Chesnaught [QC 0/3]

#fuckbravebird

Overview
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  • Can check a surprising amount of threats in the metagame such as Garchomp, Excadrill, Tyranitar, and Aegislash.
  • Leech Seed and Spiky Shield softens up the opponent very well, allowing many offensive Pokemon to get KOs faster.
  • Has reliable recovery and a decent offensive presence.
  • Can set up Spikes and phase to support the team.
  • Despite a nice offensive movepool, it's Speed and HP let it down completely.
  • Huge amounts of weaknesses such as Fire- and Flying-type moves.
  • Very slow.

#########
name: Defensive (Leech Seed + Spiky Shield)
move 1: Spiky Shield
move 2: Leech Seed
move 3: Hammer Arm
move 4: Synthesis / Roar
ability: Bulletproof
item: Leftovers
evs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
nature: Impish

Moves
=====
  • Spiky Shield is a must. It is a useful scouting tool. It also damages many threats such as Mega Charizard X, Talonflame, and Genesect. Alongside Leech Seed, you will have plenty of chip damage to support the team.
  • Leech Seed is a great at dealing chip damage and getting out of tough situations when combined with Spiky Shield.
  • Hammer Arm deals heavy damage to threats weak to it such as Excadrill, Tyranitar and Ferrothorn. It also serves as Chesnaught's only STAB move.
  • Synthesis provides reliable recovery needed when Mega Venusaur is present. It also helps when Leech Seed and Leftovers recovery isn't enough to survive strong hits.
  • Roar is a useful option to force out sweepers such as SD Aegislash, Garchomp and Gengar without Sludge Wave.
Set Details
========
  • Spamming Leech Seed even on a risky predicted switch is a very useful tactic, except for when Grass-types are present. If you think that the opposing Pokemon will stay in, use Spiky Shield. The only exception to this is if they have a setup move, in which case you should either use Leech Seed or switch out. This is especially a great way to pressure VoltTurn cores such as Landorus-T and Rotom-W.
Usage Tips
========
  • Remember that Chesnaught has Bulletproof! It gives it a wide variety of switch in options such as Aegislash and Gengar without Sludge Wave
  • Chesnaught isn't meant to be used as a wall, it's a tank designed to force switches and cause chip damage.
Team Options
==========
  • Tyranitar can take special attacks, cover Chesnaught's Fire-, Flying-, and Psychic weaknesses, and can either provide Pursuit support or use Stealth Rock to help Chesnaught deal more damage. Don't worry about Tyranitar reducing Chesnaugt's recovery; there is rarely a time when you'll encounter a Grass-type in Sandstorm.
  • Specially Defensive Heatran provides Stealth Rock and Toxic, as well as something to take special attacks.
  • Rotom-Wash heavily damages Flying- and Fire-types and has Will-O-Wisp to spread burn.
  • Scizor and Bisharp can use Pursuit to prevent Latias and Latios from using Defog.
name: Defensive (Spikes)
move 1: Spikes
move 2: Roar
move 3: Hammer Arm
move 4: Synthesis
ability: Bulletproof
item: Leftovers
evs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
nature: Impish

Moves
=====
  • Spikes lets you have some hazards which help with stall and offense alike.
  • Roar lets you have another option against setup sweepers such as Aegislash or Pinsir.
  • Hammer Arm is Chesnaught's most reliable STAB move.
  • Synthesis is a reliable recovery move that helps a ton on any defensive Pokemon.
Set Details
========
  • Can be used as a wall in emergencies, but there are better options.
  • Try setting up Spikes on a predicted switch. Forcing out a Pokemon such as Rotom-W or Aegislash is a good idea.
  • Any ideas for other things here?
Usage Tips
========
  • Bulletproof is nice to sponge up some special attacks (namely Shadow Ball from the likes of Aegislash and Gengar).
  • If you don't feel the need to set up Spikes and you know the opponent will switch, go for Roar to mess up momentum. You can do the same for Synthesis.
  • Any ideas for other things here?
Team Options
=========
  • Mega Tyranitar sponges most of Chesnaught's weaknesses, and also can abuse Chesnaught's Spikes and set up a Dragon Dance.
  • Specially defensive Heatran takes weaknesses and sets up Rocks and spreads Toxic.
  • Rotom-Wash can bring in Chesnaught in safely to set up Spikes, phase Pokemon out, or just wall in general.
  • Scizor / Bisharp can Pursuit Psychic- and Ghost-types. They can also discourage Latias/Latios trying to Defog the Spikes away.


