Cloyster [BW2 Analysis] [QC: 0/3]

[Glacier]

"I will use Shell Smash and then hope you do not have a Latios, muhahaha!"

Cloyster (BW2 Revamp)

• QC: 0/3 [None]
• GP: 0/2 [None]
• Finished [No]

[Overview]

• Shell smash turns it into an excellent sweeper
• Can hurt most of tier
• Perfect neutral coverage with only three moves
• Can even get power-boost in rain
• Stealth Rock weakness
• Still outpaced by Choice Scarf Latios
• Bad Special Defense (Politoed's uninvested Surf OHKOs it)
• Weak to Mach Punch
• BW2 makes it harder to set-up now and Technician Breloom and more special attacks make it harder for Cloyster to keep up
• Still can wreck havoc teams with right support

[SET]
name: Shell Smash
move 1: Shell Smash
move 2: Icicle Spear
move 3: Rock Blast
move 4: Razor Shell / Hydro Pump / Ice Shard
item: White Herb / Focus Sash
ability: Skill Link
nature: Jolly / Naive
evs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe


[SET COMMENTS]

• Shell Smash gives it enough speed to outpace up to scarf latios w/ hp fire
• Icicle Spear is main move and gains STAB to destroy all non-resists
• Rock Blast is coverage gaining good accuracy and power
• Hydro Pump gains really nice power and makes use of the Special attack and combats steel and rock types
• Razor Shell is used on the physical side and is an alternative to KO Specially Defense Heatran and Tyranitar that can wall this set okayish
• White Herb takes away defense drops, but Life Orbs extra power is useful to destroy Ferrothorn without being risked with paralysis, you also can hit other pokemon harder, beware of recoil and Cloyster does not really need the extra power anyways
• adamant sux, it makes you get outsped by choice scarf things like infernape, nooooooo
• Focus Sash guaranteed set-up
• Ice Shard is great revenge killing tool and pairs best with LO, however you will be walled by steels, also making Magnezone an excellent teammate
• Razor Shell hurts special def jirachi more and is better paired with the higher attack but hydro pump = mixed = good to take out some other counters but you will be walled by something else then

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

• Rain-Support boosts its water-STAB through the roof
• Hidden Power Fire on sun teams
• Dual Screens
• Landorus-T uses Intimidate to counter fighting-types and is immune to electric-type attacks
• Celebi has good synergy with it and gets rid of its counters like Breloom and rotom-w
• Gothitelle traps and rids Scarf Latios and rids Fighting-types
• King's Rock to give moves 41% flinch chance
• Espeon
• Xatu
• Rapid Spin Support yea like forretress and tentacruel
• Ice Shard but misses out on steel-types
• Focus Sash to get garunteed SS but falls to priorty and sandstorm damage
• NeverMeltIce

[Other Options]

• Utility with Spikes and Rapid Spin but outclassed by even Donphan due to Cloysters pitiful SR weakness and bad SDef. Donphan even has Sturdy which is better
• Explosion
• Nothing else that is really viable
• Spike Cannon

[Checks and Counters]

• Technician Breloom can revenge with Mach Punch
• Scizor does about half
• Conkeldurr is a little weaker than Breloom
• Almost every decently strong Special Attack can destroy it, for example, Politoed OHKOes with surf in rain, no investment at all or does like 70%
  • Tentacruel
  • Rotom-W
• Choice Scarf Lati@s
• Choice Scarf Starmie
• Sableye with prioity burn
• Jellicent with WOW
• Quagsire but can lose to Hydro Pump
• keldeo
• empoleon

​

 

[Lavos]

someone please explain to me what place spike cannon has on this set. it basically shoots down cloyster's semblance of coverage and takes away from power, too. i don't understand why this is slashed at all, the one time i used spike cannon cloyster it served absolutely no purpose and i ended up ditching it for razor shell. there should be absolutely no question about this set. make it look like this:

name: Shell Smash
move 1: Shell Smash
move 2: Icicle Spear
move 3: Rock Blast
move 4: Razor Shell / Hydro Pump

i can go in depth about why razor shell is usually better than hydro pump if you want but i gotta go eat dinner

