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Castform (Revamp)

Reliking

I think the main reason I love Castform so much is that it's often overlooked as being a Novelty pokemon, but in actuality, it can be used to slight success. Although it may not be the most competitive choice, it sure can give the opponent a head ache if used correctly. I didn't create any new sets, because really Castform only has four options. Also, the current analysis is bloody awful, and although I agree with Castform being very bad in todays metagame, two lines for each set is not acceptable. (And sorry about my skeleton, I think I put in a tad too much flesh, haha)

TO DO:
-Calcs on Common Rain Dance and Sunny Day threats
-Finalize the EV spreads.

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http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/castform

[Overview]

-Why Castform's humble stats and lack of proper STAB hinder it's usefulness.
-Explains how a colorful movepool and it's usefulness on low tier Weather teams help it succeed.
-Explains that Castform is mostly a novelty pokemon, but having a few decent options that can help it earn a place on a team.
-Why Castform isn't used very much: Low Speed, low Defenses.


[SET]
name: Anti-Weather
move 1: Thunder
move 2: Fire Blast
move 3: Hidden Power Rock / Hidden Power Ground
move 4: Ice Beam / Thunder Wave
nature : Modest
item: Life Orb
evs: 176 HP / 252 SpA / 80 Spe


[Set Comments]
-Why Castform is outclassed everywhere except here.
-Tells why Castform is only usable in very extreme circumstances
-Why a team would need this set (Eg, Horrible weather weakness, pokemon too slow to handle Clorophyll and Swift Swimmers.
-Life Orb= Better damage but Castform is already low on Defenses as it is, Less HP can't help it.
-Expert Belt= Uses Castform's coverage very well, and keeps it's HP intact
-Outside of an opposing weather, almost completely useless.
-Instructions on Use: Sunny Day: Use Hydro Pump, HP Ground on fires, Weather Ball on grasses. Rain Dance: HP Ground on Electrics, Thunder on Waters, etc.
-Why Rapid Spin Support is very vital to keeping Castform alive
-Explains HP Rock v. Ground, and how while Ground hits Fires and Electrics, Rock can hit Moltres and Charizard extremely well.
-Putting EVs in SpD a good idea, but Speed EVs help more outside of weather.

Additional Comments:

-Because weather is not extremely common, it's necessary to have a team that can easily hold it's own without relying on a 6th team mate.
-Someone who can switch in on Castform's fighting weakness is well appreciated, along with rapid spin.



[Optional Changes]

-Toxic and Thunder wave are usable.
-Not much else because everything he can do, another poke usually does better.

[Counters]

-Anything that can hit hard really kills Castform's chances. It is also walled by the likes of Regirock.
-Castform is extremely fragile, so really there isn't a need to directly counter it. In the high tiers, basically everything finds a way to KO him, but in the lower ones, if it can outspeed you it's a slight threat.
-Chansey and Blissey wall it to utter death, because it has no viable psychical options. At worst you'll get paralyzed or poisoned, but Aroma Theropy remedies this as well.
 
Castform is a pokemon of many faults.

For one, it's an inferior weather abuser, at least stats wise. Virtually any fire type has higher stats in every place compared to castform; Arcanine in UU and Entei in NU have better stats as Sunny Day Sweepers, any rain sweeper outclasses it (too many to list), and Regice outclasses it on a hail team (with lower speed but better everything else and a similar movepool to boot).

Second, the choice specs set is outclassed by literally every normal type; Exploud, Clefable, and even Lickilicky can all pull off the same thing, just with better stats. When ambipom almost outclasses it for a special set, you know it's time to move on.

The main problem with castform is that it has too many disadvantages for its coverage to offset. It's not fast, it's not bulky, it's not powerful, and it doesn't have the best type. Not only that, but it's outclassed, no matter how diverse it tries to be.

The only use I can see for castform is if you really (and I mean really) fear other weather teams and are running one yourself (and also want paralysis support). However, even this is highly situational, and castform will not easily save you from a weather team.
 
Breludicolo said:
Castform is a pokemon of many faults.

For one, it's an inferior weather abuser, at least stats wise. Virtually any fire type has higher stats in every place compared to castform; Arcanine in UU and Entei in NU have better stats as Sunny Day Sweepers, any rain sweeper outclasses it (too many to list), and Regice outclasses it on a hail team (with lower speed but better everything else and a similar movepool to boot).

