CAP Buff 2 - Part 3 - Pyroak Buff Discussion

[quziel]

This thread serves to outline the context of the mon being buffed, in terms of its original design intent, historic usage, current usage, and any other factors surrounding the mon that must be discussed before buffing or changing it in any way. This thread should also include discussion of the important updates this mon has gotten in terms of the SM-era updates, early gen 8 updates, and IoA tutor move additions. After discussion of context is concluded buff submissions and discussion will open.

The leader for this buff process is Lasen

The mon being discussed is Pyroak, whose stats, typing, and ability are listed below.



Typing: Fire / Grass

Abilities: Rock Head / Battle Armor / White Smoke

Stats: 120/ 70 / 105 / 95 / 90 / 60

Concept:

This CAP was not created with a concept. In the past it has fulfilled roles such as Dragon Dance (briefly before gen 4 nerfs), and a bulky wall that primarily answers offensive steel types.

Current Smogdex Set:

Pyroak @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Battle Armor
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Lava Plume
- Toxic
- Synthesis

I will now handle this over to Lasen to make his first post.

 

[Lasen]

Hello everyone! I'd like to start off by saying I am elated to be in the position of Buff Leader of Pyroak and I hope that I can make this community proud and Pyroak into something even remotely viable!



Pyroak has been one of -if not THE most underwhelming CAPs for what feels like at least 2 generations now and, as quziel mentions in the OP, was created all the way back in 2008 when we didn't have any strict rules to abide by, so unlike my predecessor(s) I don't have much to build off of besides historical knowledge. While Pyroak found play as a Steel- and Fairy-type resist during ORAS, and even as a Dragon Dance sweeper during DPP thanks to now-reverted buffs, it currently lacks a purpose. But this isn't strictly negative - we're actually in a position to take this Buff Process a lot of different ways!

In typical CAP fashion, I'd like to start this off with a few questions to see where we'll go with this:

• What does Pyroak's current movepool and typing combination imply it could do?
• What is currently gatekeeping Pyroak from being successful in any given role? How do we mitigate said weakness(es)?
• What roles could Pyroak feasibly fill in the CAP metagame?

This is all I have to say for now. Reminder this isn't the time to formally submit changes! That will come at a later date after we've discussed how Pyroak should be handled.

 

[dex]

• What does Pyroak's current movepool and typing combination imply it could do?

I think Pyroak has a sort of mismatch between its typing, movepool, and ability. Its movepool and stats would lead to you to believe it should be a defensive wall and utility user; however, its typing, which is pretty bad defensively, says otherwise. Now there are defensive Pokemon with not-great typings (Astrolotl is a good example of this), but these Pokemon are picked up by either one of or both crazy stats and a crazy ability.

• What is currently gatekeeping Pyroak from being successful in any given role? How do we mitigate said weakness(es)?

The dominance of the two defensive Fire-types, Heatran and Astrolotl, makes it hard for Pyroak to be successful even if it had a niche to fill. Alas, it is a rocker that loses to most defoggers, a seeder that can't stay on the field, and a grass type that comes with none of the good yet all of the bad defensive qualities of grass types. I don't think changing its typing should be on the table, which leaves us with the next most drastic option: a powerful ability.

• What roles could Pyroak feasibly fill in the CAP metagame?

Pyroak could do anything, really. The mon doesn't have a set role now, so we can do whatever with it. To minimize how much is changed, I would prefer to look at defense/utility roles first, but honestly anything should be on the table here.

 

[Amamama]

• What does Pyroak's current movepool and typing combination imply it could do?
• What is currently gatekeeping Pyroak from being successful in any given role? How do we mitigate said weakness(es)?
• What roles could Pyroak feasibly fill in the CAP metagame?

1) Imo Fire/Grass is a decent Attacking type with solid neutral coverage just through its High Power STABs stabs, that becomes devastating with the addition of Ground coverage, which Pyroak possesses on both biases.
The support movepool isn’t too deep but Stealth Rock and Toxic look like really good moves on a mon, that can in theory be threatening to several defoggers and toxic immunes in the Tier, lastly leech seed is a move that pyroak was essentially build around, so maybe that’s something to take into consideration.

Imo these traits hint a a offensively inclined wall breaker, that is capable of putting pressure on the opposing team with its excellent coverage and powerful utility moves.

2) At the same time it’s stats imply a more defensive role, that pyroak often tries to fill.
With big bulk and low offenses as well as speed.

At the Moment though, it lacks the power to be threatening to defensive Pokémon because of underwhelming offensive stats and the Speed and/or survivability to deal with offensive Pokémon, due to a typing with almost no valuable resists, leaving it as a liability during team building as well as in game.

How we mitigate this, will almost certainly also be a decision about what role we want it to play.
We can lean into it’s excellent offensive traits and enhance its offensive power with stats or ability buffs or try to create a more attractive defensive profile, probably through a typing change or strong defensive ability.

3) I think Pyroak does have the potential to fill both offensive or more defensive roles depending on the buff, but it’s predisposition is clearly in favor of a more offensive role, with some defensive capabilities. So in my opinion a tanky build with solid defensive profile, that is able to dish out strong hits, seems like the best option.

 

[kjnjkmjk1]

What does Pyroak's current movepool and typing combination imply it could do?
The biggest thing that stands out about Pyroak's movepool is its three-move coverage, with Grass and Fire STABs combined with Ground coverage. It also has access to some useful utility, including Stealth Rock, Leech Seed, status moves in Toxic and Will-O-Wisp, and phazing with Dragon Tail and Roar. Its typing is fairly decent offensively, notably nailing Ground, Steel, and Water types while not being too widely resisted (only Dragon and Fire types resist both types), indicating a possible offensive direction.

What is currently gatekeeping Pyroak from being successful in any given role? How do we mitigate said weakness(es)?
Its stats, while providing excellent bulk (120/105/90), are rather paltry on the offensive side (70/95/60). On the other hand, its typing affords it few useful resistances, as it is a Grass type with none of the traditionally useful Grass resists (namely Water and Ground), and a Fire type with none of the traditionally useful Fire resists (namely Fire and Ice), and its movepool is lacking in recovery beyond the unreliable Synthesis, which greatly hampers its ability to be an defensive Pokemon. While it does have some nice attacking moves and a usable STAB combination, the aforementioned poor offensive stats combine with a lack of useful boosting moves beyond Dragon Dance to stymie any offensive presence as well.

