Charizard

[charhazzard]

A STAB, Sun boosted Fire Blast has 135 Base Power when it's resisted. An SE Hidden Power will only have 140 Base Power. That doesn't really make a significant enough difference to warrant its use for those Pokemon. You really only need moves that will hit things that are immune to Fire or dual resist it like Heatran and Kingdra.

On another note, it's highly unlikely that you'll be able to use Dragon Pulse with Solar Power, as Charizard can only get it from a Gen 4 TM or as an Egg Move and all of the event DW Pokemon that have been released so far are all male with only level up moves.

The "sun" isn't always going to be up so my reasons for hp ground are still valid.

As far as Dw abilities in general, they are breedable for a reason ..So somewhere down the line we will see a female version of Pokemon we like.

 

[JTwinkies]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned this use of Solar Power Charizard yet.

With rapid spin support, (something that is nearly necessary to provide more switch ins for Ninetales as well as other teammates) he can make HUGE dents in opposing teams. He's ridiculously powerful.

A set of:

Charizard@Expert Belt (Solar Power obviously)
Timid; 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Speed

Fire Blast / Flamethrower
Solar Beam
Air Slash
Focus Blast / Dragon Pulse / HP Ice / HP Ground

His adequate movepool provides great coverage, and he really should be running Solar Beam, seeing as his ability is meant to abuse sun anyways. It will help him combat bulky waters and rock/ground types alike. Fire Blast will make HUGE holes in opposing Pokemon, boosted by STAB, Solar Power, and Sunny Day. Air Slash provides great neutral coverage, and it's resistances are helped by its other attacks. Finally, Focus Blast / HP Ground are mainly to counter Heatran looking for a free switch, while Dragon Pulse / HP Ice can be used against Dragons.

Expert Belt is used because many people expect a Charizard attacking straight off the bat to be choiced in some way, and the massive damage done can make people mistake him for Specs. His AMAZING coverage provided with the above moves grants him the ability to use Expert Belts utility to great extent. And Timid nature is to outspeed other Pokemon (while still maintaing high attack due to its numerous boosts).

One change that can be considered is running Choice Scarf. With rapid spin support, a scarfed Charizard becomes an excellent revenge killer with its moves. And many switches will still be hurt badly by Charizard, despite the move selected.

*Just in case people forgot, Roost is not learned by Charizard 5th gen because of the lack of the TM. So roosting off Solar Power damage is not an option this gen. Then again, why run Roost on such a frail Pokemon whose main job is to wreak havoc?

**I shall be submitting this Charizard set as soon as 5th gen strategies are accepted. :) .

 

[Banryu]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned this use of Solar Power Charizard yet.

FOOL! *smacks* Can ye not read?! >___0 That irritates me so much. I'm not gonna bother replying to the rest of this, as SolarPowerBeam / Focus Blast have been adequately discussed throughout this thread already.

nitro charge
dragon pulse
air slash
HP ground

No Fire Blast (or even Flamethrower) on this is utter foolishness. :\ Nitro Charge is a great idea, yes, and I'm not at all surprised to hear that this is fodder outside of sunlight. Nice idea, but you pretty much NEED special Fire STAB if you're running Solar Power.

 

[JTwinkies]

FOOL! *smacks* Can ye not read?! >___0 That irritates me so much. I'm not gonna bother replying to the rest of this, as SolarPowerBeam / Focus Blast have been adequately discussed throughout this thread already.

LOL. Can YOU not read? If you actually bothered to look into my post I SPECIFICALLY stated that Charizard would be using an EXPERT BELT. The majority of this thread had stated the potential of Choiced Charizard (Specs/Scarf), Bellyzard (not as noteworthy seeing as every generation introduces more priority in some way), and Nitro Charge.

And did I even highlight Solar Beam / Focus Blast? My post was about Expert Belt, not the moves he learns or the potential usage of the moves.

