Choice Scarf

Nix_Hex

Nix_Hex

I hope you catch a million Pokémon
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This thread is only about Choice Scarf, not Band/Specs since it serves a completely different purpose 90% of the time. If you want to discuss either of those, go here.

Attempting to start some discussion as part of the movement to set DST in a positive direction. I plan to update the OP since a large number of existing OPs have just rotted away. I'll credit people who respond with good info so no vital information gets lost among tens or hundreds of pages.

Choice Scarf

Bag_Choice_Scarf_Sprite.png


Description:
The user gains a 50% increase to Speed, but can only use the first move selected until it switches out or has its Choice Scarf removed. This boost does not count as a stat change. If this item is replaced with another Choice item, such as by Trick or Switcheroo, then the user will not be locked into their original choice. If the holder is locked into a non-attacking move and is Taunted, they will use Struggle. If the holder is runs out of PP for the attack they are locked into, they will use Struggle, but if the PP for that move is restored by an Elixir or Leppa Berry, they can select a new attack. If a Pokemon obtains a Choice item after using an attack, they will be locked into that attack. If Magic Room is used while a Choice-locked Pokemon is on the field, then the Pokemon can switch attacks, but once Magic Room ceases to take effect, they are again locked on the move they were originally locked in on before Magic Room was used.
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Choice Scarf was one of two additions to the Choice item family introduced in DP. Several powerful but average Speed Pokemon turned into swift revenge killers just by holding one, and were able to turn the tide of the match into your favor. The item commonly saw use on offensive beasts such as Heatran, Tyranitar, Magnezone, Rotom-A, the lesser seen Heracross, and on slightly weaker but still viable users such as Flygon (U-turn for scouting), Shaymin (to fire off speedy Seed Flares), Jirachi (for flinch hax), Celebi, and Starmie. The latter two seem strange, but their ability to trick away their Choice Scarf and cripple unsuspecting switch-ins such as Blissey proved invaluable.

In Black and White, the Choice Scarf has returned, and greatly aids many high power but low Speed Pokemon such as Haxorus, Darmanitan (yes, base 95 is slow), and Chandelure become, you guessed it, insanely powerful revenge killers. Victini can use its great base 100 Attack and Speed along with its signature 180 Base Power V-create (hopefully in the sun) for a massive powered hit and run. Even the formerly mediocre but now ever-present Politoed can abuse its rain-boosted Hydro Pump.

The main disadvantage to using a Choice Scarf is obviously the fact that it locks you into a move. Even after you obtain a revenge kill, your opponent can send in a Pokemon who resists your move and either set up or kill your Pokemon outright. This can be solved with the moves U-turn and Volt Switch, which allow you to scout for your opponents switches. Combine this with entry hazards to slowly wear down your opponent, bringing them into safe OHKO range for your own sweepers. However, there is a misconception that Choice Scarf makes you into a guaranteed powerhouse. In most cases that is certainly not true; Choice Scarf only boosts your Speed, not your offenses. For the entire first year of the 5th Generation, Excadrill has made most Choice Scarf users obsolete. Now that it's banned, Choice Scarf may just become as relevant as it was in DPP. Overall, Choice Scarf can be a deadly weapon in the right hands.

Discussion time. Who are some useful revenge killers in the 5th generation (this includes old Pokemon who got useful Dream World abilities or had significant movepool improvements) and who can annoy the hell out of your opponents by Tricking or scouting? Has the potency of Choice Scarf decreased with defensive behemoths such as Ferrothorn lurking around every corner?

More popular Choice Scarfers:
Terrakion has received much love in this thread and it's no surprise why. Its ability to switch into a bulky Volcarona (especially in sand) while it Quiver Dances and swiftly KO it with Stone Edge is vital to its success. It also has one of the strongest unboosted Close Combats in the game. It still (like any physical Scarfer) has problems with with Gliscor, who takes Stone Edge relatively well, resists Close Combat and X-Scissor, and is immune to Earthquake.

