Competitor and Arceus

[Jumpman16]

Er... what in my post were you referring to?

lol, my entire point there was that since we can't even be sure that all arceus aren't 4/6/18/5/27/20 and Lonely, then how can we include it in a simulator with any accuracy?

Actually, he was all for Arceus. He was debating it with Obi for quite a while on the chat, and he posted a link, which basically said that ShoddyBattle was using the game's coding to prove what was legitimate or not, not the developers or publishers. He instated the 'Extended Game Clause' just to end the controversy.

that doesn't make him right about arceus's legitimacy, because for the billionth time, there is not yet a way to legitimately obtain the azure flute that is necessary to get arceus

 

[umbarsc]

@Jumpman

lol, my entire point there was that since we can't even be sure that all arceus aren't 4/6/18/5/27/20 and Lonely, then how can we include it in a simulator with any accuracy?

Go find one that has been released, prove certain IVs that exist, and use it on a simulator. After all, that's the only way to prove the legitimacy of something, and thus is a necessary measure.

that doesn't make him right about arceus's legitimacy, because for the billionth time, there is not yet a way to legitimately obtain the azure flute that is necessary to get arceus

Actually, that was in response to you saying that you couldn't speak for Colin.

And for the billionth time, this thread is not about Azure Flute. It is possible to obtain Arceus without hacking in-game, you just play your Azure Flute at Mt. Coronet. However, since Azure Flute isn't possible to get without hacking, make your own thread, and I fully support you in banning that particular item on simulators.

 

[Cathy]

Obi's position is rock solid and I have always agreed that it was solid.

I just did not agree with entirely making Arceus unusable, since that seemed to remove features from the program. The "Extended Game Clause" is a solution that should be satisfying everybody. Whether you agree with using Arceus or not, it cannot be obtained within the framework that Nintendo has set up, and that is the framework that defines what we are "simulating", so the game with no Arceus (and no event berries) is the base game. Sure, we can improve that, but by doing so we are extending the game, hence the name of the clause.

 

[obi]

The only difference is that in skarmbliss, thats your opinion unfair, and arceus, thats your opinion on the realm of legitimacy. Some people are black and white, some people have gray (grey?) areas, and i just think it is unfair that any person who's opinion is that arceus is legit, or rather semi-legit (and iirc, everyone is entitled to their own opinion), is forced to give into the other person's opinion (that arceus is completely illegal, if its hard to follow). Well, they're forced to give in if they ever have any hope to battle the other person that is. Despite this compromise of the extended game clause, freedoms are still lost, and that is what bugs me.

if i were someone i would make ATK, 9999 SP.ATK, 9999 DEF, 9999 SP.DEF, 9999 SPEED, 9999 HP-9999/9999 The Name would be Firebot Steel/Fire Fissure Unlimited PP Mind Reader Unlimited PP never Miss KOBOT Unlimited PP Shadow Ball Unlimited PP

Why can't I use this? It's unfair that just because your opinion is that Firebot is illegitimate means I can't use it. >=(

Cause come on, obi, what if some little kid worshipped you for your battling and it was his dream to one day battle you. So one day he sees you on competitor and wants to battle you, but you have the extended game clause on so he cant use arceus, which is the centerpiece of his team. But to him, arceus is legit. So what, your opinion is better than his then and it sucks to be him if he wont cooperate? so much for the fun in battling, then.

And if my position were reversed, you could just say "Cause come on, obi, what if some little kid worshipped you for your battling and it was his dream to one day battle you. So one day he sees you on competitor and wants to battle you, but you have arceus on so he loses miserably because hes never heard of arceus, because you can only get it with an action replay. he then thinks that you are a cheater and you destroy his faith in humanity. so much for the fun in battling, then."

 

[umbarsc]

if i were someone i would make ATK, 9999 SP.ATK, 9999 DEF, 9999 SP.DEF, 9999 SPEED, 9999 HP-9999/9999 The Name would be Firebot Steel/Fire Fissure Unlimited PP Mind Reader Unlimited PP never Miss KOBOT Unlimited PP Shadow Ball Unlimited PP

Why can't I use this? It's unfair that just because your opinion is that Firebot is illegitimate means I can't use it. >=(

Show me how to get that in-game (hacking indirectly is fine), and you have yourself a case. Notice, INdirectly, meaning you can't summon one up in your PC.

