CAP1 - Part 9.5 - (Pre-Evo Typing)

[Bull of Heaven]

To the mono-Fighting crowd: I agree with the idea that this Pokemon should get its wings through evolution, but it seems absurd for a mono-type Pokemon to gain a new primary type after evolving. Fortunately Normal/Fighting gives us the best of both worlds, keeping the prevo non-Flying while avoiding the obvious flavour problem. Normal is the best type to do this with because, to quote another user, it's "seen as the plainest type". It doesn't force the prevo into a particular flavour the evolution doesn't have, in the way a type like Dark or Steel would.

 

[ryik7]

Fighting/Steel

Ascellio (or whatever it will be called) Has a helmet, I can imagine the "chick" to have no feathers and to be inside a shell which it uses as protection until it's fur hardens into feathers, and yes, It is an "egg layer", all pokes are
(Miltank laid an egg!)

Also, is the normal typing neccesary? Just 'cuz it has fur doesn't mean it has to be part-normal, just look at Piloswine and Mareep.

Also, I think it being a flying type is horrible (no offense) since it's design concept of fur hardening into feathers leaves the perfect opportunity for a cute, fluffy pre-evo, and leaving the concept of the pre-evo as a poke with the inability to fly manditory

pokedex idea:When it's fur starts hardening and it starts to try flying, it is a sign it will evolve soon

 

[SupremeDirt]

Steel Fighting for the reasoning given right above me. Not only is it interesting, but it gives potential for the Pre-evo to have higher defenses, thus also being an option with Eviolite.

 

[DetroitLolcat]

Pure Flying

Seems like it. It's primary Flying, and a lot of pokemon get their secondary type on evolution. I could go with Normal/Flying too, but Flying gets my vote.

 

[WhiteMagic]

Change the Order!!!

Fighting

Personally, I think That the new Pokemon should be Fighting/Flying, not Flying/Fighting and that it should gain the Flying type upon evolution. If you made the first Pokemon a cub of sorts, and then it gains the ability to fly, for example in a flavour text, it might read:

"After taking down a Braviary, it takes its pelt, and gains the ability to fly."

Just a thought.

 

[Woodchuck]

While I appreciate your scientific approach to determining what makes a pure Flying type, I must say that type-changers really cant be included in the sample space, as really all pokemon can change types in the right situation (skill swap). As such, the sample space would consist only of Tornadus, and we can't say that because it is wind based, all pure flying types must be.

Not that any of this is a good argument for pure flying. I am just saying that the precedent, or lack thereof, cannot be used to say pure flying must be wind base.

Of course, there is the plenty of precedent of all of the Normal/Flying types that exist. Every Pokemon that has been animal-like that is Flying type has always had a typing other than Flying as its primary.
Therefore, I agree that Flying should not be the only type.
In fact, I agree with those saying Normal/Fighting. As the prevo is largely flavor, we should remain consistent with what Game Freak has done with official flavor. Yes, there is Steelix and Altaria, but a Pokemon has never added a new typing and moved its old typing to secondary upon evolution.
This is why I think it should be Normal/Fighting over Fighting.
Also, I think Normal/Fighting is superior to anything with Flying because the art almost looks like the evolved Pokemon has put on another skin with feathers, as if it were wearing it like an Indian. I find the idea of having a grounded mammal that earns its feathers and flying rights to be rather neat.

 

[Banryu]

To the mono-Fighting crowd: I agree with the idea that this Pokemon should get its wings through evolution, but it seems absurd for a mono-type Pokemon to gain a new primary type after evolving. Fortunately Normal/Fighting gives us the best of both worlds, keeping the prevo non-Flying while avoiding the obvious flavour problem. Normal is the best type to do this with because, to quote another user, it's "seen as the plainest type". It doesn't force the prevo into a particular flavour the evolution doesn't have, in the way a type like Dark or Steel would.

You're taking the definition of 'primary typing' far too seriously. In the CAP process, the 'primary' type is simply the type that is decided first; ergo, it doesn't need to be the type that most defines the mon and its evolutionary family, necessarily.

An example of that would be Flygon. I think most would argue that Dragon is Flygon's primary typing, at yet its first form is not a member of said type. Why can't it be like this for this mon as well? That being said, I don't have a problem with Normal/Fighting, I just think your logic with the whole 'primary type' argument is a little flawed.

While I appreciate your scientific approach to determining what makes a pure Flying type, I must say that type-changers really cant be included in the sample space, as really all pokemon can change types in the right situation (skill swap). As such, the sample space would consist only of Tornadus, and we can't say that because it is wind based, all pure flying types must be.

Not that any of this is a good argument for pure flying. I am just saying that the precedent, or lack thereof, cannot be used to say pure flying must be wind base.

