CAP 9 CAP 9 - Part 5 - Build Bias Discussion

[Plus]

Originally ability was up before this -- but this should definitely be addressed first. Sorry for mixing up the process, but I've got the project at hand here.

So yeah. Discuss Physical/Special bias for this CAP. We already established that our CAP is somewhat offensive, in the 0-20 range in X-Act's BSR calculator.

Without further ado, here's our CAP!


For those of you who are wondering what Build bias is, look here for some information. Basically, this discussion thread is here to discuss whether this pokemon should be Physically oriented or Specially oriented.. Just a heads up, however. I am going to decide the Build bias here. Here are some examples:

• Physical: 20 to 40 (Metagross, Hippowdon, Scizor)
• Mixed, possibly Physical: 0 to 20 (Swampert, Salamence, Bronzong)
• Mixed, possibly Special: -20 to 0 (Lucario, Magmortar, Umbreon)
• Special: -40 to -20 (Blissey, Tentacruel, Gengar)

These are just examples of what certain pokemon would fall under. Don't imagine CAP to be as bulky or frail as some of these pokemon. Our pokemon is somewhat offensive. Tyranitar, Machamp, Gyarados fall under this category, for instance.

Here is a BSR calculator.
Here is the information on the formula.

The Rules:

• This is not poll jump paradise. Do not suggest stat spreads in this poll, simply discuss the possibilities. Discussion is strictly Build Bias.

• Threadhogging -- don't do it. What I said in the Secondary Typing Poll applies here even more. Get your point across, defend it, and move on. I shouldn't see the same people posting the same shit over and over again.

• Keep the convo fresh. Don't discuss the same thing over and over again. If you have something new to post, post it. If not, think a little bit harder on your post, and make sure you are not threadhogging.

We'll see how this thread goes before I make any announcements on when I close it.

 

[Apocalypse B-C]

I would suggest mixed, possibly physical. It needs a good Attack stat to make full use of Pursuit - so, with STAB, it hurts even if the target doesn't switch. Enough special power would also be necessary to prevent being totally walled by secondary users like Skarmory and Forretress.

 

[Pink]

Clearly, the way to go is Physical. Pursuit, which everyone fought SO hard for, is physical. EQ is physical. There's really no reason to consider anything but physical.

Mixed isn't very ideal. The CAP can't be passing base stats into everything. People argue it needs to be fast, have high attacks, be able to switch in, so defenses and HP. Adding special to that just diminishes the threat of this Pokemon. We need to focus on one attacking type. Yeah, it would be nice to threaten Hippowdon and Skarmory, but I just don't really see our CAP being able to do that.

 

[Maci12]

Mixed Physical supports the CAP quite well so far. Both Dark & Ground have great Physical Attack options to offer in the way of Crunch & Earthquake, and also, many of the pokemon that are common users of secondary damage effects are severely damaged by physical attacks, (think Blissey, Tentacruel, Pokemon along that line.) and thus, with a Mixed Physical build, it could take down these pokemon.

The reason I see a Mixed build being important is that pokemon like Hippowdon and Skarmory who are Physical walls to be reckoned with lurk at every corner, and thus the CAP would need some form of mixed combat to deal with them.

At first, I thought that Mixed Special would be ideal, but then I thought of the fat bitch that is Blissey. While Skarmory & Hippowdon both are adept walls on the physical side, they are generally restricted to stall. Blissey however is seen on many different types of teams due to its ability to fit several roles. Because of this, a more Physically leaning CAP is important, simply to deal with threats like her.

 

[familyguyman]

I am going with mixed, possibly physical.

Fact is, Pursuit and Earthquake are locks and both are great physical moves so CAP9 should have the stats to reflect this. After that, I imagine the ability to hurt Skarmory and other physically tough secondary users would be very useful to keep the pressure up against many switch ins.

 

[VKCA]

Clearly, the way to go is Physical. Pursuit, which everyone fought SO hard for, is physical. EQ is physical. There's really no reason to consider anything but physical.

If we go straight up physical how is he going to stop skarm/fory from setting up their secondaries?
I think mixed possibly physical should be used so we can make sure he is not walled to death by entry hazard supporter's with high defenses.

 

[zorbees]

I also think Physical is the way to go. People fought hard to get STAB on Pursuit and Earthquake, so I think a Physical spread is best for this. I also think a Physical spread allows CAP9 to sacrifice Sp.Atk instead of bulk, Atk, or Speed. I feel as if Sp.Atk is the most "useless" of these attributes because, although the threat of TrickSpecs exists, it is not common, and you will probably want Pursuit to threaten the Specs user. I doubt a weird mixed set with something like Pursuit/Earthquake/Dark Pulse/[maybe Earth Power, maybe a coverage move] would be very effective at doing a multitude of jobs well, thus, I think a Physical build is best.

