I guess he's using a rain team??
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Chandelure
- Thread starter tennisace
- Start date
(I'm answering SJCrew, too)
I don't think it's my competition's fault, I'm doing quite good on the PO ladder.
So let me explain:
I never said Shandera does not get kills against me, it's just that when it gets, they do not trouble me (more than other stuff). That's mostly because they are revenge kills against weakened Pokemon that I couldn't have switched in another time anyway. Like I said somewhere, most of these kills Dugtrio and/or Scarftar could have done as well.
Also, before you read the rest, remember that I did not say I was completely immune to Shandera or anything. It would just not be on my Top 10 threats list and I just wanted to answer Lee who implied that nobody would not be afraid of Shandera.
I was asked for my current team:
- Rotom-W
- Ttar
- Doryuzu
- Goruggo
- Shinpora
- Breloom
As you may notice, there ARE quite a few Shandera weaknesses on there. But like I said, my strategy works pretty well against it. What you may not immediately notice: My team relies on heavy paralysis support. And you can imagine: A paralysed Shandera is a dead Shandera. Also, I'm a great fan of Subs. And actually, my Shandera-weak Pokemon feature Substitute. Let's look at Goruggo, for example: 100% Shandera bait. But due to its great typing, I mainly come in on things that cannot even touch me, and thus I have the opportunity to Sub without risking too much. And of course, if Shandera comes in on me while I sub (or happen to go for EQ or Stone Edge right away), it is dead. Shinpora does a similar thing. If I sub or T-Wave on Shandera, it's a trade if I'm unlucky, but in most cases Shandera cannot do much to me. Breloom is an interesting case. He's the one I tend to lose to Shandera the easiest. Nonetheless, it won't switch on Spore, obviously. I often tend to switch to Ttar right after a Spore. When this happens, I often take Shandera without it doing anything to me. The final factor, obviously, is that my win condition is Doryuzu sweeping, which means Shandera does not bother me in late game. I played rather similar in Gen 4 already (sandstorm/paralysis/sub/...), so that's probably why I was very underwhelmed when I first saw Shandera on DW PO. Like a said, a lot of that depends on the very specific way my team works, but I hope I can make a few more general points, too.
So to summarize:
- Put random counters on Shandera bait. SE moves work, but setup is less risky. Substitute and Thunderwave work great for me, Rock Polish and other stuff may be helpful, too.
- Double-switch Breloom after Spore (it is usually a good idea anyway, since your opponent will not leave his sleeping Pokemon in)
- Stay calm. I think many people have this "OMG KILL IT WITH FIRE REFLEX!" and possibly happen to waste a lot of turns of free setup on -2 SpAtk Shandera.
- I also noticed that you can predict Shandera quite easily, even if you haven't seen it yet, but even more if you're sure your opponent has one. Lee is right when he says that Shandera causes players to use a certain play style. If my enemy lets my Breloom Spore something important (and non-sleeptalking), he obviously has the hope to eliminate Breloom early enough so his Pokemon has time to wake up. If my foe tends to do very expensive moves just to bring a Sub down, he has a frail counter (often Shandera).
So well, I do not have a perfect strategy to fight Shandera, either. But I'd like to point out that Gen 5 is not so much about countering or your number of Pokemon left, but about setups. And Shandera often tends to give away free setups, which isn't making it bad, of course. But in many situations, it reminds me of Ttar locked in Pursuit. And I believe there are good ways to play around Shandera. I must also say I understand when teams have problems with it. It definitely is a metagame-shaping Pokemon. In its effect, I predict it to be kinda similar to BulletPunch Scizor: It is an extremely powerful Pokemon with a unique niche that all by itself will keep certain things away from OU and invite certain things into OU. But it's also something, the metagame is able to abjust to, IMO. Like I said, you will have to get used to switching out Breloom just for safety (just like Lefties Skarms always used Whirlwind first in Gen 4). I have already seen some Sub Riopushins (some WITH Guts lol), just to ensure the Payback. What makes Shandera not overcentralizing IMHO, is that both of these examples remain viable in a world without Shandera (Breloom will see a counter anyways and Riopushin can hit Espeon and a lot of other stuff). But that's just my guess.
