CAP Updates: Arghonaut Discussion (Complete)

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DarkSlay

DarkSlay

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Arghonaut.png
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Arghonaut Update and Discussion​

LAND HO!

Avast, me hearties, and welcome to the Arghonaut Update and Discussion thread! Ye be treadin' on the waters of our favorite Generation IV CAP crustacean, the Pirate Pugilist Arghonaut. Shiver your timbers and clear the deck, because it's high tide this squid got an update!

HISTORY

Arghonaut was the 6th CAP created since the start of the project, meaning that it's one of the earliest projects in CAP's (surprisingly long) history. Arghonaut started with a concept called Decentralizer, which focused on creating a CAP that would be able to tackle some of the biggest threats in the metagame.
Name: Decentralizer Description:A Pokemon can check a majority of the current top 5 Pokemon. (DS NOTE: This was changed to Top 10 during typing discussions) I feel that specifically mentioning Scizor, Zapdos, and Heatran makes the concept too restrictive, but ideally this would be able to take at least two of these Pokemon on (Blissey does this for certain varients of Zapdos and Heatran). Unfortunately, there are very few type combos that do this, which is why I don't want to mention any specific Pokemon in the description.
psst Hm? psssssst WHAT?

POP QUIZ!

What metagame was Arghonaut designed for?
NOPE. You'd be wrong.
CORRECT!
NO. Got you there, though!
The following 10 Pokemon were considered to be the biggest threats in Arghonaut's metagame, and were used as the basis for its creation:
  1. Stratagem
  2. Revenankh
  3. Fidgit
  4. Tyranitar
  5. Zapdos
  6. Syclant
  7. Blissey
  8. Heatran
  9. Scizor
  10. Pyroak
Interesting list, right? Now, obviously, this Top 10 is pretty out of date: it's meant for a specific frame in time for a specific generation (Generation IV CAP), so to say that Arghonaut is relevant is...way off. Not to mention that Arghonaut, without a doubt, was able to beat even more threats than what's on this top 10 at the time, including Garchomp, Salamence, Gyarados, Dragonite, and other physical boosters. Now, let's look at the Top 25 most used Pokemon in the CAP metagame 1760 rankings currently (Top 20 since the list of overall Pokemon has expanded dramatically since Gen IV):
  1. Tomohawk
  2. Colossoil
  3. Mega Metagross
  4. Tapu Lele
  5. Mollux
  6. Landorus-T
  7. Tapu Fini
  8. Pyroak
  9. Mega Crucibelle
  10. Cyclohm
  11. Volkraken
  12. Ferrothorn
  13. Zygarde
  14. Greninja-Ash
  15. Cawmodore
  16. Fidgit
  17. Aurumoth
  18. Tapu Koko
  19. Pheromosoa
  20. Kerfluffle
While this list isn't the best indicator at actual top threats in the upper metagame (CAP bias + lack of big threats [Magearna, Garchomp, Celesteela, Tapu Bulu, Chansey, Mega Scizor, Mega Venusaur, etc.]), it's at least a good starting point in understanding how the metagame works. And for Arghonaut...the results are mixed. Arghonaut has serious issues competing with the top threats and sets due to power creep and wear and tear of its typing over time mixed with shifting metagame trends.

That said, Arghonaut still has some natural things going for it, which we'll discuss in the next section.

Arghonaut: In-Depth

Here's the stats and information for Arghonaut pre-update:

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Arghonaut
Typing: Water / Fighting
Abilities: Unaware (formerly Avast [Unaware clone])
Stats: 105 HP / 110 Atk / 95 Def / 70 SpA / 100 SpD / 75 Spe
Movepool: http://www.smogon.com/cap/pokemon/moves/arghonaut
Now, let's delve into Arghonaut in the Gen 7 metagame, and analyze some of its strengths and weaknesses to determine our direction:

STRENGTHS IN GEN 7:
  • Arghonaut has unique defensive typing in Water/Fighting, which comes with seven very useful resistances in Bug, Dark, Fire, Ice, Rock, Steel, and Water.
  • Its lone ability, Unaware, is still a very valuable ability individually, allowing it to stonewall physical boosters lacking super effective STAB.
  • 105 / 95 / 100 defenses are good, comparable to the pixies (Jirachi, Mew, etc.) and fairly balanced depending on EV investment and nature.
  • Also has access to Bulk Up and Recover, which helps its defense and longevity.
  • 110 Attack is pretty good for a bulky attacker, too.
  • Offensively, it has good offensive STAB typing, with Water/Fighting hitting quite a bit in the metagame at least neutrally.
  • Arghonaut does have access to a few good coverage moves, namely Gunk Shot and Earthquake.
WEAKNESSES IN GEN 7:
  • While having good resistances, Arghonaut also suffers from having bad weaknesses for the Gen 7 metagame. Electric, Fairy, Flying, Grass, and Psychic are all very common attacking types and hit Arghonaut for big damage.
  • "Decentralizer" right now just doesn't apply to Arghonaut literally as a result. The top 10 consist of very strong Fairy-types, Psychic-types, Electric-types, and Flying-types.
  • While Unaware still is a good ability, the advent of things like Supersonic Strike and Mega Metagross has made it difficult for Arghonaut to stuff top threats in the game, and thus often doesn't do its job like it previously did.
  • Its stats are good, but not amazing. It doesn't really have one "excellent" stat that can be easily taken advantage of. "Jack of all trades"-esque stat spread with one exception. (NOTE: This isn't a weakness per se, but rather a reason why it's more middling.)
  • That exception: 75 Speed is not great. Out-paced by a ton of things in the metagame, including some slower defensive Pokemon. Often can't invest in Speed either, since it either has to maximize its bulk or Attack.
  • STAB options offensively are relatively weak. Its best physical Water STAB is Waterfall, while its best physical Fighting STAB is Cross Chop (or rather, Drain Punch due to its utility). This means that it doesn't get much output offensively from its own typing without boosts.
  • Some coverage moves are outdated and could use some sprucing up.
I believe that this is a good way to create a foundation for Arghonaut discussion. I will be starting and operating each phase of the process through free form: new topics will be posted both below in the next post and at spots in the thread where discussions change.