In short, its stats say one thing, but its typing and movepool don't support what the stats are saying. It also doesn't help that its abilities are not particularly effective and generally don't push it in any direction. In order to mitigate these weaknesses, we will likely have to pick a direction (more offensive or pure defensive) and stick to it, changing the aspects that go against that direction in the process.

What roles could Pyroak feasibly fill in the CAP metagame?
I agree with Amamama that Pyroak's best shot is as an offensive-leaning tank. Pyroak has been trying to fill a defensive role for much of its history, but is held back both by competition with better Fire-types, as mentioned by dex, and by its poor defensive typing. It's not impossible for us to salvage the defensive direction, especially given the variety of abilities that let it get back some of its lost resistances and the boost that reliable recovery by itself could give. However, I think an offensive direction that leans more into the strengths of its typing and three-move coverage while also taking advantage of its natural bulk seems like the path of least resistance to viability (or at least usability).

 

[Astra]

What does Pyroak's current movepool and typing combination imply it could do?

I could potentially see some offensive and defensive niches Pyroak can fulfill with its typing and movepool, but other aspects hold it back heavily from it succeeding in any of them, which I'll get into in the next question. Offensively, Pyroak has some tools that imply for it a role as a strong attacker that can utilize recoil moves more freely, given its access to Rock Head and strong STAB moves in Flare Blitz and Wood Hammer. Defensively, it appears to be a decent wall that could honestly go either physical or special that can utilize residual damage to its advantage. As a I mentioned, though, there's a lot of things about Pyroak that prevent it from being good at any of these roles.

What is currently gatekeeping Pyroak from being successful in any given role? How do we mitigate said weakness(es)?

Offensively, Pyroak's main gripe is that, well, its Attack is horrible for something that would want to utilize recoil moves. Even with access to Swords Dance, you would much rather want to run something that has immediate power or isn't still underwhelming after a boost. Its Speed is also way too low for its lack of power, and its decent bulk barely makes up for that.

Defensively, Pyroak is simply outclassed by other similar Pokemon that fulfill a similar role to it more efficiently. The most prominent example of simply better competition for Pyroak is Heatran, which has a better typing defensively, an ability better than any of Pyroak's by a mile, a better offensive presence even when running defensive sets, and more. This obviously isn't Pyroak's only gripe, but it's definitely the main blockade from it ever being relevant in the metagame. It even has the right tools for it to play a similar role to Heatran, but Heatran is simply just better to run in this metagame and simply better in general.

Additionally, as a general point, Pyroak lacks any sort of useful ability it can really take advantage of. My comments on its lack of offensive potential should imply why Rock Head is rather useless. Battle Armor and White Smoke, while has rather small positive effects for a defensively role, are simply not powerful enough to compete with Pokemon that have abilities that are much better, such as Heatran with Flash Fire and Astrolotl with Regenerator.

What roles could Pyroak feasibly fill in the CAP metagame?

This may be a mildly hot take, but I think that Pyroak could potentially be made into an option that could sometimes be preferred over running Heatran, or at least have aspects that Heatran can't fulfill so easily. The most immediate example I can give is how despite not having as many resistances as Heatran, Pyroak's weaknesses are much less metagame-relevant as Heatran's, particularly having a neutrality to Water and Ground. Going this route, however, would be pretty challenging comparing how much Heatran can already do in the metagame and how much we would need to alter Pyroak in order to make it a niche option over it on certain teams depending on the circumstance. Like what dex said, though, we have the ability to make this into anything we want, with some options requiring more alterations than others; with the tools it already has, however, I agree as well that we should look into a more defensive utility role first.

 

[Jewvia]

• What does Pyroak's current movepool and typing combination imply it could do?

Its movepool and stat spread imply that it should be a defensive wall. Its typing and abilities however are much more offensive, and even then mediocre. A Rock Head Fire/Grass with a poor speed and attack stat cannot really hit most things, especially when it gets walled by its own competition in the field of Fire types. So that leaves us with the awkward defensive typing of Fire/Grass that at least does stop Fairies and Electric types, but doesn't have much else in the way of resists, and relies on Battle Armor by default as its only usable ability.

• What is currently gatekeeping Pyroak from being successful in any given role? How do we mitigate said weakness(es)?

As said earlier, the mismatch between mediocre offensive typing/abilities and defensive movepool/stats. The Pokemon leaves a lot to be desired in its kit, and it gets hard walled by its own competition in Heatran, Astrolotl, or even Moltres. This results in it being a poor Fire type to bring in the team amid better options. The best way to mitigate the problems it to fix the mismatch. Either give it more offensive movepool/stats/ability with a way to either stand out from the competition or answer them directly, or go more in the way of defensiveness and replace an ability or even hyper further optimize its stats and movepool.

• What roles could Pyroak feasibly fill in the CAP metagame?

Feasibly? We are typing locked, so either we just overhaul our stats/abilities/movepool and go for a bulky attacker, or we settle for the mediocre defensive typing and try to optimize our stats, movepool, and ability in a way to emphasize a tankier playstyle. One thing we have going for us over Heatran and Astrolotl is reliable recovery in Synthesis and Leech Seed, which could be something to lean into.

 

[Da Pizza Man]

What does Pyroak's current movepool and typing combination imply it could do?

The biggest thing I would say is that Grass/Fire is a pretty nice offensive typing. Looking at the current viability list, the only mons that don't get hit at least neutrally by this combination and are ranked at least B or higher are some fire types (, , , ) and Pajantom, which for the most part can be dealt with by using coverage that we already have access too (Earthquake/Earth Power and Rock Slide both do a pretty good job at rounding out out coverage). Having access to Rock Head alongside powerful STAB recoil moves such as Flare Blitz and Wood Hammer play into this even more. Our movepool also has a decent number of defensive tools such as Stealth Rock, Leech Seed, and Will-O-Wisp, implying that we could also perform well in a more defensive role or as a bulky wallbreaker.