Btw: You are now realizing Scarf (Cloud Nine) Golduck brutally rapes 5 of my 6 Pokemon. You can imagine how I realized that... lol
Cloud Nine doesn't remove weather completely, just delay it and prevent its effects from occuring while the Cloud Nine Pokemon is in battle. Only Air Lock removes weather entirely.
Why are we discussing Golduck again? This is a thread about a good Pokemon.
Why are we discussing Golduck again? This is a thread about a good Pokemon.
^ Air Lock does not remove weather. It does the exact same thing as Cloud Nine.
He's hardly the first thing to change teams merely by existing. Stealth Rock, anyone? Besides, if you're using Choiced Rapid Spin then I'm not sure Shandera is really the cause of your problems there.
Uh, I'm not sure what your point is? If Shandera changes the metagame...so what? With around 150 new Pokemon and a boatload of new abilities, you should expect the Gen V metagame to change. Don't complain, adapt; if you use Gen IV teams in a Gen V metagame and get screwed, that's not Gen V's fault.
Alright then. I assumed that Air Lock was special because it's exclusive to Rayquaza, and would completely remove weather effects. Doesn't stop Golduck from being terrible.
(As an aside, if weather is so powerful that it makes mediocre Pokemon like Golduck or Altaria OU, isn't that overcentralising?)
His point is that a Gen IV team can take a Gen V team... without Shandera, but no team without Shandera can take a team with Shandera assuming near equal skill.
Whether it's true is another matter entirely, but you should really stop posting if you can't understand something so simple.
I completely agree with this. The idea that every OU Pokemon must have at least one true counter is ridicules. There are 649 Pokemon. Unless you want to ban a hell of a lot of them to Ubers, there are going to be Pokemon, like Shandera, without counters. Let's look at Ononokusu: massive Atk stat and an ability that nullifies Levitate. What Pokemon, besides Skarmory, can safely switch into that beast? There are many Pokemon out there that don't have true counters. Many must be revenge killed. At this point, it's stupid to think that they must be banned to Ubers. It's simply another change in the metagame.
Suicune can quite happily switch in and shit on your Onono with Ice Beam. If it's a DD set or SD set, a Scarfed Garchomp (or Flygon, Salamence, Sazandora, whatever) can switch in and DM/Outrage you to death. Choiced sets get walled by Skarmory or Nattorei (or any Steel which isn't weak to Ground, really).
Shandera doesn't let you switch. The very definition of countering something requires that you can switch in in the first fucking place.
By the way, do you have any more examples of Pokemon which have no true counters? The only one which comes to mind is Mew, and that's because of surprise value rather than being powerful. (No, Lucario is not an acceptable answer. Or Infernape. They're hard to predict, not uncounterable.)
Wasn't this what happened to Salamence, and oh! look where he ended up at the end of 4th gen
Forretress, Nattorei, maybe Registeel if it's choice locked into Outrage or Shadow Claw... you get the idea. He's not uncounterable.
Did you know that Shandera gets Acid armor?:
Shandera "Liquid Flame"
@Leftovers
Flash Fire
Calm
252 sp attck 216 spd 48 sp def
nitro charge
acid armor
flamethrower
shadow ball
'Nuff said.
the idea is to switch in on a fire attak, and gain the flash fire boost, then when the opponent switches out, use acid armor, and with shandera's base 90 defense stat boosted by acid armor, it becomes really hard to kill. This usually gives you enough time to get at least one nitro charge in, which puts Shandera's speed at 375, you then proceed to burn the opponent with STAB flamethrower, with shadow ball mixed in for good measure.