Hoist the sails! I can feel the winds changing, mateys, so let's set course for update! YARGHHHH!
 
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CURRENT DISCUSSION:

Step 3A: Moveset Discussion

Misty Surge has won the poll! We now move onto Moveset submissions.

This discussion will be much stricter than ability discussions. Please try not to make short posts that do not contribute that much to discussion.

Movesets should be posted in the following format:
Moveset Submission

Name: Choice Band
Move 1: Flare Blitz
Move 2: Sucker Punch
Move 3: U-turn
Move 4: Stone Edge
Ability: Guts
Item: Choice Band
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly
  • Because of CAP X's Fire typing, Flare Blitz does a lot of damage.
  • Sucker Punch allows it priority, as well as the ability to handle Slowking.
  • Stone Edge allows it to OHKO Talonflame.
  • U-Turn can be used to scout, as well as abuse predicted switches.
  • Choice Band is used to amplify damage, and fulfil CAP X's role as a wallbreaker
  • In case CAP X gets hit by status conditions, Guts raises its damage output to even higher levels.
Click to expand...
New moves must be brought up using this format and have thorough explanations and must have calcs to back up your claims. If you don't have correct, accurate, relevant calcs that match up with your set submission, I will be less inclined to take your post seriously. Please explain every move thoroughly, even ones that Arghonaut already has. If you need some reference for good posts, please look at Kerfluffle's moveset submission thread.

To start off, I'm going to bring up a few moves that have been previously discussed either in this thread or on Showdown!. Note that you are not limited to these moves for moveset purposes, these are just commonly discussed moves which may give you a framework to start out with. Let's start some of our movesets and discussion here:

Circle Throw
Scald
Spikes
Ice Hammer
Rapid Spin/Defog

Since this will be a long discussion, I'm going to indefinitely open discussion and post updates later on with time restrictions. Have fun!

PRIOR DISCUSSIONS:
Step 1: Creating a Foundation Through Discussion

To start off, I will be presenting some major points I believe should be the focus of the update for Arghonaut, and I'll be asking you (the community) your thoughts on how we should tackle Arghonaut.

My own top three things I believe will be crucial for Arghonaut:
  • Arghonaut needs a way to better handle some top threats in the metagame. Now, I don't believe that this means we need to outright counter/check things like Tapu Lele and Tomohawk, I don't think that's feasible. However, I think there are ways we can target specific areas of the metagame and allow Arghonaut to operate against those threats, thus shrinking its "Decentralizer" role in a realistic way. This will probably be done through ability or a mix of offensive options.
  • Arghonaut needs some more natural power. This will probably be done through movepool updates, but there's no doubt that good options now exist that were not available or a choice back in Generation IV.
  • Arghonaut needs artificial barriers removed. This is probably the easiest one to fix, I'm talking about egg move restrictions and the like.
The following questions are presented in order to get a better sense of how we should steer this discussion. Note that I'm not looking for specific abilities or moves just yet, but rather just general discussion:
  1. Not looking at Arghonaut's concept, what do you think of Arghonaut in the current metagame?
  2. Can "Decentralizer" be done in this metagame? If not per concept definition, can it be accomplished under different standards (ie. different targets, different definition of "top metagame threats", etc.)?
  3. What is missing from Arghonaut's kit that would make it more effective in the metagame?
Step 2A: Ability Update - Competitive and/or Flavor Ability Viability
Okay fellow pirates, great initial discussion! I want people to refer to the previous posts when trying to determine Arghonaut's role in the metagame. My thoughts from my previous post sum up my reaction, and we'll be moving on to the next stages using that framework.

We're going to move on to our next topic, which is Arghonaut and the prospect of an ability update. Our questions are going to focus solely on abilities only (unless specific moves are absolutely necessary to help explain the ability discussion), so keep all other discussion on moves for a later step.

To start off, we need to determine if Arghonaut needs a competitive ability update. For those who are not familiar with Arghonaut, here are its current abilities:

Unaware: Ignores the opponent's stat changes.