The dangers of Choice Scarf:
The riskiest aspect of using a Choice Scarf is being stuck into one attack. A nasty side effect of this is that any dangerous set up sweeper who is immune or resists the move that your Scarfer is locked into can switch in for little or no cost and start setting up. Dragon Dance and Quiver Dance are the greatest suspects, though the latter (Volcarona) can be taken care of by Scarf Terrakion, as mentioned before. Gyarados, Salamence, Dragonite, and Haxorus are all extremely dangerous, all sporting several resistances (though Haxorus is quite frail), giving them a free turn of set up. A back up Scarfer is usually the best way to check these threats.

October 2011's Contributions:
Pwnemon - Excadrill's effect on Choice Scarf users and how its recent banishment may turn the tide for the item.
Myzozoa - Stressed that Scarf Terrakion isn't unstoppable, first person to really question its usage in an intelligent manner. A great point of discussion.
Pocket - Terrakion's SpD boost helps it switch into Volcarona should it attack.
BurningMan - set up sweepers
 
Overall my favorite revenge killer to this day remains to be Choice Scarf Heatran. It's such a shame that his main STAB is completely hindered by the presence of rain. Either way, Scarf Heatran makes a solid counter / revenge killer to that stupid bloody Sub DD Dragonite that's everywhere right now. So irksome. Besides that Scarf Terrakion is probably the overall best revenge killer right now. With the extremely high speed stat and outspeeding +2 (I think?) bulky Volcarona and OHKOing with Stone Edge is a God-send.

I have felt that since Excadrill was in the tier that Choice Scarf pokemon were more of a liability than anything. There has never been another Pokemon like Excadrill. Literally one turn of set up and you're facing a sweep. So I'm pretty excited to see how the metagame will change with Choice Scarf users being more usable as revenge killers.
 
I think choice scarfers(and choicers in general for the same reason) are better because of the advent of team preview. Team preview allows you to scout their team to see if any pokemon can wall you. You can take the super effective move on the pokemon in or predict and use a super effective move on the predicted mon.

Example

Scarf Terrakion vs. +2 Landorus(at a % where it is able to be ko'd by Stone Edge and only 20% chance of KO from Close Combat)

You know your opponent has a Ferrothorn(only because of TP) that can easily take a Stone Edge but would die from Close Combat. What do you do in this position? It obviously depends on the other teammates, but this is simple example showing why Choice Scarfers have an easier time predicting. They also have a smaller chance getting set up on a mon from a resisted move. (such as Stone Edge from Scarf Terrakion against Ferrothorn or EQ's on shit like Gyara and Salamence).
 
I don't know about everyone else, but I've seen lots of Scarf Terrakion. And it's no surprise why; both of its STABs hit very hard and it gets nice coverage (Fun fact: Choice Scarf Latios with Psychic OHKO's and outspeeds).

I've always been a huge fan of Scarf Victini. V-Create is almost impossible to beat under the sun (you'll likely be switching out after you get the first KO anyways, so no worries about speed drop). It also gets U-turn and nice coverage with attacks like Fusion Bolt and 100% accurate Zen Headbutt. And Final Gambit is an incredible move in a metagame lacking in Explosion. It's a great choice for any sun team since it has ridiculous STAB, great coverage, and can "pull the plug" on any major threat that doesn't have over 100 Base HP.

Also, I remember a conversation in DST some time ago about Scarf Scizor... Does anyone have some sort of report on that? Is it effective?
 
I'm a pretty big fan of Scarf Rotom in rain with Thunder and HydroPump spam. For me, it is one of the best and most reliable revenge killers, especially in late game.
 
you know, i can see scarftran and scarflure really wrecking in the sun getting a boost to their stab, Dont even get me started or mr flaming eyebrows monkey (darmanitan). But seriously, fire scarfers in the sun are deadly.
 
I can report that you're better off with Bandy Scizor in most cases. A banded BP is gonna do more than Scarf Iron Head can achieve so you're basically just boosting U-turn's speed (used for when you predict the opponent to switch, speed irrelevant) and that of your coverage moves, also basically irrelevant and used for predicting switches. He also loses the sweet ability to OHKO full HP Lati@s with Pursuit. In niche cases, the latter is better, but unless you have some serious speed problems you shouldn't use him.