Or, more offensively nitro charged:
Shandera
@spell tag/life orb (if you don't want recoil damage)
modest
252 sp attack 216 speed 48 defense- (after a nitro boost, Shandera can outspeed (almost) everything with 216 speed evs)
nitro charge
shadow ball
flamethrower
will o wisp/memento/energy ball/psychic
Shandera "Liquid Flame"
@Leftovers
Flash Fire
Calm
252 sp attck 216 spd 48 sp def
nitro charge
acid armor
flamethrower
shadow ball
'Nuff said.
the idea is to switch in on a fire attak, and gain the flash fire boost, then when the opponent switches out, use acid armor, and with shandera's base 90 defense stat boosted by acid armor, it becomes really hard to kill. This usually gives you enough time to get at least one nitro charge in, which puts Shandera's speed at 375, you then proceed to burn the opponent with STAB flamethrower, with shadow ball mixed in for good measure.
Or, more offensively nitro charged:
Shandera
@spell tag/life orb (if you don't want recoil damage)
modest
252 sp attack 216 speed 48 defense- (after a nitro boost, Shandera can outspeed (almost) everything with 216 speed evs)
nitro charge
shadow ball
flamethrower
will o wisp/memento/energy ball/psychic
Acid Armor's "Meh" on Shandera, especially when it's taking so many turns to set up Speed and Defense with "meh" damage output.
I said nothing about changing the metagame or Gen 4 teams. Where is this tangent coming from? My only point was that "I have no problems with him" is an invalid argument unless you can back it up with an explanation of why and how others can adapt similarly.
You have to realize though, that those are just examples. Shandera is capable of checking a vast majority of the metagame and the worst thing about it is that you're not even allowed to switch to your counters. Prime defensive targets can adapt with Shed Shell, like Nattorei, Forretress, and Brozong, but sweepers Pokemon that can't afford to run Shed Shell can't do anything about him without severely compromising their effectiveness.
While your strategy appears solid and you look like you know what you're doing, I also have to call attention to the fact that a lot of your team is assumption-based, such as what the Shandera set will be, when they switch-in, and having a perfect response for the scenarios you have outlined.
Honestly, Shandera players aren't bots programmed to function the way you want; you might see a CM set every so often, maybe a Lum Berry to deal reliably cover Pokemon that enjoy spamming status...point is, even your ultra-specialized team doesn't stop him from trapping and killing, something you openly admitted to, and that's why he's such a huge deal to begin with.
I mean, Scizor with Bullet Punch really would be a problem if the stuff he checked with it weren't allowed to switch out, he were even stronger, and had better coverage, but we haven't had to deal with any of that the way we have to deal with Shandera. 4th gen precedents just don't work here.
No. if your gonna setup shanderra (which is hard enough as is) you do calm mind + sub.
For starters, the Calm Mind set is something of a waste of Shandera's abilities, IMO. It only truly functions against stall teams that can't outspeed it (and quickstall often has a wildcard Scarfer to absorb Trick).
Specs/Scarf is the way to go, and Shandera has its issues in doing so that make it manageable, IMO.
For starters, Shandera's immunities are very rarely choiced, and very commonly paired with attacks that can severely wound it. Normal types typically find themselves carrying Crunch / Earthquake to deal with ghosts and steels (think Snorlax), and can, no should open with them to scout switch-ins. The same is true of fighting-types, who can toss out a quick Stone Edge (and are almost never choiced, especially in this metagame).
Shandera's defenses may be decent, but it does have various weaknesses to common types (think Water, Ground, Rock) and average speed at best, which makes it prone to being revenged as well. Even with a Scarf, it can only manage to speed-tie with Timid Shaymin-S. Considering the prevalence of ScarfChomp, RP Landlos, DDOnono, etc, it becomes apparent that Shandera's revenge is limited to pokemon it can OHKO that have not boosted their speed at all.
Finally, the notion of the necessity of being able to counter every threat needed to go since Gen IV rolled around. If your goal is to sweep with, say, Butterfly Dance Urugamosu, then you don't have to worry about Shandera revenging one of your pokemon. As has been noted before, revenging implies that the trapped pokemon has already done its job and so you are that much closer to sweeping with your Urgamoth. Your MixMence blasted a full-health Milotic with Draco Meteor before going down to HP Ice? Cool, now there is nothing in the way of Fire Dance. Kerudio managed to surprise Gyarados with a Specs HP Electric to the face? Again, point for you.
