CAP 9 CAP 9 - Part 3 - Secondary Typing Poll

[Objection]

When there's the possibility of base 140 attack and a powerful, non-STAB move making it into the movepool, given that this pokemon's purpose is not to sweep, STAB is a moot argument either way.

EDIT:

Who decided that its purpose is not to sweep? Stopping the secondary is arguably a great quality to go with a sweeper.

The concept was "Stop the Secondary" not "Sweep to kingdom come". The first thing on our minds should be "How do we discourage players from relying on secondary effects?" If, after we've made a CAP that should do just that and then discover that it actually has sweeping potential, then whoopee!

 

[viol and bass]

When there's the possibility of base 140 attack and a powerful, non-STAB move making it into the movepool, given that this pokemon's purpose is not to sweep, STAB is a moot argument either way.

Who decided that its purpose is not to sweep? Stopping the secondary is arguably a great quality to go with a sweeper.

 

[Dummy007]

Voted Ground. Why?

Between Dark and Ground, several common secondary users can be stopped:

Rotom-A: Taunt (blocks W-o-W), Immune to Discharge, SE STAB Pursuit
Celebi: SE STAB Pursuit, Immunity to T-Wave
Jirachi (A common Trick user): SE STAB Earthquake
Blissey: Taunt, Substitute (since almost everything learns it, I figured I'd include it)
Forretress: Taunt

These common secondary users are all hindered or stopped by Dark/Ground. That's why it got my vote.

 

[Blue_Tornado]

Voted Ground. Why?

Between Dark and Ground, several common secondary users can be stopped:

Rotom-A: Taunt (blocks W-o-W), Immune to Discharge, SE STAB Pursuit
Celebi: SE STAB Pursuit, Immunity to T-Wave
Jirachi (A common Trick user): SE STAB Earthquake
Blissey: Taunt, Substitute (since almost everything learns it, I figured I'd include it)
Forretress: Taunt

These common secondary users are all hindered or stopped by Dark/Ground. That's why it got my vote.

"Taunt" will probably be with any type you choose, not just Ground.

 

[Raikizen]

Voted Ground. Why?

Between Dark and Ground, several common secondary users can be stopped:

Rotom-A: Taunt (blocks W-o-W), Immune to Discharge, SE STAB Pursuit
Celebi: SE STAB Pursuit, Immunity to T-Wave
Jirachi (A common Trick user): SE STAB Earthquake
Blissey: Taunt, Substitute (since almost everything learns it, I figured I'd include it)
Forretress: Taunt

These common secondary users are all hindered or stopped by Dark/Ground. That's why it got my vote.

Actually, we covered this pretty in-depth in the Concept Thread. Even moi, the concept creater, said it wasn't about Taunt. You can't switch in and use a move on the same turn. Therefore, Taunt is practically useless in being able to switch in on the secondary. If you switch in and get burned, and Taunt is the only way you have to stop it, then you've already failed.

(A little free time. I will actually be gone after this post.)

 

[ferron]

Who decided that its purpose is not to sweep? Stopping the secondary is arguably a great quality to go with a sweeper.

then why does it always seem to be on utility pokes...oh, thats right, it has to do with the fact that there is a thing called "moveslot syndrome." how do you expect it to use all the utility moves that will actually stop secondary effects (magic coat, rapid spin, etc.) AND sweep?

 

[DCJ]

I voted Ground because its provides a superior set of resistances and immunities to the table. SR resist, SS immunity, T-Wave / Electric immunity, and STAB on possibly the best attacking move in the game to name a few. Ground will help CAP 9 work around resistances and immunities to let it to Stop The Secondary.

 

[familyguyman]

I voted Ground because its provides a superior set of resistances and immunities to the table. SR resist, SS immunity, T-Wave / Electric immunity, and STAB on possibly the best attacking move in the game to name a few. Ground will help CAP 9 work around resistances and immunities to let it to Stop The Secondary.

You do realize Ground only has an Electric Immunity and Poison Resist on Fighting while boasting significantly worse weaknesses. Fighting is also a great offensive type due to it's perfect neutrality on all Steel types.

Really, there's no worthy advantage of Ground over Fighting. The only one worth mentioning does not come close to balancing the terrible weaknesses Ground typing brings.