 

[Glacier]

someone please explain to me what place spike cannon has on this set. it basically shoots down cloyster's semblance of coverage and takes away from power, too. i don't understand why this is slashed at all, the one time i used spike cannon cloyster it served absolutely no purpose and i ended up ditching it for razor shell. there should be absolutely no question about this set. make it look like this:

name: Shell Smash
move 1: Shell Smash
move 2: Icicle Spear
move 3: Rock Blast
move 4: Razor Shell / Hydro Pump

i can go in depth about why razor shell is usually better than hydro pump if you want but i gotta go eat dinner

I have used Spike Cannon multiple times for better coverage and I hate the accuracy, but I will put it in AC

 

[Jukain]

Spike Cannon is absolutely useless in my experience; trust me, I've used basically every possible alternate coverage move for Cloyster.

or as lavos would want me to say: MOVE IT TO AC OO

also fix your spacing in the set, you shouldn't have lines in-between move 3 and move 4 and item and ability.

 

[ginganinja]

Hi

NO

Spike Cannon is not even AC worthy, when Rock Blast hits Gyarados, Jellicent, and Kyurem-B for solid damage. Move Spike Cannon to OO please.

Mention Focus Sash and Icicle Plate in AC pls.

 

[Glacier]

Spike Cannon is absolutely useless in my experience; trust me, I've used basically every possible alternate coverage move for Cloyster.

or as lavos would want me to say: MOVE IT TO AC OO

also fix your spacing in the set, you shouldn't have lines in-between move 3 and move 4 and item and ability.

sry i messed up, spike cannon = OO

Hi

NO

Spike Cannon is not even AC worthy, when Rock Blast hits Gyarados, Jellicent, and Kyurem-B for solid damage. Move Spike Cannon to OO please.

Mention Focus Sash and Icicle Plate in AC pls.

Spike Cannon in OO, Icicle Plate ---> NeverMeltIce (it sounds cooler) and Focus Sash

READY FOR QC CHECKS

 

[Lavos]

confirming that nevermeltice does in fact sound cooler than icicle plate

Remove Ninetales, Rock Blast smokes the crap out of it.

another reason to not use spike cannon!

 

[ginganinja]

can u expand on some of the mons you have listed in AC so we can discover why they are there (are they team-mates, if so why, whats the draw with Scarf Starmie etc etc)

I think Quagsire loses to Hydro Pump Cloyster so mention that, Keldeo isn't a bad mention in Checks and counters either,

Remove Ninetales, Rock Blast smokes the crap out of it.

 

[tehy]

So if i might ask:Which of the two natures should be used when, and why?

I was already curious to why Naive was slashed first when you've got Razor Shell slashed first, which is when I noticed that you never talk about the natures afterwards. You should probably talk a little about this, one bullet point.

 

[Glacier]

can u expand on some of the mons you have listed in AC so we can discover why they are there (are they team-mates, if so why, whats the draw with Scarf Starmie etc etc)

I think Quagsire loses to Hydro Pump Cloyster so mention that, Keldeo isn't a bad mention in Checks and counters either,

Remove Ninetales, Rock Blast smokes the crap out of it.

check

So if i might ask:Which of the two natures should be used when, and why?

I was already curious to why Naive was slashed first when you've got Razor Shell slashed first, which is when I noticed that you never talk about the natures afterwards. You should probably talk a little about this, one bullet point.

Well Naive is used with Hydro Pump, only a noob wouldn't know that

A speed-boosting nature makes sure it aint oupaced by terrakion, keldeo, latias, infernape, etc. with scarf and being revenged by them would spoil the point of this set

 

[Lavos]

that's a good point tehy, mention in a line that naive should be used with hydro pump and jolly with razor shell, and change the slashes so that the abilities match up with the moves. could confuse new people i guess (though it's pretty obvious if you know what natures do!)