Other Options
=========
  • Stone Edge
  • Seed Bomb
  • Assault Vest
  • Why is this even here.
Checks and Counters
==============

  • Crobat is the best counter. It can deal heavy damage to Chesnaught with Brave Bird clear Stealth Rock with Defog, Taunt to shut Chesnaught down and make it lose momentum, and U-turn to get even more momentum with a free switch in.
  • Talonflame can KO Chesnaught with a priority Brave Bird, U-turn out, and stall with a priority Roost.
  • Skarmory can set up hazards and deal heavy damage with Brave Bird.
  • Trevenant and Gourgeist are immune to Fighting-type moves and can easily take the rest of Chesnaught's moves.
  • King's Shield + Swords Dance Aegislash can set up on Chesnaught. However, Chesnaught can check any Aegislash without Hidden Power Ice.
  • Specially attacking Fire-types such as MegaZard Y force Chesnaught out with a STAB Fire Blast.
 
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In OO Seed Bomb, Swords Dance, Poison Jab, and maybe Spiky Shield could work. Seed Bomb is a STAB, Swords Dance is not unusable since Chesnaught has bulk, and Poison Jab can deal with Fairies and Grass types. idk about Spiky Shield but it sounds like it could come in handy occasionally.
 
Swamp-Rocket Is the Other Options section meant for a set, or is it for the whole analysis? If it's the ladder, where would I put different options for a specific set?
 
Swamp-Rocket Is the Other Options section meant for a set, or is it for the whole analysis? If it's the ladder, where would I put different options for a specific set?
Other Options is where you put other things the Pokemon could do that aren't just totally unviable, so yeah it's for the analysis as a whole. If you want to put the move as an alternative on the set (which I am assuming you want Seed Bonb to be) you should mention in the the moves section.
 
Thank you! I'll start going over the analysis for errors now.

EDIT: I added some OO stuff. Is there a particular reason why Swords Dance is good? It seems outclassed. I added Assault Vest and Coba Berry, so I'd like some advice on that. I put the tag as QC Ready, so fire away.
 
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Take this with a grain of salt, as I have no had any real experience with Chestnaught, but, I don't see why Leech Seed and Spiky Shield shouldn't be used over Synthesis and Roar. Leech Seed is good (soooo good - Gourgiest and Trevenant can testify to this), and is better at chipping health away, acting as a more proactive means of punishing and forcing switches (which works extremely well in conjunction with Spikes). Spiky Shield is good for punishing the ever prevalent Volt Switch (I'm dumb - Volt Switch is not a contact move oops) and U-Turn, locking in choiced attackers (which, admittedly, is pretty much just Genesect and a few others), and scouting moves, which makes switching in and out much safer. In addition to that, Synthesis isn't all that reliable a means of recovery with Sand still being so popular. (Mega) Venusaur probably gets away with it more easily because he really doesn't care about any of the weather starters at all - Grass / Poison / Leech Seed with Thick Fat and a moderately useful base form means he has a good match-up against a number of different Pokemon. Chesnaught's movepool, by contrast, is limited, he doesn't boast the same base stats, and his ability is situational at best. I really think Chesnaught needs Spiky Shield and Leech Seed in order to capitalize on his role as a supporting Pokemon.

Maybe something like this?