Regarding Mixed Physical: I really don't see this as an optimal possibility. Skarmory will really only take super effective hits for a lot of damage, as it walls both STABs, and Pokemon like Hippowdon, Gliscor, and Swampert are likely to get their SR up even if you are mixed (once they do this, they don't really use secondary moves), so hurting Physical walls doesn't really do much to Stop the Secondary. I think a purely Physical set allows for the best combination of power, speed, and bulk, which is why I support Physical.

EDIT: as a Dark Type, it will likely get Taunt which can help against Spikes users. (Yeah, they get a layer as you switch in, but they'd do that anyways if you were mixed.) Physical allows for more bulk and neither Skarmory of Forretress can hurt you much if you are bulky enough.)

 

[Pink]

The only thing they set up is spikes, and having Rapid Spin is fine. I really don't think this CAP can afford to invest in every stat and do its job well enough... It has some common weaknesses, and will have to be able to switch in a lot. Being able to stop Special Walls that set up is just not going to be possible, IMO. Maybe giving him (sorry for poll jump) taunt, which other darks have, would be the best option to stop that from happening, but other wise, I don't see him being able to invest in multiple stats.

 

[TekkenStorm]

I'm against for Physical because of the many Physical walls using secondary moves like Hippowdon, Skarmory, Forretress, Gliscor etc. which are all OU.

Mixed Physical is the way to go, we should give this atleast some respectable Special Attack stat to dent heavily the ones mentioned above.

 

[HD]

I would like CaP9 to be Physical or Mixed, Possibly Physical.

The reason for this is because most common status users have high special defense. Pokemon like Blissey, Latias, Cressilia, etc... have amazingly high Special Defense, but are lacing in the Defensive department. So I say we take a move to abuse this fact. A high attack, and average Special Attack (think Mamoswine) would help us dearly.
We have a high-powered STAB pursuit, plus amazing secondary STAB. What more could you ask for?

 

[WarsJosh]

If we go straight up physical how is he going to stop skarm/fory from setting up their secondaries?
I think mixed possibly physical should be used so we can make sure he is not walled to death by entry hazard supporter's with high defenses.

There are other ways to force those walls to switch out (minor poll jump here, but an obvious one would be Roar). Right now we need to play to our strengths, and by sacrificing Sp.Atk we can come in more and better threaten secondary users besides of physical walls.

 

[Cybeny]

I'd say either Mixed, Possibly Physical or Physical.

Its going to need to be mainly physical in its offense due to its STAB Pursuit and Earthquake, however a competitive Special Attack is going to be needed so that the opponent doesnt just throw in a Physical Wall at it, like Skarmory, who are common users of Secondary Moves.

However, defensively, it is going to need a good Special Defense, as Special Attackers also commonly use Seconday Moves. Although, CAP9's weaknesses mean that its Special Defense may not be that useful. Physical defense would be useful, but should not be piroity.

I think overall Mixed, possibly Physical is going to be the best due to the style being Somewhat Offensive which is helped due to its great Physical STABS, but it will need some sort of Special Attack and Special Defense.

 

[Deck Knight]

I've run over some spreads through a calculator and in order to provide an immediate threat without relying on an ability like Guts requires this to optimize one stat or the other. Because Pursuit and Earthquake are Physical moves, I believe Physical offers the best options.

I have not run complete Calcs on the mixed, possibly physical spread, but I'm barely scraping by calcs I like with the Bias to Physical spread.
Note that even with the bias it doesn't need to be impotent in Special Attack. You can sacrifice a certain level of Special Defense if you still want decent SA, or alternatively base most of your physical stats in Defense to keep the build Moderate to Offense. Basically, there are workarounds.

EDIT: I've tweaked the spread around, and although Mixed, possibly physical sacrifices more bulk than I'd like, it's doable while maintaining the new Attack I've settled on. The slight difference is quite amazing, and the calcs are hitting where they should.

 

[dorkknight23]

I would offer support to Physical or Mixed, possibly Physical, because both Dark and Ground's offensive STAB moves are primarily Physical. There are few very Special Dark or Ground offensive moves (Dark Pulse, Earth Power, Mud Bomb, Mud Shot, Mud Slap, and Hidden Power). So, CAP 9 would benefit most from Physical moves, but at the same time, having a decent Special Attack might be useful for pulling out one of the aforementioned moves as well.

