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Choice Scarf
- Thread starter Nix_Hex
- Start date
whos the best scarfer in gen 5 ou??? scarf Tarrekion and haxxorous look good
Likely Rotom-W; it has amazing typing, great power, and a movepool that's ong the Goldilocks zone.
I used to have a lot of fun with Choice Scarf Haxorus with Rivalry. Why Rivalry? Because I had issues with the genies, and they're always male, that's why. Without the boost from rivalry Outrage was not a guaranteed OHKO on Thundurus and Landorus, so the boost from it was necessary.
That's the biggest boon that Choice Scarf has in my opinion; the ability to easily deal with a number of Pokemon that could otherwise give you trouble, while still giving you some offensive power outside of that role. Haxorus is a great example of this, able to take out things like Latios and Dragonite that can be huge, difficult to wall/counter threats for many teams, while actually being able to sweep late game as well.
Darmanitan works similarly in the sun, and Landorus in Sand, with those two having the added advantage of running U-Turn to scout.
As for why Meinshao isn't showing up so much, I think one of the reasons is that any decently strong priority rapes it, and random protect users really screw it over. One of my favorite things to do when a Meinshao switches into my Blissey expecting to OHKO is to protect and watch it lose half its health :P.
That's the biggest boon that Choice Scarf has in my opinion; the ability to easily deal with a number of Pokemon that could otherwise give you trouble, while still giving you some offensive power outside of that role. Haxorus is a great example of this, able to take out things like Latios and Dragonite that can be huge, difficult to wall/counter threats for many teams, while actually being able to sweep late game as well.
Darmanitan works similarly in the sun, and Landorus in Sand, with those two having the added advantage of running U-Turn to scout.
As for why Meinshao isn't showing up so much, I think one of the reasons is that any decently strong priority rapes it, and random protect users really screw it over. One of my favorite things to do when a Meinshao switches into my Blissey expecting to OHKO is to protect and watch it lose half its health :P.
Honestly, I run Mold Breaker on Haxorus to break Dragonite's Multiscale, while outspeeding said Dragonite if it Dragon Dances on my switch. The best it can do (if my opponent knows I'm running a Scarf) is Extremespeed, which doesn't always 2HKO. If not, it may try to Outrage or Dragon Claw, not knowing that I am going to take it out in one Outrage unscathed. That alone makes Mold Breaker so useful. Also it let's me hit Gengar and Rotom for slightly more power and no auto confusion than Outrage with Earthquake.
Yeah I know the Rivalry was just on my particular team for my particular situation. I didn't find I needed Mold Breaker most of the time since almost everyone has Male Dragonites, and with the Rivalry boost Outrage OHKO'd through Multiscale iirc.
My point was that Choice Scarf is extremely useful for that specific purpose: you can put it on the Pokemon that best deals with the threats specific to your team. Choice Scarf isn't always so much to sweep as it is to check threats, with late game sweeping as a potential side bonus. The Pokemon I mentioned above do this very well (I should have mentioned Terrakion as well for this purpose), being able to both KO a large number of dangerous threats and sweep late game once their counters and checks have been either weakened or removed.
I didn't talk so much about the scouting a tricking aspects because I felt those had been discussed enough already.
Scarf Terrakion has many points that makes it a great revenge killer.
1) Not Pursuit-Trapped
2) Not easily walled - Rock and Fighting with 150+ power is fierce
3) Can switch into Volcarona with impunity (esp. in Sand)
4) Revenges DDNite / resists ExtremeSpeed
5) Outruns Venusaur in Sun, the most common Chloro Sweeper
6) Resists SR
He is one of the few mons that has excellent Speed, but is graced with a smexy 129 base Atk with two extremely powerful STAB moves. This makes Scarf Terrakion a very threatening Scarfer, imo, despite it being locked into a move.
Landorus and Mienshao are also great Scarfers, but they don't have as frightening a coverage (although Sand Force boost is great), and they cannot outrun Sun Venusuar. Landorus does have immunity to Spikes and Mienshao has Regeneration, making them more durable. They both also have U-turn to scout, which is also extremely helpful.
Scarf Haxorus does pack a lot more power, and can actually sweep, like NixHex has mentioned, but it's revenge killing capacity is reduced due to its naturally non-extraordinary Speed.
In the end, it all depends on your team. If you're only looking for sweepers to revenge kill Latios, Tornadus, Starmie, and Dragonite after a DD, you only need Pokemon with 260 Speed to accomplish the job. This is where Scarf Rotom-W and Scarf Haxorus come into play.