This is why I feel Arceus should be legit. You don't have to hack Arceus to get it, you only have to hack the item. Yes, at one point or another you have to hack to get Arceus. But that's indirect hacking.

 

[obi]

OK, I just use a code to encounter such a Pokemon. There are tons of "encounter" codes which is indirect hacking, but I don't see how that is somehow good. Just because you have to take an extra step suddenly doesn't make it legit. It's like money laundering. Just because you have different bills doesn't mean you didn't steal or counterfeit the original money.

 

[umbarsc]

At this point, I should be saying "Ask yourself this: can it be potentially caught without outside devices if they are not Nintendo-endorsed", but then you'd say "What if I said Nintendo was going to release a max stat poke tomorrow?" or something like that.

I don't see what the big deal is against hacking in the first place. Hacking is not a bad thing, and just because you hack at one point or another on the road to get something, doesn't mean the outcome is illegitimate.

 

[McCloudDash]

if i were someone i would make ATK, 9999 SP.ATK, 9999 DEF, 9999 SP.DEF, 9999 SPEED, 9999 HP-9999/9999 The Name would be Firebot Steel/Fire Fissure Unlimited PP Mind Reader Unlimited PP never Miss KOBOT Unlimited PP Shadow Ball Unlimited PP

Why can't I use this? It's unfair that just because your opinion is that Firebot is illegitimate means I can't use it. >=(

Yea, except for the fact that right now i have no idea what you're talking about. oh wait, that sounds familiar..

Jesus h. christ, obi, either you really dont care about anything that i have to say at all, or you've gone insane. Do you realize that you just made up something that isnt even sane? cause i dont think you do. I think its absolutely safe to say that if you're gonna hack the goddamn game coding itself to make max stats above 999, then you shouldnt even be playing this goddamn game on this site, or any site for that matter, because if you think that an abomination like that would be even close to battle worthy, then...

stop using insane arguements, is pretty much the entire idea here, of what im trying to say. For all of your merits in forming an arguement, your counterarguement is..that?? good god..

Maybe its best to keep the arguement on..oh, i dunno..arceus, you think?? Cause im pretty sure you just compared arceus to firebot. (not even a pokemon?...not even anything!)

And if my position were reversed, you could just say "Cause come on, obi, what if some little kid worshipped you for your battling and it was his dream to one day battle you. So one day he sees you on competitor and wants to battle you, but you have arceus on so he loses miserably because hes never heard of arceus, because you can only get it with an action replay. he then thinks that you are a cheater and you destroy his faith in humanity. so much for the fun in battling, then."

And where did this kid find a program like competitor? surely, he must have some knowledge of pokemon, maybe belongs to a battling site, or at the very least talked about the program with a friend. Now, first of all, the dream of every "inexperienced battler", ill call them, is to use ubers 'cause they're so cool looking and strong, especially the action-replay-only ones to show them off to their friends. Im not even gonna go into that though, because that would be, lets see, an entire arguement against this reverse-logic. But if you play this game, its your responsibility as a battler to know like, what exists in this game maybe? thats like starting the game with chimchar, playing through the entire game, and then not knowing who the hell torterra is when your friend battles you. Uh, he's in the game, how is it your friend's fault that you dont know it? And moreso, if you're an inexperienced battler its even more your responsibility to know everything that exists, because, being inexperienced, you dont even know what semi-legit is, so anybody's open to use anything against you, things far worse than Arceus, im thinking maybe a wonderguard spiritomb? you know? "AR? why sure!, i use it on all my guys, all of my friends do too. what the hell does illegitimate mean?"

So pretty much, no, what you said makes absolutely no sense.

wanna argue that the kid wasnt an inexperienced battler? Cause i dont see how that helps you. that just means that the kid was experienced and stupid, if he's never even seen a simple pokedex listing of all of the new pokemon in diamond/pearl.

It's like money laundering. Just because you have different bills doesn't mean you didn't steal or counterfeit the original money.

I forgot that we're gonna get arrested if we use a fast egg hatch code. Completely forgot about that, you are right, time saving in pokemon compares up to terrible crimes in the real world almost perfectly, you have opened my eyes.

 

[Dragontamer]

This topic has moved on to a more interesting point which I feel is worth debating. Thus, I'm willing to rejoin if yall don't mind.

At this point, I should be saying "Ask yourself this: can it be potentially caught without outside devices if they are not Nintendo-endorsed", but then you'd say "What if I said Nintendo was going to release a max stat poke tomorrow?" or something like that.

