Competitor and Arceus

[umbarsc]

Last night on ShoddyBattle, I was playing an uber battle against someone named Graviton. I sent out Arceus to counter his Abomasnow, and he said that Arceus is illegal and left. There was a debate between him and Colin in the chat room whether or not it was allowed. His main point: You can't get it without hacking. He compared it to Rapid Spin Tyranitar and Baton Pass Snorlax. Colin said that we shouldn't confine ourselves to Nintendo's will, and if it is legitimate within the game's coding, it should be acceptable regardless if Nintendo has felt the need for a giveaway yet or not.

This, of course, is not restricted to just Arceus (or Shaymin lol). It is a question of "Should simulators like Shoddy or Competitor confine themselves to Nintendo's will?" If Nintendo suddenly said "We intended to give Giratina Roost all along", would simulators put Roost on Giratina? If Nintendo said "What the hell is Heatran doing there? That's just a glitch", would they be forced to remove Heatran?

My stand on that is this: If it is acceptable within the game's coding, it is acceptable in simulators. That's probably sounding very dumbed-down, but as long as the Pokemon is possible to obtain, even if the means to obtain it isn't (yet, might I add), it should be allowed on simulators.

So what's your stance on it? If it isn't possible to obtain except through the use of hacking devices, should it be allowed? Do we follow the game's word or Nintendo's?

Discuss.

 

[TheMantyke]

Last night on ShoddyBattle, I was playing an uber battle against someone named Graviton.

That's obi!

he made a thread about this earlier, it led to a somewhat pointless arguement.

 

[Deck Knight]

When Nintendo starts giving out All 31 Darkrai's, Mews, Celebi's, et. al I'll start caring about what is and isn't on a pokemon simulator.

Until then I believe the term for your opponent is "whiner" (unless you brought it to a non-Uber battle).

Fact is Nintendo/Gamefreak programmed it all into the game, therefore it is fair game.

What is next, shall we condemn Mod Servers for their errance from our Japanese imperial overlords?

 

[comoesa]

the person you played was a scrub. I could unserstand if this was a wi fi battle but on shoddy grow the fuck up. Also when is competitor going to be finished. Im getting tired of collin and how lousy some of the battlers are..

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

Did Mr. Graviton/Obi tell you beforehand that Arceus use is a big no-no for him?

 

[umbarsc]

That's obi!

he made a thread about this earlier, it led to a somewhat pointless arguement.

Well, this is more about the concept of Nintendo's will vs. the game's coding, rather than "Is Arceus okay?"

 

[umbarsc]

Did Mr. Graviton/Obi tell you beforehand that Arceus use is a big no-no for him?

No, no one was in the ubers tab, so I asked for an uber battle, and he responded (after I took my name out of "Away Status" =P).

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

No, no one was in the ubers tab, so I asked for an uber battle, and he responded (after I took my name out of "Away Status" =P).

So...no before the battle ruling he would like you to follow? If not then it's not your fault really.

 

[umbarsc]

So...no before the battle ruling he would like you to follow? If not then it's not your fault really.

There were no pre-planned rules during chat, other than the fact that it was an uber battle. The standard Sleep, Species, OHKO, etc. Clauses were on, but nothing outside of those.

 

[Blue Harvest]

Bah! It will be released eventually, and its not like Missingno (coolest poke ever) a glitch, so I say use it!

Its dumb to just be Nintendo's bitch and ban stuff on a SIMULATOR.

Actuall wifi battles though I can understand banning Arceus. you need hacks to get him there.

Now if they offer Roost on Giratina then...

 

[Brawley]

In my opinion it still a pokemon, and it will be realized eventually, so why not use it?

 

[tdub13]

Bah! It will be released eventually, and its not like Missingno (coolest poke ever) a glitch, so I say use it!

Its dumb to just be Nintendo's bitch and ban stuff on a SIMULATOR.

Actuall wifi battles though I can understand banning Arceus. you need hacks to get him there.

Now if they offer Roost on Giratina then...

You say 'bah' way too much. lol. But yea, I agree with your point. If it's legal ingame, then it's legal on a battle simulator, since all you do is battle. But wifi, yea.

 

[Age of Kings]

There's a reason why simulators exist. So you don't have to hack things in-game. Here, I'd say that your use of Arceus is perfectly legal, since it is possible in-game. Just not legitimately yet, and I'm sure anyone would love to complain of the godly auto all 31's that any simulator offers, that is extremely difficult to get in-game.

 

[chopa]

I remember this conversation last night, was quite a long one

EDIT: Don't mind arceus on shoddy myself, not 100% on it in WIFI but then again I've yet to get one

 

[Odinwolf]

This goes right back to Obi's thread where he kicked a fit about "illegal" pokemon. He's a whiner. Don't worry about it. In the environment you were playing in, namely, on Shoddy Battle, Arceus is a legal part of the system. If he didn't come to an agreement with you beforehand that Arceus was not allowed, then its clearly his fault.

