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Charizard
- Thread starter Zippo
- Start date
Although you're right here - this scenario is an awful one, someone earlier in the thread suggested something that could make it work. A Zard with Sunny Day can predict the switch-in of a weather user if its been seen before if it comes in on say Forretress. This lets it reset Sun after TTar or Hippo switches in and KO with Solarbeam if the TTar is offensive, Focus Blast if not, while Hippo dies to Fire Blast. Sadly support Politoed cannot be KOed in this manner. So not the best way to deal with other weather users, but about all he's got.
...I think you people are missing the point, Benlisted is right. :\ I think the point of the calcs was to show how impressive Zard's Special Attacks can be in sunlight; given that (and given Charizard's rather poor Attack in the first place, movepool is cool but not the issue), I don't see why you would even bother going mixed.
I also think Sunny Day on Solarzard for countering weather changers is a good idea... probably more useful than a speed-boosting move (or Roost, LOLz).
And for me, Solar SpecsZard is starting to look pretty good... coming in to smash the crap out of things once in a while beats staying in for a sweep that can't last past 8 turns, IMO.
I also think Sunny Day on Solarzard for countering weather changers is a good idea... probably more useful than a speed-boosting move (or Roost, LOLz).
And for me, Solar SpecsZard is starting to look pretty good... coming in to smash the crap out of things once in a while beats staying in for a sweep that can't last past 8 turns, IMO.
I think he may be somewhat outclassed as a Scarfer by Typhlosion, who has access to the 100% accurate Eruption which is mildly less powerful than SolarZard's FB. However it doesn't have the crippling 50% SR weakness, and Solar Power depleting its health, allowing it o pull off impressive sweeps if its counters are eliminated. Moreover, It trades the Ground immunity for a Fire one, very useful when Grass types will commonly be used on a Sun team.
In terms of Specs though I think you may be right. As long as SR is kept off this thing has incredible damage potential.
Bellyzard is as (un)viable as ever, but gains little from Sun due to it relying on a lot of non-fire attacks and lacking Solar Power.
I have been using solar power Charizard, and he is awesome. Obviously stealth rocks should be taken out first before using him. The good thing is, there is less stealth rocks distributed this time around, and there is a slight decrease in stealth rocks usage (but there still is a lot). Hopefully, he will be in OU this time around. I mean like people are using Ulgamoth A LOT, with the same 4x weakness to stealth rocks as well, although Charziard does need the sun. Charizard is really good this time around.
Ive been usng SpecsZrad on PO and it hits like a truck. i remember KOing MOltres, salamence and Rotom-W at full health, and most bulky waters fell to a 2HKO. I use choice specs because i once tested life orb but charizard died too quickly because of that. Trust me, charizard is the brute force in sunny day teams. The only problem, as many mentioned, is that its hard to prevent stelath rocks when u are using sunny day teams
BTW~IM new here
BTW~IM new here
Okay... so I've been researching Charizard's performance over all the generations, and I think I'm starting to realize why it's maybe not so good...
The thing you have to realize, any naysayers of Charizard, is that Charizard was BL for Generations 1-3. It was certainly never a bad Pokemon before, being too good for UU and stuff... Stealth Rocks really ruined Charizard's reputation, I think. However, I don't think they will be the reason that Charizard isn't OU or even BL this generation... just some observations and stuff, I don't know how really relevant it is.
Anyway, here are my thoughts on why Charizard fell and why it will stay fallen (discouting the obvious Stealth Rock):
SpecsZard and Nitro Charge are what my money's on for OU-related sets.
The thing you have to realize, any naysayers of Charizard, is that Charizard was BL for Generations 1-3. It was certainly never a bad Pokemon before, being too good for UU and stuff... Stealth Rocks really ruined Charizard's reputation, I think. However, I don't think they will be the reason that Charizard isn't OU or even BL this generation... just some observations and stuff, I don't know how really relevant it is.
Anyway, here are my thoughts on why Charizard fell and why it will stay fallen (discouting the obvious Stealth Rock):
- Introduction of Choice Scarf - Made even +1 Speed Bellyzard too easy to revenge. Sunnyzard wasn't terrible, and didn't need to rely on lowering its HP, but it largely suffers from the same problem.