Poison is at least a more unique typing and serves a very different purpose.


If anyone can give me a strong reason as to why Ground is better than Fighting, I'd be curious to hear it. If the only thing is Electric Immunity, then that's not good enough IMO.

 

[Raikaria]

Electric Immunity? OK, Sandstorm Immunity. A STAB that actually hurts Psychic and Ghost types, some of the most common users of Secondary moves. A STAB that hurts Jirachi a lot more than Fighting ever will. A combined type resist that allows to resist most common status users, except Grass, and Waters.

Not to mention, unlike Fighting, both Poision and Ground actually help to acomplish the CAP's aims, not leaving it 100% to the ability is nice, isn't it? Considering no abilty can stop the Speed drop from Paralysis, and the damage from other passive things reliably, at once. Don't say Posion Heal. It dosen't work without a prior turn, and switching in on Status is something CAP9 should be able to do.

How about you give me something that Fighting has over Ground, except lack of weaknesses, which will actually help aclomplish the CAP's aims?

 

[DougJustDoug]

This CAP has an insanely high post rate, probably the most in project history. But, I want to comment on a couple of posts from "earlier" (not very long ago, lol).

RE: My supposed "flavor" arguments against Fighting
I laughed when I saw my arguments referred to as "flavor". Yes, I referred to CAP history, which is not typically considered relevant -- but I referred to CAP history in terms of what we can learn on this current CAP project, AND I specifically mentioned it in the context of supporting the current concept.

If I simply said "I don't like Fighting because we have made two Fighting pokemon before." -- that would be a non-competitive argument (aka "flavor"). But, that's not what I said. I said that Fighting offers almost no specific benefit to the concept, and that Fighting is being considered mainly because it is a good general type. Since Fighting does not directly support the concept -- I mentioned that as a general typing, Fighting offers less room for us to learn new things about the metagame, because we've explored Fighting quite heavily in past CAP's. If the main reason for Fighting is that it is a good general type, then I reiterate my argument that it offers less educational benefit to us. Since education is a primary goal of the project, I think this argument is completely relevant.

I still have not seen any arguments for Fighting that indicate that it will directly help our concept, other than a lone SR resist. Yes, it pairs nicely with Dark for overall competitive balance. Overall balance is good for ALL CONCEPTS, not just this one. But, as I have mentioned many times in the past -- we really need to diverge from making bland, balanced CAP pokemon. Balance is good, but on most recent CAP projects, we have turned "balance" into "uninteresting, middle-of-the-road, jack-of-all-trades pokemon". On this CAP, I'd really like to see us try something a bit riskier.

Unless someone can give me some more good reasons Fighting supports THIS CONCEPT, then I still maintain my argument that it offers very little educationally. And that is not a flavor argument -- it is directly attributable to the CAP project mission.

RE: Poison and Ground
Both of these types DO offer specific support for the concept. And both types have general room for exploration, since neither type is represented very heavily in top OU play. Of the two, I prefer Ground. The combination of Electric immunity, SS immunity, SR resistance, and a nice offensive STAB is what tips the scale for me.

I think some of the weaknesses of Dark/Ground are overblown and can be mitigated, but I agree that bulky waters will likely be a big problem for this pokemon. But, I really don't want a pokemon that has an answer for everything. If bulky waters are an unavoidable problem, so be it. Ground offers very nice offensive and defensive support for THIS CONCEPT, which is what I am most interested in experimenting with.

RE: CAP 9 project pace
I agree that we need to dial it back a little bit. We are going just a little too fast. The purpose of the CAP project is to learn through participation in the process of creating new pokemon. As it says in the Mission Statement, it's about the journey, not the destination. If we rush through the creation, we defeat the point.

However, to be fair to Plus, we did specifically ask the Topic Leader to assert more control over the process and cut through some of the BS that existed in previous CAP's. And Plus has done a fantastic job of guiding this project firmly and decisively.

We just need to make sure we give these discussions time for everyone to participate fully. As I mentioned at the top of this post, I think we have experienced a massive spike in participation on this CAP. Perhaps it is because of the website, I don't know. But it appears there are a lot more people posting on this CAP, and the threads are filling more quickly than in the past. So, based on total posts per thread, it may appear that we are closing threads at "the right time". But, based on time, we are rushing it a bit.