Moreover the fact that many people have been pointing out, "Solar Beam isn't as good as people think," and "Focus Blast has iffy accuracy," gives good reason to continue discussion. Because it's only been touched upon that Charizard should be used mid-late game. Why are you going to switch in Charizard with other weather abusers still running rampant? Why would you even think of switching in Charizard with stealth rocks out (in this case, switching in early game). It's only OBVIOUS that Charizard will be switched in once some counters are taken out (as the case with many other sweepers).

Moreover you seem to consistently praise Nitro Charge Charizard. Why waste a moveslot on a gimmicky move when with the extra speed Charizard STILL has many counters to it? With the overall frailty of Charizard, Extreme Speed users laugh in its face, and Aqua Jet users (who may or may not see a rise of use this generation) will completely demolish it. And still, there will always be those extremely bulky Pokemon you can't just take down. Honestly, with rapid spin support, a Choiced Charizard will function much better either as a hard hitter or as a revenge killer. Predicted fire moves (something expect off Charizard) just scream for a counter to be switched in, (bulky Pokemon; Heatran) and will force you to switch most of the time.

And I'm sorry, but do YOU know what irritates ME? The fact that you said, "Can ye not read?! >___0 That irritates me so much. I'm not gonna bother replying to the rest of this..." thus putting yourself in a position to be easily counter argued is what irritates me. I'm sorry, but that quote just oozes with your ability to neglect and disregard my post, in much of the way you claim mine did.

Learn to read and acknowledge posts, and actually provide helpful input rather than disregarding potential uses. *Edit* after all, isn't that what the point of discussion for the future is?

Good day, sir.

 

[Vaz]

The only real notable difference that will actually make it function well is that there will be less Stealth Rocks and perhaps having SOlar Power combined with Ninetales on a Choice Scarf set can allow it to switch in and hit hard with a Fire Attack. Nothing much else is left to say.

 

[ch00b]

Banryu, let's please not put others down in this thread. After all this is a community and we should all respect each other. This is a discussion therefore we should be free to express our opinions without being criticized, and even though focus blast + solar beam have already been discussed we may elaborate on it more thoroughly seeing as it has many pros and cons. And as he stated what you said contributes nothing to this thread and only puts YOU in a bad position. Nothing against you, but please learn to be more respectful on this forum. Putting up useless replies has nothing to do with this thread. And please learn to address other people of this forum with the respect they deserve, even if they make an idiotic posts. After all we all are learning, calling him straight out 'FOOL' is disrespectful and that really irritates me. Please do address him by his name.

Like JTwinkies said he did specifically conclude the fact that the Charizarad expert belt, which I found to work fantastically with solar power, props to you for that set JTwinkies, after all the focus blast/solar beam combo does provide exceptional coverage. And he is right focus blast is needed for Heatrans that try to take advantage, HP ground however will also work. Unfortunately Roost would not be viable for this set as Twinkies' mentioned, however I'd really like to see it have roost, ah well. Like he explained also nitro charge is a waste of a move slot which Charizard could be benefiting greatly from, nitro charge isn't needed seeing as Charizard doesn't have a lackluster speed stat like others who could use a nitro charge boost. Extremspeed will wreck havoc on Zard seeing as his defensive stats are very mediocre. After a few boosts with Roopushin I'm sure a mach punch is going to hurt quite a bit, techloom with mach punch could hurt it quite a bit as well considering spikes, tspikes, and stealth rock might be in play, if running life orb the same principle is there.

Again great set JTwiknies I look forward to seeing your set on smogon for generation 5!

 

[charhazzard]

Fitting charizard on a team with ninetales is a problem all in itself. Both are weak to rock and water so its hard to maintain synergy and keep the pressure advantage on your side.
Finding a rapid spinner to go along with them may be tricky to find aswell.

 

[JTwinkies]

Fitting charizard on a team with ninetales is a problem all in itself. Both are weak to rock and water so its hard to maintain synergy and keep the pressure advantage on your side.
Finding a rapid spinner to go along with them may be tricky to find aswell.

