarmory. Even then, if this thing gets Fire/Thunder punch...
Presuming Manaphy gets unbanned from Ubers, however, it could pose as a counter, because like Suicune, it can come in on EQ. However, Manaphy actually outspeeds, and has higher offensive stats.
Choice Specs Latias, if it can avoid a Dark-type move, can deal massive damage with Draco Meteor.
Jolly Lucario is a revenge killer to this thing, it outspeeds, and OHKO's with CC. Same goes for Infernape. However, neither can risk a switch-in.
I presume Scizor could be used as a check. After BP, CAP9 won't be lasting long after any hazard damage, and Life Orb/Burn damage.
Mamoswine is actually a good check, or at least a Revenge Killer. I'm 90% sure that CB Ice Shard deals enough damage to CAP9 that any level of previous damage besides SR will cause it to be KO'ed. (Flame Orb + Life Orb) Mamoswine can also come in on most of CAP9's attacks. (Again, Fire Punch provided/Fighting-type move)
I presume, that the only real 'counter' is Skarmory as it stands. I'm sorry, but at least 90% of your 'counters' are listed as unboosted. I seriously doubt that something with offensive stats like CAP9, designed to stop/punish the secondary is going to not be using a Choice Band/Life Orb/Flame Orb+Guts combination.
This means, off the list of counters/checks:
Machamp
Bulky Celebi
Bulky Waters
Gyarados (Even without Stone Edge, which is a near given. Name a Ground-type without it.)
Salamance
Breloom
Bronzong could do something for a short time, but it falls to boosted Crunches quite quickly. (Or Night Slashes, which I'd prefer, High CH ratio > Def drop, IMO)
I see no 'real' 100% counter other than Skarmory. Even then, if this thing gets Fire/Thunder punch...
Presuming Manaphy gets unbanned from Ubers, however, it could pose as a counter, because like Suicune, it can come in on EQ. However, Manaphy actually outspeeds, and has higher offensive stats.
Choice Specs Latias, if it can avoid a Dark-type move, can deal massive damage with Draco Meteor.
Jolly Lucario is a revenge killer to this thing, it outspeeds, and OHKO's with CC. Same goes for Infernape. However, neither can risk a switch-in.
I presume Scizor could be used as a check. After BP, CAP9 won't be lasting long after any hazard damage, and Life Orb/Burn damage.
Mamoswine is actually a good check, or at least a Revenge Killer. I'm 90% sure that CB Ice Shard deals enough damage to CAP9 that any level of previous damage besides SR will cause it to be KO'ed. (Flame Orb + Life Orb) Mamoswine can also come in on most of CAP9's attacks. (Again, Fire Punch provided/Fighting-type move)
I don't see how bouncing back Intimidate would be broken, since AMC only works on switch-in. That means it would only happen on a double switch, or if an Intimidater was U-turned/BPed to when CaP9 switches in. Kind of rare. I don't think any other ability would need to be included, since they don't cause an effect on the opponent.
Not if CAP9 runs a Speed+ nature with at least 216EVs it won't. Hell, it doesn't even need to invest into attack to OHKO the generic Luke with EQ
Yeah, I think Heracross would be a great counter to CAP9, resisting both CAP9's STABs and skewering it with 120 base power super effective STAB attacks.
Stuff like Breloom and Gyarados look like they work fine too. So we can conclude that CAP9 can be countered or checked by Fighting or Water Pokemon.
Stuff like Breloom and Gyarados look like they work fine too. So we can conclude that CAP9 can be countered or checked by Fighting or Water Pokemon.
252 HP / 252 Def Impish Torterra resists Earthquake and Stone Edge and takes 32.99% - 39.09% from a Jolly CB/Guts Crunch. It's a sure 3HKO but Torterra could potentially recover a lot with Leech Seed and Protect, given CAP9's high HP. Seed Bomb does 59.46% - 70.76% back while Wood Hammer does 89.93% - 106.14%.
Tangrowth functions similarly, taking 28.96% - 34.16% from a boosted Crunch, and being able to hit back with Power Whip or Leaf Storm.
It will be interesting to see if these two get any use.
Tangrowth functions similarly, taking 28.96% - 34.16% from a boosted Crunch, and being able to hit back with Power Whip or Leaf Storm.
It will be interesting to see if these two get any use.
Heracross is only a Counter if it's running a bulkier set.
Guts Boosted Earthquake versus 0 HP / 4 Def Scarf Heracross:
565 Atk vs 187 Def & 301 HP (100 Base Power): 162 - 191 / 53.82% - 63.46%
A clean 2HKO. This is assuming a Max Adamant Attack stat of 377 from CAP9 [calculated out the difference between Arceus' and Azelf's Attack stat]. ScarfHera can outspeed but obviously can only come in once.