 

[Glacier]

that's a good point tehy, mention in a line that naive should be used with hydro pump and jolly with razor shell, and change the slashes so that the abilities match up with the moves. could confuse new people i guess (though it's pretty obvious if you know what natures do!)

kk, did it

 

[tehy]

check



Well Naive is used with Hydro Pump, only a noob wouldn't know that

A speed-boosting nature makes sure it aint oupaced by terrakion, keldeo, latias, infernape, etc. with scarf and being revenged by them would spoil the point of this set

Edit: What i meant to say before accidentally clicking is

I don't mean to like belabor a point or go 'hah' or anything, but generally in analyses you shouldn't have this attitude.
There is a point at which this is true but it's not that point. (Fixed, Didn't see)
And btw, noobs read these analyses. It's a good part of why they exist.

Double edit: It's fine to have this attitude in real life but the point is, in analyses, you're supposed to assume that people don't have a certain level of knowledge. There is a point at which you have to assume they kind of know what you're talking about, but Natures aren't that point.

I have this attitude too, but I leave it at the door when I enter C&C, mostly because much of this content is meant for noobs.

 

[Glacier]

Edit: What i meant to say before accidentally clicking is

I don't mean to like belabor a point or go 'hah' or anything, but generally in analyses you shouldn't have this attitude.
There is a point at which this is true but it's not that point. (Fixed, Didn't see)
And btw, noobs read these analyses. It's a good part of why they exist.

Well every1 in my country have this attitude that's y I have it too. I don't find anything bad in my attitude from my perspective but you find it different and noob isn't a bad thing it mans new so I'm not calling them bad

 

[Lavos]

"noob" definitely has a negative connotation in the english language. let's keep it out of c&c.

 

[AccidentalGreed]

In other words, when you write the analysis, please keep it professional.

 

[jc104]

• shedinja though rare

I sincerely hope this is a joke. Not only is shedinja absolutely awful, enough that it should never be recommended as a counter to anything, but shedinja always dies to rock blast, and can hardly do much back.

Liepard is also probably not worth mentioning.

 

[ElectivireRocks]

The spikder/rapid spin set needs to be added.
It's not outclassed because it's both unexpected and it can actually hurt things, unlike Donphan, Tentacruel and Forretress.
Everyone is so prone in switching their scarfer/bulky water type into Cloyster that pulling a rapid spin or spikes/TS off is incredibly easy.

 

[Cherub Agent]

Perfect neutral coverage with only three moves

no, keldeo is an extremely common pokemon and resists all of cloysters moves. also outspeeds with a choice scarf. empoleon is also certainly ou viable and resists the moves

 

[BKC]

i don't think the defensive spiker deserves its own set, it's fine in OO.

the 108 scarfers that adamant shell smash fails to outrun at +2 should be terrakion & keldeo, not infernape.

i think ice shard deserves a main slash, it's very useful for techloom/scarf latios. it's also a generally good revenge killing option.

remove scarf from OO.

 

[AccidentalGreed]

Remove Shedinja from Checks and Counters since Rock Blast hits it through Wonder Guard and breaks its Focus Sash with the guaranteed multiple hit ratio.

 

[alexwolf]

Remove the part that says it OHKO-2HKOes the whole tier as it is not true. Keldeo, physically defensive Vaporeon, and standard Ferrothorn can all avoid a 2HKO from even LO Cloyster and OHKO back. With White Herb, which is the main option, the list becomes even larger, and Pokemon such as Rotom-W and Jirachi avoid the 2HKO and KO you back too. Also, intead of perfect neutral coverage with three moves change it to near-perfect neutral coverage, as Keldeo still walls Water-Rock-Ice.