- drastic popularity increase of priority - players who were introduced to competetive Pokemon in 4th Gen, like I was, might not entirely realize it, but priority attacks were hardly ever used prior to 4th Gen. Part of the reason for this is because most of the priority moves we're now familar with were introduced in the 4th Generation, (read: everything but Quick Attack/Mach Punch/Extremespeed), but also because many Pokemon who got them also recieved tools to better abuse them. Choice Band, rise in frequency of boosting moves like Swords Dance, and abilities like Technician further helped to raise the popularity of priority. And in 5th Gen, it's more popular than it's ever been. (right?)
- Power creep - the 4th generation also marks the first time a non-legendary Pokemon has ever been banned. Returning contender Salamence even joined brother Garchomp in the Uber leagues for a time. Now, when it's highly likely that these two will fit solidly into OU, due to many other rising threats-- well, you all know what power creep is. :0
SpecsZard and Nitro Charge are what my money's on for OU-related sets.
If charizard had better defenses and didn't have that crippling rock weakness:
Nitro Charge
Dragon Tail
Rest
Sleep Talk
A variant of speed shuffling.
Nitro Charge deals some damage and raises speed when picked.
Dragon Tail phazes with normal priority when chosen by Sleep Talk.
I thought of this then checked to see which Pokemon learned the move combo.
Charizard was the only one aside from Mew/Smeargle.
It won't be any good at it though, esp. not in the higher tiers.
Nitro Charge
Dragon Tail
Rest
Sleep Talk
A variant of speed shuffling.
Nitro Charge deals some damage and raises speed when picked.
Dragon Tail phazes with normal priority when chosen by Sleep Talk.
I thought of this then checked to see which Pokemon learned the move combo.
Charizard was the only one aside from Mew/Smeargle.
It won't be any good at it though, esp. not in the higher tiers.
....uh.... why mention it, then? :\
I already said that in the post.
Or are are you only capable of reading a single sentence and posting a useless response? ;)
At this point, everyone is brainstorming hypothetical sets of varying effectiveness.
So...uh...what's the point of your post, then?
SpecsZard in the sun with Solar Power running STAB Fire Blast. I don't care what negative drawbacks you say he has, that's literally like bringing the Death Star to a knife fight.
Perhaps we are thinking about zard in the wrong way. Even without specs, solar power zard still hits like a truck in the sun. It also boasts a useful immunity and several resistances that are relevant at the moment, such as fire, grass, fighting, and steel. Perhaps a rest-talk sun set would be in order. I have no idea how to stat it, but the set would probably look like this:
Sleepyzard w/ Wise Glasses/Leftovers
Flamethrower/Fireblast
Solarbeam/HP of choice/Nitro Charge/Focus Blast
Rest
Sleep Talk
There are some other options for solarbeam's spot that have been discussed at length. Solarbeam is an interesting option, however, in that it cannot be chosen by sleep talk (as far as I know). While this does reduce your chances of getting an attacking move, it increases your chances of hitting your rampantly powerful fire move while zard is sleeping. Rest heals off the damage from solar power, and gives zard much more use even when SR is on the field. You can bring him in, rest, and then sleep talk into a deadly attack if you have time. If not, you have scouted their zard counter and can now withdraw zard at full health, ready to come back in and sleep talk later.
You can of course replace solarbeam with something more immediately useful. Nitro charge is not much of an option, but its speed boost threatens to break this set if they dont have a rock solid fire resist. The various hidden powers can snipe particular threats. I do not know if zard has a defensive boosting option. If it did, that could also be an interesting use on this set. Focus blast has decent neutral coverage with fire moves and can hit rock types hard, but its horribly unreliable.
As for EVs...im not sure. You would want to put a lot of investment in SPA and probably run modest. From there its a toss up between speed and bulk. There are others better at crunching these sort of numbers than I....let them figure it out ^_^.
It was just a thought. I suspect this set has real potential, but it will depend on how much coverage we can get from that second slot.