Guts Boosted Crunch versus 0 HP / 4 Def Scarf Heracross:
565 Atk vs 187 Def & 301 HP (80 Base Power): 130 - 153 / 43.19% - 50.83%
A 2HKO with SR. With bulk, however, it's a different story.
Guts Boosted Earthquake versus 252 HP / 152 Def Adamant Bulk Up Heracross:
565 Atk vs 224 Def & 364 HP (100 Base Power): 135 - 159 / 37.09% - 43.68%
The EVs are to guarantee EQ will never 2HKO factoring SR, Sandstorm and Leftovers. Switch in on the EQ, Rest and Sleep Talk. Whatever Orb CAP9 is carrying will wear it down quickly, while, with some luck, Hera can Bulk Up and attempt an early sweep or just kill it with Megahorn. Even with no Attack investment, Megahorn is an OHKO against min HP / min Def Adamant or Jolly CAP9 (314 Atk vs 180 Def [Using Carnivine's Def Stat] & 404 HP [calculating an average between Lapras' and Lanturn's HP stat] (120 Base Power): 450 - 530 / 111.39% - 131.19%)
Guts Boosted Crunch versus 252 HP / 152 Def Adamant Bulk Up Heracross:
565 Atk vs 224 Def & 364 HP (80 Base Power): 108 - 128 / 29.67% - 35.16%
An even more advantageous situation.
An EV spread of Adamant 252 HP / 40 Atk / 152 Def / 64 Spe and a moveset of Rest / Sleep Talk / Bulk Up / Megahorn can be used to effectively Counter even the most offensive of CAP9's, assuming it's not running a Band and happens to get Burned or something improbable. And it doesn't get any stat up moves.
The 64 Speed EVs allow you to outrun 252 Tyranitar (no other useful benchmarks are met while still surviving the EQ) and the leftover 40 are dumped into Attack. They can go into SpD for extra survivability, although I've no idea what you'd be able to survive with those extra EVs.
However, one may opt to use Impish 252 HP / 32 Atk / 72 Def / 152 Spe. This will allow you the same survivability as the Adamant version but allow you to outspeed +Nature 252 Tyranitar. Some power is lost, however, but still enough to OHKO CAP9 with Megahorn, even if you dump the remaining 32 EVs into SpD.
Alas, it is not all good news ...
Guts Boosted Stone Edge versus 252 HP / 152 Def Adamant Bulk Up Heracross:
565 Atk vs 224 Def & 364 HP (100 Base Power): 181 - 213 / 49.73% - 58.52%
A 2HKO, but I'm not sure about factoring in accuracy.
Now onto Hariyama.
Guts Boosted Earthquake versus 80 HP / 252 Def Physical Tank Hariyama:
565 Atk vs 240 Def & 449 HP (100 Base Power): 253 - 298 / 56.35% - 66.37%
Guts Boosted Earthquake versus 252 HP / 252 Def Impish Hariyama:
565 Atk vs 240 Def & 492 HP (100 Base Power): 253 - 298 / 51.42% - 60.57%
Even with maxed defenses to protect against EQs, Hariyama is still 2HKO'd. Hariyama is certainly no Counter.
As for Machamp ...
Guts Boosted Earthquake versus 252 HP / 0 Def RestTalker Machamp:
565 Atk vs 196 Def & 384 HP (100 Base Power): 310 - 366 / 80.73% - 95.31%
Guts Boosted Earthquake versus 252 HP / 252 Def Impish Machamp:
565 Atk vs 284 Def & 384 HP (100 Base Power): 214 - 253 / 55.73% - 65.89%
An easy 2HKO, on both sets. Heracross' Ground resistance is paramount here.
And finally Breloom ...
Guts Boosted Earthquake versus Alternate Spread of 172 HP / 204 Def Adamant SubSeed Breloom:
565 Atk vs 247 Def & 304 HP (100 Base Power): 123 - 145 / 40.46% - 47.70%
Factoring in Poison Heal, CAP9's EQ won't 2HKO. Unfortunately, even with Max HP / Max Def, CAP9's EQ will always break Bree's Sub, so it's only option, lest it die, would be to Seed Bomb. More of a Check than a Counter.
Guts Boosted Crunch versus Alternate Spread of 172 HP / 204 Def Adamant SubSeed Breloom:
565 Atk vs 247 Def & 304 HP (80 Base Power): 98 - 116 / 32.24% - 38.16%
Just for the curious.
I should note that Life Orb boosted attacks do less than Guts boosted attacks, so their calculations are irrelevant.
I've only done calculations on Bulky Fighters, so Bulky Waters and other mentions are still on the table.
P.S. woo, first CAP post.
P.P.S if my calculations are incorrect, please disregard the rest of my statement, as I am quite tired and am prone to mistakes.
P.P.P.S if anyone can supply me the exact stats CAP9 would have in the same fashion as an analysis, that'd be greatly appreciated. I'm not sure where you guys are getting your numbers from; I'm just estimating CAP9's stats.