 

[KCchiefs]

It has to be Physical. Its main type was selected as dark for a) to "stop" trick and b) based on the discussion, for STAB pursuit. Now it would be pointless to pretty much make pursuit worthless by making this a special pokemon.

 

[Maci12]

I'm not totally against the idea of straight Physical because it gives the pokemon a chance to have a bulkier spread than a mixed attacker would have, but I'm a devoted OU player and I see so many Hippowdon, Skarmory, and Gliscor (especially Gliscor), that would shit all over this pokemon with a straight physical build. Mixed Physical gives it the chance to strike back at these pokemon while still maintaining excellent STABs in Pursuit, Earthquake, and Crunch.

 

[Solstice]

Im for Mixed, Possibly Physical. One aspect of that is entry hazards, most dominantly Spikes. The Pokemon that usually set up spikes are Forretress and Skarmory, both resist physical, with mixed we can throw a move in to help stop them.

 

[Illithian]

I would go with Mixed with a very slight bias to physical, somewhere around 10. There are a plethora of move options that would work very well on the special side and could have a lot of surprise factor, along with giving this pokemon a lot of versatility.

 

[Mattman324]

Fully physical seems to be the best way to go. If it needs to hit a physical wall (like Skarmory) it can always use a high powered special move (like fire blast. If Snorlax can, then so can this)

Besides, I don't want this CAP to be of average stats. It needs to have a few small, and a few large. We've done averages for almost every CAP, the line needs to be drawn here.

 

[Sandal8]

It doesn't have to hit obscenely hard, as Pursuit has 80 Base Power and would ideally hit whoever's switching out SE, and STAB EQ has 150 BP; going for Mixed, possibly Physical. I'd rather it's not too biased either way.

Even if it is heavily biased towards Physical, the option to go special as a viable option would be nice, as with Tyranitar, who's huge bulk and decent Special Attack (It's 5 less than Jirachi) is sometimes overlooked.

 

[Magmortified]

Physical

Working to optimize the solid Physical STAB we've given this Pokemon is a solid plus. We don't really need Special Attack so much. Maybe I can see this Pokemon being given a fair Special Defense, but I feel the focus should be Physical here.

Taking on physically defensive secondary-users with Physical could be done depending on what else we give this. Forretress, for instance, could be felled with a well-placed Firepunch. Skarm could be worn down with Firepunch or Thunderpunch and, if it's slow, hit it while it's roosting with EQ.

 

[Maci12]

Physical

Working to optimize the solid Physical STAB we've given this Pokemon is a solid plus. We don't really need Special Attack so much. Maybe I can see this Pokemon being given a fair Special Defense, but I feel the focus should be Physical here.

Taking on physically defensive secondary-users with Physical could be done depending on what else we give this. Forretress, for instance, could be felled with a well-placed Fire Punch.

Forretress is not the only bulky pokemon out there; you neglected Skarmory who lacks a 4x weakness to Fire & has an instant recovery move in Roost, Hippowdon who is hardly ever 3HKOd by most Ice Punches & also has an instant Recovery move, Gliscor, who can take one moderately powered Ice Punch, and has the speed to U-Turn out of most bad situations. Also, I'm fairly sure that many Fire Punches don't OHKO Forretress, in which case, he still gets up one or two layers of entry hazards (if CAP 9 is switching in).

These pokemon all have a common theme: low Special Defense. By hitting them with a mixed counter, you can scare them off 90% of the time, simply by bluffing.

Now I'm not suggesting anything in terms of movepool to cause switches, I'm just saying that it would be highly beneficial to give it a Physical Mixed stat bias so that it CAN scare these threats.

 

[ferron]

mixed, possibly physical is my personal choice. most of the secondary users are special, so you need to focus on their weaker side, and this will give you the wiggle room to increase your SpD.

actually, after a little tweaking, you can still pull off a good SpD in Physical, so i'm good with either.

 

[Leman]

I'm gonna say Mixed, possibly physical. I'd like to see a decent SDef stat. Most of the common Trick users are Specially based (Gengar, Latias etc.), so being able to switch in to those is cool.

 

[ReysonTheNoble]

Mixed, Possibly Physical.
Everyone is thinking only about offense, but this pokemon can be pretty defensively bulky while also falling under Somewhat Offensive. Mixed, Possibly Physical gives us a lot of wiggle room in making a pokemon that can come in multiple times and deal damage to secondary users. It gives us the ability to invest into Sp. Atk to hit Skarmory and Forretress and Sp. Def to come in on Celebi, Starmie, Latias, and Rotom. Going completely physical limits us severely, as we can only add so much into Sp. Atk and Sp. Def before we go over the limit, but it doesn't really hinder our Attack, or even our Defense that much.