I definitely agree with Ice Shard being on the main set, as it is very useful for Scarf Latios, Breloom, Venusaur in sun, Scarf Garchomp, Scarf Salamence, and Scarf Landorus(if you run Adamant), and to revenge kills dangerous dragons and RP Landorus when unboosted. The main issue is where to slash it, and based on this i want to talk about something else. Is Rock Blast really more important than the Water move of choice? To determine this let' see the targets of each move:

Rock Blast: Politoed, Rotom-W, Vaporeon, Starmie, Tentacruel, and Jellicent.

Assuming the most common item and nature of Cloyster, Jolly and White Herb, here is how much damage Rock Blast does to each of those Pokemon:

Hide

• +2 252 Atk Skill Link Cloyster Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Rotom-W: 210-250 (69.07 - 82.23%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
• +2 252 Atk Skill Link Cloyster Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Politoed: 195-230 (50.78 - 59.89%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
• +2 252 Atk Skill Link Cloyster Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 236+ Def Tentacruel: 215-255 (59.06 - 70.05%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after weather
• +2 252 Atk Skill Link Cloyster Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Vaporeon: 220-260 (47.51 - 56.15%) -- 17.19% chance to 2HKO
• +2 252 Atk Skill Link Cloyster Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 248 HP / 216+ Def Jellicent: 205-245 (50.86 - 60.79%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
• +2 252 Atk Skill Link Cloyster Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 36 Def Jellicent: 280-335 (69.3 - 82.92%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
• +2 252 Atk Skill Link Cloyster Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Starmie: 255-300 (97.7 - 114.94%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
• +2 252 Atk Skill Link Cloyster Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Starmie: 255-300 (78.7 - 92.59%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Razor Shell: Jirachi, Heatran, Scizor, Forretress, Lucario, Magnezone, Metagross, Mamoswine

Again here are the calcs of Jolly White Herb Razor Shell in rain vs those pokes:

Hide

• +2 252 Atk Cloyster Razor Shell vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Jirachi in rain: 297-351 (73.51 - 86.88%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
• +2 252 Atk Cloyster Razor Shell vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Scizor in rain: 297-351 (86.58 - 102.33%) -- 93.75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
• +2 252 Atk Cloyster Razor Shell vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Heatran in rain: 564-666 (146.49 - 172.98%) -- guaranteed OHKO
• +2 252 Atk Cloyster Razor Shell vs. 252 HP / 176+ Def Forretress in rain: 177-208 (50 - 58.75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
• +2 252 Atk Cloyster Razor Shell vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Lucario in rain: 397-468 (140.78 - 165.95%) -- guaranteed OHKO
• +2 252 Atk Cloyster Razor Shell vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Magnezone in rain: 262-310 (90.34 - 106.89%) -- 81.25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
• +2 252 Atk Cloyster Razor Shell vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Metagross in rain: 237-280 (65.1 - 76.92%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
• +2 252 Atk Cloyster Razor Shell vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mamoswine in rain: 710-836 (196.67 - 231.57%)

And if Cloyster uses Hydro Pump isntead of Razor Shell, Skarmory is taken care of as well.

Out of the Pokemon each move covers, it seems to me that the Pokemon covered by the Water-move are more important, more in numbers, more common, and more difficult to remove. For example out of all the Water-type that Rock Blast deals with, Politoed and Rotom-W are very easy to wear down, Vaporeon is very rare and seen almost only in Baton Pass teams or as a special attacking tank, which only leaves Tentacruel, Jellicent, and Starmie.

And while it is true that out of all the Steel-types that the water-move covers, most of them are easy to wear down and don't have reliable recovery, many of them are offensive Pokemon and not defensive, unlike the water-types, meaning that it is perfectly possible for those Pokemon to be kept safe in order to check Cloyster, unlike the Water-type Pokemon that will need to cover other Pokemon as well. For this reason i believe that the water-type move has more merit and should be put in the 3rd moveslot. Then, put Rock Blast in the final slot and slash Ice Shard with it.