Sunny Day teams frequently carry grass types, who both take care of those counters to fire types. Also, rapid spinners can be found in water weak ones (normally water weak ones; Sunny Day removes water weakness) such as Claydol (whose Levitate is greatly appreciated) or in normal spinners such as Starmie or Forretress.

 

[Banryu]

/owned

0_______0 Yikes, sorry. I got a little miffed on reading 'no one has mentioned Solar Power yet,' and assumed that the rest of it was just redundant with what had been already stated... I now see that that is not the case, and I apologize. -____-' Yikers. I guess that's what I get...

In any case, I do agree that Expert Belt is an excellent option on Solar-Powered Charizard... I was forgetting how much Life Orb + Solar Power recoil would be racking up. :0 Nitro Charge may not be as effective as I thought it to be, however, I was thinking along the lines of the speed that 4th-Gen Bellyzard gets after a Salac Boost... It might still be vulnerable to ExSpeed (Aqua Jet isn't as problematic, assuming Sunlight to neutralize Water attacks :0), but it'll be outspeeding slower Scarfers too. I was just thinking that Nitro Charge would work well for a sweeper build, and Sub-Salac is another option (although Expert Belt is probably the preferable item, especially since a Speed boost can be obtained without needing to take up an item slot). Granted, it might not be necessary, but it can't hurt to avoid getting outsped by the likes of Specs Jolteon and so forth. :0 ...right, maybe it can hurt not to run Nitro Charge. Anyway...

Coverage-wise, I'm seeing a lot of discrepancies in this thread... I think this is the best way to go on Zard:
- Fire STAB
- Dragon Pulse / Air Slash
- HP Ground / Focus Blast
- Solarbeam / HP Grass

Fire is duh, self-explanatory. I listed Dragon Pulse second because I happen to think that the neutral coverage it affords, as well as the supereffective hit on Dragons is vital. Air Slash could theoretically also be used here, but I think hitting the Dragons that resist Fire/Grass is more than worthwhile. :0 I suppose it would depend on how much damage they all take from Air Slash VS. Dragon Pulse. Third slot is for Heatran: Focus Blast VS. HP Ground is the age-old power VS reliability argument, and whichever you decide on determines the fourth slot, HP Grass or Solarbeam, depending on whether you already have a HP.

For sets with only 3 special-attacking moves, I think Fire-Dragon-Ground/Fighting is the way to go. Not having Grass might seem weird, but if you exclude Dragon or Fighting/Ground, then you're missing out on hitting either Heatran or most Dragons.

Does anyone see the logic behind the whole coverage thing? :0 Honestly, I think Air Slash is one of the last things you want on him, unless you specifically need to beat Roopushin and the like, and you don't care about only hitting Dragons neutrally.

 

[JTwinkies]

I think most people use Air Slash because Charizard in it's near inevitable tier (inevitable considering the Pokemon used now) is still going to be UU/NU. There are very few dragons there, and the only ones I really think will drop down that low will be Altaria/Crimgan.

However I do agree, Dragon Pulse does seem like a more viable move in the upper tiers. Air Slash is mainly for STAB.

 

[Banryu]

I think most people use Air Slash because Charizard in it's near inevitable tier (inevitable considering the Pokemon used now) is still going to be UU/NU. There are very few dragons there, and the only ones I really think will drop down that low will be Altaria/Crimgan.

However I do agree, Dragon Pulse does seem like a more viable move in the upper tiers. Air Slash is mainly for STAB.