Fair enough. If you want to look at it that way, then you could simply look at Tornadus and Arceus, who are (can in Arceus' case) be pure Flying prior to being sent into battle... The primary point being that all pure flying-types (that can be that way without the use of Skill Swap, or just the former two if you want to look at them) are wingless and thus would appear to be wind-based as a result.

However I do concede the point that those two aren't really broad enough a reference to consider the definition of pure Flying-types, I suppose.
Nonetheless I am still somewhat opposed to pure Flying as this thing's type.

 

[HeavyOctillery]

I agree with Normal/Fighting. I see a cub Pokemon trying to make some fake bird disguise by attaching feathers to itself (much like how Native Americans use a lot of feathers in headdresses & the like), then when it evolves, those feathers (and fake wings, probably) become part of its new anatomy.

 

[jas61292]

Of course, there is the plenty of precedent of all of the Normal/Flying types that exist. Every Pokemon that has been animal-like that is Flying type has always had a typing other than Flying as its primary.
Therefore, I agree that Flying should not be the only type.

As this was responding to my post, I just thought I would clarify, that I actually do support pure Flying. I think it makes a lot of sense, especially since Flying is CAP1's primary type.

Basically, what my previous post was trying to say was that the statement that pure flying denotes wind based is not true. I was trying to make the point that we do not have a large enough sample space to accurately determine what pure flying should or should not be. My last statement was trying to say that this fact does not necessarily mean it should be pure flying, but that using this fact (or lack thereof) to say it shouldn't would not be a good argument.

Once again, I would like to say that I definitely do like pure Flying (among others), but I do not want to see it be part Normal just because it is a mammal. As I said in my first post, no matter how many times people repeat it, Mammal does not equal Normal.

EDIT:

Fair enough. If you want to look at it that way, then you could simply look at Tornadus and Arceus, who are (can in Arceus' case) be pure Flying prior to being sent into battle... The primary point being that all pure flying-types (that can be that way without the use of Skill Swap, or just the former two if you want to look at them) are wingless and thus would appear to be wind-based as a result.

However I do concede the point that those two aren't really broad enough a reference to consider the definition of pure Flying-types, I suppose.
Nonetheless I am still somewhat opposed to pure Flying as this thing's type.

Well, personally I don't even consider Arceus, as it is not based on anything flying (or fire, or water, or anything when it is that type), and Tornadus by itself is not good sample. I can understand people's hesitation due to lack of any precedent, for or against, but I am mainly trying to say that if it is going to be part Flying, it should not have to have Normal as well. Flying can be independent, and there is nothing saying a pure Flying can't be bird/mammal based.

On a different note, to those who say it shouldn't be flying because it, well, shouldn't fly, I would like to direct your attention to Doduo and Dodrio.

"A bird that makes up for its poor flying with its fast foot speed. Leaves giant footprint" -Doduo's blue Pokedex entry

Like our Pokemon, it may not be able to fly well (ours will eventually fly, so i would imagine it would at least look like it could develop the ability to fly), but that doesn't mean it can't be flying type.

 

[Paradox]

Flying/Fighting is cool. There's no reason to change it really, and it keeps a typing that could make it a valuable momentum-mon in LC. I don't really get why absolutely no LC merit is being considered, as that's the only way this guy is getting used. We're not supposed to be entirely focused on competitive aspects, but there's nothing wrong with being useful/balancing for LC. We have the chance, why not take it? Also, I guess from a flavour perspective Normal/Fighting is pretty cool. All of the rest seem pretty lame/convoluted to me.

As for logistics, the typing won't be changed to Fighting/Flying and there is nothing wrong with mono-Flying.

 

[Unlimited Breadsticks]

Normal / Fighting

Interesting type combo that could benefit solely from being a unique combination with Normal STAB, which actually has pretty passable conjunction with Fighting despite the whole "ghosts are immune to both."

 

[Woodchuck]

As this was responding to my post, I just thought I would clarify, that I actually do support pure Flying. I think it makes a lot of sense, especially since Flying is CAP1's primary type.

Basically, what my previous post was trying to say was that the statement that pure flying denotes wind based is not true. I was trying to make the point that we do not have a large enough sample space to accurately determine what pure flying should or should not be. My last statement was trying to say that this fact does not necessarily mean it should be pure flying, but that using this fact (or lack thereof) to say it shouldn't would not be a good argument.

Once again, I would like to say that I definitely do like pure Flying (among others), but I do not want to see it be part Normal just because it is a mammal. As I said in my first post, no matter how many times people repeat it, Mammal does not equal Normal.

EDIT:



Well, personally I don't even consider Arceus, as it is not based on anything flying (or fire, or water, or anything when it is that type), and Tornadus by itself is not good sample. I can understand people's hesitation due to lack of any precedent, for or against, but I am mainly trying to say that if it is going to be part Flying, it should not have to have Normal as well. Flying can be independent, and there is nothing saying a pure Flying can't be bird/mammal based.