Second, the choice specs set is outclassed by literally every normal type; Exploud, Clefable, and even Lickilicky can all pull off the same thing, just with better stats. When ambipom almost outclasses it for a special set, you know it's time to move on.

The main problem with castform is that it has too many disadvantages for its coverage to offset. It's not fast, it's not bulky, it's not powerful, and it doesn't have the best type. Not only that, but it's outclassed, no matter how diverse it tries to be.

The only use I can see for castform is if you really (and I mean really) fear other weather teams and are running one yourself (and also want paralysis support). However, even this is highly situational, and castform will not easily save you from a weather team.
Click to expand...

Agreed, and I definitely am willing to put a little less praise into the guide, and flat out "Tell it like it is".

However, just simply listing all of the issues that Castform has doesn't make an analysis effective. I think toning down the guide would work, but by no means will I make it "Castform sux cuz it stats r teh bad" like what many would do. Maybe I just see the glass full, because while I agree castform's uses are extremely limited, he has a lot more potential then many think, in my opinion.
 
i personally think the only asset that castform has over some other sweepers is weather ball, a trait only victreebell shares. it also carries amazing type coverage, though this is hindered by its low stats overall.
 
I'll be blunt.

1. I don't think there are NU analyses yet. So this has to be catered to UU.
2. Castform is outclassed by everything. Specs... you know. Rain Dance? Lanturn. Sunny Day Sweeper? 70 Special Attack and Speed is sweeping what again? Using Hydro Pump in the Sun is a bad idea. Hail Support? Hail teams are mostly stallish and employ Toxic Spikes. What would you Thunder Wave then?
3. I just don't know what Castform could accomplish that others couldn't do better. Even with Weather Ball... Fire Blast? Hydro Pump? Blizzard? They pretty much outclass Weather Ball since Castform needs all the damage it can do to other Pokemon.
 
YaM said:
I'll be blunt.

1. I don't think there are NU analyses yet. So this has to be catered to UU.
2. Castform is outclassed by everything. Specs... you know. Rain Dance? Lanturn. Sunny Day Sweeper? 70 Special Attack and Speed is sweeping what again? Using Hydro Pump in the Sun is a bad idea. Hail Support? Hail teams are mostly stallish and employ Toxic Spikes. What would you Thunder Wave then?
3. I just don't know what Castform could accomplish that others couldn't do better. Even with Weather Ball... Fire Blast? Hydro Pump? Blizzard? They pretty much outclass Weather Ball since Castform needs all the damage it can do to other Pokemon.
Click to expand...

this is very true, but i still think castform needs an upgrade from its current state, which is utterly pathetic (i mean look at its page =.=).'

also, fire blast h-pump and blizzard do not entirely outclass weather ball. weather ball provides a balance between power and accuracy.
 
as everyone has said, castform is pretty much outclassed by everything. The only set I can think of as useul is an anti-weather pokemon with weather ball, hydro pump, thunder, and a filler (HP ground?). This lets it counter rain dance (with thunder and HP) and sunny day (weather ball and hydro pump). Of course it really cant switch in. And is inferior to golduck to an extent, which is sad.
 
So reading the comments I'm debating whether to remove Choice Specs and the weathers altogether and only leave it with an anti weather set?

Castform is extremely outclassed, and I think the anti-weather set is the only thing it can use to differentiate itself. Even then, it would only work in some extreme cases. (But it's use could possibly go up with the increase of Rain Dance dominance in the lower tiers. Of course, Weather is still not extremely common.)
 
OK, so I love Castform, so all that I say here is trying to help you.

1. What is the Speed for? If Castform is going to be an Anti-Weather counter, it's not going to be outrunning anything with Swift Swim or Chlorophyll. So, I suggest putting those Speed evs into SpD or HP.

2. You have to replace either Hydro Pump or Weather Ball with Fire Blast to counter sun teams, as half of all sun sweepers are Grass types and the Fire types are taking piss damage from Hydro Pump under the sun. Also, Fire Blast is needed to counter Hail teams.

3. Replace Hidden Power Ground with Hidden Power Rock as you still hit Fire types for super effective damage and has the added benefit of hitting Moltres who would otherwise wall you.

4. You have to mention that Castform cannot switch into any attack from the rain and sun sweepers. Castform has just enough bulk to take one hit, and then OHKO the sweeper with either Thunder or Fire Blast.