Understandable, but that's not part of this discussion as of yet... I agree that, hypothetically speaking, Air Slash would be the way to go in the lower tiers, but right now Charizard is still up there with everyone else.
(although since we're discussing it... I'm worried that Flygon will be making the drop as well this time around. D: )
/hypocrite

Sorry again for the flamefest, BTW. ;___;

 

[JTwinkies]

Understandable, but that's not part of this discussion as of yet... I agree that, hypothetically speaking, Air Slash would be the way to go in the lower tiers, but right now Charizard is still up there with everyone else.
(although since we're discussing it... I'm worried that Flygon will be making the drop as well this time around. D: )
/hypocrite

Sorry again for the flamefest, BTW. ;___;

Lol, it's all good. Yeah I understand where you were coming from. But it's alright.

Anyways, then at this point I'd say Dragon Pulse. That would complete his type coverage.

 

[charhazzard]

Sunny Day teams frequently carry grass types, who both take care of those counters to fire types. Also, rapid spinners can be found in water weak ones (normally water weak ones; Sunny Day removes water weakness) such as Claydol (whose Levitate is greatly appreciated) or in normal spinners such as Starmie or Forretress.

LOL well when the sun goes down and the rain is up its gonna be hella difficult... but yeah those could get some very good use otherwise.

 

[JTwinkies]

LOL well when the sun goes down and the rain is up its gonna be hella difficult... but yeah those could get some very good use otherwise.

Mhm. Just gotta see how these things play out.

 

[Flareon]

Dragon dance is still the best statup move he has, Nitro charge doesn't look to be much use. But claw sharpen might be effective for accuracy.

Solar power is great, but it does cut down his survivability a lot.

EDIT: fixed autocorrect typos

 

[Banryu]

Dragon dance is still the best statup move he has, Nitro charge doesn't look to be much use. But claw sharpen might be effective for accuracy.

Solar power is great, but it does cut down his survivability a lot.

EDIT: fixed autocorrect typos

Correction: Belly Drum is the best setup move he has.

As far as speed boosting on Solar Power sets, Nitro Charge will usually be the way to go, since you're still landing at least a small hit on something and Solarzard doesn't really benefit from Nitro Charge's Attack boost. :0 On physical Zard sets though, you're right, Dragon Dance is pretty good... in fact, I don't know why you'd use Claw Sharpen over DD, CS is pretty useless by comparison.

 

[CTNC]

Dragon dance is still the best statup move he has, Nitro charge doesn't look to be much use. But claw sharpen might be effective for accuracy.

Solar power is great, but it does cut down his survivability a lot.

EDIT: fixed autocorrect typos

LIGHTBULB! IT BURNS MY EYES! With +Atk +SpA and +Spe Charizard could do a Mixed Dragon Dance Sweep (You may want to avoid Life Orb...)

Edit: Are there any Female Dreamworld Charizards?

 

[JTwinkies]

LIGHTBULB! IT BURNS MY EYES! With +Atk +SpA and +Spe Charizard could do a Mixed Dragon Dance Sweep (You may want to avoid Life Orb...)

Edit: Are there any Female Dreamworld Charizards?

Actually, a mixed Dragon Dance set might not be a bad idea. Charizard's physical movepool is pretty nice, coupled with those extra boosts, that's pretty good.

Solar power is great, but it does cut down his survivability a lot.

Not like he had much to begin with. LOL.

Correction: Belly Drum is the best setup move he has.

As far as speed boosting on Solar Power sets, Nitro Charge will usually be the way to go, since you're still landing at least a small hit on something and Solarzard doesn't really benefit from Nitro Charge's Attack boost. :0 On physical Zard sets though, you're right, Dragon Dance is pretty good... in fact, I don't know why you'd use Claw Sharpen over DD, CS is pretty useless by comparison.

Well, what damage would a Nitro Charge be doing with such mediocre Attack and a low BP move? And at least Dragon Dance can't be blocked by Flash Fire users (Heatran). His bulk isn't enough to use a set up move without forcing a switch, so Dragon Dance would be a safer choice. Plus running a Physical move to go mixed is always nice.