...that's it! Arghonaut currently has only one ability, so the capacity to add another ability is definitely at play. The question is, should we add a competitive ability to Arghonaut's arsenal? And should Arghonaut have three abilities as a result, giving room for a flavor addition even if we give it a competitive ability?
Here are my initial thoughts:
  • Arghonaut's ability, Unaware, is still good, but is no longer an obvious benefit for it. With the advent of Fly-Z and power creep, Arghonaut finds itself in OHKO or 2HKO from stat boosters in Generation 7, which can limit the effectiveness of its ability overall. It is absolutely still a competitive ability, and a good one, but I think there's room to add a compliment.
  • As a result, if we add a competitive ability, it must not overshadow the benefits of Unaware. Considering that Unaware is still effective and plays well with Arghonaut's current role, I want a complimenting competitive ability to be equal to or less than the usefulness of Unaware. I don't think it'll be too hard to fill this requirement, since anything above Unaware's usefulness is pretty powerful or doesn't make sense with the concept.
  • Arghonaut will still be a bulky attacker with an added utility purpose, making it fairly defensive. Keep that in mind when suggesting abilities later on, but hold specific suggestions off until we determine if Arghonaut should gain a competitive ability.
  • Regardless, I am for the notion of Arghonaut receiving a new flavor ability. It's going to get at least one new ability. The question is about a new competitive ability. And if one is selected, whether a third flavor ability is something the community wants.
Here are the discussion questions for the next part:
  • Should Arghonaut receive a competitive ability? If so, how should that ability interact with Unaware?
  • How do you see a new competitive ability impacting Arghonaut's usage in the metagame?
  • If a competitive ability is selected, do you believe Arghonaut should be eligible for a third, flavor-based ability?
This discussion will close in 48 hours from now (10:00 AM EST). At the conclusion, I will hold a poll to determine the direction of Arghonaut's abilities and the selection process of those abilities.
Step 2B: Ability Update - Competitive Ability Discussion

Now that we've established the boundaries in which we're working in for an ability update, let's get into some discussion on potential abilities for Arghonaut. Here are some of my initial thoughts in which to help frame some of your own comments and suggestions:
  • Given that Arghonaut is naturally bulky and given our desire to give Arghonaut some utility, purely offensive abilities are suspect. Now, this does not mean that I'll be ruling out abilities that boost Argh's offensive prowess. Some suggestions have been fine. However, I do believe that abilities that provide a blanket power up for Arghonaut's attacks just both doesn't fit the mold of Arghonaut AND isn't as beneficial to Arghonaut as other potential abilities. Keep in mind the role we want Arghonaut to play just as much as keeping in mind things in which Arghonaut can or cannot hit.
  • Arghonaut would benefit more from concrete effects rather than temporary effects. What does this mean? I believe that Arghonaut is kind of like a glue, one that can hit pretty hard and take on certain threats in general. Therefore, I'm not a fan of things like weather-reliant abilities or Terrain-reliant abilities. The need to completely shift Arghonaut into one of these team archetypes simply isn't needed, and there are better options out there.
  • Remember, we want an ability that aims to be AS GOOD AS Unaware, and not something outright better. Keep this in mind when giving suggestions.
  • Be creative! Ability suggestions are narrowing yet open, which promotes discussion. If you find a competitive and/or flavor ability that would truly be beneficial for Arghonaut, then open up discussion for it. This is similar to our own normal CAP creation process. The more diverse and thorough the conversation, the better!
Instead of giving questions, since we're getting more specific, I will start off the suggestion phase with three common ability suggestions I have seen used in discussion (Showdown!'s CAP room). I do not outright support any of these abilities just yet, but rather will comment on their positives that have been discussed. You may comment on these three abilities as you see fit, and you may also suggest your own ideas as you see fit (within reason).
  • Sap Sipper: Sap Sipper, otherwise known as "Rum Sipper" for Arghonaut, sounds odd at first, given that it would essentially make a Water-type CAP outright immune to a weakness. However, the notion revolves around giving Arghonaut a broader amount of things to switch into while also increasing its Attack if given good prediction. This would enable it to beat or "better beat" Pokemon such as Tapu Bulu, Pyroak, Stratagem, Leech Seed abusers (including Flying STAB-less Celesteela), and other potential targets. This provides good defensive utility paired with limited offensive utility, and allows Arghonaut to "de-centralize" a certain sect of the metagame. It pairs well with Unaware, and gives players a legitimate choice as to what to choose. It could be a viable choice.
  • Iron Barbs: Iron Barbs is an interesting ability for Arghonaut, giving it an additional tool against strong Physical threats in the metagame. Additional residual damage would stack on with potential hazard damage and hazard control, which helps with Arghonaut's utility. Furthermore, this would dis-incentivize certain threats from throwing out contact moves, most notably prominent U-Turn users like Pheromosa and Mega Scizor. Iron Barbs is a good ability that is solid overall and plays well with Unaware. It could be a viable choice.
  • Technician: Technician is an example of a normally offensive-based ability potentially having some overall utility for Arghonaut. Technician would currently give some more "oomph" to certain priority moves in Arghonaut's disposal, which may help with its naturally slow Speed. However, Technician's true value may come to light in the future additions to Arghonaut's movepool, which could give it access things like a Tech-boosted phazing move or Tech-boosted status infliction move. This one takes some foresight, but it could be a viable choice.
NOTE: While "polljumping" is still discouraged, if your ability suggest mandates potential moves for examples of how said ability can be useful, I will allow it within reason.

Have at it! This discussion will close in 72 hours, which should give everyone ample time to bring up and discuss abilities.
 
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1. Arghonaut is in a bad place in the metagame because it strongly resembles a defensive utility Pokemon, but it completely lacks role compression. "Volkraken counter" and "Greninja counter" are two things that every good CAP team needs, and that means basically every every team has a bulky Water or pseudo-Water (i.e. Mollux) that takes strong Fire and Water attacks. Arghonaut would seem ideal for this role as it has reliable recovery and great bulk, but in practice it underperforms compared to Tapu Fini and Mollux because it has so little utility value in comparison. On a turn when Arghonaut is in, its options involve attacking, Recovering, or using Toxic, basically. Phazing is attractive until you realize just how much hazard removal there is in the CAP metagame. You end up attacking a lot, and Arghonaut's offensive potential is a bit limited by the fact that you have only three attacks (one slot is always used for Recover) and more importantly the fact that you're primarily invested in your defenses. In other words, Arghonaut does too little damage to be a Pokemon that only does damage.