What the (potential) banning of Shandera really depends on, IMO, is whether or not people are still clinging to the "counter everything" mindset, or if they've moved on to the "carry out your own strategy at all costs" school of thought.
Specs/Scarf is the way to go, and Shandera has its issues in doing so that make it manageable, IMO.
For starters, Shandera's immunities are very rarely choiced, and very commonly paired with attacks that can severely wound it. Normal types typically find themselves carrying Crunch / Earthquake to deal with ghosts and steels (think Snorlax), and can, no should open with them to scout switch-ins. The same is true of fighting-types, who can toss out a quick Stone Edge (and are almost never choiced, especially in this metagame).
Shandera's defenses may be decent, but it does have various weaknesses to common types (think Water, Ground, Rock) and average speed at best, which makes it prone to being revenged as well. Even with a Scarf, it can only manage to speed-tie with Timid Shaymin-S. Considering the prevalence of ScarfChomp, RP Landlos, DDOnono, etc, it becomes apparent that Shandera's revenge is limited to pokemon it can OHKO that have not boosted their speed at all.
Finally, the notion of the necessity of being able to counter every threat needed to go since Gen IV rolled around. If your goal is to sweep with, say, Butterfly Dance Urugamosu, then you don't have to worry about Shandera revenging one of your pokemon. As has been noted before, revenging implies that the trapped pokemon has already done its job and so you are that much closer to sweeping with your Urgamoth. Your MixMence blasted a full-health Milotic with Draco Meteor before going down to HP Ice? Cool, now there is nothing in the way of Fire Dance. Kerudio managed to surprise Gyarados with a Specs HP Electric to the face? Again, point for you.
What the (potential) banning of Shandera really depends on, IMO, is whether or not people are still clinging to the "counter everything" mindset, or if they've moved on to the "carry out your own strategy at all costs" school of thought.
You can't switch to a counter against Dugtrio, either, but we don't ban Arena Trap. And let's not forget Magnet Pull and Pursuit, which together put dozens of Pokemon in danger of being trapped and killed at any time.
Assuming sets and predicting the foe's usage is basic to countering ANY Pokemon.
Most things frail enough to be checked by Scizor's Bullet Punch are going to be in similar danger from Scizor's Pursuit; as such, they can't easily switch to a counter either.
I dunno, I think that set's actually pretty good. Shandy already has one of the highest SpAtk stats in OU, and benefits more from getting its speed boosted enough to sweep with that firepower.
--------
All the rain teams in Gen V have been throwing a real wrench in Shandera's success; even Shadow Tag does no good against water sweepers. It's come to the point where I'm considering taking it off my team because I just don't get as much use out of it as I would a weather counter. Though saying that, it could be quite effective on a sun team, using Flash Fire to absorb boosted fire attacks aimed at your Grass-types and firing back with sun-boosted FF-boosted 140 SpAtk Flamethrower.
Hey, everyone. Let me start by saying that I'm not very skilled in strategizing move sets for Pokemon (or spelling, apparently). I figure I'd post my original thoughts for a Shandera of my own here in hopes it would be critiqued. Anywho, here's what I got:
Ability: Flame Body (?)
Nature: Bold
EVs: 252 HP / 72 Defense / 184 Sp. Defense
Held Item: Leftovers
Moveset:
- Purgatory
- Evil Eye
- Minimize
- Pain Split
The point is to burn/deal damage right off the bat with Purgatory. Then, while they burn up, I increase evasivness with Minimize, getting more difficult to hit. Once evasivness is maxed, I simply use Evil Eye (or Purgatory, if I must). If it's HP gets too low, I just Pain Split here and there.
I understand its probably nowhere near a good strategy, but a very similar set worked well with my Dusknoir so, I figure it might do well here. Let me know what you think.
Ability: Flame Body (?)