I don't see what the big deal is against hacking in the first place. Hacking is not a bad thing, and just because you hack at one point or another on the road to get something, doesn't mean the outcome is illegitimate.

People are not against hacking. People simply feel that hacking makes the game non-canon. No one here is "for" or "against" hacking, they just want to play in the real canon universe of pokemon. Of course, all this does is turn the argument into "does hacking make the game non-canon", which IMO, is answered with a simple "yes it does". So moving on...

All works that are considered canon must be done or sanctioned by the owner of the fictional universe. For example, all fan-fiction is considered non-canon, because the fan-fiction was not done by the owner of the universe. Further, not everything done by the ownder is considered canon. That is, we can all agree that Pokemon canon must be done by Nintendo and The Pokemon Company. However, not everything they do is considered canon. No matter how much Pikachu can try, it should have never beaten Brock's Onix with thundershock. Even if the sprinkler system went off. Even though that event was official, it isn't necessarily canon.

That said, hacking devices are clearly non-Nintendo sources. Technically speaking, you violate your warrenty as soon as you use AR on your DS. Therefore, because of the use of non-Nintendo items, the universe where Arceus exists currently is non-canon. On the other hand, other external devices like the NYPC giveaways are officially Nintendo and thus may be considered canon.

Similarly, while Nintendo did create the glitch, the shaymin issue is a separate issue when we look at it from a canon vs non-canon perspective. Indeed, it can be seen as a contradiction in the universe or not. Therefore, the Shaymin glitch issue is different all together.

But without a doubt, Arceus requires you to enter the non-canon universe of Pokemon by use of an Action Replay, a non-nintendo device. The only way to get Arceus is through the use of a (currently) non-canon item, the Azure Flute. Because the method to get Arceus requires a non-canon item, therefore Arceus itself is non-canon until there is an official way to get the Azure Flute.

The concept of what is and what isn't canon is always an issue in fictional universes. But in this case, there is no contradiction if we take only the game to be canon, and leave the Shaymin glitch issue for a future debate. Arceus is clearly not canon as no glitch exists to actually get Arceus, and the only way to get Arceus is to use a non-canon device --- the Action Replay --- which is clearly not condoned by Nintendo as it violates your warrenty. Therefore, the Azure Flute is non-canon, meaning any method of obtaining Arceus through the Azure Flute is non-canon as well.

Yea, except for the fact that right now i have no idea what you're talking about. oh wait, that sounds familiar..

Jesus h. christ, obi, either you really dont care about anything that i have to say at all, or you've gone insane. Do you realize that you just made up something that isnt even sane? cause i dont think you do. I think its absolutely safe to say that if you're gonna hack the goddamn game coding itself to make max stats above 999, then you shouldnt even be playing this goddamn game on this site, or any site for that matter, because if you think that an abomination like that would be even close to battle worthy, then...

stop using insane arguements, is pretty much the entire idea here, of what im trying to say. For all of your merits in forming an arguement, your counterarguement is..that?? good god..

Maybe its best to keep the arguement on..oh, i dunno..arceus, you think?? Cause im pretty sure you just compared arceus to firebot. (not even a pokemon?...not even anything!)

The use of insane arguments is a logically valid technique when applied correctly. The official name is reductio ad absurdum. The proper technique is obviously to show that following someone's argument and/or premises allows them to deduce insane or absurd arguments and is therefore incorrect. Both sides of this debate have properly used this technique.

The proper way to counter this argument is to show that your own argument either cannot be reduced to absurdity, or that the opponent's argument does not follow.

And where did this kid find a program like competitor? surely, he must have some knowledge of pokemon, maybe belongs to a battling site, or at the very least talked about the program with a friend. Now, first of all, the dream of every "inexperienced battler", ill call them, is to use ubers 'cause they're so cool looking and strong, especially the action-replay-only ones to show them off to their friends. Im not even gonna go into that though, because that would be, lets see, an entire arguement against this reverse-logic. But if you play this game, its your responsibility as a battler to know like, what exists in this game maybe?

I don't believe Arceus is listed in an official Pokedex yet. The only real way to know about it is to hack the game, or to recieve information from a player / site who has hacked the game (like Serebii).

Considering that it is currently impossible to get Arceus, or even know about Arceus from Nintendo sources (to my knowledge, correct me if I'm wrong of course), then arguably, an excellent battler can exist without knowing of the existance of Arceus.