2. "Decentralizer" was always a somewhat flawed concept, since all Arghonaut ended up doing was "recentralizing" the metagame. That being said, on release Arghonaut DID dramatically impact the shape of the CAP metagame, and helped create the Flying and Psychic dominant metagame that it has remained to this day. There are ways that Arghonaut could recentralize the metagame again, but many of them are pretty extreme--"Decentralizer" is after all an ambitious concept. For instance, specializing Arghonaut as a Trick Room setter would be plausible, especially with the excellence of existing Trick Room users, but it would take Arghonaut far from its established roots.

3. Arghonaut needs some sort of utility outside of straight damage. The obvious choice would be something like Defog, since hazard removal is the main advantage other (pseudo-)Waters have over it, but the CAP metagame is flush with hazard removal options already. An entry hazard (Spikes?) would be a possibility, or even a team-focused field condition, like Trick Room or Tailwind.
 
Arghonaut is one of those Pokemon that has a great many things going for it, but is forced out by a lot of competition.

Of the things Arghonaut needs to be successful, I think a good many of them are just basic updates. Arghonaut has to compete with other Bulky Waters right now when it doesn't even have Scald. Scald is a move so universally useful even Quagsire runs it on its Unaware set. Arghonaut could act very similarly with it given its generally superior typing and Special Defense.

Then there's offensive ability. Relying on Cross Chop when you need to pressure opponents is simply not effective. Close Combat would remedy that particular problem ably, and its a move that people expect competitive level Fighting Pokemon to have and use. Arghonaught could actually be quite effective as a Bulky Choice Band user with 110 Base Attack, and STAB priority moves already on its set, up to now though it's simply lacked a move that could reliably smash through opponents.

As far as Utility not presently in Arghonaut's kit, Circle Throw offers something that works well with Unaware, seeing as so many boosters forego Substitute now. It also benefits from Arghonaut's use of Bulk Up, and combined with the aforementioned Scald could turn Argnoaut into a very effective status spreader. Moving back to offense for a moment, Swords Dance would allow Arghonaut to reliably 2HKO Cyclohm with Earthquake, something Bulk Up does not currently allow it to do. While Arghonaut does want to invest in Bulk, there are plenty of reasons for it to run 44 Spe EVs as well to get a drop on Base 80 Pokemon (Cyclohm being the chief one, but there are others) without investment. And again, it has STAB priority so its naturally going to be a good Swords Dance user. One other move it gets that people forget is Thunder Punch, but Thunder Punch isn't really strong enough to get it out of a rut with just a Bulk Up behind it. Life Orb Thunder Punch actually OHKOs Tapu Fini with rocks up. While BU Gunk Shot can presently do that, SD Thunder Punch simultaneously improves its matchup against Skarmory, Celesteela, and Volkraken.

Bottom line is, I think Argh's best shot at viability is as a stallbreaking pivot. With Taunt, some good boosting moves, and several sets that dismantle Stall in their own way it could carve out a niche distinctive from other Bulky Waters.
 
The thing about Arghonaut is that, like others have stated, it is in need of utility options to distinct from others, as its typing alone cannot suffice.

Argo's lack of utility moves such as Taunt, Scald, Whirlwind/Roar and Circle Throw and absence of powerful STAB options like Close Combat (this is just silly tbh) and Liquidation make offensive sets lack much punch. Swords Dance is also an option for it to be a much better stallbreaker as well. The move illegalities it faces also suck badly and should get the boot.

In regards to a hidden ability, unaware is already amazing as is, so a non competitive ability would be best for it.
 
1.) Not looking at Arghonaut's concept, what do you think of Arghonaut in the current metagame?

Arghonaut is a CAP with a lot of potential as it has the tools to be a strong defensive check to things like Mega Charizard X or Greninja. However it struggles to do this effectively and consistently due to natural weaknesses such as susceptibility to status, low damage output and low momentum. As well as these natural weaknesses, pokemon like Tapu Lele and other fairies, psychics and electrics can easily take advantage of it on the event that it ever comes out. This limits arghos consistently by drastic amount.

2.) Can "Decentralizer" be done in this metagame? If not per concept definition, can it be accomplished under different standards (ie. different targets, different definition of "top metagame threats", etc.)?

Decentraliser is pretty much undo-able or at least redundant in any metagame because as you decentralise the initial threats, new threats will begin to centralise. I do think argho can reduce the usage/consistency of other top pokemon, but I'm not sold on if that would necessarily be healthy. I think that we should really focus on just enhancing it's defensive capabilities rather than trying to adhere to a concept or take on a concept.

3.) What is missing from Arghonaut's kit that would make it more effective in the metagame?

Unaware is a nice ability but another defensive ability would be suitable for it as it'll allow for it to have another tool in it's kit to really play on it's defensive strengths. Arghonaut would benefit greatly from scald so much, it's already incredibly passive and scald could help get around this as the potential burn chance at least makes up for the damage output. Circle Throw would be benefiting as it'd allow it to scout your opponents switch into you, phase sweepers if you're not unaware and also potentially be used on offensive sets. It needs to be able to offer something that other defensive pokemon can't offer.
 