The point is, you are not playing Pokemon Diamond (or Pearl). You are playing Shoddy Battle, a pokemon sim. They are not the same thing. On Shoddy Battle, Arceus is allowed and there's no reason to act like a grumpy little kid and quit a match because you don't like it. You win. He loses. Colin wins. He loses.

 

[J-Man27]

You have every right to use Arceus in a simulator. He is programmed into the DS game and the simulator and perfectly legal.

 

[PakGamer]

lol what
You can't get arceus? You can't really get everything in 31/31/31/31/31 with perfect egg moves either.... Its pointless trying to ban arceus from a battle simulator.
Though a bit off the point,
You can't really get calm blisseys with 31 ivs in everything with wish either :)

 

[COalex]

How can you try to justify that? Arceus is just as impossible to get ingame as, say, a Sheer Cold Machamp or a Wonder Guard Spiritomb. If you can't legitimately get it ingame, you can't use it imo.

You can't really get everything in 31/31/31/31/31 with perfect egg moves either.... Its pointless trying to ban arceus from a battle simulator.

Yeah, you can get flawless pokes ingame, it's been done before. No matter how long you slave away, though, you still can't get Arceus.

 

[futuresuperstar]

Well, in the same way, there is technically only one version of Blissey that carries Wish, and it is not Bold, so are all the people on Shoddy Battle using a Bold WishBliss cheating?

Hint: The answer is no. It's a simulator.

 

[Sir Spanky]

There's a reason why simulators exist. So you don't have to hack things in-game.

I agree with you. As Arceus is impossible to use ingame, surely that is half the reason to allow it on Shoddy?

Technically something like Mew or Soul Dew was 'impossible' (in reason) for me in Emerald as most events never came to the UK, so does that mean everyone not from America is banned from using them in Netbattle? Of course not.

 

[COalex]

Well, in the same way, there is technically only one version of Blissey that carries Wish, and it is not Bold, so are all the people on Shoddy Battle using a Bold WishBliss cheating?

If that's true, I don't see how that's not cheating. The Smogon analysis for Raichu (http://www.smogon.com:81/dp/pokemon/raichu) says "Surf shouldn't really be bothered with—at the moment, the only Surf Raichu are Hardy," which basically concedes that the simulators have to stick with ingame limitations such as correct natures.

Technically something like Mew or Soul Dew was 'impossible' (in reason) for me in Emerald as most events never came to the UK, so does that mean everyone not from American is banned from using them in Netbattle? Of course not.

But the thing is, other people can get them ingame. Whether or not you can get it is irrelevent, as long as it's possible.

Let's assume that I somehow know that Nintendo will be giving away Spore Ninjask sometime in the near future. Does that mean people should be allowed to use Spore Ninjask on a simulator before it's released?

 

[majesty]

I think this is a matter of crybabying on Obi's part. If you are so adamantly opposed, tell your oponent beforehand and make it clear that you would rather not see it.

If you really don't wanna see Arceus go play some PBR. Shoddy is built with the coding of the game in mind, not just what nintendo has decided to force us to live with.

 

[SNX7]

I actually agree with Obi on this subject. People bitch and moan about hacking, but then they say it's ok to use Arceus because it's in the games coding, even though you have to hack to get Arceus? That seems kind of hypocritical to me.....

 

[xcfrisco]

When shoddy starts giving away actual prizes for playing pokemon, then I think the matter should really be looked into. As of right now, the only official Nintendo tournaments would DQ the garbage out of anyone using Bold WishBliss, Arceus, etc because there is no way to legally get them is in-game.

There's nothing really to be gained from the banning of these pokes, except for pride or feeling better about oneself (both are subjective), I guess. Bold WishBliss and Arceus dont unbalance their respective metagames correct? (rofl, ubers isnt balanced anyway)

And besides, to people who REALLY have gripes about legality issues, go play wi-fi with an honest set of friends. If thats too inconvenient, well looks like life sucks then.

*Ninja edit: I'd like to see what some of the people programming Competitor have to say about this.

 

[Carl]

*Ninja edit: I'd like to see what some of the people programming Competitor have to say about this.

Obviously I can't say with 100% certainty but considering I know everyone working on Competitor well enough.. Arceus will be programmed in and will be allowed in Uber battles. The simulators have always skewed slightly in favor of what's possible within the game. When Ruby and Sapphire were released, the IRC bots still had all 386 pokemon programmed in despite the fact that a good majority of them were at the time unobtainable. For a while we had two metagames, one with just pure Ruby and Sapphire pokemon and one with everything only because we weren't sure when we'd get the rest. Those that wanted to stay true to the game played 200 and those that didn't care played 386. I think the same should apply in this situation. Those that don't want to play against Arceus for whatever reason shouldn't have to... whatever, oblige and either remove it for that battle or don't battle at all. Simple as that.