Wasn't Tentacruel rejected for an analysis anyways?
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Cloyster
- Thread starter trc
- Start date
Mentions of Tentacruel, Forretress, Jirachi, and Jellicent should be removed as they have all been rejected.
also why is keldeo not mentioned in c&c ;;;;;
edit: does it outspeed Deoxys-S, scarfchomp, or scarf terrakion at +2 with jolly? These are much more relevant than what you have listed, and if it doesn't outspeed these then I would just remove the mention of Jolly entirely. The only relevant +1 base 100 in OU is DD charizard X, which will never have a boost up against a +2 cloyster and usually runs adamant nowadays anyway.
also why is keldeo not mentioned in c&c ;;;;;
edit: does it outspeed Deoxys-S, scarfchomp, or scarf terrakion at +2 with jolly? These are much more relevant than what you have listed, and if it doesn't outspeed these then I would just remove the mention of Jolly entirely. The only relevant +1 base 100 in OU is DD charizard X, which will never have a boost up against a +2 cloyster and usually runs adamant nowadays anyway.
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It is mentioned, but perhaps it should be put in its own category, as it isn't particularly bulky.
Minor spelling error: "Latios is particularly good as sit counters the bothersome Keldeo". Sit should be it I reckon.
TRC, don't take this the wrong way, but I'm going to reject Cloyster.
I used to support it, but metagame shifts along with a new standard for QC rejection have changed my opinion on it. Yes, it's quite strong after a Shell Smash boost, but (a) getting the boost and (b) getting past Cloyster's many checks afterwards is simply too difficult and warrants too much support for Cloyster to truly be effective. A poor defensive typing alongside a Stealth Rock weakness PLUS the Defense- and Special Defense- lowering effect of Shell Smash makes Cloyster a risk, sometimes a liability, to bring into battle and attempt to boost with. High defense is nice but it's literally the only cushion to have to rely on, which is barely worth anything when you're so vulnerable. Pokemon like Ferrothorn, Scizor, Rotom-W, Mega Venusaur, and Aegislash are simply far too common and far too hard to dispose of or even weaken, considering Cloyster needs them at rather low health before it can hope to get past them. Even if Cloyster manages to weaken one of those Pokemon before it goes down, there are far better Pokemon for this job that don't require such precarious setup (see: wallbreaker). Priority is extremely common, and while Cloyster resists Ice Shard and Aqua Jet, there are other ones like Extreme Speed, Mach Punch, Brave Bird, and Bullet Punch that make it extremely difficult to survive. And to top it all off, Deoxys-S and Thundurus are basically insta-death for Cloyster no matter what health it's sitting at. While Ice Shard lets it get past them, it completely loses the ability to hit many important Steel-types, thus becoming more useless than it was before.
I'm sorry man, but Cloyster's gotta go.
QC Rejected 1/3
I used to support it, but metagame shifts along with a new standard for QC rejection have changed my opinion on it. Yes, it's quite strong after a Shell Smash boost, but (a) getting the boost and (b) getting past Cloyster's many checks afterwards is simply too difficult and warrants too much support for Cloyster to truly be effective. A poor defensive typing alongside a Stealth Rock weakness PLUS the Defense- and Special Defense- lowering effect of Shell Smash makes Cloyster a risk, sometimes a liability, to bring into battle and attempt to boost with. High defense is nice but it's literally the only cushion to have to rely on, which is barely worth anything when you're so vulnerable. Pokemon like Ferrothorn, Scizor, Rotom-W, Mega Venusaur, and Aegislash are simply far too common and far too hard to dispose of or even weaken, considering Cloyster needs them at rather low health before it can hope to get past them. Even if Cloyster manages to weaken one of those Pokemon before it goes down, there are far better Pokemon for this job that don't require such precarious setup (see: wallbreaker). Priority is extremely common, and while Cloyster resists Ice Shard and Aqua Jet, there are other ones like Extreme Speed, Mach Punch, Brave Bird, and Bullet Punch that make it extremely difficult to survive. And to top it all off, Deoxys-S and Thundurus are basically insta-death for Cloyster no matter what health it's sitting at. While Ice Shard lets it get past them, it completely loses the ability to hit many important Steel-types, thus becoming more useless than it was before.
I'm sorry man, but Cloyster's gotta go.
QC Rejected 1/3
QC Rejected 2/3
:[
wutevs
just don't use untrue claims in an argument, Cloyster OHKOes megasaur at +2, same with Ferro, rotom needs like 5% or so. it also doesn't mind priority as much as you say, as it's defense is p big.
the only points I concede to is the difficulty to setup, the annoying inability to get past Aegislash, and a shitty spdef.
reject 3/3 :[
wutevs
just don't use untrue claims in an argument, Cloyster OHKOes megasaur at +2, same with Ferro, rotom needs like 5% or so. it also doesn't mind priority as much as you say, as it's defense is p big.
the only points I concede to is the difficulty to setup, the annoying inability to get past Aegislash, and a shitty spdef.
reject 3/3 :[
No.
+2 252+ Atk Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Thick Fat Mega Venusaur: 240-280 (65.9 - 76.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 215-260 (61 - 73.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Cloyster Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 170-200 (55.9 - 65.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. -1 4 HP / 0 Def Cloyster: 211-249 (87.1 - 102.8%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
0 Atk Technician Mega Scizor Bullet Punch vs. -1 4 HP / 0 Def Cloyster: 84-99 (34.7 - 40.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. -1 4 HP / 0 Def Cloyster: 88-104 (36.3 - 42.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Conkeldurr Mach Punch vs. -1 4 HP / 0 Def Cloyster: 134-162 (55.3 - 66.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Thick Fat Mega Venusaur: 240-280 (65.9 - 76.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 215-260 (61 - 73.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Cloyster Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 170-200 (55.9 - 65.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. -1 4 HP / 0 Def Cloyster: 211-249 (87.1 - 102.8%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
0 Atk Technician Mega Scizor Bullet Punch vs. -1 4 HP / 0 Def Cloyster: 84-99 (34.7 - 40.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. -1 4 HP / 0 Def Cloyster: 88-104 (36.3 - 42.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Conkeldurr Mach Punch vs. -1 4 HP / 0 Def Cloyster: 134-162 (55.3 - 66.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Nevermelt Ice / Life Orb would help the first calcs out, although I'm not sure if they'd turn to OHKOs.