What is currently gatekeeping Pyroak from being successful in any given role? How do we mitigate said weakness(es)?

The biggest thing hurting Pyroak offensively is its terrible offensive stats. 70/95/60 was barely good enough for Gen 4, and it certainly hasn't been able to withstand four entire generations of powercreep, and neither Swords Dance or Dragon Dance are really able to make up for that in our current state. Meanwhile, when it comes to defensive side, Grass/Fire is incredibly bad. Like kjnkjmk1 already said, Grass/Fire has basically none of the upsides of either Grass or Fire while retaining most of the downsides. Its Stealth Rock weak, it doesn't have many useful resistances, and its weak to a very common offensive type right now (Even before we introduced the two Venomicon forms into the metagame, we still had a good number of offensive flying types in the metagame (, , , ). Its also very heavily outclassed by and , and I would even consider using before I would use Pyroak. Offensively I think we could improve Pyroak by just either increasing its stats or giving it a more powerful ability, while defensively I just think is a lost cause.

What roles could Pyroak feasibly fill in the CAP metagame?

For the most part kjnkjmk1 said what I wanted to say in regards to this part in that we should be looking to fufill an offensive role instead of a defensive one. Pyroak's peak, and pretty much only time it saw a great amount of success, was before it got nerfed in Gen 4, where it functioned as a very effective Dragon Dance sweeper, and I think the best way to buff mons is to look at what historically made them good and try to update that for the current generation. (By the way I don't count Pyroak being A rank on the original ORAS Viability Ranking list. Even when I was 16 years old and ORAS was the current generation, I thought that was too high for it, and both the playerbase and the ORAS metagame has evolved quite a bit in these last several years, and we where we realize that it's not viable at all in ORAS CAP). For what it's worth, Embirch also sees a good deal of success in CAP LC for having many of the same offensive virtues that I talked about Pyroak having in this post (I'm well aware that it's a different metagame and that the babies can be more successful in CAP LC than their parents are in regular CAP, but its still something to consider thinking about in my opinion). That being said, while I do think that ideally to try to recreate our status as a sweeper would be the best route to take, I also think that trying to serve more as a wallbreaker or as a tank would be a viable route to take as well.

 

[boo836]

• What does Pyroak's current movepool and typing combination imply it could do?
  
  Pyroak's states implies it is meant to act as a wall. Its typing and ability implies it is meant to be an offensive juggernaut, and its movepool suggests it wants to be able to do either role terribly. It gets Rock Head, two 120 bp recoil STAB and Dragon Dance paired with 70 attack and 60 speed. It has stats for a wall role without having access to reliable healing.
  
  
  
  
• What is currently gatekeeping Pyroak from being successful in any given role? How do we mitigate said weakness(es)?
  
  
  It main weakness is that Pyroak lacks any real means of constituting a threat. It really doesn't have much going for it that isn't accomplished by better Pokemon like Ferrothorn or Heatran. All of its abilities are functionally useless, its BST is already on the low end of Gen 8 OU and its support movepool is shallow. The "redeeming" feature of Pyroak is its offensive movepool that is unusable with 70/95 attacking stats. Simply put. it's not viable because it lacks any real purpose and hasn't enjoyed the same generational buffs experienced by previous CAPs like Cawmodore or Syclant.
  
  
  The first step to mitigation would be to determine what exactly Pyroak should do, and then to give it useful abilities that make its usage definitive for those roles. If we want a tank, we should be adjusting its stats to ensure it hits the right calculations. Say, for example we want a better Melmetal check than Heatran. To those ends, we might give Pyroak Flame Body, recovery, and a boost in stats outside of HP and Speed.
  
  
• What roles could Pyroak feasibly fill in the CAP metagame?
  
  Pyroak currently has no real usable niche and won't without significant and drastic buffs that will completely change how Pyroak functions. It has the STABs to make a viable (and definitive!) sun sweeper. We could make Pyroak the first Fire type with Chlorophyll, and boost its attacking stats. Maybe we want an offensive utility tank that can set Drought as a bulky setter, or Grassy Terrain, as a Steel type resist for Grass Spam. It could also make for an annoyer similar to Whirlpool Tapu Fini by using Fire Spin or Snap Trap (which is even better than Fire Spin). But without a new, clearly defined purpose and useful abilities, Pyroak isn't going to get any better.

 

[snake]

What does Pyroak's current movepool and typing combination imply it could do?

I know this will sound weird, but I'm going to say it. Pyroak actually has a lot of individual components going for it, but it can't fit any of those components together very well. In particular, Pyroak has really strong coverage in STAB Fire + STAB Grass + Ground coverage. Nothing in the metagame really comes close to having that coverage without having to make some pretty intense sacrifice. Of course, Pyroak does have good choice of defensive moves, but we've seen defensive Pyroak's lack of success over the years. Thus, I'm going to argue that Pyroak's most unique trait is its access to STAB Fire / STAB Grass / Ground coverage, and that we should aim to leverage that as best as possible.

What is currently gatekeeping Pyroak from being successful in any given role? How do we mitigate said weakness(es)?

Pyroak's bulk is 120 HP / 105 Def / 90 SpD. Ignore Pyroak's defensive profile for a second - that's a pretty insane natural bulk. However, what's holding Pyroak back from being a defensive stalwart is that Fire and Grass cancel out key resistances that the individual types have. Pyroak is a Fire type that doesn't resist Fire-type moves and a Grass type that doesn't resist Water- and Ground-type moves. It's a huge reason why Heatran and Astrolotl outclass it as Fire-types with a defensive component.

Pyroak also cannot leverage its STAB Fire / STAB Grass / Ground coverage because its offensive power is just too low. It's simply not worth running all three of those moves because they don't do enough damage to the opponent. So it cannot leverage its amazing offensive coverage well.

Finally, Pyroak has never really had an ability that helps it accomplish anything. Rock Head is working with 70 Attack, Battle Armor just reduces variance a little, and White Smoke barely affects anything too. Pyroak's current state doesn't leverage any of these abilities well at all, and even if it did use Dragon Dance + Rock Head when it was revised in Gen 4, Pyroak's stat spread had to be completely overhauled for that to happen. The bottom line is that Pyroak could really use a good ability to make things work better.