Guts Boosted Earthquake versus 0 HP / 4 Def Scarf Heracross:
565 Atk vs 187 Def & 301 HP (100 Base Power): 162 - 191 / 53.82% - 63.46%
A clean 2HKO. This is assuming a Max Adamant Attack stat of 377 from CAP9 [calculated out the difference between Arceus' and Azelf's Attack stat]. ScarfHera can outspeed but obviously can only come in once.
Guts Boosted Crunch versus 0 HP / 4 Def Scarf Heracross:
565 Atk vs 187 Def & 301 HP (80 Base Power): 130 - 153 / 43.19% - 50.83%
A 2HKO with SR. With bulk, however, it's a different story.
Guts Boosted Earthquake versus 252 HP / 152 Def Adamant Bulk Up Heracross:
565 Atk vs 224 Def & 364 HP (100 Base Power): 135 - 159 / 37.09% - 43.68%
The EVs are to guarantee EQ will never 2HKO factoring SR, Sandstorm and Leftovers. Switch in on the EQ, Rest and Sleep Talk. Whatever Orb CAP9 is carrying will wear it down quickly, while, with some luck, Hera can Bulk Up and attempt an early sweep or just kill it with Megahorn. Even with no Attack investment, Megahorn is an OHKO against min HP / min Def Adamant or Jolly CAP9 (314 Atk vs 180 Def [Using Carnivine's Def Stat] & 404 HP [calculating an average between Lapras' and Lanturn's HP stat] (120 Base Power): 450 - 530 / 111.39% - 131.19%)
Guts Boosted Crunch versus 252 HP / 152 Def Adamant Bulk Up Heracross:
565 Atk vs 224 Def & 364 HP (80 Base Power): 108 - 128 / 29.67% - 35.16%
An even more advantageous situation.
An EV spread of Adamant 252 HP / 40 Atk / 152 Def / 64 Spe and a moveset of Rest / Sleep Talk / Bulk Up / Megahorn can be used to effectively Counter even the most offensive of CAP9's, assuming it's not running a Band and happens to get Burned or something improbable. And it doesn't get any stat up moves.
The 64 Speed EVs allow you to outrun 252 Tyranitar (no other useful benchmarks are met while still surviving the EQ) and the leftover 40 are dumped into Attack. They can go into SpD for extra survivability, although I've no idea what you'd be able to survive with those extra EVs.
However, one may opt to use Impish 252 HP / 32 Atk / 72 Def / 152 Spe. This will allow you the same survivability as the Adamant version but allow you to outspeed +Nature 252 Tyranitar. Some power is lost, however, but still enough to OHKO CAP9 with Megahorn, even if you dump the remaining 32 EVs into SpD.
Alas, it is not all good news ...
Guts Boosted Stone Edge versus 252 HP / 152 Def Adamant Bulk Up Heracross:
565 Atk vs 224 Def & 364 HP (100 Base Power): 181 - 213 / 49.73% - 58.52%
A 2HKO, but I'm not sure about factoring in accuracy.
Now onto Hariyama.
Guts Boosted Earthquake versus 80 HP / 252 Def Physical Tank Hariyama:
565 Atk vs 240 Def & 449 HP (100 Base Power): 253 - 298 / 56.35% - 66.37%
Guts Boosted Earthquake versus 252 HP / 252 Def Impish Hariyama:
565 Atk vs 240 Def & 492 HP (100 Base Power): 253 - 298 / 51.42% - 60.57%
Even with maxed defenses to protect against EQs, Hariyama is still 2HKO'd. Hariyama is certainly no Counter.
As for Machamp ...
Guts Boosted Earthquake versus 252 HP / 0 Def RestTalker Machamp:
565 Atk vs 196 Def & 384 HP (100 Base Power): 310 - 366 / 80.73% - 95.31%
Guts Boosted Earthquake versus 252 HP / 252 Def Impish Machamp:
565 Atk vs 284 Def & 384 HP (100 Base Power): 214 - 253 / 55.73% - 65.89%
An easy 2HKO, on both sets. Heracross' Ground resistance is paramount here.
And finally Breloom ...
Guts Boosted Earthquake versus Alternate Spread of 172 HP / 204 Def Adamant SubSeed Breloom:
565 Atk vs 247 Def & 304 HP (100 Base Power): 123 - 145 / 40.46% - 47.70%
Factoring in Poison Heal, CAP9's EQ won't 2HKO. Unfortunately, even with Max HP / Max Def, CAP9's EQ will always break Bree's Sub, so it's only option, lest it die, would be to Seed Bomb. More of a Check than a Counter.
Guts Boosted Crunch versus Alternate Spread of 172 HP / 204 Def Adamant SubSeed Breloom:
565 Atk vs 247 Def & 304 HP (80 Base Power): 98 - 116 / 32.24% - 38.16%
Just for the curious.