On a different note, to those who say it shouldn't be flying because it, well, shouldn't fly, I would like to direct your attention to Doduo and Dodrio.

"A bird that makes up for its poor flying with its fast foot speed. Leaves giant footprint" -Doduo's blue Pokedex entry

Like our Pokemon, it may not be able to fly well (ours will eventually fly, so i would imagine it would at least look like it could develop the ability to fly), but that doesn't mean it can't be flying type.

I should clarify. I was agreeing with the person you were responding to. I disagreed with you, but I fully understood what you were saying.
Now I hope you'll possibly respond to the actual arguments in my post.
And Doduo and Dodrio have at least some flying skill, albeit poor, and they resemble birds. It follows they would have the flying type.
It does not, on the other hand, follow that the pre-evolution would need to be able to fly at all, resemble a bird (which it doesn't) or have any apparent way of obtaining feathers apart from wearing a "costume", which it indeed appears to be doing.

 

[DarkSlay]

My take on the types displayed so far:

Fighting as a standalone type itself is a good typing, and does make a lot of sense in terms of the transition from cub to aerial threat. A lot of Cartoons!' current backstory contains information regarding CAP1's quills hardening over time, allowing it flight. While it does indeed have quills, soft quills don't really allow any room for flight, since they do not produce the aerodynamic wind flows most birds ride and soar on. This makes the most sense flavor-wise if we want to go down the "cub to grown Pokemon" route.

If instead we wish to go the "untrained to trained" route, I'd recommend Flying / Normal. This places a huge emphasis in that it can fly, but has not mastered the arts of Fighting just yet. The Normal typing represents CAP1 in its most primal form as well.

Weak support to Flying / Fighting as there really isn't anything wrong with keeping CAP1's main typing. It is, however, a bit boring, and the given backstory (plus the creative willpower the CAP community possesses) really would allow more creativity for a different (yet similar) typing. This kind of is the ho-hum pick, where it's safe, but obvious.

Flying as a standalone type may seem tempting, but there are a few issues with this. One, there really isn't a huge flavor reason to make this pure Flying other than "Flying is CAP1's main type", which quite honestly really isn't a reason at all when you think about it. Yeah, you're right, but...what does that have to do with CAP1's story and background and development? I feel that it's a bit weak of an idea. Two, there currently is one true pure Flying type in the game (Arceus does NOT count, since Arceus' design and purpose does not give the connotation of "pure Flying" whatsoever since...that's not really what it is.): Tornadus. Tornadus doesn't have wings, though, and instead relies on a cloud to fly (much like the other genies). However, according to the current backstory, CAP1 does indeed have wings of some sort (fur that resembles feathers at the very least), but cannot gain flight until it stiffens the fur. It just cannot fly until evolved. So, this backstory (at least to me) doesn't add up to a Flying monotype pre-evo.

Normal / Fighting is pretty much the same as standalone Fighting, but with an added Fighting weakness and Ghost immunity (remember, movepools for CAP projects aren't necessarily type restricted fully). I don't think Normal is necessary to create a transformation to Flying after evolution, so it provides the same, if not less, flavor reasons as pure Fighting. Pure Fighting seems the superior choice.

Flying / Dark makes absolutely no sense to me. Nothing really suggests that CAP1 is a Dark type or should have Dark roots. While it looks like a "shaman" I suppose, a shaman himself isn't evil, but rather just practices rituals that he believes are good and beneficial. Not to mention that this technically is the pre-evo of said design, not even the shaman design. I don't see a flavor reason to have this at all (especially if the previous point is the only point supporting the Dark typing).

Flying / Steel makes even less sense. It's "cool" to use Eviolite for this Pokemon, but the only rationale I see is that Steel gives it more resistances for a defensive pre-evo. That's not a great reason, since aside from a competitive positive...there's not really any reason why a Steel typing makes sense here. Not sure how helmets = Steel, especially when helmets can be made of leather, feathers, and *gasp* fur. Steel makes 0 sense to this CAP.

 

[NDenizen]

Seems to me the argument is split into:

Derived -
Begins on Land: Fighting, Normal/Fighting, Normal/Fighting
Always Airborne: Flying, Flying/Fighting, Flying/Normal

Significant Typing Change upon evolution -
Begins on Land: Fighting/Dark, Steel/Fighting
Always Airborne: Flying/Dark, Flying/Steel

As before, i'm advocating this CAP shakes up typing somehow, in the vein of Steelix, Masquerain, etc.
I think Steel is a bit too much of a stretch, however, and Dark/Fighting is conflicting - I also feel a Normal variant is a bit too bland and meaningless, as are the suggestions this CAP should stay the same or only change slightly. Pure Flying I don't think is too radical an idea, though - Flying was the primary choice for the Cap, and I think it should be always present in the typing, Primary or Secondary, whatever.