Tying everything together, I think what's gatekeeping defensive Pyroak is the fact that other Pokemon (Heatran and Astrolotl, namely) do "defensive" Fire-type better and that its defensive profile does not take advantage of its frankly amazing defensive stat spread. There are very few paths that we can take that will feasibly allow purely defensive Pyroak to work. Thus...

What roles could Pyroak feasibly fill in the CAP metagame?

In my opinion, Pyroak needs a new ability that allows it to utilize its impressive offensive coverage. Pyroak should be a tanky wallbreaker that can leverage its impressive bulk to fire off offensive STAB Fire / STAB Grass / Ground coverage. If it's pressuring the opponent with damage, then its bulk actually goes a lot further than it would with a defensive spread. There are a few abilities that allow us to do this without ripping up Pyroak's stat spread to shreds, which I'm excited to discuss when Lasen wants us to discuss actual options.

 

[shnowshner]

What does Pyroak's current movepool and typing combination imply it could do?

Pyroak has all of the following in its movepool:

• Strong and/or reliable STAB moves on both attacking sides.
• Ground coverage in Earth Power and Earthquake.
• Useful status moves like Stealth Rock, Toxic, Wisp, and Leech Seed.
• Flare Blitz/Wood Hammer + Rock Head
• Status-spreading attacking moves in Lava Pulme and Scorching Sands
• Rock Polish
• Physical setup in Dragon Dance and Swords Dance

It's meager 70 Base Attack leaves a lot to be desired: although Flare Blitz does hit harder than Flamethrower at equal investment, the former's worse PP, reliance on Rock Head to avoid recoil, and the abundance of anti-Physical metagame trends make it a lot harder to justify, especially when Special sets have about equal strengths.

95 Special Attack still isn't impressive by today's standards, but is enough to get by with strong STAB and powerful utility attacks as can be seen by Tapu Fini. Pyroak's low Speed, however, holds it back from really working as an offensive threat unless it finds time to setup.

The big selling point on its stat spread is its defenses. 120/105/90 bulk is really impressive and helps a lot in letting Pyroak tank hits, and gives it flexibility on how it wants to invest and what Pokemon it can comfortably stay in on or switch into.

What is currently gatekeeping Pyroak from being successful in any given role? How do we mitigate said weakness(es)?

Pyroak is attempting to be two different Pokemon at the same time. As a Grass, it doesn't exactly beat Waters or Grounds, the two types you generally want a Grass type to be good into, and it faces an awful vulnerability to all hazards and chip damage, notably Stealth Rock. All of the viable Grasses have some means of negating chip, whether through movepool, ability, or typing, which give them a lot more staying power. On the flip side, bulky Fire types tend to struggle, as despite having the second-most resistances in the game, Fire has three crippling weaknesses. Adding the Grass type does more harm than good: it adds three more weaknesses and removes the useful resistances to Fire and Ice.

What you end up with is a Pokemon that faces danger from too many things at once to reasonably remain on the field. It could be a neat Rocker, but every common defogger is generally at an advantage versus it. Even Corviknight, who you'd think would be a prime target, naturally outspeeds and threatens big damage onto Pyroak with Brave Bird. It has the coverage to hit most Pokemon SE or neutrally, but lacks good offensive stats to make that work. It's a wall that has to rely on the inconsistent, low-PP Synthesis to stay healthy, and is also a wall that doesn't really beat anything.

A lot of Pokemon thay it could stand up against, it actually just loses to or gets crippled by. For example, Pyroak looks like it could be a good Ferrothorn switch-in, but it can't safely come in on it lest it get hit by Knock Off or Toxic, both of which wear down Pyroak over time. This is a problem that extends into practically any good matchup it appears to have: Pyroak is simply too easy to cripple and exploit with chip damage, and this inability to stay in safely versus utility Pokemon is what I consider to be the main issue with it right now, even beyond the obviously lacking offensive capabilities. Trying to find opportunities to get Pyroak in safely is hard, and then having it do something worthwhile is a task on its own.

What roles could Pyroak feasibly fill in the CAP metagame?

Its unique STAB combo sticks out: a Grass that is able to beat the opponent's Grass-types has potential, especially with its array of useful support moves, chief among them being Leech Seed, which is primarily blocked by the type Pyroak matches up well against, in a vacuum. The added Ground coverage is huge for it, as it takes care of other Fire-types that would want to come in on it. Ground/Fire is a great offensive duo on its own, but having Grass STAB means that the bulky Waters and Grounds which would normally be tasked with handling this combo are now in serious danger.

Pyroak is, quite literally, directionless in design. There's a lot we can take this in since little is actually restraining what we can do. You could legitimately buff Pyroak into a Stallbreaker, a Setup Sweeper, or a Tank, and not really need to change much about it to accomplish that.

 

[LucarioOfLegends]

What does Pyroak's current movepool and typing combination imply it could do?

Its offensive coverage through STABs and Earth Power is actually really good and not a ton of stuff naturally resists it either. It also has a solid support move in Stealth Rock and Lava Plume is also a very interesting option it has if it wanted to drop a coverage move for something more utility focused. Add in Rock Head which would mean recoilless Flare Blitz and Wood Hammer and this stuff in general implies a more offensive mon.

It also has some crazy good bulk. 120/105/95 bulk is scary good stuff and in the right hand could make a formidable wall. Certainly its offenses aren't too great but it still has utility like Stealth Rock and recovery in Synthesis to make up for it. This implies a much more defensive mon.

See the problem?

What is currently gatekeeping Pyroak from being successful in any given role? How do we mitigate said weakness(es)?

What Pyroak suffers from more than anything is its trying to be two different roles at once and it is succeeding at neither. Specifically, it suffers from a problem many cartridge Ice-types suffer from: trying to be a defensively oriented mon with a type not built to be defensive. Fire/Grass just is not a good defensive typing at all as it loses all of the resistances you actually want and maintains the weaknesses that'd you want removed. Electric-, Fairy-, Grass-, and Steel-type resistances are nice to have for certain, but they are not the most common typings in the meta and the resistances you lose make you basically worse than every other Fire- and Grass-type in the meta defensively. Fire/Grass is an offensive type, and just doesn't work when applied in a more defensive context.