Nature: Bold
EVs: 252 HP / 72 Defense / 184 Sp. Defense
Held Item: Leftovers
Moveset:
- Purgatory
- Evil Eye
- Minimize
- Pain Split
The point is to burn/deal damage right off the bat with Purgatory. Then, while they burn up, I increase evasivness with Minimize, getting more difficult to hit. Once evasivness is maxed, I simply use Evil Eye (or Purgatory, if I must). If it's HP gets too low, I just Pain Split here and there.
I understand its probably nowhere near a good strategy, but a very similar set worked well with my Dusknoir so, I figure it might do well here. Let me know what you think.
I feel that Scarf Shandera and Sub CM Shandera are... different pokes.
Scarf Shandera exists to support. It doesn't need anything else.
CM needs "simple support" to work.
I, for example, used both Scarf and Sub CM Shandera on different teams.
With the CM one i have nothing more than 3 fire weaknesses, but they're all fast (except for Lucario who has Extremespeed anyway). This means Scarf fire moves are quite commonly used against my team. Chance for Shandera to set up.
Lucario is another one: though it supports against Scarf Ditto (who needs to use Close Combat to take my Luke out. Shandera is immune so...).
And then i have DD Dragonite. This means Scarf Ice move = Shandera again.
The ironic thing is that opposing Shandera can screw this strategy lol
Just a example: i could make a team that's fast and often oblige the enemy to resort on Scarf moves that Shandera can come in and set up to take at least 2 pokes out.
On the other hand, the Scarf Shandera i used on another team was completely different: it existed merely to support and take undesirable pokes out to open space for DD Feraligatr and/or Snorlax to sweep.
It's the same poke, with 2 completely different purposes. No set outclasses the other one. It just depends on the team.
My thoughts.
Scarf Shandera exists to support. It doesn't need anything else.
CM needs "simple support" to work.
I, for example, used both Scarf and Sub CM Shandera on different teams.
With the CM one i have nothing more than 3 fire weaknesses, but they're all fast (except for Lucario who has Extremespeed anyway). This means Scarf fire moves are quite commonly used against my team. Chance for Shandera to set up.
Lucario is another one: though it supports against Scarf Ditto (who needs to use Close Combat to take my Luke out. Shandera is immune so...).
And then i have DD Dragonite. This means Scarf Ice move = Shandera again.
The ironic thing is that opposing Shandera can screw this strategy lol
Just a example: i could make a team that's fast and often oblige the enemy to resort on Scarf moves that Shandera can come in and set up to take at least 2 pokes out.
On the other hand, the Scarf Shandera i used on another team was completely different: it existed merely to support and take undesirable pokes out to open space for DD Feraligatr and/or Snorlax to sweep.
It's the same poke, with 2 completely different purposes. No set outclasses the other one. It just depends on the team.
My thoughts.
Just fought a GOOD Shadow Tag Shanderaa. We have to ban this thing into the ground! O_O
I had my Moroberu out (mushroom pig) and he uses spore and Shanderaa comes in! Well....I knew a grass and a fire move. I was screwed because I couldn't hurt it that much. All I could do was cower behind my substitute. And once it woke up it put down a sub and calm minded up 6 times. I couldnt do anything! Not even spore because of the sub! It's leftovers kept me from doing any large damage to it. And once it was set up it just swept me. Oh yeah it held that speed berry and became super fast after a few subs. So not cool.
Prior to my opponent sending out Shandy, he eliminated my Zororak, the only thing I had that could kill it. Even then whats Dark Pulse gonna do to a Shandy with +6 special D? I really don't want to be forced to pack sucker punch or aqua jet JUST for this ONE poke. EVEN then, it was still behind the sub after it was all set up. I would need at least 2 aqua jetters or 2 sucker punchers to take care of it.
The only way I have easily taken down a Shanderaa WITHOUT losing a poke was with my Zoroark. Its disguised as my Moroberu to draw in Psychic attacks, but when my opponent saw it, they thought it was the perfect chance to set up...heh heh..sucker. I dark pulsed his shanderaa back to the hell from which it came! Didn't even see it coming.