Arghonaut is in a tough place for any update. Offensively, pretty much anything it could want to do is eclipsed by Keldeo, Greninja (both), or Gyarados.

Defensively, it faces similar problems from Tapu Fini in particular but most bulky waters in general. A stallbreaker set won't even work because Tapu Fini and Naviathan will do that better as well.

I'm thinking its best role these days would be Rapid Spin, which puts it in competition mostly with Starmie, but Arghonaut cannot be Pursuit trapped.

It should also gain Scald to punish ghost switch ins.
 
Avast ye mateys! This sea dog is primed for an update!

1. Arghonaut, sadly but truly, falls flat on its face in the current metagame. The current threats to it, with obvious examples being the influx of fairies, the buff many pokemon received from z moves, and the overall strength SM carries with it at the moment, have really stopped Arghonaut from being a viable and strong capmon. It has a "niche" in that it can handle very specific things, but in some cases it is even outclassed in that respect. The resistances it has cannot justify its use with the weaknesses it also carries. Overall, Arghonaut struggles to warrant a use for itself on many teams, and the teams that carry it, usually can opt for something better in place of it.

2. In theory, yes, "Decentralizer" could be done with slight changes, that being set targets rather than top 5, top 10, ect. However, I feel as if the best way to update Arghonaut is to focus less on its concept, and to focus more on how Arghonaut feels. For me personally, that includes a bulky, heavy hitter. The kind you imagine swinging a massive anchor around like a light rope.

3. Arghonaut has a lot of wiggle room when it comes to what can be added to his tool kit. Personally I feel like flavorful heavy hitting moves are a key aspect to consider. 2 new abilities, as I feel every cap should have 3 abilities, would also be welcomed along side the already good ability, unaware. It is really just missing moves to give it offensive presence on the battlefield, and abilities.
 
1.) Not looking at Arghonaut's concept, what do you think of Arghonaut in the current metagame?
I think it has potential. The statistics are good but somewhat underwhelming in the current metagame, and the typing is currently less than ideal with several glaring weaknesses, such as that to Psychic and Fairy. Overall the typing is still salvageable though. I think that it has potential to be useful for utility. Currently it isn't particularly relevant. It attempts to play as a tank, but finds it isn't worth using over other defensive Water types. It then tries to use Bulk Up as a fighting type, but Revenakh almost all-around crushes it in that aspect too. As a whole Arghonaut just struggles to differentiate it from other Pokemon.

2.) Can "Decentralizer" be done in this metagame? If not per concept definition, can it be accomplished under different standards (ie. different targets, different definition of "top metagame threats", etc.)?
This concept can be accomplished for a mere second, but to have it last is an impossible dream. Sure it can decentralize the current threats for a mere moment but as soon as the Decentralizer is introduced to the metagame, it drastically changes. Let's look at it this way through this little game, of sorts.


Decentralizer is introduced to the metagame. -->
Concept failed. Duh.
The decentralizer seems to be a success, for the moment. Now there are two ways that the metagame can react to this new Pokemon that beats the current best Pokemon:
Now there are a new group of top Pokemon, which the decentralizer may or may not beat. Concept failed.
The checks/counters become common enough that it isn't worth running the decentralizer any more. The same top Pokemon continued to be run, along with decentralizer checks just in case anyone still uses it. Concept failed.
3.) What is missing from Arghonaut's kit that would make it more effective in the metagame?

I'm going to be blunt here: Arghonaut is held back by just not having a stats spread that works for it in the current metagame. It's not powerful enough to be worth using over Keldeo, Greninja, or Gyarados (as Bughouse said), and not bulky enough in my eyes to be worth using over other bulky water typess. It's bulky, yes, but not enough to make it worth having weaknesses to such powerful types like Psychic, Fairy, and Flying. To be honest, I think Arghonaut would just ideally want some more defense, to make it worth using as a physical setup counter.

Essentially, the thing missing is statistics that keep up with the current power creep. I realize we cannot feasible go around buffing stats, so the next best thing we can do are to give Arghonaut some equipment that makes up for it. It needs another ability option to help it beat some other Pokemon (Note how Clefable wouldn't have been nearly as good in Gen 6 if it had only Unaware and no Magic Guard). It'd also be nice to give it some more powerful moves as stated by others like Liquidation.
 
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As others have said, Argh really should get Close Combat and Scald, and it's quite silly that it didn't have the former already. However, I'd also like to draw attention to Argh's ability. Unaware is an ability that depending on the meta its used in is either a godsend or completely unusable, and unfortunately Gen 7 CAP is very much in the later camp. Pokemon in this meta that use set-up are usually either setting up by spamming their STAB moves like Pheromosa and its Beast Boosting bretheren, in which case Argh has to take damage to the dome to get in that it really doesn't want to take, or it's a mon like Cawmodore, Crucibelle-Mega, or Aurumoth with STAB (or in Crucibelle's case Wood Hammer) that just naturally bops Arghonaut even without boosts. In fact, in context of the CAP metagame, the only set-up sweeper which Arghonaut actually benefits from having Unaware against is Zygarde, and Clefable is just better than Argh at dealing with that, so you would never actually want Argh to be your unaware mon.

Personally, I think that another viable ability may be in order for times like this where Unaware is functionally an uncompetitive ability.
 
As others have said, I doubt that Decentralizer as a concept can survive as intended. Metagame shifts can completely destroy the concept- the top however many mons won't stay the same for the entirety of a generation. I agree heavily with Blackdrakon in the way he described the introduction of a specially-tailored Decentralizer to the metagame alone, disregarding further introductions or natural meta shifts (especially in the relative early stages of a metagame, as we are in now).

