Conkeldurr

Ernesto said:
Thank you, although I still don't have it clear the difference between primary and secondary effects. I always thought secondary effects to be something that could happen but wasn't certain, as opposed to always happening, I guess I was wrong...
Click to expand...

A primary affect is something that happens to you (close combat, superpower, double edge). A secondary effect is something that happens to the opponent (flinch, paralysis, burn). Moves like flame charge, bull doze, and charge beam would get boosted as well, however. I know my explanation sucked, but my examples are at least accurate! If someone would like to help me further explain this please help.
 
G-Von, what you said is one of the things that I was thinking which made a difference, since I can't think of a single move that always does something to the opponent but is not on the list (heck, even Acid Spray is there!). And although that adds up, I was in fact asking for a definition of Primary and Secondary effects outside of Pokémon, to help understand why those moves are considered s having secondary effects. And even then, Flame Charge's effect seems completely the opposite of that, one could argue that Charge Beam and Fiery Dance have secondary effects by my way of thinking (I'm excluding Bulldoze because it works like DynamicPunch, etc, so I think you made a mistake there), but Flame Charge is mentioned even when it doesn't go with either of our reasonings! Either way, I think you helped me clear a bit of my confusion, so thank you!

I don't wanna take this topic too off tracks, I know that if I have doubts I should go to the SQSA section, so I'm sorry. Either way, thanks to all of you who replied! I now have a much better understanding of how Sheer Force works
 
Jimera0 said:
Mach Punch would hit so weakly though... still might be the best option. As for the way the boosts stack, it actually depends on whether the game applies the second boost to the modified stat or the unmodified stat. In the first case you are right, but in the second case you're not. Everywhere I've read has said 1.6x boost though so I'm presuming that it was tested a long time back and found to be the later case. I'd have to check though.


Pillsbury does bring up a good point though, as the choice between Guts and Flame orb and SF and LO is not very clear cut. Let me spell out the pros and cons.

LO and SF:

Pros:
-Slightly more powerful coverage moves.
-No passive damage from using coverage moves
-No set up time for boost

Cons:
-Slightly weaker STAB moves
-Vulnerable to status
-Weaker Payback (should you chose to use it)

Guts and Flame Orb:

Pros:
- More powerful STAB moves
- Immunity to status after 1 turn on the field
- Stronger Payback (should you chose to use it)

Cons:
- Boost requires 1 turn on the field to activate
- Large amounts of constant passive damage
- Weaker coverage moves except for Payback

As you can see, it's a bit of a wash. The Flame Orb set sacrifices a LOT of survivability in return for the status immunity and more powerful STAB. Really, the choice probably just comes down to personal preference.
Click to expand...

These would be the optimal move sets for both Status Orb and Life Orb+Sheer Force:
Conkeldurr (F) @ Life Orb
Trait: Sheer Force
EVs: 232 HP / 252 Atk / 24 SDef
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Low Sweep
- Ice Punch
- Thunder Punch
- Mach Punch

Conkeldurr (M) @ Flame Orb
Trait: Guts
EVs: 224 HP / 252 Atk / 32 SDef
Brave Nature (+Atk, -Spd)
- Drain Punch
- Payback / Thunder Punch
- Ice Punch / Facade
- Mach Punch

Giving up a status immunity, especially to burn, is a pretty big deal. It really compromises his ability to take on bulky waters, especially Jellicent. Oddly enough, Flame Orb Conkeldurr has better sustainability due to getting recovery on his STAB move. Remember, coverage is just that: coverage. They aren't going to be the main moves you will throwing out there, it is your STAB that is going to be thrown out a lot. Therefore, you really don't want to go with a weaker STAB move on the Sheer Force set, in this case Drain Punch. Otherwise, you are making your most used move weaker so Low Sweep gets the nod (Force Palm+Mach Punch is illegal). I'm highlighting Facade on the Flame Orb set because it actually has only 10 less base power than a 2x Super Effective punch (140 vs 150)