Support
#########
name: Defensive
move 1: Spikes
move 2: Leech Seed / Roar
move 3: Hammer Arm
move 4: Spiky Shield / Stone Edge / Synthesis (AC?)
ability: Bulletproof
item: Leftovers
evs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
nature: Impish
 
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Take this with a grain of salt, as I have no had any real experience with Chestnaught, but, I don't see why Leech Seed and Spiky Shield shouldn't be used over Synthesis and Roar. Leech Seed is good (soooo good - Gourgiest and Trevenant can testify to this), and is better at chipping health away, acting as a more proactive means of punishing and forcing switches (which works extremely well in conjunction with Spikes). Spiky Shield is good for punishing the ever prevalent Volt Switch (I'm dumb - Volt Switch is not a contact move oops) and U-Turn, locking in choiced attackers (which, admittedly, is pretty much just Genesect and a few others), and scouting moves, which makes switching in and out much safer. In addition to that, Synthesis isn't all that reliable a means of recovery with Sand still being so popular. (Mega) Venusaur probably gets away with it more easily because he really doesn't care about any of the weather starters at all - Grass / Poison / Leech Seed with Thick Fat and a moderately useful base form means he has a good match-up against a number of different Pokemon. Chesnaught's movepool, by contrast, is limited, he doesn't boast the same base stats, and his ability is situational at best. I really think Chesnaught needs Spiky Shield and Leech Seed in order to capitalize on his role as a supporting Pokemon.

Maybe something like this?

Support
#########
name: Defensive
move 1: Spikes
move 2: Leech Seed / Roar
move 3: Hammer Arm
move 4: Spiky Shield / Stone Edge / Synthesis (AC?)
ability: Bulletproof
item: Leftovers
evs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
nature: Impish
Tyranitar isn't going to last long with Hammer Arm on the set, so Sand isn't a problem. Roar is a must to get it's counters out and get chip damage. The fourth move is dedicated to taking care of some of its checks, while the rest of the set is dedicated to getting hazards up.

EDIT: I changed the name of the defensive set to Bulky Hazard Setter to prevent furthur confusion.
 
Tyranitar isn't going to last long with Hammer Arm on the set, so Sand isn't a problem.
Fair enough. However, being able to kill Tyranitar doesn't mean the Sand goes away (or even stops the opponent from switching out) - 5 or more turns without reliable recovery on a Pokemon weak to Flying, Fire, Poison, Ice, Fairy and Psychic who needs 3 or more turns to do his job is not good. Especially when that Pokemon has useful resistances to Rock, Ground, Water, Electric, Grass, and Dark. He's bound to find opportunities to switch-in and force opponent's out (and because of that he will need to restore his health). Not only does the prevalence of Sand make Synthesis kind of unreliable, using Synthesis is the equivalent of letting an opponent switch-in for free - Leech Seed and Spiky Shield, though, will keep the momentum going, restore health, and scout for moves. Leech Seed even gives Chesnaught an opportunity to force out Pokemon he wouldn't otherwise because losing 1/8 of your health at the end of every turn makes staying in very unattractive.

Roar is a must to get it's counters out and get chip damage.
I also disagree with this. Let's go through the Pokemon you've listed in Checks & Counters.

Crobat:
Roar is worthless against Crobat. He has taunt to make 3/4 of your moves worthless, and Brave Bird will OHKO you if he's running a 252 ATK spread, and will deal 78% minimum without it. The only way Roar will be forcing Crobat out is if the opponent uses Defog instead of Taunt (which means you'll have to put Stealth Rock and Spikes back on the field again), or if he fails to OHKO you with Brave Bird. The first undoes all of your hard work, and the second one will leave you crippled for the rest of the match, unless you get lucky and Roar brings in something that doesn't threaten you. Roar is not a means to deal with Crobat. Use other Pokemon.