As it stands, I see Argh more outclassed in its role than anything. There isn't much of a reason to use it over other bulky waters- Fini has more utility (although lacks recovery) and a better defensive typing, Toxapex has again, more utility, Rotom-W has immunities, volt switch, etc, and Unaware looks fantastic until you realize it can't handle some of the most common setup sweepers in the metagame- Zfly Lando/Gyara/Mence, Auru, M-Pinsir, Cawm, CM Lele to name some. I don't feel it's the best option to go and try to make Argh as strong utility wise as other bulky waters, but give it a niche- more offensive power, different types of utility, etc- in order to make it a viable option for a team that needs the role.
 
I think Arghonaut's biggest problem is that it entirely lacks a role. Decentralizer imo is completely moot since it hasn't fulfilled that concept for a while and its identity isn't really related to it. The closest things to a role it has managed to try out are an AV Drain Puncher or a Bulk Up tank, but egg move illegalities prevent it from running Bulk Up and Recover at the same time. First things first, Arghonaut needs to be updated to the current gens by removing egg move legalities.

Anything beyond that, I think Arghonaut needs to be given/"assigned" a new role so that we can move on without going blindly into the dark. While I initially cringed at Bughouse's suggestion of rapid spinner because I don't like adding old moves to an old mon (I generally prefer adding only new moves), I do think that it could potentially have the tools to fulfill such a role. I'm not sold on it, but it is a unique thing that could let it work well...
 
The thing with setting up with this guy is that on top of the move illegalities, it has no way to remedy that speed. A ton of threats like Tomohawk, Aurumoth, Celesteela, All of the Tapus, Metagross, Alakazam... they all make setting up worthless until you eliminate all of them. A lot of teams will have two or three Pokemon that render Arghonaut moot, and maybe an option to patch Speed would push Arghonaut back into relevance.
 
I'll echo what others have said so far regarding egg move illegalities. There's no reason to preserve such illegalities when they're no longer a thing in game due to new mechanics. The only real exception here is Necturna, but we'll figure out a way to deal with that when the time comes. Anyway, moving on...

Arghonaut isn't a terrible mon in this metagame. While its typing can definitely be a burden at times, it does check some select threats quite well. For instance, it's a pretty solid answer to Ash Greninja, Volkraken, and Syclant. In fact, it's one of the best Syclant counters in the metagame; it completely ignores Tail Glow boosts thanks to Unaware and it resists Syclant's STAB combo, so it doesn't really fear getting blasted by a Z set or getting U-turned on. Arghonaut has some neat coverage in its offensive movepool as well, like Earthquake and Gunk Shot.

That being said, there are a few key factors which hold Arghonaut back from being a real threat. While Arghonaut does check a few top threats, it can't really take advantage of the free turn this generates very well. As reach pointed out, Arghonaut's options once its on the field are basically attacking, clicking Recover, or clicking Toxic. As it currently stands, Arghonaut lacks the power needed to be a mon that just attacks things. That's why it gets passed up in favor of other stronger attackers. Toxic is okay, but it's hardly anything that's super unique to Arghonaut, not really enough to justify its niche. The way I see it, Arghonaut is essentially a utility counter that severely lacks actual utility.

To increase Arghonaut's effectiveness, I don't think the answer is pumping up its offensive capabilities. We can certainly give it some stronger STAB, sure, but Liquidation/Close Combat alone aren't going to suddenly fix the issues it currently faces. I don't think the answer is giving Arghonaut more coverage, either. I think that the most viable solution is to give it some tools that increase its utility, so it can better take advantage of the turns it's on the field forcing out the select array of Pokemon it does counter. Without going into too much detail, this could be as simple as the addition of a single utility move; it doesn't need to be the next Fidgit. This alone would be enough to make Arghonaut into a much more usable Pokemon without going overboard (no pun intended).
 
Okay everyone, great points so far. Here are some of my reactions to what has been said so far:

1. Arghonaut with some focus on utility is intriguing. Given Arghonaut's current role and status, a utility role for Arghonaut doesn't seem very plausible. However, in Generation IV, Arghonaut did run an effective Roar set, which was able to phaze out boosters that could eventually wear it down even with Unaware and punish switch-ins who tried to counter Argh's momentum stopping switch-in. While phazing hasn't been as popular in Generation VII, I think this does show that a utility set isn't out of the realm of possibility and viability for Arghonaut. We can definitely explore some options for Arghonaut to extend its utility, although I don't want to derail Arghonaut as a Pokemon entirely this way, nor do I want to give it a utility purpose that makes it inherently outclassed by other Bulky Waters. This will need creativity!

2. Arghonaut has room for a new ability. I think some in this thread have pointed out that Unaware is still a good ability, and they're absolutely right. However, others have also pointed out that Arghonaut does lack some defensive utility which can be alleviated through a new ability. I think there is room for a new ability, but the ability must walk a fine line between being equally as viable as Unaware and actually useful for Arghonaut's purpose. There are a few options that could fill this line, which we'll get into immediately at the end of this conversation stage.

3. Arghonaut could benefit from stronger moves. I stated this in the OP for the discussion, and I think many people agree with this notion. While some of the moves (Close Combat) seem really weird for it, I think we'll need to think outside the box to fit good moves on Arghonaut that do not sacrifice its utility/bulky attacker role.