On the other hand, it can't leverage any of its offensive coverage advantages because it has no offensive stats to actually work with. Good luck clicking Rock Head Flare Blitz when you have the same attack stat as Dunsparce. Its just way too low to make even Dragon Dance workable for it, especially since base 60 Speed isn't doing it any favors either. 95 Special Attack is better at least, but nowhere near enough to actually become any sort of full offensive mon.

Finally, its abilities are kind just...there? Rock Head is crippled by the attack stat, but Battle Armor and White Smoke are situationally useful at best and complete non-factors at worst. They just don't help assist Pyroak in either of the directions it wants to go and don't give it any sort of boons that would actually let it function.

Typing is almost completely off the table for changes, so ability buffs are mostly where its at

What roles could Pyroak feasibly fill in the CAP metagame?

While I would love to be optimistic about how Pyroak has both offensive and defensive options for what roles it could fill, I think Fire/Grass just shoots itself in the foot far, far too much to give it a consistent defensive niche when stuff like Astrolotl, Ferrothorn, and Heatran cover what it would want to do magnitudes better. Do I think there are ways to make it have a defensive niche? Yes, but the options are far slimmer.

Instead, I do think leaning into the offensive side with the defensive stats being a major supplement is the right play. It doesn't suddenly turn Pyroak into Zeraora and keeps a lot of the strengths that Pyroak previously had, just mitigating a lot of its weaknesses. As for how it actually functions offensively, that's what this discussion is actually for.

 

[1BluLizard]

What does Pyroak's current movepool and typing combination imply it could do?
What is currently gatekeeping Pyroak from being successful in any given role? How do we mitigate said weakness(es)?
What roles could Pyroak feasibly fill in the CAP metagame?

1. Pyroak has a lot of strong offensive moves with a lot of good coverage and a good offensive ability. Its typing removes a lot of fire and grasses resistances to make a Pokemon that has a lot of neutral hits and some weaknesses that are not good for it. However, Grass/Fire is a very good type offensively as it hits a lot of things, and with its coverage and status moves and even Dragon Dance, it looks like it should be an offensive pokemon with some defensive utility with toxic, stealth rocks, and leech seed.
,
2. The problem is that Pyroak is very weak defensively because of its typing and cannot succeed there well, and synthesis only has 8PP instead of the normal 16 for recovery making it easier to stall out. Because of this it could turn to being offensive, but it does not pack the attack power to do that, with only 70 attack and 60 speed making dragon dance not super useful, and its 95 more usable special attack still isn't amazing. Instead it has the stats of a tank but the movepool and typing of an offensive Pokemon. This could be mitigated by leaning into one side and changing some stats around to fit the best role, or buffing stats, or a good defensive ability to help its tank side. I don't think we should be able to change the typing at all, so to work around its typing defensively it would need something like extra stats even or a very strong ability to make up for its typing.

3. Pyroak could fill both a Tank and either a Wallbreaker or a Setup Sweeper. With access to Dragon Dance and really good coverage, if it had better attack and speed, it could setup and sweep, or instead just be a wallbreaker with its coverage and utility like Leech seed and Toxic. Its Tank side could stall other Pokemon away with leech seed and toxic and be a stealth rock setter.

 

[Bloopyghost]

What does Pyroak's current movepool and typing combination imply it could do?

Fire/Grass is a unique type combo that boasts great neutral coverage, and Pyroak has strong STAB options on both sides of the offensive spectrum. Pyroak's access to Earthquake and Earth Power grant it near perfect coverage in tandem with its STABs. This in addition to boosting moves in DD, SD and Rock Polish suggests that Pyroak is a powerhouse capable of setting up and nailing nearly every mon in the metagame for at least neutral damage. Its movepool screams wallbreaker/sweeper.

Yet its stats say the opposite, which lean heavily into its defenses. 95 Sp. Attack leaves a lot to be desired and 70 Attack is just pitiful. Not helping matters is sitting around at 60 Speed. Pyroak does have some support options that could in theory be useable. Stealth Rock, Wisp, Toxic, Roar, Dragon Tail, and Leech Seed are all great moves to have for something this bulky. It's just that Pyroak isn't able to use them properly.

What is currently gatekeeping Pyroak from being successful in any given role? How do we mitigate said weakness(es)?

Honestly, it's a mix of everything. Fire/Grass being an atrocious defensive typing, its mediocre Speed and its lack of power. Fire/Grass cancel out a lot of each others resistances, leaving it with an awkward defensive profile that struggles to take advantage of the attacks it resists in addition to being weak to Stealth Rock and hating Toxic. This makes it feel a lot less bulky than it really is. It's a wall that cannot wall, further exacerbated by Synthesis' puny PP.

As a Fire-type, it is outclassed by Heatran and Astrolotl. As a Grass-type, it is outclassed by Ferrothorn. All three of these Pokemon pack more resistances, greater utility and better abilities. Ferro is also much bulkier, while Tran and Astro have greater offensive presence and higher Speed. Pyroak also happens to a rocker that loses to nearly every defogger. Being slower than Corv and getting chunked by Brave Bird is not a good look for something that wants to set hazards.

In order to make Pyroak usable, its stats and abilities must be improved. Aside from giving it a better recovery move and maybe another utility move or two, Pyroak already has the moves and typing needed to be able to establish its own niche. However, its stats and abilities leave it ill-equipped to accomplish anything. These are the two things I believe we should zero in on.

What roles could Pyroak feasibly fill in the CAP metagame?

There's two main ways I can see this going: either make Pyroak a fat mon that sets up hazards and Leech Seed like it was "originally" meant to be, or build upon its unique STAB combo and Ground coverage to make a formidable tank or bulky sweeper/stallbreaker. I'm personally in favor of the latter since again, Fire/Grass is just gross defensively but has incredible value as an offensive typing, but anything is up for grabs here.

 

[Mova]

I agree that Pyroak needs a different ability that can make use of the Fire/Grass/Ground coverage it has. This can be done without changing stats a huge amount, even if one stat needs to be buffed a bit. Giving it something like a type immune ability can help wonders as well.