5. Mention Rapid Spin support as Castform only has a small chance to survive a CB Kabutops Stone Edge, and if there's SR or Spikes on the field, Castform has no chance to survive.

6. To me the set should look like this:

name: Anti-Weather
move 1: Fire Blast
move 2: Thunder
move 3: Hidden Power Rock
move 4: Ice Beam / Energy Ball
nature : Modest
item: Life Orb
evs: 252 Def / 80 SpA / 176 SpD
 
name: Anti-Weather
move 1: Fire Blast
move 2: Thunder
move 3: Hidden Power Rock
move 4: Energy Ball / Thunder Wave
nature : Modest
item: Life Orb
evs: 252 HP / 88 Def / 80 SpA / 88 SpD
Click to expand...

In all honesty, I like this set Oglemi made much more than the current ones ; it does seem like it can actually do something. However, Ice Beam should be deslashed (you're not hitting SS pokes for any damage and become setup bait with nonstab ice beam and little SpA) and the evs could be better.. 252/88/88 takes hits better than 252/176, I think. Thunder Wave is a nice option too if you care less about Kabutops (for how much is it hit with a thunder?)

In all honesty though, I don't see what castform is going to be doing against a Sunny Day team. It may get a surprise kill on a Moltres (which I admit is an accomplishment in itself), but it practically can't switch into any of the grass types at all, due to the vast majority possesing sleep powder, essentially turning castform into... sleep fodder
 
Oglemi said:
OK, so I love Castform, so all that I say here is trying to help you.

1. What is the Speed for? If Castform is going to be an Anti-Weather counter, it's not going to be outrunning anything with Swift Swim or Chlorophyll. So, I suggest putting those Speed evs into SpD or HP.

2. You have to replace either Hydro Pump or Weather Ball with Fire Blast to counter sun teams, as half of all sun sweepers are Grass types and the Fire types are taking piss damage from Hydro Pump under the sun. Also, Fire Blast is needed to counter Hail teams.

3. Replace Hidden Power Ground with Hidden Power Rock as you still hit Fire types for super effective damage and has the added benefit of hitting Moltres who would otherwise wall you.

4. You have to mention that Castform cannot switch into any attack from the rain and sun sweepers. Castform has just enough bulk to take one hit, and then OHKO the sweeper with either Thunder or Fire Blast.

5. Mention Rapid Spin support as Castform only has a small chance to survive a CB Kabutops Stone Edge, and if there's SR or Spikes on the field, Castform has no chance to survive.

6. To me the set should look like this:

name: Anti-Weather
move 1: Fire Blast
move 2: Thunder
move 3: Hidden Power Rock
move 4: Ice Beam / Energy Ball
nature : Modest
item: Life Orb
evs: 252 Def / 80 SpA / 176 SpD
Click to expand...

Speed was for moments where Castform was needed outside of a battle against weather. I could put the SpD in the set and in the analysis explain that one could also use Speed. HP Ground kills electrics in rain, but yes Rock would cover Moltres much better. I'll put both as an option.

Thanks for the help. I love Castform too
 
Breludicolo said:
In all honesty, I like this set Oglemi made much more than the current ones ; it does seem like it can actually do something. However, Ice Beam should be deslashed (you're not hitting SS pokes for any damage and become setup bait with nonstab ice beam and little SpA) and the evs could be better.. 252/88/88 takes hits better than 252/176, I think. Thunder Wave is a nice option too if you care less about Kabutops (for how much is it hit with a thunder?)

In all honesty though, I don't see what castform is going to be doing against a Sunny Day team. It may get a surprise kill on a Moltres (which I admit is an accomplishment in itself), but it practically can't switch into any of the grass types at all, due to the vast majority possesing sleep powder, essentially turning castform into... sleep fodder
Click to expand...

With 252 SpA EVs it 1HKO's pretty much everything Sunny Day usually uses. (It also 1HKOs moltres with Stealth Rock. If no Stealth Rock theres a sizable chance of a KO)
 
Comments in bold:

Oglemi said:
OK, so I love Castform, so all that I say here is
trying to help you.

1. What is the Speed for? If Castform is going to be an Anti-Weather counter, it's not going to be outrunning anything with Swift Swim or Chlorophyll. So, I suggest putting those Speed evs into SpD or HP.