4. Arghonaut's concept, "Decentralizer", either cannot be salvaged or needs to shift into something more manageable. While I would still like to use the process of Arghonaut as framework, I will acknowledge that the term "Decentralizer" simply cannot apply to Arghonaut any longer. Therefore, we need to either think of moves and abilities that can tackle specific portions of the metagame, giving it options to combat the meta without actually decentralizing it, or just build on the natural Pokemon itself (typing, stats, etc.).

The first discussion will end Tomorrow at 10:00 AM EST. If you haven't contributed yet, please do so beforehand!
 
One other thought I have in regards to decentralizer is that it can be interpreted to mean "has good matchups against common threats in the metagame" and this can apply to single Pokemon or to entire play styles.

One option that then jumped out to me was giving Arghonaut swift swim. Obviously it's a massive departure from its old gen 4 role, but swift swim Arghonaut could then give rain teams something they currently lack: a good abuser that can hit ferrothorn.

And rain is nothing if not a matchup oriented, destabilizing force in OU.
 
My thoughts on good potential utility moves for Arghonaut:

Scald - Something it's missing that most other bulky waters get. Burn may do less damage, but Arghonaut is basically unbreakable by burned physical threats.
Circle Throw - Updates the old Roar Argh set with an option that dishes out observable damage, especially combined with Bulk Up.
U-turn - Unaware makes Arghonaut a fantastic pivot against a lot of stat-up sweepers. It's middling speed actually becomes a benefit here as it allows you to switch in a Scarfer or another check safely without taking a boosted hit.
Haze - As strange as Haze on an Unaware mon sounds, Argh's bulk still gives it an opportunity to ignore opposing boosts and remove them with Haze to force the sweeper to set up again, if it even can.
Trick Room - Someone else suggested this on PS, and Argh would actually be an intriguing setter of TR, not least because many of the threats it attracts are high-speed, high-offense Pokemon like Tornadus-Therian and Tapu Koko. Tapu Koko really doesn't want to deal with Argh's Earthquake under TR. At the same time, a TR Argho would attract old slower Psychic threats like Reuniclus and bring them into the fore.

I think in Arghonaut's case, CAP already has a glut of hazard removal and Argonaut doesn't add much by being another anti-hazard Pokemon. Removing hazards loses too much momentum for Arghonaut, which should be pressuring the opponent offensively with utility moves serving as a means to that end. By the same token I think hazards on Arghonaut would serve as a distraction and also be a little too powerful. Arghonaut does not need to be the next bulky SR or Spikes setter. Yes, it's fun it laughs as SD Defog Mega Scizor, but that's beside the point.

As far as my Close Combat suggestion, Bulky Attackers are still Attackers, and the goal of an attacker is to KO the opposing Pokemon in front of it. Drain Punch is too weak for this purpose and Cross Chop's accuracy issues do not help it. There are other options, the safest of which is Sacred Sword, but nothing forces quite the same offensive tempo as Close Combat does. Liquidation would benefit as an option with any ability other than Unaware, so if a second ability is considered Liquidation is somewhat an improvement on Waterfall.
 
Step 2A: Ability Update - Competitive and/or Flavor Ability Viability

Okay fellow pirates, great initial discussion! I want people to refer to the previous posts when trying to determine Arghonaut's role in the metagame. My thoughts from my previous post sum up my reaction, and we'll be moving on to the next stages using that framework.

We're going to move on to our next topic, which is Arghonaut and the prospect of an ability update. Our questions are going to focus solely on abilities only (unless specific moves are absolutely necessary to help explain the ability discussion), so keep all other discussion on moves for a later step.

To start off, we need to determine if Arghonaut needs a competitive ability update. For those who are not familiar with Arghonaut, here are its current abilities:

Unaware: Ignores the opponent's stat changes.

...that's it! Arghonaut currently has only one ability, so the capacity to add another ability is definitely at play. The question is, should we add a competitive ability to Arghonaut's arsenal? And should Arghonaut have three abilities as a result, giving room for a flavor addition even if we give it a competitive ability?

Here are my initial thoughts:
  • Arghonaut's ability, Unaware, is still good, but is no longer an obvious benefit for it. With the advent of Fly-Z and power creep, Arghonaut finds itself in OHKO or 2HKO from stat boosters in Generation 7, which can limit the effectiveness of its ability overall. It is absolutely still a competitive ability, and a good one, but I think there's room to add a compliment.
  • As a result, if we add a competitive ability, it must not overshadow the benefits of Unaware. Considering that Unaware is still effective and plays well with Arghonaut's current role, I want a complimenting competitive ability to be equal to or less than the usefulness of Unaware. I don't think it'll be too hard to fill this requirement, since anything above Unaware's usefulness is pretty powerful or doesn't make sense with the concept.
  • Arghonaut will still be a bulky attacker with an added utility purpose, making it fairly defensive. Keep that in mind when suggesting abilities later on, but hold specific suggestions off until we determine if Arghonaut should gain a competitive ability.
  • Regardless, I am for the notion of Arghonaut receiving a new flavor ability. It's going to get at least one new ability. The question is about a new competitive ability. And if one is selected, whether a third flavor ability is something the community wants.
Here are the discussion questions for the first part:
  • Should Arghonaut receive a competitive ability? If so, how should that ability interact with Unaware?
  • How do you see a new competitive ability impacting Arghonaut's usage in the metagame?
  • If a competitive ability is selected, do you believe Arghonaut should be eligible for a third, flavor-based ability?
This discussion will close in 48 hours from now (10:00 AM EST). At the conclusion, I will hold a poll to determine the direction of Arghonaut's abilities and the selection process of those abilities.
 