So i'm going to once again suggest Flying/Dark, due to it encompassing many aspects of the CAP and providing some interesting opportunities for moves and designs.

Flying / Dark makes absolutely no sense to me. Nothing really suggests that CAP1 is a Dark type or should have Dark roots. While it looks like a "shaman" I suppose, a shaman himself isn't evil, but rather just practices rituals that he believes are good and beneficial. Not to mention that this technically is the pre-evo of said design, not even the shaman design. I don't see a flavor reason to have this at all (especially if the previous point is the only point supporting the Dark typing).

"Dark" isn't black magic or shamanism anything (people will never understand this), it's unconventional and dirty tactics. This prevo-CAP would I imagine be a young mischievous tribal warrior that tricks its opponents with its bird-appearance and abilities, so it fits pretty well, I think. The evolution from young dishonourable Warrior -> older stronger Warrior itself would work.

 

[jas61292]

Flying / Dark makes absolutely no sense to me. Nothing really suggests that CAP1 is a Dark type or should have Dark roots. While it looks like a "shaman" I suppose, a shaman himself isn't evil, but rather just practices rituals that he believes are good and beneficial. Not to mention that this technically is the pre-evo of said design, not even the shaman design. I don't see a flavor reason to have this at all (especially if the previous point is the only point supporting the Dark typing).

I think one of the main points for this typing was that it would be using more mischievous strategies as a prevo. This corresponds well with Dark type. As Fighting type usually represents martial arts, which are know for things like honorable tactics, going from a underhanded, sneaky Dark Pokemon to an honorable Fighting type could make sense. It would also give Prankster a flavor reason to exist, as to me it doesn't really fit in with the current design and typing.

Edit:

I should clarify. I was agreeing with the person you were responding to. I disagreed with you, but I fully understood what you were saying.
Now I hope you'll possibly respond to the actual arguments in my post.
And Doduo and Dodrio have at least some flying skill, albeit poor, and they resemble birds. It follows they would have the flying type.
It does not, on the other hand, follow that the pre-evolution would need to be able to fly at all, resemble a bird (which it doesn't) or have any apparent way of obtaining feathers apart from wearing a "costume", which it indeed appears to be doing.

Ok, as I have repeatedly said, I don't think Tornadus is enough of a sample space to really determine what should be pure flying and what shouldn't. That being said, I also agree that this prevo would not necessarily have to fly. But that doesn't mean it shouldn't fly. That is just a matter of opinion. It seems to me like you are set on it not flying, which is a valid opinion, but not necessarily one which I share. My point with Doduo is that a Pokemon doesn't need to be able to fly well, be shown in the air or have large wings to be flying type. A young cub that struggles to fly would be just as valid as a Flying-type as many current Pokemon. Kinda makes me think of Vullaby. (Can Vullaby fly anyway?).

But once again, as someone who sees nothing wrong with having a Flying prevo my main support for pure flying was simply stemming from the fact that I don't want to see it have a Normal type thrown on it for no reason just because people don't feel pure flying should be done. I would definitely be open to a pure Fighting prevo, but if is is going to fly, either stay with Fly/Fight, or go pure Flying.

 

[zyrefredric]

Normal / Fighting

Interesting type combo that could benefit solely from being a unique combination with Normal STAB, which actually has pretty passable conjunction with Fighting despite the whole "ghosts are immune to both."

Not that unique, with Meloetta-Pirouette around. But yes, I also believe Normal / Fighting is the most appropriate typing as far as flavor goes. For advocates of pure Fighting, there is not much difference with this. I guess it just goes to preference, but for me, adhering to precedence is a plus.

 

[Woodchuck]

Just want to point out that Tomohawk has been chosen as CAP 1's name, and that could have an influence on where we want to go with the pre-evo.
Too tired to think of anything right now...

 

[DFrog]

Normal/Fighting
For Brammi's reasoning

 

[Rising_Dusk]

Alright, after reviewing the posts since my last one, I'm not really convinced for the new typing ideas. Steel / Fighting is really far-fetched, Flying / Dark is pushing it and seems to suggest some evil-to-good transition in the CAP that I'm not really feeling. Steel / Fighting, Flying / Dark.

I've decided to slate Normal / Flying because I really do think the "learning to fight" logic is strong for CAP1. Just as it could be interpreted to gain its wings in evolution, it could also undertake some rite of passage whereby it learns all of its aura techniques, much like how when a native undergoes a rite of passage to become the shaman for a tribe.

Slate:
Flying / Fighting
Normal / Fighting
Flying / Normal
Fighting
Flying

Expect a poll shortly.