I should note that Life Orb boosted attacks do less than Guts boosted attacks, so their calculations are irrelevant.
I've only done calculations on Bulky Fighters, so Bulky Waters and other mentions are still on the table.
P.S. woo, first CAP post.
P.P.S if my calculations are incorrect, please disregard the rest of my statement, as I am quite tired and am prone to mistakes.
P.P.P.S if anyone can supply me the exact stats CAP9 would have in the same fashion as an analysis, that'd be greatly appreciated. I'm not sure where you guys are getting your numbers from; I'm just estimating CAP9's stats.
^^ well, as CaP9 has yet to be tested, there is no analysis. Useful EV spreads have yet to be established, so all we can go off of at this point is its base stats and likely investments.
Which is something I've been meaning to bring up. Why is every iteration of CaP9 in the Counters Thread the Guts Sweeper? I don't think it would be terribly difficult to assume that "predict a resisted attack (or give it death fodder to get a free switch), switch in something faster than it, then attack with neutral-or-better attacks" strategy would absolutely destroy it. Remember, CaP has 133/72/72 defenses, meaning it gets pretty much all its bulk from HP (so, with Burn/Toxic damage and trying to weather any attacks at all, it will get worn down very quickly). Orb Sweeper is an entirely counterable strategy, regardless of what pokemon is using it. It'll net a kill or two per match, maybe, but that's not too important, imo, for this discussion.
You can tell after its first turn in battle weather or not CaP's an Orb sweeper, so what if it's not? What if it doesn't get Burned as it switches in and could do anything else with itself? What do you switch into an unboosted CaP9? Or a defensive version? How do you tell if an opposing CaP has Guts without an Orb and is just waiting for you to activate it? Is it ever safe to attempt to status CaP9? These are things I would like to know.
Sadly, I have a doctor appointment now, so I can't begin to explore these questions yet, but I will say that I can see Sub/Pain Split Rotom-x being a great CaP9 scout. Rotom-x is a pokemon just begging for CaP to switch in on it and threaten/destroy it, but from behind a Sub, it can check its speed, moves, and strategy while escaping with full health (bar Pursuit, which, if you fear, you can just switch out and lose your Sub without using Pain Split) and significantly denting CaP's. For a pokemon such as CaP that is apparently uncounterable by one specific pokemon in every scenario, this could be a very useful strategy (also fuck Blissey).
Which is something I've been meaning to bring up. Why is every iteration of CaP9 in the Counters Thread the Guts Sweeper? I don't think it would be terribly difficult to assume that "predict a resisted attack (or give it death fodder to get a free switch), switch in something faster than it, then attack with neutral-or-better attacks" strategy would absolutely destroy it. Remember, CaP has 133/72/72 defenses, meaning it gets pretty much all its bulk from HP (so, with Burn/Toxic damage and trying to weather any attacks at all, it will get worn down very quickly). Orb Sweeper is an entirely counterable strategy, regardless of what pokemon is using it. It'll net a kill or two per match, maybe, but that's not too important, imo, for this discussion.
You can tell after its first turn in battle weather or not CaP's an Orb sweeper, so what if it's not? What if it doesn't get Burned as it switches in and could do anything else with itself? What do you switch into an unboosted CaP9? Or a defensive version? How do you tell if an opposing CaP has Guts without an Orb and is just waiting for you to activate it? Is it ever safe to attempt to status CaP9? These are things I would like to know.
Sadly, I have a doctor appointment now, so I can't begin to explore these questions yet, but I will say that I can see Sub/Pain Split Rotom-x being a great CaP9 scout. Rotom-x is a pokemon just begging for CaP to switch in on it and threaten/destroy it, but from behind a Sub, it can check its speed, moves, and strategy while escaping with full health (bar Pursuit, which, if you fear, you can just switch out and lose your Sub without using Pain Split) and significantly denting CaP's. For a pokemon such as CaP that is apparently uncounterable by one specific pokemon in every scenario, this could be a very useful strategy (also fuck Blissey).
checks (with the assumption that cap9 is max attack cb/guts. only moves assumed from cap 9 are dark and ground. some checks may not be or fare well in ou but may come into play if cap9 over centralizes)
leafeon - even with min atk (neutral nature, max hp/def) leafeon leaf blade can do upwards to 75% cap9. while it only takes about 41-49% from a crunch. with only burn/poison and leftovers in play this should be more than enough for leafeon to handle. with good ev spreads and leafeons 95 speed it can at least speed tie, although sucker punch becomes an issue.
abomasnow - can ohko with min atk life orb ice shard and hail. needs defensive investments. sucker punch can become an issue if it switches on on a crunch. aboma is a team liability.
toxicroak - fairly obvious what will happen. needs choice scarf to outspeed upon a switch in to threaten.