As a general rule, a thread should be left open until the discussion dwindles or the discussion ceases to be productive. At a minimum, threads should be left open for 24 hours. That rule is mainly to allow everyone around the world a chance to post in every thread, if they check the forum at least once a day. But there is no upper bounds to the life of a CAP thread. We DO NOT operate the CAP project on a firm timetable. We take as much time as we need on every step. We generally like to maintain "project momentum", which means we don't like project activity to die down or get boring.

Ultimately, it is up to the TL to decide the project pace. I agree with some previous comments that the project is moving a bit too quickly, and I will confer with Plus privately on the matter. Let's not turn this thread into a Policy Review on project pace. I'm only commenting here, because we are still early in the project, and I know some newcomers may be wondering what is going on.

 

[Blackhawk11]

Voted Fighting because it offers the best offensive capabilities of the choices listed and doesn't leave CAP9 open to a plethora of common weaknesses like Ground will.

Dark/Ground CAP9 will be switching in on Electric-type attacks, possibly forcing a switch and using Pursuit, but it will then draw in a Pokemon who completely counters it (Arghonaut comes to mind as a likely counter to Dark/Ground) and will be forced to switch out, allowing said counter a free turn of set up (do you really want Argho to get a free Substitute or Bulk Up?)

Dark/Fighting CAP9 has only two weaknesses (Flying+Fighting, in case you haven't heard by now), and neither of them are quite as common as the Water and Ice weaknesses that Ground provides. Dark/Fighting also opens up great movepool opportunities like Close Combat, Mach Punch/Vacuum Wave, and STAB Brick Break (which, may I remind you, is very effective in stopping the secondary). Although using Fighting is slightly redundant with previous CAPs, as brought up by Doug, it is the best competitive combination of types. In my eyes, it's the only way to go.

 

[familyguyman]

Electric Immunity? OK, Sandstorm Immunity. A STAB that actually hurts Psychic and Ghost types, some of the most common users of Secondary moves. A STAB that hurts Jirachi a lot more than Fighting ever will. A combined type resist that allows to resist most common status users, except Grass, and Waters.

CAP9's main type is Dark so I don't know what you mean by Psychic and Ghosts, especially since most Ghosts have Levitate. Alright, you got Jirachi, but let's see you hit the Scarf'd version as it U-Turns for Super Effective damage. How does it resist the most common status users when Grass is probably the most common user? Dark/Ground will get eaten alive by Breloom and even Celebi, who can take un-switching Pursuits due to it's good bulk and crush with Leaf Storm.

Not to mention, unlike Fighting, both Poision and Ground actually help to acomplish the CAP's aims, not leaving it 100% to the ability is nice, isn't it? Considering no abilty can stop the Speed drop from Paralysis, and the damage from other passive things reliably, at once. Don't say Posion Heal. It dosen't work without a prior turn, and switching in on Status is something CAP9 should be able to do.

Quick Feet stops the speed drop, but does not prevent full paralysis so you're still incorrect on that notion. Even as a Ground type, switching into Jirachi can easily let CAP9 get paralyzed from Body Slam and then Flinch-Haxed to death, so that's not a truly safe switch in either (not that anything but Ghost or Limber or whatever, really is). I won't mention Poison Heal, even though Breloom doesn't have much issue, but, why can't we leave status up to the ability? There's no law against this and there's a lot we can do with the ability to make up for Thunder Wave immunity. Ground doesn't even let CAP9 reliably beat Rotom-A or other Ghosts who commonly carry WoW, so we'll need an ability to do this anyway.

How about you give me something that Fighting has over Ground, except lack of weaknesses, which will actually help aclomplish the CAP's aims?

Fine, you want an advantage? Usability. Yes, it's theorymon but when CAP9 switches in to take a Latias/Starmie Trick, only to be 1/2HKO'd by Surf, or Celebi Leaf Storm then what was the point of even making it Dark type? Ground totally messes up most of the point of Dark, which was considered a more important type by the community. Hell, it's even weak to the common partner of Electric attacks, Ice. I don't see the point at all. Fighting might not fit the "concept" better but it will at least give CAP9 the ability to not roll over and die to what it's supposed to counter. Poison is probably a better choice than Fighting but both are far superior to Ground IMO.