 

[reachzero]

What does Pyroak's current movepool and typing combination imply it could do?


Pyroak's combination of movepool and typing are promising; there is something here to work with. It looks like it should switch in well to some pretty common threats; on paper is has good matchups against Tapu Fini, Arghonaut, Astrolotl, Corviknight without Brave Bird, Ferrothorn, Melmetal, Tapu Koko, Clefable, Kartana and Slowbro, which would be a very meaty chunk of CAP's S and A tiers. In practice, of course, it does not perform as well as its typing and attack moves suggest it ought to, mainly for the reasons below.




What is currently gatekeeping Pyroak from being successful in any given role? How do we mitigate said weakness(es)?


There are many issues here, unfortunately. Pyroak has four main groups of problems:

1. Problems related to passive damage
2. Problems related to stat distribution
3. Problems related to four moveslot syndrome
4. Problems related to competition

Passive damage is a major bugaboo for Pyroak. Many of the Pokemon Pyroak should beat easily on paper one on one--like Ferrothorn, Kartana or Melmetal--carry Knock Off or Toxic , either of which is a tremendous problem for Pyroak. Knock Off in particular is an even bigger deal for Pyroak than it is for Astrolotl or Zapdos because Pyroak is already very slow and passive (i.e. problem group #2), so spending a turn using a recovery move often means an enormous loss of momentum.


Pyroak's stat distribution has not held up well to a changing metagame. It is too slow to outspeed almost anything notable without considerable investment, and it is difficult to do enough damage to be really threatening to anything that isn't 4x weak to its attacks without considerable investment. On the other hand, pulling EVs out of bulk leave it even more vulnerable to being overwhelmed, especially if it is Knocked Off. Against Pokemon like Arghonaut, that are both naturally faster and significantly bulky, using Pyroak feels like a terrible matchup even if it would theoretically win one-on-one; Pyroak just isn't doing enough damage even with Grass attacks to make it matter. That Argh itself has Knock Off means that in an actual battle, Arghonaut will almost always present more danger to Pyroak than the reverse. Pyroak is simply too passive.


Pyroak feels its four moveslot syndrome far more acutely than even other slow, defensive Pokemon. Toxapex for instance wishes it could run Scald/Toxic/Toxic Spikes/Haze/Knock Off/Recover and sometimes Baneful Bunker, but any combination that involves Recover and an attacking move works well enough because it is so resilient against passive damage and all of its options make an impact beyond the turns when Pex itself is in. Pyroak has utility options in Leech Seed and Stealth Rock, but neither is impactful enough to offset the momentum lost in giving up the coverage of a third attack. Having three attacks is also problematic because then Pyroak is doubling down on its offensive presence, which is weak. Pyroak is good at getting in and good at staying in, but terrible at accomplishing meaningful gains while it is in. Right now, it is meaningfully more passive than Toxapex.


What roles could Pyroak feasibly fill in the CAP metagame?


Pyroak's typing/movepool chassis is pretty good--it simply is configured more for a more-than-moderately bulky, midrange speed tanky attacker than it is for its current role, as a slow, passive wall. This discussion also leads me to wonder if perhaps new EV spreads are the top Pyroak need, but I think increased offensive presence is Pyroak's most important need to make meaningful contributions. With better offenses it could actually beat in practice more of the threats it could theoretically beat on paper, which would be enough.

 

[Pipotchi]

What roles could Pyroak feasibly fill in the CAP metagame?
There isnt a quick fix for Pyroak's defensive issues. Bad recovery, non-useful resists, vulnerable to all hazards and rock weak, bad SR setting matchup, 4mss, passive, slow, it has everything going wrong for it on that side except for high defensive stats. Its on par with mons like Avalugg for me where its defensive stats are already high enough to know this route doesnt make sense for what tools it has- and even against mons that it beats, you can always win through abusing knock off, pivoting, wearing out pp, status and hazards with ease. Pyroak will never compare to other defensive options until it reaches ridiculous defensive stats where its ground neutrality lets it win vs something like Garchomp or its water neutrality lets it handle stuff like Urshifu despite its issue with hazards.
Offensively it is salvageable. We alrdy talked before about how Chlorophyll automatically turns it into the best Sun sweeper in the game without any additional changes and Im sure certain ppl here would agree that DD routes are a simple tweak away from being good too. The mon is begging to be used offensively but it cant thanks to middling offenses and low speed.

This is all assuming that typing changes are off the table.

 

[snake]

modpost reminding people that Lasen said:

Reminder this isn't the time to formally submit changes! That will come at a later date after we've discussed how Pyroak should be handled.

Please focus on answering Lasen's questions or responding to others' answers to the questions.

 

[MrMeat]

My perspective. Some of these may be weird because my primary format is draft. But still could be good nuggets

What does Pyroak's current movepool and typing combination imply it could do?

Generally a wide move pool to me says it should be sweeping or wall breaking. Currently it doesn't hit quite hard enough to fill that. The support moves help with chip, but ultimately it's not enough and certainly not unique

What is currently gatekeeping Pyroak from being successful in any given role? How do we mitigate said weakness(es)?

No pun intended...he lacks fire power. How to mitigate I feel is easy. Both grass and fire typing benefit from the sun. Chlorophyll and solar power both do the trick
What roles could Pyroak feasibly fill in the CAP metagame?

With a change in ability (more so than a buff to stats) I believe it can easily turn into a potent wall breaker with support options to keep people guessing, or a weather sweeper

 

[Voltage]

What does Pyroak's current movepool and typing combination imply it could do?