Talonflame:
Roar is situationally useful against Talonflame and will only work if the following conditions are fulfilled; 1) Stealth Rock is on the field, 2) The opponent is running Swords Dance Talonflame, 3) The opponent attempted to use Chesnaught as a means to set up Swords Dance Talonflame, and 4) The opponent doesn't know you're running Roar. Choice Band Talonflame will wreck you no matter what, and if the opponent knows you're running Roar we get into a prediction war where the best outcome (for you) is that you managed to Roar out Talonflame, while the worst outcome is that you lost Chesnaught because you didn't switch to Rotom-W / Rotom-H / Heatran. Roar is not a reliable means of dealing with Talonflame. Use other Pokemon.

Skarmory:
Skarmory, if running Taunt, will render 3/4 of your moves worthless, while Brave Bird is a guaranteed 2HKO. The outcome of trying to use Roar on Skarmory is that you have either just lost 70% of your health (minimum) and done absolutely nothing but force out an extremely health ready-to-come-back-in-at-any-time physical wall, or you're Taunt'd and are forced out anyways. Roar is not a reliable means of dealing with Skarmory. Use other Pokemon.

Hawlucha:
This one I'll concede to. Hawlucha will probably use you as set-up fodder for a Swords Dance sweep or Baton Pass. Roar will definitely be a useful means of forcing him out, but Acrobatics is still a 2HKO with an item. Roar is definitely useful against Hawlucha.

Xatu:
It should be obvious why using Roar against Xatu is a really bad idea.

Trevenant & Gourgiest:
Also really bad ideas. They both carry Will-O-Wisp and will cripple you for the rest of the match if you use Roar instead of switching out to something like Heatran.

Aegislash:
Like Hawlucha, Swords Dance Aegislash really does not appreciate being Roar'd out. Tank / Mixed sets that don't run Hidden Power [Ice] are hardcore walled by you, though. Roar is definitely useful against Swords Dance Aegislash.

Toxicroak:
Toxicroak is kind of good I guess maybe? Permanent Rain is gone, and Charizard Y is relatively popular. The introduction of the Fairy-type means Toxicroak has to choose between being walled by Fairy-type Pokemon or Gliscor, and is walled or run over by a number of others. That said, Toxicroak can't do jack to you without a boost, so if you run Roar, you could actually use this to your advantage. It just depends on whether or not Toxicroak becomes popular. Just like Hawlucha and Aegislash, Roar is good against Toxicroak.

Volcarona:
You mentioned Specially Offensive Fire-types, and this is one that came to mind. However, Timid 252 SATK Volcarona does (90 - 106.3%) to 252 / 0 Chesnaught with and unboosted Fiery Dance, which gives Volcarona a 75% chance to OHKO you after Stealth Rock assuming you're at full health, and is guaranteed to OHKO you with just a wee bit of prior damage. All he has to do is use Fiery Dance to kill you, nab a free +1, and then Quiver Dance / Roost whatever you switch in. Roar is not a good idea against Volcarona unless you are really confident that your opponent won't do what I just said. Heatran also 2HKO's you without a problem.

Needless to say, (more than) half of the Pokemon you've listed as checks and counters that you "must have" Roar for put you in a position where using Roar is a really bad idea because it'll (more than likely) cost you Chesnaught and won't stop them from coming back in later. Leech Seed isn't very good against any of these Pokemon either (except on the switch) but Leech has much more utility since it restores health while forcing switches (which will rack up hazard damage) - essentially doing Roar's job and more.

Roar is not a reliable means of dealing with many of the Pokemon you have listed as Checks and Counters. Rotom-W, Heatran, and Unaware Clefable are, though. Leech Seed will still force switches, too, and will aid in wearing down opponents.

This isn't to say that Roar isn't good or anything, though. I just think Leech Seed + Spiky Shield might be a smidge better.
 
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  • If you see a Flying-type on the opposing team, make sure you have a good idea of when it will switch in so you can force it out with Roar.
I specifically stated to keep an open mind when there are potential threats on the opposing team (Flying-types in this case). Roar isn't specifically used for dealing with Chesnaught's checks, Stone Edge is. Roar just has the potential to do so temporarily, especially with Stealth Rock on the field. Besides, a Pokemon can't be perfect, and Chesnaught definitely isn't perfect. A teammate such as Rotom-W can deal with them better.