counter
hippowdon - bulky version with slack off counter fairly well, healing back just over as much as the average attack it will be hit with (earthquake). with burn/poison in play, cap9 wont want to stay in for long and hippow can throw back an earthquake at around 30%.
honchkrow - resists dark and immune to ground lets it become a good switch in. min hp def honch takes about 47-55% from crunch so some investments to defence would be wise. even without honchkrow has superpower.
cacturne - cacturne resists both of cap 9s stabs, min defs take 70-82% from earthquake, 56-66% from crunch. can ohko back with seed bomb or near ohko and steal back a lot of health with drain punch. more defensive spread with choice scarf would be best.
shiftty -like cacturne, with better hp and worse atks. 61-72% from earth quake, 49-58% from crunch. can still threaten cap9 with s/e grass moves.
note: been up for a while, numbers starting to fuse together, calcs should be taken for rough estimations.
its best to envision this within the worst case scenario, and guts sweeper will probably be used often. all of the pokemon posted in this thread all have a better chance to become counters iinstead of checks if cap9 is a of a bulkier version.
leafeon - even with min atk (neutral nature, max hp/def) leafeon leaf blade can do upwards to 75% cap9. while it only takes about 41-49% from a crunch. with only burn/poison and leftovers in play this should be more than enough for leafeon to handle. with good ev spreads and leafeons 95 speed it can at least speed tie, although sucker punch becomes an issue.
abomasnow - can ohko with min atk life orb ice shard and hail. needs defensive investments. sucker punch can become an issue if it switches on on a crunch. aboma is a team liability.
toxicroak - fairly obvious what will happen. needs choice scarf to outspeed upon a switch in to threaten.
counter
hippowdon - bulky version with slack off counter fairly well, healing back just over as much as the average attack it will be hit with (earthquake). with burn/poison in play, cap9 wont want to stay in for long and hippow can throw back an earthquake at around 30%.
honchkrow - resists dark and immune to ground lets it become a good switch in. min hp def honch takes about 47-55% from crunch so some investments to defence would be wise. even without honchkrow has superpower.
cacturne - cacturne resists both of cap 9s stabs, min defs take 70-82% from earthquake, 56-66% from crunch. can ohko back with seed bomb or near ohko and steal back a lot of health with drain punch. more defensive spread with choice scarf would be best.
shiftty -like cacturne, with better hp and worse atks. 61-72% from earth quake, 49-58% from crunch. can still threaten cap9 with s/e grass moves.
note: been up for a while, numbers starting to fuse together, calcs should be taken for rough estimations.
its best to envision this within the worst case scenario, and guts sweeper will probably be used often. all of the pokemon posted in this thread all have a better chance to become counters iinstead of checks if cap9 is a of a bulkier version.
That's why I asked if it was being listed as a check rather than a counter. Of course Swampert will be a good check to CAP9 but it won't be a counter, nor will anything else that is both outsped and 2HKO'd by one of CAP9's moves when factoring in Guts. Non-Guts variants of CAP9 will be much easier to counter.
Firstly, we are trying to establish what would be counters to CAP9 unless we needlessly extend CAP9's movepool. To be a counter, I feel a pokemon has to first either outspeed and avoid an OHKO in common battle conditions, or not outspeed and avoid a 2HKO in common battle conditions, given that you do not definitely know what CAP9 is going to use and so may eat a super effective hit. The fact that CAP9 has Guts means Toxic/Flame Orb CAP9 will come under common battle conditions because, unlike Heracross and Machamp, CAP9 has the speed to abuse Guts. See Swellow in UU. Secondly, the pokemon must either be able to KO CAP9 faster than CAP9 can KO it given that CAP9 has already landed one hit, or recover more per turn than CAP9 can dish out in common battle conditions. Only then is the pokemon a counter. Your "predict a resisted attack (or give it death fodder to get a free switch), switch in something faster than it, then attack with neutral-or-better attacks" strategy is what we call checking, much like how Infernape with Life Orb is a Blissey check rather than a Blissey counter because Infernape can't switch in on Thunder Wave.
See Garchomp and possibly Wobbuffet, and then consider that CAP9 is for OU, not Ubers.
no one mentioned Weavile yet? not a counter due to its paper thin defenses, but likely a decent check for the shear amount of damage it can do and its ability to possibly force a switch.
also, we shouldn't forget Mamoswine, with its amazing attack and defense, plus it's immunity to SS (which some have mentioned as needed for a few 2HKOs).
lets not discount Breloom and Toxicroak as possible checks yet. breloom can still get a guarenteed 2HKO with a seed bomb or a +2 mach punch, and toxicroak has its NP set.
also, we shouldn't forget Mamoswine, with its amazing attack and defense, plus it's immunity to SS (which some have mentioned as needed for a few 2HKOs).
lets not discount Breloom and Toxicroak as possible checks yet. breloom can still get a guarenteed 2HKO with a seed bomb or a +2 mach punch, and toxicroak has its NP set.