 

[Banryu]

Unfortunately, I have to disagree that a mixed Solar Power Charizard would be very good. :0 JTwinkies, I see your point about Dragon Dance not being blocked by Flash Fire users... I actually had that same thought myself, though I guess I forgot to mention it.

However, you have to remember that Solar Power takes a whopping 1/8th HP every turn sunlight is out, regardless of whether you're using a Special attack (as such, it might be better not to use a boosting move at all, now that I think about it), so you pretty much want every turn you can use to keep wrecking stuff while sunlight is still out. If anything, Roost should be considered for a non-attacking move, as absurd as that sounds with Charizard's ridiculous frailty.

In regards to the mixed set, Charizard's Attack is pretty lackluster without significant investment... heck, Adamant, 252 Attack, +6 Bellyzard isn't even OHKO'ing bulky Quagsire and Sandslash in NU. DD Charizard itself already suffers from a lack of physical power, splitting its offensive EVs and going mixed really doesn't seem practical to me. =___=

 

[JTwinkies]

Mmm, well I guess it all just depends on your use of Charizard. If you're using him late game the 1/8th HP every turn won't matter as much. If you're using him as a regular, then I guess it should be taken into account.

And a mixed set would only be to take advantage of a more diverse movepool (his movepool honestly is NOT that bad). But yeah, it would probably just function as a gimmick.

Charizard's main Solar Power use should be doing huge amounts of damage with that booster Special Attack. But mixed is still a decent gimmicky idea.

 

[sqwat500]

i see charizard this gen. as one of the highset UU pokemon, or an average-high BL pokemon. every team has a spinner anyway, so SR shouldnt be tht much of a problem. at full health, its very easy to bulldoze the other team, in the sun. charizard will most certianly NOT be in NU. some calcs:
Calcs Will be done with a 252 SpA Life Orb Solar Power Netrul Nature Fireblast In the Sun

252 Special Defense/252 HP Carefull Lugia-64.2% - 75.7%
252 Special Defense/252 HP Carefull Cresselia-67.8% - 80%
252 Special Defense/252 HP Carefull Deoxys-D-85.9% - 101%
252 Special Defense/252 HP Carefull Groundon-96.5% - 113.6%
252 Special Defense/252 HP Carefull T-tar-44.6% - 52.7%
252 Special Defense/252 HP Carefull Hippowdon-106.4% - 125.2%
252 Special Defense/252 HP Carefull Blissey-41.3% - 48.7%
252 Special Defense/252 HP Carefull +1 Chansey-33.4% - 39.3%

252 SpA Specs Solar Power Netrul Nature Fireblast In the Sun

252 Special Defense/252 HP Carefull Lugia-73.8% - 87.3%
252 Special Defense/252 HP Carefull Cresselia-78.6% - 92.8%
252 Special Defense/252 HP Carefull Deoxys-D-98.7% - 116.4%
252 Special Defense/252 HP Carefull Groundon-111.4% - 130.9%
252 Special Defense/252 HP Carefull T-tar-51.7% - 60.9%
252 Special Defense/252 HP Carefull Hippowdon-122.4% - 144.3%
252 Special Defense/252 HP Carefull Blissey-47.5% - 56%
252 Special Defense/252 HP Carefull +1 Chansey-38.5% - 45.3%

252 SpA Life Orb Solar Power +Nature Fireblast In the Sun

252 Special Defense/252 HP Carefull Lugia-70.2% - 82.9%
252 Special Defense/252 HP Carefull Cresselia-74.5% - 88.1%
252 Special Defense/252 HP Carefull Deoxys-D-93.8% - 110.5%
252 Special Defense/252 HP Carefull Groundon-105.4% - 124.3%
252 Special Defense/252 HP Carefull T-tar-49.3% - 58.2%
252 Special Defense/252 HP Carefull Hippowdon-117.1% - 137.9%
252 Special Defense/252 HP Carefull Blissey-45.1% - 53.1%
252 Special Defense/252 HP Carefull +1 Chansey-36.4% - 43%