What you have given me is a reason to put Leech Seed as the first slash. Stone Edge and Roar can take care of these threats, but they're too situational to work.
 
Leech Seed should definitely get the nod on this set. Leech Seed allows you to force out the #1 and one of the most common threats in the metagame right now: all-out attacking Aegislash. Like Roar, Leech Seed will allow you to force out threats, but in addition to the Spikes damage on the switch, you get an additional 12% on Leech Seed. Stacking onto Spiky Shield, Aegislash and other physical attackers won't be inclined to stay in when they receive a nice 25% deduction in health.
 
Changed order of fourth move to Leech Seed / Stone Edge / Roar. What do you guys think of an offensive set? It seems outclassed, but perhaps a defensively oriented Assault Vest could do well.
 

Jukain

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first of all i don't think spikes are amazing with all the defoggers and excadrills running around

second chesnaught gets the amazing tool that is spiky shield. spiky shield lets you scout, and does damage to so many things. megazard x, talonflame, genesect...the utility of spiky shield is incredible. i would like to see spiky shield alone, it's just so useful.
  • If you really hate Crobat, you can Stone Edge on a predicted switch in.
No one gives a crap about Crobat.

Roar is like...ehh. You can Leech Seed or attack most of the things you would Roar out.

Also, with Leech Seed + Spiky Shield, Synthesis isn't needed. You can just LS and Spiky Shield your way up out of any HP deficit, assuming you're not trying to play super risky with Chesnaught. That leaves room for one last move, as seen below.

My preferred set is:

move 1: Spiky Shield
move 2: Leech Seed
move 3: Hammer Arm
move 4: Seed Bomb / Spikes

spiky shield is the best tool chesnaught has available to it. spiky shield + leech seed gives it all the recovery it needs. hammer arm is the most important stab. seed bomb but spikes are plausible if you want them.
 
Jukain I added the changes. I agree with what each move does to help the team by itself, but I feel like this set is a bit unfocused. I've renamed the set to Utility for now considering Chesnaught's options.
 

Jukain

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ok post-qc discussion

slot 4 should be Synthesis / Roar

synthesis is mainly to help you against teams with mega venu, which can just wear you down while you can't recover health that well thanks to mega venu blocking your leech seed. it's also a nice fail-safe to have, letting you heal up more as needed if you're looking to take on a specific foe better later on.

meanwhile, roar has nice synergy with leech seed. since leech seed tends to force opponents out, you can roar and take away the favorable match-up they look to gain with a switch.
 

Lee

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I agree with Jukain's set but I reckon Poison Jab is more useful than Seed Bomb in that last slot. It deters Grass types, hits Fairies hard and is noteworthy for that 30% Poison chance which, alongside Leech Seed and Spiky Shield, adds to the whole 'chip damage' thing he has going on. Seed Bomb just capitalises your weakness to opposing Grass types/Flying types.

I'm dubious of Synthesis's utility on a set that has Leech Seed, Spiky Shield and Leftovers; you'll be healing plenty. Roar and Spikes are both fantastic moves and if this was Gen V I'd be all over them but this gen...ehhhh. Chesnaught is a pretty bad Spiker considering how easily every Defogger in the game can switch in on him and force him out and Leech Seed + Spiky Shield can be a viable enough phazing option over Roar as it is. The QC reasoning for Roar is questionable; why use Leech Seed and then hit Roar? If the opponent stays in you just blew away your healing source. If you're confident they're going to switch then Leech Seed the switch and then Spiky Shield to knock off 25-37% of their health before switching out.
 
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I feel like I should be following your advice, but there are clashing opinions here lol

On a more serious note, I'll redo the fourth slot.