When I look at Pyroak's movepool, I'm blown away at the amount of pretty reasonable choices it has to run offensively oriented sets. Its two STABs, Fire and Grass, are absolutely incredible when paired together as they give Pyroak an answer to both Steel types and Water types, which would each give the individual types trouble. There are only a couple mons that are common in the current meta that resists both of these types (Heatran and Astrolotl for example) but even then Pyroak gets Ground Type coverage too. In fact, Pyroak's coverage, while occasionally redundant is absolutely absurd if you give it a good look. With access to both physical and special coverage for Ground, Steel and Dragon moves, Pyroak has the coverage to hit most common meta threats (save Venomicon) Of course, given these aren't STABs, they often will require some boosting, of which Pyroak ALSO gets. Maybe one of the most out of place boosting moves on Pyroak, Dragon Dance is present and could theoretically make Pyroak a serious threat to its foes. Furthermore, Pyroak gets White Smoke, which gives it some security in making its boost and not having to fear things like Intimidate from stopping a sweep. And there's also the possibility that Pyroak may get chipped, which may be somewhat of a problem if not for the fact that Pyroak also gets reliable recovery in Synthesis. It is of course worth noting that not every single move can be run on Pyroak, but it doesn't change the fact that Pyroak has a multitude of theoretical options. A Fire/Grass Pokemon with access to Ground coverage on both sides of the Physical/Special split, means of boosting both Attack and Speed with multiple different moves (Swords Dance, Dragon Dance, and Growth) + White Smoke security with those boosts, and self reliant recovery (Giga Drain and Synthesis) doesn't come around very often, and yet, Pyroak doesn't see much if any offensive use.

Presently, Pyroak's best spread is a physically defensive wall that sets up rocks, throws status around and waits to die. Pyroak has essentially no offensive presence and is often a big hurdle to new CAP players attempting to figure out what is a good attacking type against Fire/Grass (Flying, Poison, and Rock). Its stats leave much to be desired offensively, but posts an agreeable 120 / 105 / 90 bulk, which would be useful, if Fire/Grass weren't an awful defensive combination. As noted, some of the most common attacking types on CAP right now are moves that Pyroak is severely weak to, with especially strong users of moves like Brave Bird, Hurricane, Gunk Shot, and stone Edge being thoroughly present. Furthermore, Fire/Grass is a subpar defensive typing, offering resistances to only Grass, Electric, Fairy and Steel type moves, and a requirement to run Heavy-Duty Boots without taking 25% damage every switch-in. And it's a shame too, because Pyroak would absolutely benefit from having some form of general recovery through Leftovers + Leech Seed / Synthesis. Another issue Pyroak faces is the direct competition with Ferro thorn as a bulky grass type Pokemon. Ferrothorn does everything Pyroak wishes it could do, better. Pyroak isn't technically a water resistance because of its Fire Type whereas Ferrothorn gets extra resistances fromthe Steel type (which also grants Ferro an immunity to Toxic Spikes which Pyroak lacks). Pyroak doesn't have access to Spikes whereas Ferrothorn has both prominent entry Hazards. Hilariously Pyroak even has a lower Attack stat than Ferrothorn (70 vs. 94).

To sumamrize, Pyroak has a plethora of offensive options based on movepool and typing, and yet it can't use any of them given the defensive nature of its stats. Because of this imbalance between typing, mnovepool and stats, there is, quite frankly, essentially no competitive reason to run Pyroak in today's meta.

What is currently gatekeeping Pyroak from being successful in any given role? How do we mitigate said weakness(es)?

Pyroak is like trying to use a Phillip's head screwdriver to screw in a flat-head screw. It looks like it would work when you pick it out of the toolkit, but then you find that it's just thoroughly unfit for the job. I don't want to postulate too much on the rather flavor-based approach that was done to create Pyroak more than 10 years ago now, but I wish I were there to have told them that Pyroak's defensive stats and abilities directly conflict with Pyroak's offensively oriented typing movepool. It's a little incredible just how much Pyroak is competing with itself here given everything it has to work with. Pyroak's typing and moves want it to be a fast and hard hitting mon that dies fairly quickly, or a setup sweeper that can clean games later, while Pyroak's stats and abilities want to preserve its longevity and be able to survive a variety of hits from a Gen 4 metagame (especially Critical Hits I suppose). I am of the opinion that in order to "fix" Pyroak, we will need to do a couple of changes, like adjusting multiple aspects of its big four (typing, moves, ability, and stats), rather than a single major patch.

What roles could Pyroak feasibly fill in the CAP metagame?

Presently in the CAP metagame, the sole offensive grass type we see on teams outside of Hyper-Offense is Kartana. Rillaboom and Jumbao have fallen off for a while now and are unlikely to return anytime soon with the creation of Venomicon. Tapu Bulu occasionally sees use if only to provide teams with Dragon immunities and Grass Terrian Support while still hitting Flying Types, but this is only done on very specific teams. Necturna exists to an extent, but is really only ever used explicitly on Hyper Offense. The absence of commonplace offensive Grass type Pokemon likely stems from the fact that Flying type moves are extremely good (i.e. unresisted by most types), and many of the best mons in metagames both current and past resist Grass type moves (Heatran, Dragapult, Venomicon in the curernt meta, Tomohawk Astrolotl, and Jumbao is previous iterations of Gen 8, etc.) .

Pyroak absolutely has the potential to fill the niche of "Offensively oriented splashable threat" with proper adjustment. A Fire/Grass combination with the previously listed coverage moves provides Pyroak with plenty of options for filling a role as a boosting sweeper, a choiced attacker, or even an offensive utility presence similar to Astrolotl (with its main niche being it having a much more reliable answer to bulky Water types like Slowbro and Toxapex). While I will refrain from posting specific ways I think Pyroak can be fixed, I thinkthat leaning into an offensive Grass type threat is the way to go.

 

[spoo]

A lot of what I want to say here will likely be rehashing points made by others in this thread, but I'd still like to broadly give my thoughts at this stage and answer some of lasen's questions in a more unstructured way

So, as referenced by lasen in the OP, we're in an exciting position to take this buff any way we want. Pyroak is the closest think to a blank canvas that CAP might ever see - its typing is largely fine, an ability like rock head is far from useless, it has a coherent stat spread, and it's got a fairly expansive movepool with multiple cohesive sets it could run - however, the synergy between these characteristics is absolutely godawful and leaves us with a jumbled mess of parts that have no real identity. You could run a defensive stealth rock set, or bulky 3atks, or even offensive setup, but roak is equally unviable at all of these roles so much so that they might as well not exist.