Can somebody explain to me Toxicroak here? It's slower than CAP 9, and will die to EQ when switched in. Therefore you'd need a scarf Toxicroak, hoping on a Crunch to land (which will still do some damage, it's got meh defense), which is a pretty funny joke in OU :/. A vacuum wave from a NP croak set will not kill CAP 9 either.
Honchkrow will at best be able to come in on EQ, and Superpower CAP 9. A Crunch from CAP 9 will be able to 2hko Honchkrow on the switchin, and that's considering we dont give it Stone Edge either. In addition, it is faster than Honchkrow. Even if it does come in on EQ, if this thing gets SE, it's game over for Honchkrow. But then again, Honchkrow isn't the most potent sweeper there is on OU, nor is Toxicroak. Using it for the sake of CAP 9 alone is already iffy. Using them for that instance alone is even iffier.
Honchkrow will at best be able to come in on EQ, and Superpower CAP 9. A Crunch from CAP 9 will be able to 2hko Honchkrow on the switchin, and that's considering we dont give it Stone Edge either. In addition, it is faster than Honchkrow. Even if it does come in on EQ, if this thing gets SE, it's game over for Honchkrow. But then again, Honchkrow isn't the most potent sweeper there is on OU, nor is Toxicroak. Using it for the sake of CAP 9 alone is already iffy. Using them for that instance alone is even iffier.
How is a 2hko relevant when EQ OHKOs? When will Focus Sash Toxicroak become viable in a metagame where Stealth Rock is essentially everywhere? Above all else, when do you draw the line between gimmick and solid check?
to say that SR is everywhere is a bit of a hyperbole. yes it is popular, but not every opponent will set up entry hazards, or be given the time to do so. as for it being a gimmick set, i actually used something similar (NP/shadow ball/vaccuum wave/icy wind) in ubers in order to keep different sweepers in check, as it isn't the SE damage that can make the attack viable but the speed drop itself (though the larger percentage of the uber metagame being hit SE by ice did help). its meant to be a suicide poke to either KO a sweeper, or to make it easier to KO
Just some more calcs according to what little data I have regarding CAP9 ...
Guts Boosted Earthquake versus Bold 252 HP / 252 Def Crocune:
565 Atk vs 361 Def & 404 HP (100 Base Power): 169 - 199 / 41.83% - 49.26%
2HKO with SR.
Guts Boosted Earthquake versus Relaxed 252 HP / 252 Def Mixpert:
565 Atk vs 306 Def & 404 HP (100 Base Power): 199 - 235 / 49.26% - 58.17%
No chance.
Guts Boosted Crunch versus Impish 252 HP / 176 Def Spiker Skarmory:
565 Atk vs 396 Def & 334 HP (80 Base Power): 61 - 72 / 18.26% - 21.56%
Guts Boosted Stone Edge versus Impish 252 HP / 176 Def Spiker Skarmory:
565 Atk vs 396 Def & 334 HP (100 Base Power): 102 - 120 / 30.54% - 35.93%
Looking like the best option. Prediction will be key in determining when Skarmory will Roost though.
Guts Boosted Earthquake versus Impish 252 HP / 168 Def Physical Wall Hippowdon:
565 Atk vs 345 Def & 420 HP (100 Base Power): 177 - 208 / 42.14% - 49.52%
Won't 2HKO factoring in SR and Leftovers. Can Slack Off the damage and stall CAP9 to death.
Guts Boosted Crunch versus Adamant 4 HP / 0 Def Physical Attacker Honchkrow:
565 Atk vs 140 Def & 342 HP (80 Base Power): 174 - 204 / 50.88% - 59.65%
Guts Boosted Stone Edge versus Adamant 4 HP / 0 Def Physical Attacker Honchkrow:
565 Atk vs 140 Def & 342 HP (100 Base Power): 578 - 682 / 169.01% - 199.42%
Even a resisted Crunch is a 2HKO.
Guts Boosted Earthquake versus Adamant 0 HP / 4 Def CB Mamoswine:
565 Atk vs 197 Def & 361 HP (100 Base Power): 307 - 363 / 85.04% - 100.55%
Guts Boosted Earthquake versus Adamant 124 HP / 64 Def Restalk/Curse Mamoswine:
565 Atk vs 212 Def & 392 HP (100 Base Power): 286 - 337 / 72.96% - 85.97%
Adamant 252 Atk Ice Shard versus Adamant 0 HP / 0 Def CAP9:
394 Atk vs 180 Def & 404 HP (40 Base Power): 188 - 224 / 46.53% - 55.45%
Adamant 252 Atk CB Ice Shard versus Adamant 0 HP / 0 Def CAP9:
591 Atk vs 180 Def & 404 HP (40 Base Power): 284 - 336 / 70.30% - 83.17%
Even if you ran a bulkier spread with a CB to survive the EQ, it would only manage a meagre 76%~ on average.