To answer the first two questions at once, no, I really do not think Argho needs a new ability. Unaware might not be prefect, but it is a very viable and strong ability, and Argho's big issues are a lack of power and lack of utility, both of which are better dealt with using movepool additions. Is tempting to give it something new and better, but I feel that that would be boosting it just to boost it, and not really to address the issues it has.

Now as far as flavor, well, I think Argho should get a new ability, but only one. Going into 5th gen, pretty much every Pokemon got a hidden ability (unless Levitate was their only ability). However, that did not mean they all had three abilities. While there may be some exceptions for pokemon who also got a newly introduced secondary ability, for the most part, Pokemon who had one ability now had two. So, personally I feel that if we forgo a competitive ability, we should have a flavor ability, but if we do choose a competitive ability, that should be our only addition.
 
I agree with jas regarding the number of abilities. There's no real reason for Arghonaut to have three competitive abilities, so I'm all in favor of keeping consistency with other one-ability DPP Pokemon transitioning to later gens, be it through the addition of a single competitive ability or a single flavor ability.

Personally, I think Arghonaut's update would be best handled through movepool additions, so I'm in favor of a flavor ability or a niche competitive option. As an example of this, Bughouse's earlier suggestion of Swift Swim fits this mould pretty nicely. It's restricted to exactly one team type where it would still face stiff competition for a teamslot from the likes of Kingdra and Kabutops, but it would still have a small niche as a swimmer that can muscle past Ferrothorn with Fighting STAB. This is just one example (and I'm not sure DarkSlay really wants us to get into specifics at the moment), but my main point is that I like the idea of either sticking to one flavor ability or one niche competitive ability, not something that's going to give Unaware serious competition.
 
Should Arghonaut receive a competitive ability? If so, how should that ability interact with Unaware?

Yes. Fighting-type is the worst typing you could give an Unaware mon in this generation. It basically makes sure that whatever is setting up on you can still OHKO you without its boosts. Basically, Argh wan'ts an ability that's good in formats where it can't use Unaware anywhere near effectively, like the one we're currently in.

How do you see a new competitive ability impacting Arghonaut's usage in the metagame?

Another competitive ability would greatly increase Arghonaut's actual utility, which seems to be the direction we're aiming for with this mon.

If a competitive ability is selected, do you believe Arghonaut should be eligible for a third, flavor-based ability?

That seems unnecessary. Pirate doesn't really have much flavor as far as Pokemon abilities are concerned.
 
1.) Should Arghonaut receive a competitive ability? If so, how should that ability interact with Unaware?
Arghonaut should receive a competitive ability, and if it does get a competitive ability it shouldn't overshadow Unaware. Unaware should be a genuinely good option to go over the other ability. Slightly similar to Clefables Magic Guard and Unaware.

2.)How do you see a new competitive ability impacting Arghonaut's usage in the metagame?
I think a new competitive ability could go a long way for Arghonaut, a pokemons ability to choose "do I want to beat this or this" is always nice for teambuilding. In adding a new competitive ability makes Arghonaut more versatile and appealing during teambuilding.

3.)If a competitive ability is selected, do you believe Arghonaut should be eligible for a third, flavor-based ability?
I don't know the ins and outs of in-game technicalities but in terms of the process I don't really see a reason not to give it a third ability, however I won't advocate for one either.
 
I mostly agree with what jas said in his above post and I won't bore you by repeating his reasoning. No, Argho doesn't need another competitive ability and a second ability for pure flavor doesn't harm anything. Unaware is an amazing ability and if we try to discourage its use then we change one of the last relevant pieces of ts identity (or at least what I perceive to be its identity, granted it doesn't have much of one left right now). In general I think a lot of people are just undervaluing unaware.
 
The real issue I think is that we need to identify what Unaware is doing for Argh competitively. Right now Argh is fairly good at stopping physical set up Pokemon, but not that great at stopping special setup Pokemon. It's also competing with Mega Slowbro for stopping physical mons because Megabro has higher defense and can't be wiped out by Lando-T Supersonic Skystrike.

After looking over the list, I did think of one ability that would not overshadow Unaware, but would definitely complement it by changing Argho's matchups: Long Reach.

What does Long Reach do? Well, considering Arghonaut iuses almost exclusively Contact attacks and these are exploited by the likes of Ferrothorn, Garchomp, and Rocky Helmet Tomohawk, Long Reach acts as a safeguard to minimize damage from contact items and abilities. Preventing this wear and tear on Arghonaut (as well as opening it up to receive benefits from Liquidation or Razor Shell's stat drops should those modes be added) is a small change, but significant enough to be noticeable.
 
  • Should Arghonaut receive a competitive ability? If so, how should that ability interact with Unaware?
Arghonaut's ability isn't its problem. It could use another ability, especially a niche ability (Ice Body or something along those lines would be good), but its support movepool is by far the bigger issue.
  • How do you see a new competitive ability impacting Arghonaut's usage in the metagame?
Arghonaut's chassis is clearly designed to be defensive and giving it an offense boosting ability is of only moderate value considering it is slow, likely to invest in defenses, and will almost always have three or fewer attacks to with with. A defense boosting ability would either be much worse than Unaware or really gamebreaking.

  • If a competitive ability is selected, do you believe Arghonaut should be eligible for a third, flavor-based ability?
It can be eligible, though if we decide not to give it one I'm fine with that.
 
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