 

[McCloudDash]

You raise several valid points, save for having no original counterarguement against, heaven forbid, insanity, however;

I don't believe Arceus is listed in an official Pokedex yet. The only real way to know about it is to hack the game, or to recieve information from a player / site who has hacked the game (like Serebii).

Considering that it is currently impossible to get Arceus, or even know about Arceus from Nintendo sources (to my knowledge, correct me if I'm wrong of course), then arguably, an excellent battler can exist without knowing of the existance of Arceus.

This might be true in a perfect universe, but that we dont live in. When someone gets serious about, well any game when you think about it, but about this game, they learn all that they can to be the best that they can. Even if they were to miss an entire pokemon completely and learn nothing even about his existance, by some odd chance, he still cannot blame the other battler for his own lack of knowledge.

For the record, we aren't dicussing mythical "firebot" pokemon, we are discussing arceus. Prove that you can hack an outside influence on firebot to make his stats 9999, much like you can hack an outside influence in the azure flute, then you compare the two, but until then those two are a completely different level of hacking, for just that undeniable reason. there's your counter-counterarguement, sheesh.

 

[obi]

I forgot that we're gonna get arrested if we use a fast egg hatch code. Completely forgot about that, you are right, time saving in pokemon compares up to terrible crimes in the real world almost perfectly, you have opened my eyes.

This is what's called an analogy. No, the situation is not identical, but the logical connection between your premise and conclusion and my premise and conclusion is the same. Your argument for why the logic doesn't hold in my situation but does in yours is apparently "nuh uh!". You are saying that by taking an extra step, it suddenly becomes legitimate. This is identical to taking an extra step in counterfeiting (money laundering) and thinking that means you never counterfeited. The consequences of being caught at counterfeiting may be imprisonment, whereas there are little-to-no consequences for hacking, but that is irrelevant. I am not making a moral argument here.

So this newbie who looks up to me and has only the dream to battle me, but can't because I don't fight Arceus, is also going to have researched everything thoroughly online? If he really looks up to me that much, he should have found this thread or the thread on Arceus that I started where I explain my position. You have created an impossible player!

 

[McCloudDash]

So this newbie who looks up to me and has only the dream to battle me, but can't because I don't fight Arceus, is also going to have researched everything thoroughly online? If he really looks up to me that much, he should have found this thread or the thread on Arceus that I started where I explain my position. You have created an impossible player!

maybe so, but you have created an impossible pokemon. At least my impossible player had some thought put into him.

and who ever said that he had to agree with any of your views? I merely said he looks up to your battling. I havent created an impossible player, because i have not created the perfect fanboy, so dont assume.

 

[obi]

maybe so, but you have created an impossible pokemon. At least my impossible player had some thought put into him.

Arceus is just as impossible as Firebot (that is to say, impossible without an AR, and possible with one).

and who ever said that he had to agree with any of your views? I merely said he looks up to your battling. I havent created an impossible player, because i have not created the perfect fanboy, so dont assume.

Well, if he really looks up to me that much, and he looks up information that much, then he should both know and understand my position, so at that point, it's his own fault. However, the entire appeal to the pity of a hypothetical newbie is irrelevant, because I"m not making an emotional argument, either, but a logical one. Your argument also falls because I clause OHKOs, DT, and several other things, so unless you think we should play entirely clauseless, this person may violate one of those clauses. If you do advocate clauselessness, then I could just say that such a player would get frustrated by all these things that he doesn't want to use and quit.

Also read my post before this one, I edited in some more stuff.

 

[Dragontamer]

You raise several valid points, save for having no original counterarguement against, heaven forbid, insanity, however;

Not insanity, but reduction to absurdity. Insanity is the complete opposite of logic, and the reduction to absurdity is a fundamental prinicple of logic and reasoning. Trust me on this: you cannot win the debate of whether or not this technique is valid or not. It is a valid technique which much of modern mathematics and philosophy relies on. It is essentially a formal proof by contrapositive. A demonstration of a contradiction or an absurdity through the use of the same argument and premises.

Ironically, you claim Obi's method of proof to be "insane", yet this itself is invoking a claim to a reduction to absurdity. If you feel it to be insane, then demonstrate it as opposed to simply asserting it.