EDIT: I removed Spikes and Roar from the analysis. Two things made me decide to do this: The generational shift and Chesnaught's own movepool. With the advent of the Defog buff, Spikes aren't very useful anymore. Chesnaught also doesn't have a very good typing to use them. I also removed Roar, because like Jukain and Lee have been saying, Leech Seed and Spiky Shield do it indirectly well enough anyways. I would be open to more suggestions for the set.
 
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I agree with Jukain's set but I reckon Poison Jab is more useful than Seed Bomb in that last slot. It deters Grass types, hits Fairies hard and is noteworthy for that 30% Poison chance which, alongside Leech Seed and Spiky Shield, adds to the whole 'chip damage' thing he has going on. Seed Bomb just capitalises your weakness to opposing Grass types/Flying types.
Poison Jab is balls. It can't even 2HKO specially defensive Clefable, which is about as physically frail as OU fairies get. The only grass types I can think of that are common in OU are Ferrothorn, Trevenant, and Mega Venusaur, none of which are weak to poison. I can't see any reason to run it.
 
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Poison Jab is balls. It can't even 2HKO specially defensive Clefable, which is about as physically frail as OU fairies get. The only grass types I can think of that are common in OU are Ferrothorn and Mega Venusaur, neither of which are weak to poison. I can't see any reason to run it.
Lee , addressing this issue, would running enough attack EVs to get a guaranteed 2HKO on Specially Defensive Clefable help Chesnaught do his job better? At the moment, Chesnaught is running two attacks.

EDIT: Just realized that you need 252+ Attack EVs to 2HKO guaranteed. Never mind!
 
I'm not QC so ignore me if you like (especially since I've never used chesnaught), but I disagree a lot with the removal of roar and spikes. If you're in against something you can't touch but can't touch you, spikes would give you something to do while you're in there.

That being said, if you did re-add them I'd put Roar before/without Spikes. Phazing is so strong in my opinion, especially if you can keep SR up. If you bait the switch to the defogger that can so easily switch in, phaze them and it disrupts their momentum, takes 50% from Mandibuzz notably and forces out the ones you can't touch (Lati@s and Skarmory being the ones that come to mind).
 
I'm not QC so ignore me if you like (especially since I've never used chesnaught), but I disagree a lot with the removal of roar and spikes. If you're in against something you can't touch but can't touch you, spikes would give you something to do while you're in there.

That being said, if you did re-add them I'd put Roar before/without Spikes. Phazing is so strong in my opinion, especially if you can keep SR up (they'd have to come from a team mate though duh.). If you bait the switch to the defogger that can so easily switch in, you phaze them, it disrupts their momentum and takes 50% from Mandibuzz notably. The only other defoggers I can think of are Lati@s and Skarmory and you aren't touching them either (I guess Skarm would disapprove of being seeded).
That was my thought process before Jukain and Lee helped me out. Spikes sucks because of Chesnaught's typing, which lures in every fucking Defogger in the game, and Defog. Roar is a phazing option, but as Lee says, you can force anything out with Spiky Shield and Leech Seed. I've used Chesnaught before, and you really don't need them.
 
One last thing I'd argue is that Roar's main use would be defending your hazards by keeping the defogger out rather than chipping them directly. You can't force out a defogger with spiky shield as spiky shield only blocks attacking moves, unless I'm mistaken, which means they'd pull off the defog that they're switching in to use. That's the value I see in it.

Edit: To clarify: Spiky Shield doesn't stop defog so you can't force out the defogger by using it before they defog. You at least have a chance to predict the switch and do so with roar, and most defoggers would be willing to take one round of leech seed to pull it off.
 
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I don't mean that Spiky Shield and Leech Seed directly force Pokemon out. Rather, many Pokemon don't want to be taking little bits of damage, thus they want to get out, right?
 

alexwolf

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Synthesis is useful because without it you have no recovery at all against team with Mega Venu. Also, put back Roar in AC, it's useful for a lot of physical set up sweepers that you wall but can't immediately threaten, and works nicely with Leech Seed.
 

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