Sleepyzard w/ Wise Glasses/Leftovers
Flamethrower/Fireblast
Solarbeam/HP of choice/Nitro Charge/Focus Blast
Rest
Sleep Talk
There are some other options for solarbeam's spot that have been discussed at length. Solarbeam is an interesting option, however, in that it cannot be chosen by sleep talk (as far as I know). While this does reduce your chances of getting an attacking move, it increases your chances of hitting your rampantly powerful fire move while zard is sleeping. Rest heals off the damage from solar power, and gives zard much more use even when SR is on the field. You can bring him in, rest, and then sleep talk into a deadly attack if you have time. If not, you have scouted their zard counter and can now withdraw zard at full health, ready to come back in and sleep talk later.
You can of course replace solarbeam with something more immediately useful. Nitro charge is not much of an option, but its speed boost threatens to break this set if they dont have a rock solid fire resist. The various hidden powers can snipe particular threats. I do not know if zard has a defensive boosting option. If it did, that could also be an interesting use on this set. Focus blast has decent neutral coverage with fire moves and can hit rock types hard, but its horribly unreliable.
As for EVs...im not sure. You would want to put a lot of investment in SPA and probably run modest. From there its a toss up between speed and bulk. There are others better at crunching these sort of numbers than I....let them figure it out ^_^.
It was just a thought. I suspect this set has real potential, but it will depend on how much coverage we can get from that second slot.
Other than the fact that Charizard doesn't have Sleep Talk with Solar Power.
what i hate from zard in this meta is not his SR weak.
its his 100 speed. 100 while still high is nearly quite mediocre in this meta.
Basicaly things like rando and chomp etc exist.
power wise outside Sun hes not that awesome seeing how fragile ninetales is and how usual a tales with solarbeam..... yeah.
With all this saying SR is the whole reason zard is not used much is basicaly stupid
its his 100 speed. 100 while still high is nearly quite mediocre in this meta.
Basicaly things like rando and chomp etc exist.
power wise outside Sun hes not that awesome seeing how fragile ninetales is and how usual a tales with solarbeam..... yeah.
With all this saying SR is the whole reason zard is not used much is basicaly stupid
This, simply put, is a really bad idea. Anything with a fast rock move or Heatran for example comes in and you're screwed. Not to mention you forfeit coverage and power for Rest of all things - which you will never be waking up from given Zard's frailty. Also, like the above poster said, it is impossible.
Imo I would use Zard only in a Scarf role on a Sun team. His immense power lends him to this well, however spin support is of course essential. Due to him only being able to switch in once as Solar Power+SR adds up though, I tend to lean towards other options that still work if all goes ill, even with less power/coverage. Namely, Typhlosion is my scarfed Fire of choice as it has some limited survivability.
Your general point is correct, but the italicized part is just plain wrong. Wobby was banned in 3rd-gen.
As for Charizard... I can see it being a solid final sweeper, because almost nothing can take hits from it and live, but at the same time it suffers immensely from a variety of threats (SR, SS, rain) that ALL have to be removed before it can sweep. It could be great on a highly specialized team, but outside of that team, it just wouldn't cut it. It'll be BL at best, I predict.
Also: Solarbeam is unbelievably risky. If they have ANY (non-sun) weather setters at all, then it turns from a 120 BP move to instant suicide. Unless you take out all other weather setters before bringing in the Solarbeam user, it's simply too risky to be worth it.
Does Charizard really need SolarBeam?? Wth Choice specs, fire blast 2HKOes many bulky water types (I think starmie will be OHKOed). I think Fire blast/Dragon pulse/ Focus Blast/Air slash is pretty enough
LOL. The fact that I didn't bother to say anything else about that set is my statement in and of itself. I was trying to be polite or give you a chance to explain why that doesn't suck, but since you insist on being snappy, you force me to point out that... that sucks. Charizard is nowhere near bulky enough to be either a Rest-Talker OR a phazer... now I'll admit that the Nitro Charge + Dragon Tail beating other phazers is a neat trick, but against anything attacking it with supereffective moves, this is utter fodder, and against even strong neutral moves it's still far too risky to even bother with.
...or are you just trolling and that's a joke set? ...judging on your reaction, it doesn't much seem like it... :\ I think I would have preferred that. Too bad.