With that out of the way it comes down to a burn immunity or a 10% power increase. So far the biggest things for Sheer Force have been getting the 2HKO on Slowbro with Thunder Punch while Guts has to do it with the aid of SR. That small 10% power increase is not worth losing HP recovery and the ability to avoid burn's attack drop. I really don't think it is neck and neck as I once thought >_>
 
ThePillsburyDoughBoy said:
These would be the optimal move sets for both Status Orb and Life Orb+Sheer Force:
Conkeldurr (F) @ Life Orb
Trait: Sheer Force
EVs: 232 HP / 252 Atk / 24 SDef
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Low Sweep
- Ice Punch
- Thunder Punch
- Mach Punch

Conkeldurr (M) @ Flame Orb
Trait: Guts
EVs: 224 HP / 252 Atk / 32 SDef
Brave Nature (+Atk, -Spd)
- Drain Punch
- Payback / Thunder Punch
- Ice Punch / Facade
- Mach Punch

Giving up a status immunity, especially to burn, is a pretty big deal. It really compromises his ability to take on bulky waters, especially Jellicent. Oddly enough, Flame Orb Conkeldurr has better sustainability due to getting recovery on his STAB move. Remember, coverage is just that: coverage. They aren't going to be the main moves you will throwing out there, it is your STAB that is going to be thrown out a lot. Therefore, you really don't want to go with a weaker STAB move on the Sheer Force set, in this case Drain Punch. Otherwise, you are making your most used move weaker so Low Sweep gets the nod (Force Palm+Mach Punch is illegal). I'm highlighting Facade on the Flame Orb set because it actually has only 10 less base power than a 2x Super Effective punch (140 vs 150)

With that out of the way it comes down to a burn immunity or a 10% power increase. So far the biggest things for Sheer Force have been getting the 2HKO on Slowbro with Thunder Punch while Guts has to do it with the aid of SR. That small 10% power increase is not worth losing HP recovery and the ability to avoid burn's attack drop. I really don't think it is neck and neck as I once thought >_>
Click to expand...

However, keep in mind that many people are wary of statusing Conk for the reasons you just stated. Not every Guts Conkeldurr runs a Status Orb, so most opponents would think twice before sending a WoW your way. I know I would. If you can successfully bluff Guts, then you get the extra power and a pseudo-status immunity since your opponent won't try to Burn you.
 
Guts is infinitely superior to Sheer Force.

1) Conk can switch into WoW and obtain an Atk boost.
2) Conk isn't stopped cold completely from a bulky Water using Scald.
 
Colonel M said:
Guts is infinitely superior to Sheer Force.

1) Conk can switch into WoW and obtain an Atk boost.
2) Conk isn't stopped cold completely from a bulky Water using Scald.
Click to expand...

With the new punches, conk is definitely not stopped by any bulky water, being able to 2hko the majority of them, given a sheer force boost. Keeping up a sub guarantees your safety. Check out this moveset from my rmt. This conkeldurr blows holes in teams and destroys walls given it can set up that sub.

Conkeldurr @ Leftovers
Trait: Sheer Force
EVs: 212 HP / 252 Atk / 46 Def
Adamant Nature
- ThunderPunch
- Ice Punch
- Substitute
- Drain Punch
 
What about a RestTalk one? It can abuse Rest while getting the Attack Boost from Guts, and it also lasts longer, because it gets a reliable recovery other than DP.
The bad thing about it is that the attack boost isnt forever, and you have to be sleeping to sweep

Something like:
Conkeldurr @ Life Orb
Trait: Guts
EVs: 252 Atk / 100 HP / 156 SDef
Adamant Nature
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Drain Punch
- Stone Edge/Payback
 
I know Ice Punch is a shiny new toy so everybody wants to try it out, but is it really better than Stone Edge (assuming Payback is out of the equation)?

Ice Punch has better PP and accuracy but lower power, and lets you take on (or at least threaten) Gliscor (!!), Latios, Celebi (!!), Hippowdon, and Dragonite at the expense of being completely walled by Jellicent.