 

[Maci12]

I voted Fighting. Fighting gives it a resistence to SR, and the Dark type with the addition of Fighting gives it the ability to put the hurt on many secondary damage users, making them more likely to switch out and less likely to use secondary damage.

 

[Korski]

@ Raikaria:

I'm pretty sure Dark hits Ghosts and Psychics well enough (which is why we picked it). Grasses and waters are very predictable secondary users (e.g. Celebi and Vaporeon), so no longer being able to switch into them safely is a major bummer.

Latias is harder to switch into, as most run Surf, as is Ice Beam Blissey and any Porygon2.

Dark/Ground has no immediate way to threaten Blissey, actually, who is probably the most predictable secondary user in the game, without outstanding attack and a good fighting move (which STAB would certainly help).

Ground won't hit Bronzong, nor will it hit Skarmory or Togekiss. You would need a third or fourth attack, even, to reliably threaten a large amount of secondary users, really limiting your ability to use secondary-stopping moves.

You can switch into the Rotoms better, sure, but you can't switch into WoW any better than Fighting, and I'm confident Flash Fire isn't happening ability-wise, leaving it up to the moveset to counter the status, which any typing can take advantage of.

Ground hits Electric, Fire, and Poison types SE exclusively from Fighting's Dark, Ice, and Normal (they both, of course, hit Rock and Steel). I would argue that hitting Dark-types (Umbreon) and Normal-types (Blissey, Snorlax, Porygon2, Smeargle) is more useful than hitting Electric (no secondary users I can think of), Fire (Heatran's still hit SE by Fighting), and Poison (Tentacruel).

Being weak to Fighting, Bug, Grass, Ice, and Water means you'll have to be prepared to take strong hits from both the physical and special attackers (Starmie's Hydro Pump and Gyarados's Waterfall and U-Turn and Grass Knot, etc.), so you'd have to go the defensive route stat-wise to make it able to switch and stay in long enough to do its job.

For something that should be stopping the secondary (i.e. forcing secondary users out, being a threat to secondary moves in general), being easily forced out itself by its common weaknesses sounds counter-intuitive. Fighting, of course, doesn't have this problem.

And, abilities and moves really do have much more potential for stopping the secondary than typing. I think resorting to immunities now shows little faith in anything but typing to fulfill the concept (in other words: we've really only just begun to make this pokemon, so calm down about the concept failing if we don't get a random immunity out of typing). I've already explained in previous posts how this is possible.

That all being said, CaP9 will most likely be Ground-Type, so argument is pretty much useless. I'm sure it can still turn out to fulfill its role, since so much of the project is left. No worries. Just don't act like the whole project hinges on each poll. That's a little silly.

EDIT: familyguyman said a lot of this already. Oh well, the points still stand.

 

[Vividsketch]

I'm disappointed that most people here are not voting for fighting just because of flavour reasons even though they know it would make a great typing with Dark.

Like others, because of my timezone i didn't have time to participate in the discussion so i would like to suggest to make them perhaps longer in the future?

I voted for Fighting even though it's pretty clear it won't make the cut, I will probably vote Ground next poll as i fully agree with what Deck Knight said about the many similarities Poison typing will give it with Drapion.

Quoted for truth! There was so much support for Fighting in the discussion thread. But then DJD makes one on the fly comment about how we've done Fighing types before in CAP, and suddenly every body goes cold on it?? That's Weak!! So what if Fighting is an all round good type. If it compliment the primary type, especial towards the concepts goal, then it should be the one used. And certainly not dismissed on a flavour base.

And my stance on Fighting was already rocking between it and Poison. Doug brought up a very valid point, however- What would fighting teach us? Honestly, nothing. It would teach us that Fighting and Dark make a great pair together. I'm sure we all already knew that. What does Fighting do to "Stop the Secondary", though? STAB Brick Break is the only thing it will be able to do to stop the secondary, and that is limited to breaking screens. Brick Break can accomplish the exact same thing on any other pokemon, albeit without STAB.