252 SpA Specs Solar Power +Nature Fireblast In the Sun
252 Special Defense/252 HP Carefull Lugia-81.5% - 95.9%
252 Special Defense/252 HP Carefull Cresselia-86.5% - 102%
252 Special Defense/252 HP Carefull Deoxys-D-107.9% - 127.3%
252 Special Defense/252 HP Carefull Groundon-121.8% - 143.6%
252 Special Defense/252 HP Carefull T-tar-56.9% - 67.1%
252 Special Defense/252 HP Carefull Hippowdon-134.5% - 158.6%
252 Special Defense/252 HP Carefull Blissey-52.2% - 61.5%
252 Special Defense/252 HP Carefull +1 Chansey-42.2% - 49.9%

 

[Max_LKC]

i see charizard this gen. as one of the highset UU pokemon, or an average-high BL pokemon. every team has a spinner anyway, so SR shouldnt be tht much of a problem. at full health, its very easy to bulldoze the other team, in the sun. charizard will most certianly NOT be in NU. some calcs:
Calcs Will be done with a 252 SpA Life Orb Solar Power Netrul Nature Fireblast In the Sun


252 Special Defense/252 HP Carefull T-tar-44.6% - 52.7%
252 Special Defense/252 HP Carefull Hippowdon-106.4% - 125.2%

252 SpA Specs Solar Power Netrul Nature Fireblast In the Sun


252 Special Defense/252 HP Carefull T-tar-51.7% - 60.9%
252 Special Defense/252 HP Carefull Hippowdon-122.4% - 144.3%


252 SpA Life Orb Solar Power +Nature Fireblast In the Sun


252 Special Defense/252 HP Carefull T-tar-49.3% - 58.2%
252 Special Defense/252 HP Carefull Hippowdon-117.1% - 137.9%


252 SpA Specs Solar Power +Nature Fireblast In the Sun

252 Special Defense/252 HP Carefull T-tar-56.9% - 67.1%
252 Special Defense/252 HP Carefull Hippowdon-134.5% - 158.6%

When T-tar and hippowdon switch in there will be no sun, which means solar power and the sunny day boost of fire blast shouldn't be calculated
Edit: deleted some unnecessary quotes.

 

[sqwat500]

^yes, but imagine

Fodder1 Vs Fodder2
Fodder2 Switches To Tyranitar!
Sandstorm Is Brewing
Fodder1 Uses Fodder Attack

Tyranitar use Earthquake
Fodder1 Fainted
Fodder1 Switches To Droughtales
The Sunlight Is Strong
Tyranitar uses Earthquake
Ninetales Fainted

Ninetales Switch To Charizard
Charizard Recives Solar Power Boost!

 

[Max_LKC]

^yes, but imagine

Fodder1 Vs Fodder2
Fodder2 Switches To Tyranitar!
Sandstorm Is Brewing
Fodder1 Uses Fodder Attack

Tyranitar use Earthquake
Fodder1 Fainted
Fodder1 Switches To Droughtales
The Sunlight Is Strong
Tyranitar uses Earthquake
Ninetales Fainted

Ninetales Switch To Charizard
Charizard Recives Solar Power Boost!

why would you let your ninetails faint?
Ninetales switch out, charizard switches in
T-tar use EQ, it doesn't effect on solar zard

Your fireblast fails to OHKO and your focus blast might miss leading to a SE OHKO. If you use solar beam there might be another sand stream user(hippo) and does HP grass OHKO in the sun wifh LO?

 

[Kudan]

Tyranitar use Earthquake
Fodder1 Fainted
Fodder1 Switches To Droughtales
The Sunlight Is Strong
Tyranitar uses Earthquake
Ninetales Fainted

Ninetales Switch To Charizard
Charizard Recives Solar Power Boost!

It doesn't really make sense to sacrifice 2 pokemon just so that charizard can fire/focus blast ttar.