I will note that I have spent the last few minutes trying to work it out in formal logic (as a proof of contrapositive), and as far as my own personal definitions are concerned I was not able to do it. Just a single step doesn't work out >_> However, an invalid argument does not mean the claim is false (and just because I couldn't work it out doesn't mean that it is invalid). I do believe Arceus is an illegal (or at least, a non-canon) pokemon and will setup a semi-formal proof here.

1. The canon universe of Pokemon may be ill-defined currently, but one certainty is that every canon pokemon must be from a canon source. Again, this is ill-defined as well (are glitches a canon source?) but it is all I need for this argument. I'll leave the other issues to future debate.

2. The Action Replay device is not a canon device or source in Nintendo nor for The Pokemon Company. (You violate your warrenty on the DS and on your game pack, and neither company offers support for AR.)

3. The only known way to get Arceus is through the Azure Flute, and The only way to get the Azure Flute right now is through the non-canon device Action Replay. I should note, I feel this is the "weakest link" of my argument, because as soon as an in-game glitch is found that allows Arceus to be captured, or as soon as Nintendo releases Arceus, then this point will no longer hold.

4. Therefore, the only known way to get Arceus is through a non-canon device, and thus Arceus is non-canon.

 

[Kijin]

There is a legitimate way to get Arceus. Go to Mt. Coronet, where you get Palkia and Dialga, and play your Azure Flute.

You'd be correct, however, if you said that there was no legit way to get the Azure Flute. Since that's the case, I declare we ban the Azure Flute on Shoddy.

A. There is no legitimate way to get Azure Flute.
B. You need the Azure Flute to get Arceus.
C. If there is no legitimate way to get the Azure Flute, which is required to get Arceus, there is no legitimate way to get Arceus.

Well, that depends on how "legitimate" is defined. And it seems that most of those definitions (the reasonable ones, at least) would also exclude Shaymin and possibly some other stuff.

If you're going to tell me that I am possibly wrong based on how something is defined, you might do well to define it yourself to show me in what way I'm wrong.
I've outlined what I mean in response to the quote above.

I doubt any of the NYPC pokemon have maxed IV's.

What this has to do with Arceus and use of other event Pokemon escapes me.
It is entirely possible a 31/31/31/31/31/31 Wish Salamence exists somewhere. It is impossible that a legitimately acquired Arceus exists in-game.

So its possible that Arceus would be illegitimate on the cartridge and completely legit on the simulator. They are entirely different programs that are produced by entirely different programmers.

There's already a clause for both Competitor and Shoddy allowing or disallowing Arceus. No such clause exists in cartridge-based battle. So while the issue of whether or not Arceus is legitimate for simulation is mooted by the challenger's allowing/disallowing of the Arceus clause, the only reasonable discussion to be had is on cartridge competition. Because there is no way to acquire Arceus without the use of Action Replay or any similar hacking device at this time, it is not legitimate.

 

[Pneuma]

I'm pretty sure Blaziken was being sardonic. Of course a lack of Azure Flute implies a lack of Arceus.

Is McCloud done calling us all insane for using logic yet?

 

[McCloudDash]

I'm pretty sure Blaziken was being sardonic. Of course a lack of Azure Flute implies a lack of Arceus.

Is McCloud done calling us all insane for using logic yet?

I was actually referring to obi in that one case. and by the way i was asleep...

And im pretty much done debating. My opinion is a moral one, which is never going to win (or lose, if i have the energy) in a logical debate. Plus, at this point, the only thing thats left is "is arceus semi-legit or not", because of the whole indirect hacking thing. obviously my opinion is that he is semi-legit, and yours is that he is illegal. I cant really say that my opinion is better than yours.

 

[Pneuma]

A moral argument has absolutely no place in a logical argument so it's best to bow out. And semi-legit is a fake term made up by people who don't want to be called hackers. I've said it before, legitimacy is an on/off state of existence. You can't be partially-legit the same as you can't be partially-dead.

 

[McCloudDash]

A moral argument has absolutely no place in a logical argument so it's best to bow out. And semi-legit is a fake term made up by people who don't want to be called hackers. I've said it before, legitimacy is an on/off state of existence. You can't be partially-legit the same as you can't be partially-dead.

Which is why i am. And its not a fake term made up by hackers, rather a term made up for hackers who only save time. And you can be para/quadraplegic ;p

 

[SMZ]

I don't mind, as it is a simulator, not a hack in the games, some people might have other opinions, because they want to wait until its officially releases.