2. You have to replace either Hydro Pump or Weather Ball with Fire Blast to counter sun teams, as half of all sun sweepers are Grass types and the Fire types are taking piss damage from Hydro Pump under the sun. Also, Fire Blast is needed to counter Hail teams.

3. Replace Hidden Power Ground with Hidden Power Rock as you still hit Fire types for super effective damage and has the added benefit of hitting Moltres who would otherwise wall you. HP Grass is a good option because it hits kabutops and omastar for massive damage (and other waters too).

4. You have to mention that Castform cannot switch into any attack from the rain and sun sweepers. Castform has just enough bulk to take one hit, and then OHKO the sweeper with either Thunder or Fire Blast. I don't think it can switch into an attack with 70/70/70 defenses. it wil need a completely free switch in (this doesn't count kabutops' SD or qwilfish's SD).

5. Mention Rapid Spin support as Castform only has a small chance to survive a CB Kabutops Stone Edge, and if there's SR or Spikes on the field, Castform has no chance to survive. AGREED

6. To me the set should look like this:

name: Anti-Weather
move 1: Fire Blast I think Weather Ball is a better option. better acc, not a significant decrease in power, and can become a water type move in rain.
move 2: Thunder Not needed. Thunder only covers Pokemon like Kabutops and Omastar who are killed better by Energy Ball. In the end the only significant thing it covers is Qwilfish.
move 3: Hidden Power Rock HP Ground maybe to cover Qwilfish or Heatran maybe?
move 4: Ice Beam / Energy Ball Energy Ball should be the first slash IMO because of the immediate threat of Kabutops, whereas Weather Ball in sun can take things like Victreebel or Exeggutor.
nature : Modest
item: Life Orb
evs: 252 Def / 80 SpA / 176 SpD
Click to expand...
 
I really think QC needs a formalized process for dealing with Pokemon who are so shitty that they are outclassed by most things anyway. I mean, we can't just leave the analysis in their barely-current gen state, but it's also hard to approve something that just sucks.

My personal view on this is that instead of saying "this is outclassed" in the case of Pokemon like this, we merely say "is this the best this Pokemon can do". There are some cases where "this is outclassed" is a valid argument (see: Roar Ninetales) but sometimes a certain set is the best a Pokemon can manage and, unless we're willing to leave its analysis empty, that set should be uploaded.

All that said, this set is not the best Castform can do. You have a Life Orb set that has 0 Spe, very little SpA, and inefficient defensive investment. Even if Castform is supposed to be "anti-weather", base 70 Spe has quite a few benchmarks it can hit, the least of which should be outrunning Adamant Rhyperior (16 EVs) and the most preferable being outrunning 4 Spe Milotic (96 EVs). The SpA should also be maximized, with the remaining investment in HP. Weather Ball should definitely be included as a move option, as well as either Sunny Day or Rain Dance to screw with the opposing weather, and then finally a main coverage move (I'm thinking Thunderbolt) and some slashed-in coverage moves. That's a very roughshod analysis of this, but those are just the obvious optimizations I'm noticing.
 
I think castform could make a decent sandstorm special sweeper/wallish thing. In the lower tiers only. Just because of its 100 BP Rock special STAB and the sdef boost.

Castform@Leftovers
Modest
200 HP/252 satk/56 sdef
Weather Ball
Hydro Pump
Ice Beam
Energy Ball/Thunderbolt

maybe sub?
 
Castform doesn't change in Sandstorm, unfortunately. Also, I don't think Castform would be a "wallish thing" with base 70 defenses, even with the SpD boost in Sandstorm. Anyway, this Castform update should be redone, as I don't really see the Anti-Weather set accomplishing anything, and it's much better off setting up weather.
 
I really just do not see how Castform is countering weather. Against Rain you get outsped and OHKO'd. Same with Sun. Against sandstorm teams, castform can not really hurt anything. I was testing this out and it just completly failed to counter anything.
 
I'm offering this set up for potential locking. Many people have agreed that the "Anti-Weather" set wasn't good, and this thread hasn't been worked on for almost three months now. Also, it lacks detail and a Team Options section. Additionally, Reliking has been absent from Smogon since the end of October. Hopefully someone else will want to update Castform, so it doesn't end up in the gutter...
 
Yeah, thanks for bumping this Flashrider. I'm lockin' and movin'. If someone decides to update Castform, please use this thread as a reference for what should and should not go in the OP.
 
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