Guts Boosted Earthquake versus Impish 252 HP / 20 Def Wish Support Leafeon:
565 Atk vs 331 Def & 334 HP (100 Base Power): 92 - 108 / 27.54% - 32.34%
Impish 0 Atk Leaf Blade versus Adamant 0 HP / 0 Def CAP9:
256 Atk vs 180 Def & 404 HP (90 Base Power): 276 - 326 / 68.32% - 80.69%
A bulkier Leafeon set is actually a surprisingly good counter, especially since it can pass Wishes to other members.
Yeah, it's looking like very little will full out Counter CAP9, but a lot of this is Theorymon. A combination of prediction, switching and capitalizing on resistances and immunities will wear CAP9 down quite fast. True Counters are sparse and even some Checks are iffy.
Guts Boosted Earthquake versus Bold 252 HP / 252 Def Crocune:
565 Atk vs 361 Def & 404 HP (100 Base Power): 169 - 199 / 41.83% - 49.26%
2HKO with SR.
Guts Boosted Earthquake versus Relaxed 252 HP / 252 Def Mixpert:
565 Atk vs 306 Def & 404 HP (100 Base Power): 199 - 235 / 49.26% - 58.17%
No chance.
Guts Boosted Crunch versus Impish 252 HP / 176 Def Spiker Skarmory:
565 Atk vs 396 Def & 334 HP (80 Base Power): 61 - 72 / 18.26% - 21.56%
Guts Boosted Stone Edge versus Impish 252 HP / 176 Def Spiker Skarmory:
565 Atk vs 396 Def & 334 HP (100 Base Power): 102 - 120 / 30.54% - 35.93%
Looking like the best option. Prediction will be key in determining when Skarmory will Roost though.
Guts Boosted Earthquake versus Impish 252 HP / 168 Def Physical Wall Hippowdon:
565 Atk vs 345 Def & 420 HP (100 Base Power): 177 - 208 / 42.14% - 49.52%
Won't 2HKO factoring in SR and Leftovers. Can Slack Off the damage and stall CAP9 to death.
Guts Boosted Crunch versus Adamant 4 HP / 0 Def Physical Attacker Honchkrow:
565 Atk vs 140 Def & 342 HP (80 Base Power): 174 - 204 / 50.88% - 59.65%
Guts Boosted Stone Edge versus Adamant 4 HP / 0 Def Physical Attacker Honchkrow:
565 Atk vs 140 Def & 342 HP (100 Base Power): 578 - 682 / 169.01% - 199.42%
Even a resisted Crunch is a 2HKO.
Guts Boosted Earthquake versus Adamant 0 HP / 4 Def CB Mamoswine:
565 Atk vs 197 Def & 361 HP (100 Base Power): 307 - 363 / 85.04% - 100.55%
Guts Boosted Earthquake versus Adamant 124 HP / 64 Def Restalk/Curse Mamoswine:
565 Atk vs 212 Def & 392 HP (100 Base Power): 286 - 337 / 72.96% - 85.97%
Adamant 252 Atk Ice Shard versus Adamant 0 HP / 0 Def CAP9:
394 Atk vs 180 Def & 404 HP (40 Base Power): 188 - 224 / 46.53% - 55.45%
Adamant 252 Atk CB Ice Shard versus Adamant 0 HP / 0 Def CAP9:
591 Atk vs 180 Def & 404 HP (40 Base Power): 284 - 336 / 70.30% - 83.17%
Even if you ran a bulkier spread with a CB to survive the EQ, it would only manage a meagre 76%~ on average.
Guts Boosted Earthquake versus Impish 252 HP / 20 Def Wish Support Leafeon:
565 Atk vs 331 Def & 334 HP (100 Base Power): 92 - 108 / 27.54% - 32.34%
Impish 0 Atk Leaf Blade versus Adamant 0 HP / 0 Def CAP9:
256 Atk vs 180 Def & 404 HP (90 Base Power): 276 - 326 / 68.32% - 80.69%
A bulkier Leafeon set is actually a surprisingly good counter, especially since it can pass Wishes to other members.
Yeah, it's looking like very little will full out Counter CAP9, but a lot of this is Theorymon. A combination of prediction, switching and capitalizing on resistances and immunities will wear CAP9 down quite fast. True Counters are sparse and even some Checks are iffy.
To be honest, just because something can KO CAP9 in two turns doesn't really make it a check. Which of CAP9's attacking moves can the supposed checks switch in against? I say attacking moves because if we factor in non-attacking moves as well, then everything that doesn't rely on set-up or secondary effects is suddenly a check to CAP9, even Choice Band Shedinja.