"What would fighting teach us?". I hate people sayign this!! What would we learn from Dark/Fighthing?! Last I checked, there isn't a single pokemon of the Dark/Fighting type. The closest is Ghost/Fighting. And we claim to already know all about it?? I know they're not far removed but to say we've nothing to leant about a type combo that has never been done before seems a bit unfair.

Electric Immunity? OK, Sandstorm Immunity. A STAB that actually hurts Psychic and Ghost types, some of the most common users of Secondary moves. A STAB that hurts Jirachi a lot more than Fighting ever will. A combined type resist that allows to resist most common status users, except Grass, and Waters.

Ground is a better STAB to hurt Psychic and Ghosts than Fighting? Sure that's true in any other context, but for a couple things. The first is only a small point, but note that the majority of OU Psychics and Ghosts also happen to be 'Levitaters', thus Earthquake/power is just as useless. But secondly, even more on point, this CAP is already part Dark, which destroys Psychics and Ghost's (especially Pursuit!!) so who really gives a frogs fat arse!!??


And really it IS the fewer weaknesses that make Fighting more useful than Ground on this CAP. We don't want it's effectiness limited because it can switch in an withstand onlsaught from attack types as common an Ice and Water, not to also mention Grass which come from so many of seconday effect abuse pokemon. And that just from a defensive point of view.

It's already been said the Dark/Fightings Dual STAB has almost unparralled type coverage, which really does allow for a greater focus on utility use rather than just offense (though offense is made very viable too). Fighting also offers great variety than just Earthquake/power. Just for a few, Double Kick/Arm Thrust for breaking Subs, Brick Break for Screens, Focus Punch to compliment and play mind games with Sucker Punch an Pursuit.

And all this talk about Thunder Wave immunity (note that Ground Type still doesn't save you from Stun Spore of Body Slam paralysis btw) so what?! Forget Guts, or Limber, give this sucker something like Quick Feet and a decent Attack stat for instance and really make your foes suffer for throwing around Thunder Wave. Punishing the use of secondary effect moves is what is going to discourage their use more than simply being immune to them.


Edit: Beaten to the punch on many points by 'familyguyman' and 'admiral_korski'.

 

[Raikizen]

"What would fighting teach us?". I hate people sayign this!! What would we learn from Dark/Fighthing?! Last I checked, there isn't a single pokemon of the Dark/Fighting type. The closest is Ghost/Fighting. And we claim to already know all about it?? I know they're not far removed but to say we've nothing to leant about a type combo that has never been done before seems a bit unfair.

You hate people bringing up a very valid point, and also reiterating the CAP Mission Statement? There also isn't a single pokemon of the Dark/Ground type, yet I don't see you throwing support over to that. And I said nothing about the type combination, which would be pretty apparent in my post.

Yes, Dark/Fighting would bring a new type to the table, and we would learn interesting little details about how Dark and Fighting interact with one another. My point, however, was: What does fighting bring to the concept of stopping the secondary? How is fighting better at stopping the secondary than the other choices?

The answer to both of those questions: Nothing. Fighting may be balanced, provide a SR resistance, and offer great synergy with Dark, but it does not fulfill the requirements for the Concept, which is to Stop the Secondary.

We will learn nothing new about fighting as a whole for this CAP by choosing it, I believe. How often is poison used as a typing in competatitive pokemon? I'll give you the only two examples in the entire OU tier: Gengar and Tentacruel. Thus, there is a whole lot of room to maneuver and explore with.

 

[Res Ipsa Loquitur]

There was so much support for Fighting in the discussion thread. But then DJD makes one on the fly comment about how we've done Fighing types before in CAP, and suddenly every body goes cold on it?? That's Weak!! So what if Fighting is an all round good type. If it compliment the primary type, especial towards the concepts goal, then it should be the one used. And certainly not dismissed on a flavour base.

Could you go into a little more detail on how you you think Fighting compliments Dark "toward the concept's goal?" As several people have pointed out, most of the arguments for Fighting would apply to literally any Pokemon: a good list of weaknesses/resistances, a powerful STAB, even the SR resistance doesn't contribute toward the goal in any meaningful way. There are already tons of SR-strong Pokemon; one of the most common threats in OU is Lucario, who double resists it, and this has had no meaningful negative impact on the relevance of SR to the meta. One more SR-resistant Pokemon won't do anything. I, too, initially favored Fighting, but I was persuaded against it because it doesn't really add anything.