Finally, i want to see some discussion about whether Life Orb or White Herb should be slashed first. The power output of +2 Cloyster with Life Orb is simply outsanding, even more when backed up by rain-boosted Hydro Pump and Ice Shard for common revenge killers (you bypass Breloom with Ice Shard, Mamoswine can't do shit to you with priority anyway, so the only issue left is Bullet Punch from Scizor and Extremespeed from Dragonite, making White Herb not so needed). Also, i want to see some more discussion about Ice Shard, and it being used with an Adamant/Naughty nature, as +2 LO Ice Shard deals impressive damage even to Pokemon neutral to it (50.92 - 60.18% to Scarf Terrakion) and serves as a perfect revenge killing tool.

 

[Glacier]

I sincerely hope this is a joke. Not only is shedinja absolutely awful, enough that it should never be recommended as a counter to anything, but shedinja always dies to rock blast, and can hardly do much back.

Liepard is also probably not worth mentioning.

Well, I added Liepard becuase it is getting an analysis soon, but wutev. Changed. thx

The spikder/rapid spin set needs to be added.
It's not outclassed because it's both unexpected and it can actually hurt things, unlike Donphan, Tentacruel and Forretress.
Everyone is so prone in switching their scarfer/bulky water type into Cloyster that pulling a rapid spin or spikes/TS off is incredibly easy.

Read BKC's post

no, keldeo is an extremely common pokemon and resists all of cloysters moves. also outspeeds with a choice scarf. empoleon is also certainly ou viable and resists the moves

Good point

i don't think the defensive spiker deserves its own set, it's fine in OO.

the 108 scarfers that adamant shell smash fails to outrun at +2 should be terrakion & keldeo, not infernape.

i think ice shard deserves a main slash, it's very useful for techloom/scarf latios. it's also a generally good revenge killing option.

remove scarf from OO.

K. I really don't like RP, it is outclassed a lot and there are A LOT of special attackers

Remove Shedinja from Checks and Counters since Rock Blast hits it through Wonder Guard and breaks its Focus Sash with the guaranteed multiple hit ratio.

Okay.

Remove the part that says it OHKO-2HKOes the whole tier as it is not true. Keldeo, physically defensive Vaporeon, and standard Ferrothorn can all avoid a 2HKO from even LO Cloyster and OHKO back. With White Herb, which is the main option, the list becomes even larger, and Pokemon such as Rotom-W and Jirachi avoid the 2HKO and KO you back too. Also, intead of perfect neutral coverage with three moves change it to near-perfect neutral coverage, as Keldeo still walls Water-Rock-Ice.

I definitely agree with Ice Shard being on the main set, as it is very useful for Scarf Latios, Breloom, Venusaur in sun, Scarf Garchomp, Scarf Salamence, and Scarf Landorus(if you run Adamant), and to revenge kills dangerous dragons and RP Landorus when unboosted. The main issue is where to slash it, and based on this i want to talk about something else. Is Rock Blast really more important than the Water move of choice? To determine this let' see the targets of each move:

Rock Blast: Politoed, Rotom-W, Vaporeon, Starmie, Tentacruel, and Jellicent.

Assuming the most common item and nature of Cloyster, Jolly and White Herb, here is how much damage Rock Blast does to each of those Pokemon:

Hide

• +2 252 Atk Skill Link Cloyster Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Rotom-W: 210-250 (69.07 - 82.23%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
• +2 252 Atk Skill Link Cloyster Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Politoed: 195-230 (50.78 - 59.89%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
• +2 252 Atk Skill Link Cloyster Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 236+ Def Tentacruel: 215-255 (59.06 - 70.05%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after weather
• +2 252 Atk Skill Link Cloyster Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Vaporeon: 220-260 (47.51 - 56.15%) -- 17.19% chance to 2HKO
• +2 252 Atk Skill Link Cloyster Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 248 HP / 216+ Def Jellicent: 205-245 (50.86 - 60.79%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
• +2 252 Atk Skill Link Cloyster Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 36 Def Jellicent: 280-335 (69.3 - 82.92%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
• +2 252 Atk Skill Link Cloyster Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Starmie: 255-300 (97.7 - 114.94%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
• +2 252 Atk Skill Link Cloyster Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Starmie: 255-300 (78.7 - 92.59%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Razor Shell: Jirachi, Heatran, Scizor, Forretress, Lucario, Magnezone, Metagross, Mamoswine