1) Not Pursuit-Trapped
2) Not easily walled - Rock and Fighting with 150+ power is fierce
3) Can switch into Volcarona with impunity (esp. in Sand)
4) Revenges DDNite / resists ExtremeSpeed
5) Outruns Venusaur in Sun, the most common Chloro Sweeper
6) Resists SR
He is one of the few mons that has excellent Speed, but is graced with a smexy 129 base Atk with two extremely powerful STAB moves. This makes Scarf Terrakion a very threatening Scarfer, imo, despite it being locked into a move.
Landorus and Mienshao are also great Scarfers, but they don't have as frightening a coverage (although Sand Force boost is great), and they cannot outrun Sun Venusuar. Landorus does have immunity to Spikes and Mienshao has Regeneration, making them more durable. They both also have U-turn to scout, which is also extremely helpful.
Scarf Haxorus does pack a lot more power, and can actually sweep, like NixHex has mentioned, but it's revenge killing capacity is reduced due to its naturally non-extraordinary Speed.
In the end, it all depends on your team. If you're only looking for sweepers to revenge kill Latios, Tornadus, Starmie, and Dragonite after a DD, you only need Pokemon with 260 Speed to accomplish the job. This is where Scarf Rotom-W and Scarf Haxorus come into play.
I use scarfthundurus and It's gre- oh wait
A great scarfer it's Latios, in the rain he can run a set of Draco Meteor / Surf / Thunder / Trick/ Psyshock
he outspeed scarfterrakion, and it's also quite unexpected, everybody thinks it's the specser
@Pwnemon you're right but you should also consider that scarflatios (or the very rare scarfgengar) can get a scarf and being better revengekillers against stuff like +1 ddnite, ddmence, ddhaxorus (or scarfterrakion for volcarona) and the list goes on
Seconding scarfzor and scarfrotom-w
scarfzor it's also very unexpected and gets an even more easy u-turn, I also think that rotom-w will be the second most used scarfer (after terrakion imo) Volt Switch is so good, and you don't miss specs power in the rain, I mean Hydro Pump hurts ALOT.
Another funny scarfed pokèmon was Victini with Final Gambit but now everybody knows it's ''ability'' nerfing him.
In NixHex RMT I also saw scarfcelebi, it is pretty interesting imo, now that excadrill is gone perhaps scarfcelebi might be quite viable
A great scarfer it's Latios, in the rain he can run a set of Draco Meteor / Surf / Thunder / Trick/ Psyshock
he outspeed scarfterrakion, and it's also quite unexpected, everybody thinks it's the specser
@Pwnemon you're right but you should also consider that scarflatios (or the very rare scarfgengar) can get a scarf and being better revengekillers against stuff like +1 ddnite, ddmence, ddhaxorus (or scarfterrakion for volcarona) and the list goes on
Seconding scarfzor and scarfrotom-w
scarfzor it's also very unexpected and gets an even more easy u-turn, I also think that rotom-w will be the second most used scarfer (after terrakion imo) Volt Switch is so good, and you don't miss specs power in the rain, I mean Hydro Pump hurts ALOT.
Another funny scarfed pokèmon was Victini with Final Gambit but now everybody knows it's ''ability'' nerfing him.
In NixHex RMT I also saw scarfcelebi, it is pretty interesting imo, now that excadrill is gone perhaps scarfcelebi might be quite viable
Scarfed Flygon is still pretty solid, especially now with Exca gone. SwSw Kingdra and Excadril in sand were always putting a huge damper on scarf effectiveness, and now they pretty much don't exist (other than random kingdras on non-drizzle teams).
The thing about Flygon that makes it not great is that there are virtually no reasons to use Flygon over Landorus except the Dragon STAB. Landorus has better Attack, can go mixed better, and that one extra speed point is really nice. Overall, Flygon is just bound to be overshadowed until the day that he dies (at least he got one Gen of love, unlike some unlucky Pokemon.)
I guess if we're only talking OU this might be the case ;)
This is about OU, since it's posted in the main forum and not the UU subforum. In Flygon's defense, it accomplishes what it needs to (scouting) well because it is the only Pokemon without Magic Guard who resists Stealth Rock and is immune to Spikes and Toxic Spikes. The reason Flygon is dismissed is because it is pathetically weak. Jolly 252 Atk Outrage has only a tiny chance to 2HKO 252 / 252 Bold Blissey, and can only do so after Stealth Rock. But who cares? U-turn allows it to annoy the hell out of anything that thinks it can switch in (or stay in, lol) just because it's a nancy boy Flygon. Just another example of why Choice Scarf is a utility item, not a sweeping aid.