I voted for Poison because absorbing Toxic Spikes is one of the few major contributions typing can make to the "stop the secondary" concept. Absorbing Thunder Wave and providing an Earthquake STAB are not irrelevant, but they don't really make that big a difference in how a team is able to deal with secondary effects. Gastrodon is already SR-resistant, immune to Thunder Wave, and immune to Trick. It does not "stop the secondary" in any meaningful way, and in fact it is NU. Granted, poor stats are a factor there, but I would like to see something more out of CAP9 than "Gastrodon with BST 555."

 

[X-Act]

We're not going 'just a little too fast' Doug. There was only around 4 hours between the posting of the discussion thread and this thread. If you're in an unfavourable time zone, you're asleep during those 4 hours. I didn't even get an opportunity to suggest a secondary type.

 

[Objection]

I'm not going to argue about the merits of Ground typing any longer since I think I've pretty much exhausted the list and Poison has its merits too. What I am going to say is that, after we decide on the secondary typing, ALL stages of the competitive part of the CAP process after the concept has been decided should have the following question in the original post and all suggestions and votes would have to answer this question:

How will this help CAPX to fulfil the chosen concept?

I think in this thread and the secondary typing discussion thread, a total of 10 people have directly referred to the concept. Everyone else is just trying to make CAP9 the jack of all trades (or, in some people's cases, the master of all). What we're going to end up with is a pokemon with awesome typing, awesome abilities and awesome stats, and then when we come to discuss counters, we come to realise that certain moves that would be critical to the concept have to be dropped otherwise our CAP ends up broken. This is what I saw happen with the last two CAP projects. If we continue to take that kind of direction, we'll learn something all right, but what we learn will have absolutely nothing to do with the initial concept.

Also, I vote for each poll thread to be made no sooner than 24 hours after the related discussion thread has been made. For example, if the primary ability discussion is made on October 7th 18:00 EST, then the primary ability poll should be made no sooner than October 8th 18:00 EST.

 

[Naxte]

We're not going 'just a little too fast' Doug. There was only around 4 hours between the posting of the discussion thread and this thread. If you're in an unfavourable time zone, you're asleep during those 4 hours. I didn't even get an opportunity to suggest a secondary type.

Yeah, I only just noticed that this thread was put up a few hours ago, since I had assumed that there would have been more time placed in between the threads. This thread was definitely put up WAY too fast, IMO, and there wasn't enough time for the discussion to really resolve itself as a result.

Personally, I would really prefer this thread being closed and us actually going back to discussion and let things begin to settle down there first, but since it's already gone this far...

 

[familyguyman]

I'm not going to argue about the merits of Ground typing any longer since I think I've pretty much exhausted the list and Poison has its merits too. What I am going to say is that, after we decide on the secondary typing, ALL stages of the competitive part of the CAP process after the concept has been decided should have the following question in the original post:

How will this allow CAPX to fulfil the chosen concept?

I think in this thread and the secondary typing discussion thread, a total of 10 people have talked about the concept. Everyone else is just trying to make CAP9 the jack of all trades (or, in some people's cases, the master of all). If we take that kind of direction with any CAP project, we'll learn something all right, but what we learn will have absolutely nothing to do with the initial concept.

I think the problem is more:

Typing should prevent status and be offensive vs Ability should prevent stats and typing should be versatile. This might come from general divide between "immunity = stopping secondary" vs "pressure and punishment = stopping secondary". It's two distinct and common ways to view this, that happen to conflict in this case. Once we pick one, it should be much cleaner in terms of discussion.

 

[Objection]

I think the problem is more:

Typing should prevent status and be offensive vs Ability should prevent stats and typing should be versatile. This might come from general divide between "immunity = stopping secondary" vs "pressure and punishment = stopping secondary". It's two distinct and common ways to view this, that happen to conflict in this case. Once we pick one, it should be much cleaner in terms of discussion.