Again here are the calcs of Jolly White Herb Razor Shell in rain vs those pokes:

Hide

• +2 252 Atk Cloyster Razor Shell vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Jirachi in rain: 297-351 (73.51 - 86.88%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
• +2 252 Atk Cloyster Razor Shell vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Scizor in rain: 297-351 (86.58 - 102.33%) -- 93.75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
• +2 252 Atk Cloyster Razor Shell vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Heatran in rain: 564-666 (146.49 - 172.98%) -- guaranteed OHKO
• +2 252 Atk Cloyster Razor Shell vs. 252 HP / 176+ Def Forretress in rain: 177-208 (50 - 58.75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
• +2 252 Atk Cloyster Razor Shell vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Lucario in rain: 397-468 (140.78 - 165.95%) -- guaranteed OHKO
• +2 252 Atk Cloyster Razor Shell vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Magnezone in rain: 262-310 (90.34 - 106.89%) -- 81.25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
• +2 252 Atk Cloyster Razor Shell vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Metagross in rain: 237-280 (65.1 - 76.92%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
• +2 252 Atk Cloyster Razor Shell vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mamoswine in rain: 710-836 (196.67 - 231.57%)

And if Cloyster uses Hydro Pump isntead of Razor Shell, Skarmory is taken care of as well.

Out of the Pokemon each move covers, it seems to me that the Pokemon covered by the Water-move are more important, more in numbers, more common, and more difficult to remove. For example out of all the Water-type that Rock Blast deals with, Politoed and Rotom-W are very easy to wear down, Vaporeon is very rare and seen almost only in Baton Pass teams or as a special attacking tank, which only leaves Tentacruel, Jellicent, and Starmie.

And while it is true that out of all the Steel-types that the water-move covers, most of them are easy to wear down and don't have reliable recovery, many of them are offensive Pokemon and not defensive, unlike the water-types, meaning that it is perfectly possible for those Pokemon to be kept safe in order to check Cloyster, unlike the Water-type Pokemon that will need to cover other Pokemon as well. For this reason i believe that the water-type move has more merit and should be put in the 3rd moveslot. Then, put Rock Blast in the final slot and slash Ice Shard with it.

Finally, i want to see some discussion about whether Life Orb or White Herb should be slashed first. The power output of +2 Cloyster with Life Orb is simply outsanding, even more when backed up by rain-boosted Hydro Pump and Ice Shard for common revenge killers (you bypass Breloom with Ice Shard, Mamoswine can't do shit to you with priority anyway, so the only issue left is Bullet Punch from Scizor and Extremespeed from Dragonite, making White Herb not so needed). Also, i want to see some more discussion about Ice Shard, and it being used with an Adamant/Naughty nature, as +2 LO Ice Shard deals impressive damage even to Pokemon neutral to it (50.92 - 60.18% to Scarf Terrakion) and serves as a perfect revenge killing tool.

Added Ice Shard in slot 4, did some testing and it works best there, rock blast is too boss

 

[MatchMaster]

I think Ferrothorn should be mentioned as a hard counter. As long as it doesn't switch into a +2 Icicle Spear, it can @ 2HKO with power whip. (I think)

 

[Glacier]

I think Ferrothorn should be mentioned as a hard counter. As long as it doesn't switch into a +2 Icicle Spear, it can @ 2HKO with power whip. (I think)

Ferrothorn is pretty much "almost die or die" + "maybe destroy or status" counter. It takes like 88% damage and usually since it is used late-game, it won't be living. LO even OHKOes it. Hidden Power [Fire] variants are common on sun teams. It is decent but not good enough. Use Rotom-W, Empoleon, etc., there better as they resist there STAB.