By the way, how many speed your "bulky scarf-mons" run? It all depends on the purpose; if you don't plan to competete with other scarf-mons, you will not need more that 264 - 394 is the absolute peak in the meta - some rarely seen guys like Ninjask, Electrode and Accelgor aren't necessarily included in the word "meta" and outspeeding Deoxys-S is a waste of points. In the case of Flygon 264 is the minimum if you don't want Jolteon to HP Ice you into oblivion. Since Flygons base attack and speed is on the same level, there are a few interesting builds for either more bulk (jolly) or more power (adamant).
A timid one you only needs 16 Ev in order to do its job, gives you points to almost maximize HP and Atk - or less Atk and more S/Def. An adamant one needs at least 112 to perform well, can maximixe Atk and still have enough points for 337 HP.
Anyone besides me, who don't necessarily use maximum speed but only enough to outspeed "any" common Pokemon who doesn't hold a scarf? 264!
A timid one you only needs 16 Ev in order to do its job, gives you points to almost maximize HP and Atk - or less Atk and more S/Def. An adamant one needs at least 112 to perform well, can maximixe Atk and still have enough points for 337 HP.
Anyone besides me, who don't necessarily use maximum speed but only enough to outspeed "any" common Pokemon who doesn't hold a scarf? 264!
I agree with this. If you're using a choice scarfer to revenge Pokemon, very frequently you're not using it to beat unboosted Pokemon, it's the ones with Dragon Dances under their belts that can otherwise waste your entire team. There are circumstances where this won't be needed (For instance, I have a very bulky hazer on my team that deals with speed boosters very well), but frequently these kinds of threats are exactly the reason why you need to run a scarf user in the first place.
I don't know why, but the mention of Scarf Flinchers seems to be scarce here. Scarf Flinchers were a defining force in Gen IV and I don't know what happened. Scarr Jirachi with Iron Head + Elemental punches still beats a large portion of the game (So many 4x Ice weak, 4x Fire weak, and Gyarados) and as most people expect to the the Specially Defensive set, it's very easy to nab a KO on alot in the meta game. It also provides a nice counter to mono-attack boosters like Swords Dancers and Nasty Plot Celebi. Scarf Togekiss is also unloved here for some reason or another. It's perfectly suited for the meta, bulky, fast, strong and a 60% percent flinch made it one of the best Scarfers in Gen IV. And of course, nothing could outspeed Scarf Shaymin-S in round 1.
TD;DR- Scarf Hax-ers need more attention, or you may get flinched to death by one
TD;DR- Scarf Hax-ers need more attention, or you may get flinched to death by one
I gave Scarf flinching a mention in the OP (well, just Jirachi but who else do you need?). Strangely enough, the only non-CM Jirachi I've been seeing are Body Slam + flinch, but for some reason I never saw them in Gen IV. Now, it's the opposite, where Scarf Jirachi has taken the back seat for Body Slam. Think about it; Body Slam on the switch, if it paralyses, go to town. They won't be sending in a Ghost so there's not much to be concerned over in that case. And if they do send in a Ghost, Jirachi has the bulk to take them on and hit them with a STAB Iron Head. I don't know why Togekiss isn't mentioned here besides the fact that it's SR weak. It can also Thunder Wave which is nice. Jirachi has overall better resistances than Togekiss and is naturally faster.
That depends on the purpose we are running scarfers.
Neutral speed Dragonite won't exceed 394 for example. Under some circumstances it won't be important to outrun Haxorus, because it is much easier phazed since it is quasi never mixed.
To outrun positive speed Dragonite a scarfer needs at least 286 plus a scarf. Since those guys are rarely seen and because it is only short hop from DD Haxorus, why not aiming for him?
294 is needed for adamant Haxorus. But honestly: I still think using more than that is a waste, because 324 is required, to keep up with jolly Haxorus. Most Pokemon won't even hit this number with maximum speed and as said, Haxous is much easier checked than Dragonite because its moveset is predictable - and because the jolly one has slightly less power.
Another good point I forgot to mention, with Scarf Haxorus, is a trick absorber.
Common trick users in OU are Rotom-W, Latios, Metagross, to lesser extent, Jirachi.
The only time where this is in the trick user's advantage, would be if Rotom-W was holding specs. Otherwise this would a huge advantage to Haxorus, in the case of Jirachi trading scarves, he has to switch, as his only option would be to trick again, potentially being KO'ed by EQ, meaning with their steel type switching out, you can fire off your outrage on whatever is coming in, severly denting it, or possibly KOing it. Same goes for metagross, however, Metagross more often carries a Band, meaning whatever gets hit on the switch will likely be KO'ed.