The best Scarfer before Exca's banning (y u no mention OP?) was easily Rotom-W. He was actually basically the only scarfer. With insane STABs in rain and crazy speed with a scarf, access to trick, volt switch, good bulk and one weakness it's no surprise that 23% of people ran the washing machine on their team. Now that Drill and Thundurus (Two pokemon that really fucked with speed tiers) are banned, though, I can see a rise in other powerful Scarfers such as Darmanitan, Hydreigon, or others who previously couldn't shine with those two around.
 
I run a Jolly Choice Scarf Scizor on my all Scarf team and U-turn usually, if not all the time, OHKOes Latios after Stealth Rock. If you need more overall bulk and power, go with Choice Band Scizor, because Scarf Bullet Punch is super weak (still handy against weakened Scarf Haxorus and Terrakion). Effectively, Jolly Scizor is 3/5 as powerful as Adamant Choice Band Scizor so if you're looking for power, Scarf Scizor is not the way to go. And Excadrill's effect on Scarf usage is one of the main things I planned on mentioning in the OP but strangely forgot about. I will keep it updated regularly and will credit those who post good stuff like that.

in other words, I'll be helping keep track of good posters for *cough* potential winners of POTM..... *cough cough*
 
Hi Nix, in the description do you mean "Choice Scarf removed" not Choice Band removed?
;p

I am kind of leaning toward the though that the best scarfers either resist SR or have Levitate (Terrakion, Rotom-W, Landorus, Mienshao are all great since the latter 3 have scouting and Terrakion has great coverage and speed tier), whereas Victini and Darmanitan are harder to use since you have to spin for them to last long. What I find odd, however, is the lack of Scarf Gengar and Latios, and I can't put my finger on why this is so. When I run Scarf Latios, I'd really rather run Specs for more power. I'm thinking Scarf Latios just isn't that good because DM causes -2 (even though Scarfers are more hit and run style), but I just don't like it when compared to, say, Rotom-W. Gengar is similar.

Is anyone else feeling this way? That certain Pokemon that seem to have good criteria for being Scarfers are just underwhelming? And does anyone have more insight as to why the feeling of inadequacy is there?
 
You want to mention Gengar because it can Trick, and do tons of annoying stuff after getting rid of it (such as be fast, hit hard, usual Gengar fun). And that description was copied from the on-site description, which was probably copy-pasta from the CB analysis but forgot to change.
 
@ Vox: It's simple: never scarf a fast poke unless it's a situational counter.

When GF makes pokes, it likes to balance BST's (well duh.) Ergo, slower pokes tend to get more bulk, better attack stats, or some combination of the two in exchange for getting that shitty 60-80 speed tier. Blaziken is a perfect example of this: its meh speed meant it had great everything else, so when it got speed boost it was just like "aw hell no." Scarf patches the most important (and hardest to patch) stat in Pokemon in exchange for locking moves. The pokemon that make the most use of this are, of course, the Pokemon that hit hard and have good enough bulk to switch in on a lot. That is usually the pokemon with the shitty 60-80 base speed tier (or less, but they're just best off being tanks). Scarfing a fast Pokemon is pretty useless because it already outspends everything and has all the speed it needs (Gengar and Latios being your examples, both are only outsped by Starmie in OU) Speed is at the same time the most important stat in Pokemon and the least important, because anything more than the opponent's speed +1 is wasted stat points.

@ NixHex, you're best off using Specs, not Scarf gengar unless you want to outspeed other scarfers specifically.
 
Scarf Landorus is mad good. It's basically Scarf Flygon on steroids. It outspeeds Volcarona at +1, as well as any base 100 really. It also outspeeds all non-max speed DXS, which is a great perk. Try it out!
 
Lol, you know the metagame changed when we get a Choice Scarf thread this late in.

Despite popular opinion turning against it, I still enjoy using Scarf Hydreigon on occasion. Landorus is really great, especially because Sand Force effectively gives him a Life Orb boost as well. Darmanitan is just terrifying.

An underrated Scarfer that I use is Staraptor. Base 100 Speed is a little undesirable but frees you to use Adamant with a little more impunity. With Intimidate (or Reckless) U-Turn, and powerful STAB mine tends to take down at least a mon and a half. He's also awesome bait for priority users, so you can double-switch and catch the Mamoswine or Scizor by surprise.
 