Stone Edge lets you take on Dragonite, Volcarona (!!), Gyarados, and...? Am I missing anything? I just want to think out the pros and cons of these two moves when used in the Bulk Up set.
 
Danger Mouse said:
why not run ice punch AND payback?
Click to expand...

You have to give up recovery (Drain Punch) or priority (Mach Punch). Ice/Fighting/Dark works for Toxicroak because he can keep Recovery and Priority with Drain Punch and Sucker Punch.

I guess you can just get rid of Mach Punch.
 
Yeah. Otherwise, why not just run a Toxicroak to begin with? Plus, priority STAB moves are something generally used by everyone who learns them, from Absol up to Scizor. Priority is just a really nice gift to have, and Conkeldurr's Mach Punch is one of the great counters to Choice Scarf Terrakion.
 
So on the Bulk up sets, are you guys still going with payback or are you using Ice punch? I've been using Ice Punch lately and I like way more than Payback
 
I use stone edge. Conkeldur is definitely beast with bulk up. I have been using him lately in my last team and he sweeped 2 entire teams. Even without trick room it kills.
 
http://www.serebii.net/black2white2/dreampark.shtml

So Timburr is one of the pokemon that's been announced prior to the opening of Dream Park. This means we will be getting Iron Fist Conkeldurr on the 21st. What are everyone's thoughts on this?

Conkeldurr is loaded with punching moves, especially after BW2, so it should actually be a pretty nice upgrade. Notably, his main STAB in Drain Punch gets boosted up to 90 base power, while Hammer Arm becomes a decent option now as well, with 120 base power after Iron Fist. All of his elemental punches get a decent 90 base power now, and his Focus Punch gets boosted up to a massive 180 base power. Not to mention Mach Punch, which gets a tiny upgrade to 48 base power. Iron Fist sounds decent as long as you have something to take out Will-O-Wisp users at least.
 
Hm guts is already such a usefull ability though, it'd be a interesting choice if it allowed you to get some 0hkos you couldnt get without iron fist.
 
Bologo said:
http://www.serebii.net/black2white2/dreampark.shtml

So Timburr is one of the pokemon that's been announced prior to the opening of Dream Park. This means we will be getting Iron Fist Conkeldurr on the 21st. What are everyone's thoughts on this?

Conkeldurr is loaded with punching moves, especially after BW2, so it should actually be a pretty nice upgrade. Notably, his main STAB in Drain Punch gets boosted up to 90 base power, while Hammer Arm becomes a decent option now as well, with 120 base power after Iron Fist. All of his elemental punches get a decent 90 base power now, and his Focus Punch gets boosted up to a massive 180 base power. Not to mention Mach Punch, which gets a tiny upgrade to 48 base power. Iron Fist sounds decent as long as you have something to take out Will-O-Wisp users at least.
Click to expand...
I think it will be superior to Sheer Force, anyhow. Drain Punch being buffed will be pretty good, and you can definitely run an all-punching Conk without losing much coverage, barring Jellicent.
I suppose it really depends on whether you want Conk to be able to take status or not. If you already has status taken care of, Iron Fist could be useful. Otherwise, I believe Guts is the better choice.
EDIT
BurningMan said:
The thing is who would status conkeldurr unless they know for sure it's not a guts version.
Click to expand...
That's a good point. Still, its good to be able to take the status if needed.
 
Iron Fist is released!?!

SubPunch Conkeldurr would appreciate this dearly. It already packs a huge punch without it; now it will just destroy. To illustrate, Skarmory takes 58% minimum from Focus Punch! With Iron Fist, Ice Punch is an average OHKO on Tornadus-T, too. Loss of Guts is sad, but with Substitute up Conkeldurr shouldn't worry about status anyways.
 
I'm kinda curious on what people's thoughts on what Conkeldurr's optimum SubPunch set would be. I feel as though the only open option is his fourth slot (the first three being Sub/Punch/Mach), but--wait. Oh my god. He gets Thunder Punch. So it's a question of Payback/Ice Punch/Thunder Punch? What about EVs? I assume 252/252/4?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top