Ach, you're right, thanks for catching me on that. :0 Sorry. No, but... Wobb is different, he's a unique instance, a gimmick Poke like Ditto and Smeargle... (the difference being, of course, that his gimmick is much better.) I was thinking of more regular Pokemon, like.... everyone else, but... you're right. That particular aspect of the point doesn't stand under that logic. In any case, I'm glad you the my general idea.
Ooh. This actually restores my faith in Solarbeam a little bit.
Even when knowing what your opponent's team is - you have 2 possibilities. They have no weather poke and you're free to use Solarbeam, in which case, great. Or, just as likely, they do have another weather user. In which case, using it on a Fire like Zard is unviable since TTar and Politoed are good switchins for it, as I explained in the Solarbeam thread.
If they do have weather, then you'll have to take the weather setter out before you can safely use Solarbeam more than once. Which you'd be trying to predict to do so in any case seeing as the rest of your team relies on Sun too. The difference is you have one less move available. A good player can conserve their weather until they are one of 2 pokes left, making Solarbeam useless the whole battle.
Well, in Sun Fire Blast = 300 Power, i think. Halved this is 150, and a SE Solarbeam (not even including Solar Power) is much more powerful, so it does have some utility. FB is by no means weak, but when sweeping a Rain team out of Rain for instance, Solarbeam is vastly more efficient (especially given the presence of 4x resists like Kabutops and Kingdra. Admittedly this is unlikely, but it does get pretty good coverage with Fire.
Actually despite 4X resist, Charizad can possibly 2HKO kingdra with Fire blast under the sun (with choice specs)
with solar power, choice specs and maximized sp attack under the sun,
Fire blast vs ChestoRest Kingdra = 48.9% - 57.5%
Sub Dragon Dance Kingdra = 57.2% - 67.1%
252 hp /160 spdef Mono attacker Kingdra = 40.1% - 47.2%
vs 152hp/ 252 sp def careful Kabutops 48.2% - 56.5%
Swords dance Kabtops 81.7% - 96.2%
vs Utility Omaster 55.8% - 65.7%
Im not saying that Charizard should face those pokemon, but if charizard hit them on the switch (fire blast), they are likely to suffer a 2HKO
Obviously Charizard can also hit them with other options, such as focus blast and dragon pulse. Solaream does have its uses but all other weather inducers have to be removed first before using it at full potential. Nad also u will have to keep ninetales alive, which isnt really a bulky pokemon
with solar power, choice specs and maximized sp attack under the sun,
Fire blast vs ChestoRest Kingdra = 48.9% - 57.5%
Sub Dragon Dance Kingdra = 57.2% - 67.1%
252 hp /160 spdef Mono attacker Kingdra = 40.1% - 47.2%
vs 152hp/ 252 sp def careful Kabutops 48.2% - 56.5%
Swords dance Kabtops 81.7% - 96.2%
vs Utility Omaster 55.8% - 65.7%
Im not saying that Charizard should face those pokemon, but if charizard hit them on the switch (fire blast), they are likely to suffer a 2HKO
Obviously Charizard can also hit them with other options, such as focus blast and dragon pulse. Solaream does have its uses but all other weather inducers have to be removed first before using it at full potential. Nad also u will have to keep ninetales alive, which isnt really a bulky pokemon
zard sun sp blast has a bit lower power than ogre spout based on my calcs making its quite nice with specs.
The problem remains with his typing and omfg speed (garchomp and randorusu be damned... also terakion)
The problem with ulga compared to zard. Ulga BD is one of the best move in the game.
with bd and bulky spread ulga is very dangerous even outside sun. Zard homever lost lot of power outside sun
The problem remains with his typing and omfg speed (garchomp and randorusu be damned... also terakion)
The problem with ulga compared to zard. Ulga BD is one of the best move in the game.
with bd and bulky spread ulga is very dangerous even outside sun. Zard homever lost lot of power outside sun
Charizard typing is not really that bad actually....I know stealth rock kills it but i got 2 4X resist and as well as an important ground immunity.
Charizard's speed can be fixed using nitro charge...but that means it will lose one move coverage
Charizard's speed can be fixed using nitro charge...but that means it will lose one move coverage