Bottom line if you have a tank or wall or something that only deals resisted hits to a calm mind Shanderaa, ur screwed. It WILL use that oppurtunity to set up and there absolutely nothing u can do.
I saw the goth tower do the same strategy, but it was actually fair because its slow and it's stats arent already impressively high. My Gastrodon survived it's attacks after it was +6.
I had my Moroberu out (mushroom pig) and he uses spore and Shanderaa comes in! Well....I knew a grass and a fire move. I was screwed because I couldn't hurt it that much. All I could do was cower behind my substitute. And once it woke up it put down a sub and calm minded up 6 times. I couldnt do anything! Not even spore because of the sub! It's leftovers kept me from doing any large damage to it. And once it was set up it just swept me. Oh yeah it held that speed berry and became super fast after a few subs. So not cool.
Prior to my opponent sending out Shandy, he eliminated my Zororak, the only thing I had that could kill it. Even then whats Dark Pulse gonna do to a Shandy with +6 special D? I really don't want to be forced to pack sucker punch or aqua jet JUST for this ONE poke. EVEN then, it was still behind the sub after it was all set up. I would need at least 2 aqua jetters or 2 sucker punchers to take care of it.
The only way I have easily taken down a Shanderaa WITHOUT losing a poke was with my Zoroark. Its disguised as my Moroberu to draw in Psychic attacks, but when my opponent saw it, they thought it was the perfect chance to set up...heh heh..sucker. I dark pulsed his shanderaa back to the hell from which it came! Didn't even see it coming.
Bottom line if you have a tank or wall or something that only deals resisted hits to a calm mind Shanderaa, ur screwed. It WILL use that oppurtunity to set up and there absolutely nothing u can do.
I saw the goth tower do the same strategy, but it was actually fair because its slow and it's stats arent already impressively high. My Gastrodon survived it's attacks after it was +6.
No offense, but Shandera likely isn't the only pokemon you have issues with if you carry only a single pokemon faster than base 80 speed. Even ScarfRotom would have helped you out by Tricking a Scarf.
Another thing to note is that you can now see your opponents' team before battling them, which means you know they have Shandera. From the start, you should think of a way to execute your strategy no matter which pokemon the chandelier manages to pick off.
Another thing to note is that you can now see your opponents' team before battling them, which means you know they have Shandera. From the start, you should think of a way to execute your strategy no matter which pokemon the chandelier manages to pick off.
Good advice, but if he's playing on PO, you only see the opposing team before battle in the wifi ladder. On the DW ladder it's still hidden.
Of course, if you're playing on the DW ladder, ST Shandera is #1 in rankings, so sending out something which is trap+setup fodder is just a bad idea if you haven't scouted the team out and either killed shandera or discovered the foe doesn't have one.
With 65 base speed and no way to raise it that's not the really strategy the goth tower should be using. It should be investing in its defenses and acting like an inferior Wobbuffet: trap something that won't be able to hurt it much, and then tickle/fake tears/charm the foe, and switch into a setup sweeper. Could possibly use embargo or wonder room too, to prevent item use.
Actually, I agree with the above statement but I'm tired of guys in PO going all, "olol ur the bitch with a shitload of posts in the thread /ragequit". Lrn2GenV. Shandera may have no counters due to Shadow Tag, but people who think it's broken seriously need to start flowing with the new metagame. Weather teams are far more dangerous, as virtually any switch in will take a shitton of damage. Any poke with base 80 and +1 speed means bad news for Shandera, since HP fighting means they will always lose the 'speed tie' by one point. Set up Shandera is wrecked by crits, multi hits, and stuff (like any other Calm Minder), and besides is way too fragile to set up against most of the most used pokes in this gen.
http://91.121.107.186/Dream World/index.html
Actually, according to this usage list, the most 10 used pokes don't mind Shandera too much.
http://91.121.107.186/Dream World/index.html
Actually, according to this usage list, the most 10 used pokes don't mind Shandera too much.