Terrakion looks like one of the best Scarfers in the game, in terms of revenge killing, as things like Scarf Landorus/Rotom-W do a bit more than revenge killing with all their Volt Switches/U-Turns, albeit its Scarf set is probably inferior to its Double Booster/CB Sets.

On the subject of "Jolly Scarf Scizor", well it's the devil. It completely wrecks Celebi, which is my main counter for Volt Switch/U-Turn teams and probably one of the better counters to the duo in B/W, I've only faced one, but it was seriously insane to see Celebi get outsped like that.

Scarftar is actually pretty cute this gen as well, especially with Volt Switch being given to Forretress, so that you can crush Starmie, weakened Jellicent and other Forretress switchins that lose to T-Tar.
 
All the way down in RU i've been spamming Torterra as a amazing revenge killer. No one ever sees it coming. Thats the best part. He also gets STAB EQ and Wood Hammer. His speed gets around 320's If you give him full speed and the scarf. and him being a Torterra, he can still take a hit if he needs too. I love him.
 
Gen. Empoleon said:
With the extremely high speed stat and outspeeding +2 (I think?)
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Yep. +2 bulky Volcarona hits 472, and Scarf Terrakion hits 519.

Scarf Mamoswine with Icicle Spear is one of the most useful revenge killers I've ever used. Make it Jolly and you can check any type of Dragonite (except jolly DD, but nobody uses that.)

Oh, and Scarf Conkeldurr can outspeed Modest Hydreigon, Jolly Lucario, and neutral base 100s.
 
JT Swift said:
Yep. +2 bulky Volcarona hits 472, and Scarf Terrakion hits 519.

Scarf Mamoswine with Icicle Spear is one of the most useful revenge killers I've ever used. Make it Jolly and you can check any type of Dragonite (except jolly DD, but nobody uses that.)

Oh, and Scarf Conkeldurr can outspeed Modest Hydreigon, Jolly Lucario, and neutral base 100s.
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No offense, but, Scarfing Conkledurr so he can outspeed two fighting weak pokemon seems silly, when he can just mach punch them.

If you're afraid Mach Punch won't kill, then give a CB instead.

As far as scarfers go, I really like scarf Haxorus. It can revenge kill every dragon other than a +1 Salamence, Bulky Dragonite with full health, but, I don't see Mence that often (though lack of Excadrill will prob change that). I guess technically, in terms of dragons, Scarf Flygon wouldn't be chased away, but, I've never seen it in OU this gen.

Scarf Hydreigon gets chased out if locked into focus blast or fire blast (sadly -2 draco meteor still OHKOs), CB dragonite locked into outrage is outsped and killed (even through multiscale) or forced out otherwise, and with mold breaker the only steel types who can freely switch in is Heatran with its air balloon intact, and Skarmory. The former can't survive 2 brick bricks, though, unless invested in HP.

Lando/Terrakion cannot stay post swords dance in if they've taken life orb damage, SR damage, or in the case of Terrakion, a def drop from close combat. Though, if either used rock polish Haxorus doesn't stand a chance.. but, choice scarf users aren't meant for revenging against rock polish.

Lucario fails to OHKO with +2 Life orb boosted extreme speed or vaccum wave, and is out-sped and KO'ed by EQ. In the case it carries air balloon, which is uncommon brick still nets the KO after life orb recoil, and OHKOs with out it 62% of the time.
 
Unless bulky volcarona becomes a top 5 pokemon in usage, scarf terrakion will be less popular than you think. The best scarf pokemon have much more game than terrakion which is essentially 4 attacks on a pokemon that is already fast.

The scarf pokemon that were a big deal in generation 4 are in order as follows:

1. Scarf Flygon: 2 immunites were only the beginning here, uturn and amazing stab moves are what made up for its relatively lack luster power. Landorus will replace it and be much better than it ever was for essentially the same reasons.

2. Rotom-a: with trick, spin blocking, and good stab coverage moves, scarf rotom was an asset on every team. Its even better now because rotom-w at least has gained a water type stab, volt-switch, and is no longer weak to pursuit. I predict this to be the most popular scarfed pokemon post-excadrill.