I believe that when we approach buffing this mon, any successful buff package will need to have three things - strength, purpose, and definition. Right now, Pyroak's power level in relation to the rest of the meta is absolutely dire. The mon does not have enough strong options (and it can't make the most out of the strong options it does have) to compete with other viable threats. A good buff will need to address this. Secondly, roak has no purpose; as outlined earlier, it has no real role that draws teams towards using it. In order to give Pyroak a sense of identity, successful buff packages should enable it to fill a concrete role or niche that will make it compelling to use. I think you can argue that roak succeeds in this point already, as it can fulfill roles such as a stealth rocker or a bulky attacker, but it's simply not good at any of them. This would be remedied through the final point - Pyroak needs a sense of cohesion between all of its options. I think it is possible for a buff package to buff Pyroak's power level and provide it with a role, while still failing because it remains a mess of incoherent parts. Successful buff packages will present an unambiguously defined final product.

Those are the three things that I believe are gatekeeping roak's success, and by the same token are what a good buff package will aim to fix. As for how to mitigate these issues, to state the obvious we will need to change one of (or a combination of) its typing, ability, stat spread, and movepool. I believe changing Pyroak's typing is not necessary nor advisable. It is arguably the biggest component of Pyroak's barely-visible identity: a grass type that does well into bulky steels, and a fire type that can bypass certain bulky waters. Leaving ability aside for a moment, I do not think that changes to its stat spread alone will provide it the necessary strength, role, or cohesion to be viable. Roak already stat-checks half the tier alone because it's so damn fat, and while its offensive stats leave a lot to be desired, I really don't think they're what holds the mon back. Its movepool is also frankly very solid as-is. That brings me back to its ability. I believe that a strong ability is absolutely crucial for this buff to succeed - Pyroak's ability is both the place where we can improve its strength the most, and where we have the best options for making a defined end product. If we do not give Roak a good, powerful ability, I have a very hard time trusting that we'll walk away from this process satisfied.

As for more specific strengths and weaknesses, I won't go too in-depth because a lot of what I have to say has already been covered really nicely by others in this thread. Still, here's my own take. I think Pyroak's main issues are competition and passivity. Roak has nothing that sets itself apart from better fire-types like Astrolotl and Heatran, or even more broadly from the million other options that can answer fairies, steels, or electrics much more consistently and provide more to their team. Its best tools to force out its foes are toxic and a weak lava plume, and it can do absolutely nothing against the myraid of defensive Pokemon that can cripple it in return with knock off and toxic. I would say that its bland defensive profile is also an issue, but there's nothing forcing Pyroak to take on a defensive role in the first place aside from its offensive passivity. A lack of 16pp recovery is also seriously damaging - combine this with its other passive features, and Pyroak can't ever hope to compete long-term against its opponent. As far as strengths go: I really believe lava plume is one of Pyroak's best features. This move is super dumb, and grass/ground coverage (or even just ground) complements it really nicely. Access to moves like rocks / aromatherapy is also pretty cool. Finally, I believe its natural bulk is a strength but still ultimately expendable. This is not something that demands we lean into it, but is nonetheless a notable strength on Pyroak's current build.

That's about all I have to share right now. I hope it's not controversial to say that we picked the most difficult buff out of poll 2's four options (by no small margin either), but I'm cautiously optimistic about how this is going to go, especially because I know our leadership is in such great hands.

 

[Rabia]

Honestly, I feel like the most important part of this buff will be to actually give Pyroak a concept. I obviously mean that in pretty loose terms, but it's evident that Pyroak's issues are rooted in its lack of direction. As spoo put it, there's an awful lot of good allotted to Pyroak; however, its traits just don't come together well at all. For this buff to really work, it's incredibly necessary to figure out a rough archetype from the get go. Otherwise, we're basically going to be playing darts blindfolded.

 

[dex]

I think giving the buff a direction is an excellent step forward. As far as I see it, there are two main ways to approach Pyroak: double down on its excellent defensive stats and utility options to try to make something of its lackluster typing or flip the script and turn Pyroak into a more offensively inclined tank, making use of its spammable STAB combination and surprisingly good coverage and boosting options.

The centerpiece of this buff is going to be Pyroak's ability. As has already been said, Pyroak is, for lack of a better term, down bad. Its abilities do little to nothing for it. Now CAP has made Pokemon that rarely if ever use their abilties, and seen them thrive (namely Necturna and Kerfluffle), but these Pokemon have much better tools at their disposal. Pyroak needs a new, strong, if not outright defining, ability in order to succeed. There are plenty of options here that have been discussed on Discord, but each buff package should include one major ability change. There really isn't another feasible way for Pyroak to compete in a tier already oversaturated with excellent Fire-types (see Heatran, Astrolotl, Victini, Volcarona, Blacephalon, and Volcanion). Pyroak needs something unique to bring to the table, and I think the best way to go about achieving that is by picking a direction and opening the floor for discussion about the strong abilities that could give Pyroak that necessary edge.

 

[MrMeat]

My perspective. Some of these may be weird because my primary format is draft. But still could be good nuggets

What does Pyroak's current movepool and typing combination imply it could do?

Generally a wide move pool to me says it should be sweeping or wall breaking. Currently it doesn't hit quite hard enough to fill that. The support moves help with chip, but ultimately it's not enough and certainly not unique

What is currently gatekeeping Pyroak from being successful in any given role? How do we mitigate said weakness(es)?

No pun intended...he lacks fire power. How to mitigate I feel is easy. Both grass and fire typing benefit from the sun. Chlorophyll and solar power both do the trick
What roles could Pyroak feasibly fill in the CAP metagame?

With a change in ability (more so than a buff to stats) I believe it can easily turn into a potent wall breaker with support options to keep people guessing, or a weather sweeper

One more point from my previous post. Embarcadero has chlorophyll. Why would it suddenly lose a good ability when it evolves and gain a bunch of mediocre ones?

 

[kjnjkmjk1]

One more point from my previous post. Embarcadero has chlorophyll. Why would it suddenly lose a good ability when it evolves and gain a bunch of mediocre ones?

Prevos are designed after the main CAP is finished. In this case, Embirch was put together as a final product in 2012, which is over 4 years after Pyroak was finished. We didn't make a conscious decision to put Chlorophyll on Embirch first, then remove it from Pyroak afterward; Pyroak was designed without Chlorophyll, and we decided it would be nice to add Chlorophyll to Embirch several years later.