I made a point about this in the other thread I think. Typing and ability are where we'll get immunities from, and stats and movepool are where we'll get the pressure and punishment from. It's not rocket science. Stats and movepool can't net us any immunities, and typing can't directly punish secondary effects unless it is immune to said secondary effects. Ability may be a bit of both though; for example, Sticky Hold will render CAP9 immune to Trick and will punish the user of Trick.

I also say that people aren't thinking about the concept because I have deduced that more weaknesses are better for helping CAP9 to fulfil its concept.

• Stop the Secondary
• We want to discourage people from relying on secondary effects
• Therefore we want to encourage people to rely more on direct damage
• More weaknesses encourages people to rely more on direct damage
• Concept fulfilled

I shall post the above bullet points in the next secondary typing poll.

 

[Vividsketch]

In repsonse to both 'Raikizen' and 'Res Ipsa Loquitur'...

I am completely aware that Dark/Ground is also a new type combination. I'm not arguring either for or againt either Ground or Fighting for that reason. I'm only defending the dismissal of Fighting on the grounds that is has "been explored" before. Though neither type combo has infact been explored at all.

But you want to me to go into more detail as to how Dark/Fighting helps acheive the concept mission? Well I won't bother going it any detail in the offensive synergy, that is obvious to us all already. And yes, I give that both Ground and Poison offer slightly more (at least defesively) in a direct manner toward the concept through Immunities. Ground with Thunder Wave and Sandstorm immunity, Poison with poison and Toxic Spike absorbtion.

But Fighting really does come into it's own, not just offensively, but in regard to it's lack of weaknesses. Being prone to Water, Ice and Grass attacks is just far to great a draw back to be made up by a Thunder Wave immunity (sandstorm immunity is still nice though). Being forced out so often (and often not even allowed in) will make it too hard or not give CAP9 the opportunity to do it's job. And such weaknesses can not (or rather will not) be made up for with abilities for instance. Where as a few status immunities most likely will be.

Dark/Posion on the other hand does boast even fewer weakeness and opportunity to come in and stay in even when compared to Dark/Fighting. One nasty Ground weakness, yes, but still fewer. But in this case it clearly lacks offensive threat. And again, it's immunity benifits really are easily matched with Abilities and Rapid Spin.

I actually prefer Poison over Ground. In my mind the weaknesses that Ground possess while still lacking in offensive out put when compared to Fighing, actually puts in in last place for me. Id be much happier with Poison, if not Fighting.

Yes, Ground and Poison already cover a couple bases just on Type alone. But the don't make up for the short commings when Fighing has ways up still matching them in the things the are suppose to be superior for.

 

[Gorgoroth]

Why is thunderwave immunity important? It hasn't been determined that this is a fast poke yet.

Ground typing offers Sandstorm immunity and stealth rock resist but Magic Guard does the same thing and more.

 

[Walvren]

Yes, Ground and Poison already cover a couple bases just on Type alone. But the don't make up for the short commings when Fighing has ways up still matching them in the things the are suppose to be superior for.

If Fighting can match Ground and Poison at the advantages granted by immunity (Twave+Sandstorm and Toxic) with a lack of resistances and synergy, then that means that *everyone* would go for it. If you are saying that the resistances help us against a Twave hitting, tell us why it's a nonissue. If you can't, that's one point to Ground. If you can't tell us why Toxic isn't a threat to a pokemon with only 2 weaknesses (not counting moves and abilities), don't say it isn't.

How does Fighting match Poison and Ground at their immunities game? Is it all about resistances? You haven't said much at all about stopping the secondary with Fighting. Please elaborate.

Why is thunderwave immunity important? It hasn't been determined that this is a fast poke yet.

Ground typing offers Sandstorm immunity and stealth rock resist but Magic Guard does the same thing and more.

Twave immunity is important because of Dark's role as a punisher. No one said that CAP9 had to speedy, but what about not being able to move? There's a 25% chance we're letting a Tricker off the hook. Also, paralysis in general isn't a good status to be afflicted with. Paralysis almost guarantees being outsped by EVERYTHING and that is a huge deal when it comes to stopping the secondary.

Furthermore, Magic Guard is not going to be used. This is for creative reasons so we don't have an OU Clefable. Otherwise, I'm up for a Dark/Ghost Magic Guard user.