Whether Toxicroak is viable in ubers is up for discussion anywhere else, go and ask some people outside of CAP if you really want. For now, the thread's attention should not shift from how viable a check is to CAP 9 to how viable said check fares in OU, sorry if I made you guys think this way. However I think it's fine to acknowledge certain checks simply do not cut it in OU (Doug brought up a cool point on irc about Tangrowth and CAP 9). I'll apologize if I came off as "everybody" gets SR up, perhaps it should be more of "most people aim to get it up". Nonetheless, I still don't see how that would make for a viable check anyways. A sash Toxicroak would factor in that you wouldn't be able to switch in into an attack, so switching into Crunch or EQ is out of the equation. That alone makes it trivial as a check at best. If you bring it in after one pokemon dies, then that also factors that SR or sandstorm is not up, both which are quite common in OU. The only scenario in which it would beat CAP 9 one on one is if no Sandstorm or SR was up, and it came in after a kill.
Because it is far and away the most dangerous? As you can tell from the calcs I and others have posted, it easily 2hkos almost the entire OU metagame with Crunch, Facade, or Earthquake, with Skarmory being pretty much the sole exception, while still being bulky and having access to moves like (presumably) Taunt. Nothing a defensive AMC set can manage comes anywhere close to being that threatening.
With that said, I did include some notes in my calcs about how certain walls would fare against defensive variants of CAP9.
Oh, speaking of Facade, it would be a good idea to include that in the calcs on things neutral to both Crunch and not weak to Earthquake, because Facade is around 20% stronger than a STAB Crunch (the equivalent of a boosting Plate). I think that pushes a few walls, like Gliscor, to 2hko land.
Facade does 33.42% - 39.36% to Tangrowth and 38.83% - 45.69% to Torterra. Torterra takes about 5-6% more but loses 6% less to Stealth Rock. Neither is 2HKO'ed, and both can hit back hard (Torterra might die if it takes a second hit and uses Wood Hammer). Torterra also gets to keep leftovers recovery in Sandstorm. Someone mentioned Leafeon earlier, and it takes 39.22% - 46.41% from Facade. Unlike the other two, it gets 2HKO'ed in Sandstorm (with SR). If you have Stealth Rock and Sandstorm going, you are best off with Torterra I think. All have Wish, Leech Seed, and/or Synthesis to try and replenish if they need to do this more than once. All are outsped, though, so they need to be in good health to be a good counter. Still, the numbers honestly look better than most of the pokemon people have been discussing.
Of those three, Torterra probably has the most OU utility, as it can stop sweeps from Tyranitar and Lucario, can lay Stealth Rock, and has ground STAB. Not the best pokemon, but with CAP9 sure to be on everyone's team, it might be worth using.
As for Toxicroak, how is a pokemon that is slower than CAP9, has terrible defenses, and is weak to it's strongest move a counter? Heck, Lucario is better in every way... it resists Facade, 4x resists Crunch and Stone Edge, and dies just as horribly the next turn to Earthquake. Specs Lucario will at least accomplish 63.39% - 75.18% with Vacuum Wave. Possibly more interesting is the idea of coming in something that isn't EQ (U-turn in from Flygon or switch from a levitator/flyer) and then using Endure to set up a Reversal sweep. Lucario really isn't a safe bet, though.
Of those three, Torterra probably has the most OU utility, as it can stop sweeps from Tyranitar and Lucario, can lay Stealth Rock, and has ground STAB. Not the best pokemon, but with CAP9 sure to be on everyone's team, it might be worth using.
As for Toxicroak, how is a pokemon that is slower than CAP9, has terrible defenses, and is weak to it's strongest move a counter? Heck, Lucario is better in every way... it resists Facade, 4x resists Crunch and Stone Edge, and dies just as horribly the next turn to Earthquake. Specs Lucario will at least accomplish 63.39% - 75.18% with Vacuum Wave. Possibly more interesting is the idea of coming in something that isn't EQ (U-turn in from Flygon or switch from a levitator/flyer) and then using Endure to set up a Reversal sweep. Lucario really isn't a safe bet, though.
I think a forgotten check here is Scizor.
Max Atk non-boosted Bug Bite OHKOs No investment CAP9.
394 Atk vs 180 Def & 407 HP (90 Base Power): 422 - 500 (103.69% - 122.85%)
Scarf Scizor can therefore easily OHKO and would only be KO'd by something like Fire Blast or Fire Fang.
Other Scizor is slower and thus can only revenge kill it. Occa Berry Scizor can 100% revenge kill regardless of set.
Max Atk non-boosted Bug Bite OHKOs No investment CAP9.
394 Atk vs 180 Def & 407 HP (90 Base Power): 422 - 500 (103.69% - 122.85%)
Scarf Scizor can therefore easily OHKO and would only be KO'd by something like Fire Blast or Fire Fang.
Other Scizor is slower and thus can only revenge kill it. Occa Berry Scizor can 100% revenge kill regardless of set.
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