3. Jirachi: with trick and uturn it was sort of a happy middle-ground between flygon and rotom-a. It lacked a lot of power, but it could flinch hax and had good coverage moves. I don't see it returning to dominance in a game filled with water-types.

4. Tyranitar- because of its high attack and pursuit, scarf tar was popular on stall teams as a check to spin blockers and lucario. It will still be popular, and may be even better in the weather wars dominated metagame. Team preview negates part of its usefulness, but its still very good.
 
Scarf Terrakion is definitely the best scarfer in this metagame, I mean, it's Close Combat is just so insanely powerful, even unboosted, that it's a sin to use another scarfer. Also, Fighting-type attacks have such great coverage on Pokemon such as Tyranitar, and it also has excellent neutral coverage against everything else. The only common Pokemon that like these Close Combats are Gliscor, Dragonite, and Volcarona, and the latter two are taken care of by a swift Stone Edge to the face. It's simple, really, if you switch in on a Fighting weak Pokemon, click Stone Edge and watch as their Dragonite is 2HKOed, or there Volcarona is destroyed as it comes in.

The only issues with Terrakion, though, are how weak it is to Gliscor, and how frail it is generally. It hates rain boosted Water-type attacks, and that really hampers it's abilities in some way. Gliscor can come in anytime, so it's pretty useful to have something that can reliably beat Gliscor. A lure such as Calm Mind Jirachi works quite well; just Hidden Power Ice off the bat as Gliscor switches in (no pun intended) and boom. Your Terrakion's in the clear to just spam the hell out of Close Combat.

I'd just like to highlight one other thing about Choice Scarf, and that's how easily you can create an illusion that you're bluffing. For example, I used an Expert Belt Hydregion on a team, and literally everything expects Choice Scarf as you switch it into something faster than it. As they switch out and sponge the attack with their wall, you can simply destroy it with a coverage move. That's the really beauty of the Choice Scarf, in that since it's becoming more and more common, it's easier to bluff using it on a Pokemon, which opens up a lot of advantages for sweeping and breaking holes into opposing teams.
 
andysensei said:
CB dragonite locked into outrage is outsped and killed (even through multiscale) or forced out otherwise,
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Mold Breaker disables Multiscale. Even so, Adamant Scarf Haxorus can't attain a OHKO on max HP / 0 Def Dragonite with Multiscale intact.

One of the main problems I see with Scarf is that people misuse it. You're not getting the most out of it if you just give it to something powerful to make it fast and powerful. You need to be strategic. You're giving a Pokemon that Scarf for a specific purpose, whether it be important KOes on faster Pokemon (Haxorus) or synergy (Scarf Landorus + Rotom-W and Scizor)

Speaking of Scizor, he makes a great Scarfer. Nobody sees it coming, as you can still run Bullet Punch and revenge kill stuff to maintain a subterfuge. There are so many Pokemon that get caught out by a fast Pursuit or U-Turn, namely all the speedy Psychics. You can catch ScarfTar with Superpower as well (Bullet Punch won't KO, and CB has a very small chance to.)

Something else: How useful is U-Turn on Scarfers? Would it be a good move on every one that could spare the moveslot? Or is it better left to stuff that uses specific coverage, instead of general hard hitters like Terrakion?
 
I sometimes run Scarf on my Serperior. Contrary Leaf Storms are good especially when you are outspeeding the foe. It does miss out on some power initially, but when you are quickly boosting your stats, it doesn't matter as much. Granted, being locked into an 8PP move is not the best idea with things like Dragonite and Herbivore users out there. I am just throwing this out for someone to chew on.
 
King Serperior said:
I sometimes run Scarf on my Serperior. Contrary Leaf Storms are good especially when you are outspeeding the foe. It does miss out on some power initially, but when you are quickly boosting your stats, it doesn't matter as much. Granted, being locked into an 8PP move is not the best idea with things like Dragonite and Herbivore users out there. I am just throwing this out for someone to chew on.
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This isn't Dream World, so Contrary Serperior isn't yet released.
 
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