Rotom-W trading scarves with Haxorus forces the same guessing game, as Moldbreaker means it faces OHKO from EQ, or 56% chance of OHKO from Outrage. If the other player isn't packing Skarmory, they'll be hard pressed to find a pokemon who can switch in to both of those moves.
Same goes for Latios, if not tricking off specs, staying in to scout means trouble, as EQ puts a sizeable dent into it, while it is locked into a completely nonthreatening Trick, while Outrage spells certain doom.
Granted, any Choice user makes for a decent trick sponge, if not tricked with a clashing choice item (special user receiving a band/physical user receiving specs), Haxorus poses a HUGE threat with just two moves to any team that doesn't have a healthy Skarmory on deck.
Common trick users in OU are Rotom-W, Latios, Metagross, to lesser extent, Jirachi.
The only time where this is in the trick user's advantage, would be if Rotom-W was holding specs. Otherwise this would a huge advantage to Haxorus, in the case of Jirachi trading scarves, he has to switch, as his only option would be to trick again, potentially being KO'ed by EQ, meaning with their steel type switching out, you can fire off your outrage on whatever is coming in, severly denting it, or possibly KOing it. Same goes for metagross, however, Metagross more often carries a Band, meaning whatever gets hit on the switch will likely be KO'ed.
Rotom-W trading scarves with Haxorus forces the same guessing game, as Moldbreaker means it faces OHKO from EQ, or 56% chance of OHKO from Outrage. If the other player isn't packing Skarmory, they'll be hard pressed to find a pokemon who can switch in to both of those moves.
Same goes for Latios, if not tricking off specs, staying in to scout means trouble, as EQ puts a sizeable dent into it, while it is locked into a completely nonthreatening Trick, while Outrage spells certain doom.
Granted, any Choice user makes for a decent trick sponge, if not tricked with a clashing choice item (special user receiving a band/physical user receiving specs), Haxorus poses a HUGE threat with just two moves to any team that doesn't have a healthy Skarmory on deck.
Nope if you trick a choice item you can change moves after this even if you get another choice item. So you can no longer be locked into trick in Gen 5.
I'd rather trick Specs to a physical attacker or Band to a special attacker (or to Chansey, since that's pretty insulting). Most Trick-scarfers can make use of their Scarf even if they don't Trick it away. Obviously if they gain a Scarf, what's stopping them from tricking it to someone else? The best use of Trick absorbing is simply to scout for Choice users. There's almost zero risk, and your opponent has revealed their secret (they'll either Trick you or get locked into an attack).
Really??
That's pretty broken.. Why aren't more people abusing that? Thew few instances where someone has traded choice items with my Haxorus they switch out.
I guess just uncommon knowledge?
Well, obviously, you won't just throw your scarfer into the face of a Pokemon you THINK is scarf'ed and expect a trick to come. You do it when you know 'This Pokemon can learn trick, and is obviously wearing a scarf'. I figured that would be implied when I said 'trick abosrb'.
I'm not sure what you mean by zero risk, though.. switching something that doesn't necessarily take hits well, that wouldn't mind the item trade, in when the trick user attacked, means taking damage, and vic versa, switching say, SDef Jirachi into Latios on the turn it tricks off its Specs makes Jirachi far less functional.
Not trying to start a war or anything, I'm asking this in all seriousness, because if you know a low risk way to scout a trick user I want to know it lol
That's why I said "frequently" instead of "always". There's always exceptions. A lot of teams that run scarfers are running them specifically because they don't have defensive Pokemon that can take attacks from the likes of DD Haxorus, and in that case you're clearly going to be wanting to be able to outspeed it. It depends on the needs of your team. And if you're finding that you don't really need the extra speed, you have to wonder if you couldn't run something more potent than a Scarf user instead, seeing as most Scarf users aren't exactly brimming with utility beyond checking fast threats and tricking.
Speaking of tricking, the issue with trying to switch something like Haxorus into a Pokemon that knows trick is that it's usually not quite so risk free. You don't always know if they have specs or scarf, and further more if you predict wrong and the Pokemon carrying it isn't running Trick (Rotom-W is a great example, since a large number carry moves other than Trick) you risk taking a large hit to your own Scarfer. Haxorus doesn't take Rain boosted Hydro Pumps very well, for example.
The biggest difficulty with dealing with Trick users is that predicting them is so difficult, and that predicting wrong can have major consequences either way. The up side, as already mentioned, is that sometimes if you're good you can just alter your playstyle to take advantage of the item tricked to you (unless you're special and it's a band or something of course). For instance, when my Vaporeon gets tricked Specs or Scarf it isn't really a good thing, but her Scald is powerful enough in the rain I play under to make use of it to a fair degree.