 

[Namtar]

Not insanity, but reduction to absurdity. Insanity is the complete opposite of logic, and the reduction to absurdity is a fundamental prinicple of logic and reasoning. Trust me on this: you cannot win the debate of whether or not this technique is valid or not. It is a valid technique which much of modern mathematics and philosophy relies on. It is essentially a formal proof by contrapositive. A demonstration of a contradiction or an absurdity through the use of the same argument and premises.

Ironically, you claim Obi's method of proof to be "insane", yet this itself is invoking a claim to a reduction to absurdity. If you feel it to be insane, then demonstrate it as opposed to simply asserting it.

I will note that I have spent the last few minutes trying to work it out in formal logic (as a proof of contrapositive), and as far as my own personal definitions are concerned I was not able to do it. Just a single step doesn't work out >_> However, an invalid argument does not mean the claim is false (and just because I couldn't work it out doesn't mean that it is invalid). I do believe Arceus is an illegal (or at least, a non-canon) pokemon and will setup a semi-formal proof here.

1. The canon universe of Pokemon may be ill-defined currently, but one certainty is that every canon pokemon must be from a canon source. Again, this is ill-defined as well (are glitches a canon source?) but it is all I need for this argument. I'll leave the other issues to future debate.

2. The Action Replay device is not a canon device or source in Nintendo nor for The Pokemon Company. (You violate your warrenty on the DS and on your game pack, and neither company offers support for AR.)

3. The only known way to get Arceus is through the Azure Flute, and The only way to get the Azure Flute right now is through the non-canon device Action Replay. I should note, I feel this is the "weakest link" of my argument, because as soon as an in-game glitch is found that allows Arceus to be captured, or as soon as Nintendo releases Arceus, then this point will no longer hold.

4. Therefore, the only known way to get Arceus is through a non-canon device, and thus Arceus is non-canon.

This makes sense for Arceus. And if glitches are "canon sources" then Shaymin wouldn't be in the same category. You don't claim that glitches are, so I won't dispute the point.

You also note that the canon universe of pokemon is ill-defined. Wouldn't defining it be a priority before dealing with individual issues on a case-by-case basis?

 

[Dragontamer]

You also note that the canon universe of pokemon is ill-defined. Wouldn't defining it be a priority before dealing with individual issues on a case-by-case basis?

There is give and take here. If I begin to define the rest of the canon universe of pokemon, then my argument is weakened as you could attack any of my premises. Strategically speaking, you only want to define your argument just enough so that the opponent can agree with your premises.

Anyway, eventually we'll reach a point where canon vs non-canon would be settled morally instead of logically, at which point you decide which one arbitrarily is a better one, just because it "feels" like it. I don't feel like this is the case with Arceus... but for say... GTS cloning and other glitch abuses, it makes sense to draw the line where it is most comfortable for the players. The logical argument would be tedious to set-up and not every premise can be agreed on.

 

[umbarsc]

There is give and take here. If I begin to define the rest of the canon universe of pokemon, then my argument is weakened as you could attack any of my premises. Strategically speaking, you only want to define your argument just enough so that the opponent can agree with your premises.

Anyway, eventually we'll reach a point where canon vs non-canon would be settled morally instead of logically, at which point you decide which one arbitrarily is a better one, just because it "feels" like it. I don't feel like this is the case with Arceus... but for say... GTS cloning and other glitch abuses, it makes sense to draw the line where it is most comfortable for the players. The logical argument would be tedious to set-up and not every premise can be agreed on.

This is what I gather from these paragraphs:

#1: I'll probably lose if I go further, so I'm not going to.
#2: You'd probably just make up crap anyways.

 

[Blue Harvest]

Obi...

Stop complaining! Their is a difference between a battle SIMULATOR, where you can spawn anything in the game in seconds without any hacking whatsoever and the actual game where having some things requires hacking.

The Arceus you "ran" from was created legit, on the battle simulator Shoddy. Shoddy is NOT pokemon D/P. It is a program created to simulate pokemon battling without having to worry about getting pokes. Although it has not yet been released, that doesn't mean it won't be.

Arceus on Shoddy - Just as legit as your Tentacruel

Arceus on D/P - Hacked

You were in an uber battle. Last time I checked, Arceus is an uber.


I'm sleepy... my post probably made no sense... ah well...

 

[merubin]

Just going to say that I love arguments telling Obi to stop complaining because it's on Shoddy not Wifi after Colin came in and said Obi's logic is perfectly sound.